The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

First topic message reminder :

I stepped out and she stepped in again
I stepped out and she stepped in again
learning to dance for Lanigan's Ball


In thinking about recent goings-on at union level within the PRO12, I was reminded of the lyrics of this old song as unions, corporate interests, private investors, Welsh benefactors, and sundry money-makers make their various moves on the PRO12 dance floor.  Scotland and Ireland seem to be bashfully eyeing up the investor lads on one side of the hall, fluttering their eyelashes, whilst on the other side, the Welsh bennys (as they're affectionately known ) are making tapes and throwing shapes, whilst secretly hoping eagerly that they might get a chance to sign the WRU's card for a dance or two.  Meanwhile, the Italians dither in the middle wondering where they should be but won't tell anyone that they don't know even the music.  

But for now the band has taken a break whilst the visiting Europeans and Anglo heavies make their way onto the floor to start their version of French/Anglo hopscotch involving a number of bulky partners, foreign tap dancers, celtic coaches, and comic millionaires.

It's a good a time as any for a quick cuppa and a chance to talk about where the PRO12 is going with all the plans for expansion to US and Europe suddenly gone quiet, some league quality improvements, big weekend derbies, more neutral officials, and what else is on the horizon for upcoming changes within the PRO12.

The looming spectre of dwindling money and funding ever more expensive teams for the future seems to be the next big issue and where that is all going to come from.   Hopes of improved TV deals, better sponsors and business supporters of the league remain a distant aspiration - although the recent appointment of a commercial director to work alongside Martin Anayi on securing the best deals possible seems to be a step in the right direction.  Some are holding their whisth on that one.

Ownership and financing of the teams themselves is the most urgent and vexing issue facing the four unions operating in the PRO12.  Over the last number of months, the SRU have been making a lot of noise and some news headlines with their plans to bring in private investment to its two Scottish clubs to help meet some of the ongoing costs involved.   The SRU says it can't continue to finance the two teams at current levels of revenue and costs, and they need to bring in private investors/business to meet a substantial portion of the costs in return for a stake in one or both of the two clubs.  How much that stake would be is not clear as the SRU would want to keep their hand in the two clubs responsible for generating its line of test players, but whether that would be a 51% stake or less remains to be seen.   A voting process in late 2016 saw members give the green light to the Scottish Union to pursue this path of identifying and securing potential investment but only time will tell if it will draw in any worthwhile investors.

Italian rugby seems to lurch from one crisis to the next with the FIR having to bail out both Treviso and Zebre in recent times with substantial commitments of money.  After the last crisis, which saw a number of players leave the two clubs, it is Treviso who have fared better with the backing of Bennetton, and it is Zebre who are staring down the barrel of closure at season end once again.  A new franchise, based in Rome, is being rumoured to be on the cards with the FIR willing to put financial support into its development.   For many within the PRO12, and without, the Italian project seems to be a wasted exercise and just amounts to weekly humiliation as opposition teams pile up the points, regularly taking home try bonus points in their victories. For others, the Italian involvement is a long game and one that has to be persevered with.    Yet, the FIR is still not a shareholder in Celtic Rugby, the company which manages the PRO12 - the latest filings with the Companies Registration Office in Dublin shows that the three Celtic unions remain the founding shareholders, and critically, the beneficiaries of any financial dealing that flow through it - particularly in relation to TV broadcasting deals such as Sky Sports.  This current season, it took until Round 6 before an Italian broadcaster could be secured for covering the home matches of Treviso and Zebre, and with crowds often hovering around 1,500-2,000, this didn't raise many eyebrows.  for the foreseeable future, Italian rugby will stay within the PRO12, and the FIR will continue to be a major stakeholder/financier in the teams.

Irish rugby has been dabbling with business support for a number of years now with the provincial teams drawing in sponsorships, player salary top-ups, and increasing financial support for the various provinces through different types of schemes devised by the individual branches.   Jamie Heaslip recently re-signed with Leinster on what's likely to be his final playing contract before retirement (at age 37).  One of Ireland’s most consistent and durable players, he’s also been one of the most consistently highest paid through his IRFU central contract, and a salary top-up through his Leinster club with a business sponsorship deal with Bank of Ireland.  

But these adhoc business supports and extended sponsorships/player promotions and brand ambassadors do not fill the coffers of the branches sufficiently to grow and expand, it's sufficient only to pay the salaries of 2-3 players to keep them in place against ever higher competing offers from the TV-deal-enriched clubs in England and France.  As the IRFU pointed at the launch of its annual report last June, the IRFU cannot continue to be "the bank of last resort" for the provinces - following a €1 million plus bailout of Munster, and a €250k additional budget for each province to help them compete on player salaries.   A number of the provinces have sought quietly to persuade the IRFU to consider opening up the provinces’ branch company structures to allow private investors to take a stake in each of the provinces in return for continued investment over a period of time.  Until the last year, those overtures have been largely rebuffed with the occasional odd positive murmur about the need to keep control if such a development were to be envisaged.   It is rumoured that alongside the SRU’s current moves, the IRFU is also investigating how the branches’ structures could be altered to allow such investment in the future.  A variant of the NZRU model whereby they allowed private investors to take a stake in each of the five Super Rugby franchises is being considered, but the IRFU would want to maintain a controlling stake that gives them oversight and control in line with the current player management policy and protocols they have in place.  

As the IRFU have stated time and again, the revenues from the test game is what keeps the whole of Irish rugby afloat - interfering with or disabling that in some way is not something they would countenance.  Equally, the union recognises that costs will continue to rise in the PRO12 and wider club game with player salaries being biggest driver.   Their investment policy has switched from paying out large salaries to high-profile capped foreign players to investing in the domestic pathway development (€10m over the last 3 years) - with the emergence of some fine academy players across the provinces proving testament to this approach led by David Nucifora on behalf of the IRFU.

Nonetheless, the club game is getting bigger and more financially competitive so if a methodology can be developed to allow private investment takes its place at the table, it’s likely to happen over the next few years.  

But as two unions move across the dance floor looking for wealthy partners, the Welsh benefactors are being drawn (protestingly for some) from the other side by the WRU who have recently announced that they see the future of the Welsh game involving a marriage of both union and private investment funds.  As two unions prepare to step out, the Welsh union is preparing to step in again.   The Dragons region has been languishing in the shop window for the past year, gathering dust as various investor-type people amble up, take a poke and move off again without buying.   Martin Phillps was pushed recently in an interview to say that the WRU couldn't allow the region to fold, but he wasn't too specific in public as to what kind of support they might bring.  Equally, he was encouraged enough to say that increased union funding for the four regions seemed to be inevitable - but he didn't say what price they might extract for such investment.  Would the benefactors/shareholders be asked to move on, or move around the table to make more room for union faces to sit down?  

Whilst there are those who pine for a future whereby pure private investment and ownership rules the roost like their counterparts in England and France, the likelihood of that model being created and surviving does not seem to be on anyone's dance cards.   More likely, a marriage of convenience may be arrived at, wherein true love may never be expressed, but at least the two parties will be able to pay the mortgage together, and maybe afford a new extension or two in the near future to mix a few metaphors.

But for now, let the European hopscotch begin, and then the merry four-nation dance can begin again.

All together now:

Sixteen long years we spent in Dub-i-lin
Sixteen long years doin' nothing at all
Sixteen long years we spent in Dub-i-lin
Learning to dance at the PRO12 ball.

They stepped out, and they stepped in again......

marty2086 wrote:

No more can mean none at all

FFS. That's desperate.

Munchkin wrote:

Simon Thomas is a click-bate clown and a poor journo.

Nice attempt at deflection though. Now, provide a primary source for your nonsense claim that the Regions provide £5m of the PRO12 pot, and not the ramblings of some twitter mad cheap journo. And don't run away this time.

Yeah, I'm hoping that you have Thomas and Howell mixed up. I'm still clinging to that hope, otherwise you're engaged in a desperate face saving exercise that is only fooling yourself.

marty2086 wrote:Its not like there wasn't threats of cutting funding from PRL and no agreement in place for funding after this season with the RFU

'One senior Championship club source claimed that unless they accepted the deal, the funding would be stopped after next season.'

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union/2016/07/26/exclusion-from-new-rfu-deal-threatens-future-of-championship-rug/

Martyn, Martyn. Check the date of that link. Then learn that the additional payment from PRL for the loss of the play off is likely to be accepted.

Much has happened since the date of the article, Martyn. Do keep up.

PhilBB wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

No more can mean none at all

FFS. That's desperate.

Nice to have your quality and in depth analysis, that's the basis for most of your arguments its not yours so its rubbish, desperate, pathetic etc etc

PhilBB wrote:

marty2086 wrote:Its not like there wasn't threats of cutting funding from PRL and no agreement in place for funding after this season with the RFU

'One senior Championship club source claimed that unless they accepted the deal, the funding would be stopped after next season.'

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union/2016/07/26/exclusion-from-new-rfu-deal-threatens-future-of-championship-rug/

Martyn, Martyn. Check the date of that link. Then learn that the additional payment from PRL for the loss of the play off is likely to be accepted.

Much has happened since the date of the article, Martyn. Do keep up.

Well hard not to accept it when theres a gun to your head

Now who's desperate, ignoring the threats to the Championship clubs and saying it looks likely that they have worked

Typical

marty2086 wrote:

PhilBB wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

No more can mean none at all

FFS. That's desperate.

Nice to have your quality and in depth analysis, that's the basis for most of your arguments its not yours so its rubbish, desperate, pathetic etc etc

Your desire to ruin the English language in an attempt to save face is worrying.

On the subject of the Pro12 - are there plans to get the final somewhere different? It always seems to be in Ireland, and on the occasion Scotland. Have they said that they hope to get it to Wales and Italy?

marty2086 wrote:

Well hard not to accept it when theres a gun to your head

Now who's desperate, ignoring the threats to the Championship clubs and saying it looks likely that they have worked

Typical

What are you on about?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union/2016/11/10/rfu-director-nigel-melville-outlines-vision-to-unlock-academy-ta/

"Negotiations for increased central funding are running in parallel to Melville’s negotiations. Telegraph Sport understands that Championship clubs are edging closer to abandoning the controversial promotion play-offs and reverting to the first-past-the-post system, which would be welcomed by Premiership Rugby"

RugbyFan100 wrote:On the subject of the Pro12 - are there plans to get the final somewhere different? It always seems to be in Ireland, and on the occasion Scotland. Have they said that they hope to get it to Wales and Italy?

Cardiff's rather busy with the Champions League final this year.

PhilBB wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

PhilBB wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

No more can mean none at all

FFS. That's desperate.

Nice to have your quality and in depth analysis, that's the basis for most of your arguments its not yours so its rubbish, desperate, pathetic etc etc

Your desire to ruin the English language in an attempt to save face is worrying.

Pathetic as ever I see

PhilBB wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

Well hard not to accept it when theres a gun to your head

Now who's desperate, ignoring the threats to the Championship clubs and saying it looks likely that they have worked

Typical

What are you on about?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union/2016/11/10/rfu-director-nigel-melville-outlines-vision-to-unlock-academy-ta/

"Negotiations for increased central funding are running in parallel to Melville’s negotiations. Telegraph Sport understands that Championship clubs are edging closer to abandoning the controversial promotion play-offs and reverting to the first-past-the-post system, which would be welcomed by Premiership Rugby"

How exactly does that say Im wrong? So they threat to their funding has disappeared now they are talking to Melville about his proposals? Its almost as if they two were linked

RugbyFan100 wrote:On the subject of the Pro12 - are there plans to get the final somewhere different? It always seems to be in Ireland, and on the occasion Scotland. Have they said that they hope to get it to Wales and Italy?

Comes down to a bidding process and ground quality.

Only 5 team grounds meet the minimum capacity requirement and 3 of those are in Ireland.
Ospreys have not yet bid to hold the final I believe - possibly an issue with not having sole rights to the ground.

Hence it has only been in Ireland and Edinburgh so far.

This method has only been in operation since 2014-15 before that at the ground of the team top if the league which often as not has been an Irish team.

PhilBB wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

Simon Thomas is a click-bate clown and a poor journo.

Nice attempt at deflection though. Now, provide a primary source for your nonsense claim that the Regions provide £5m of the PRO12 pot, and not the ramblings of some twitter mad cheap journo. And don't run away this time.

Yeah, I'm hoping that you have Thomas and Howell mixed up. I'm still clinging to that hope, otherwise you're engaged in a desperate face saving exercise that is only fooling yourself.

Goodness, almost a week to reply and this is the best you can do. You should stick to chasing goats.

geoff999rugby wrote:

RugbyFan100 wrote:On the subject of the Pro12 - are there plans to get the final somewhere different? It always seems to be in Ireland, and on the occasion Scotland. Have they said that they hope to get it to Wales and Italy?

Comes down to a bidding process and ground quality.

Only 5 team grounds meet the minimum capacity requirement and 3 of those are in Ireland.
Ospreys have not yet bid to hold the final I believe - possibly an issue with not having sole rights to the ground.

Hence it has only been in Ireland and Edinburgh so far.

This method has only been in operation since 2014-15 before that at the ground of the team top if the league which often as not has been an Irish team.

Thanks. What are the minimum capacity requirements?

18k, but bidding teams can elect other stadia, such as Murrayfield, CAP or the Aviva.

So which are the only 5 grounds that meet those requirements?

RugbyFan100 wrote:So which are the only 5 grounds that meet those requirements?

Without searching on Google, I believe Ulster, Leinster, Munster, Cardiff, Ospreys and Edinburgh home grounds all qualify. So that would be 6.

Munchkin wrote:

RugbyFan100 wrote:So which are the only 5 grounds that meet those requirements?

Without searching on Google, I believe Ulster, Leinster, Munster, Cardiff, Ospreys and Edinburgh home grounds all qualify. So that would be 6.

So plus the Principality Stadium and Aviva stadium that makes 7?

Ireland - 4
Scotland - 1
Wales - 2

Are a club hosting it this year? Or is it the Irish Union?

RugbyFan100 wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

RugbyFan100 wrote:So which are the only 5 grounds that meet those requirements?

Without searching on Google, I believe Ulster, Leinster, Munster, Cardiff, Ospreys and Edinburgh home grounds all qualify. So that would be 6.

So plus the Principality Stadium and Aviva stadium that makes 7?

Ireland - 4
Scotland - 1
Wales - 2

Are a club hosting it this year? Or is it the Irish Union?

If you're counting national stadia, that would make it 9.

It's always a Club/Region/Province bid.

Munchkin wrote:

It's always a Club/Region/Province bid.

So who's is it? And who's was it last year?

RugbyFan100 wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

RugbyFan100 wrote:So which are the only 5 grounds that meet those requirements?

Without searching on Google, I believe Ulster, Leinster, Munster, Cardiff, Ospreys and Edinburgh home grounds all qualify. So that would be 6.

So plus the Principality Stadium and Aviva stadium that makes 7?

Ireland - 4
Scotland - 1
Wales - 2

Are a club hosting it this year? Or is it the Irish Union?

No the Cardiff Regional ground doesn't qualify, the Cardiff one is the Principality Stadium although Cardiff City Football ground would do

RugbyFan100 wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

It's always a Club/Region/Province bid.

So who's is it? And who's was it last year?

It was Glasgow and, I think, it's Leinster. Not 100% on that.

Munchkin wrote:

RugbyFan100 wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

It's always a Club/Region/Province bid.

So who's is it? And who's was it last year?

It was Glasgow and, I think, it's Leinster. Not 100% on that.

Ah right. I guess the chances of it ever being in Wales are slim.

Munchkin wrote:

RugbyFan100 wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

It's always a Club/Region/Province bid.

So who's is it? And who's was it last year?

It was Glasgow and, I think, it's Leinster. Not 100% on that.

Edinburgh was last year at Murrayfield, Glasgow lost out the previous year to Ulster

marty2086 wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

RugbyFan100 wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

It's always a Club/Region/Province bid.

So who's is it? And who's was it last year?

It was Glasgow and, I think, it's Leinster. Not 100% on that.

Edinburgh was last year at Murrayfield, Glasgow lost out the previous year to Ulster

Was it Edinburgh that won the bid? Pretty sure I read Glasgow, but not 100% certain.

RugbyFan100 wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

RugbyFan100 wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

It's always a Club/Region/Province bid.

So who's is it? And who's was it last year?

It was Glasgow and, I think, it's Leinster. Not 100% on that.

Ah right. I guess the chances of it ever being in Wales are slim.

I think Wales have a fair chance, but the Regions need to enter a bid first. I think it will go to Wales if they do.

Munchkin wrote:

RugbyFan100 wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

RugbyFan100 wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

It's always a Club/Region/Province bid.

So who's is it? And who's was it last year?

It was Glasgow and, I think, it's Leinster. Not 100% on that.

Ah right. I guess the chances of it ever being in Wales are slim.

I think Wales have a fair chance, but the Regions need to enter a bid first. I think it will go to Wales if they do.

I know the first season, our board said we would watch how things progresses, cannot remember why we didn't apply for this seasons finale, with more money now coming into our coffers, and we have a realistic chance of making the playoffs, perhaps it will be sooner than later.

wayne wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

RugbyFan100 wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

RugbyFan100 wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

It's always a Club/Region/Province bid.

So who's is it? And who's was it last year?

It was Glasgow and, I think, it's Leinster. Not 100% on that.

Ah right. I guess the chances of it ever being in Wales are slim.

I think Wales have a fair chance, but the Regions need to enter a bid first. I think it will go to Wales if they do.

I know the first season, our board said we would watch how things progresses, cannot remember why we didn't apply for this seasons finale, with more money now coming into our coffers, and we have a realistic chance of making the playoffs, perhaps it will be sooner than later.  

Think I read part of the problem is the Regions have to guarantee money to the Pro 12, maybe not willing to risk it

I would love to see Italy get it, after being promised the Hcup and not getting it.

I think if they could get the Champions cup final and to build on it the Pro 12 final the following year it would really help them boost the profile of Rugby in Italy.

Theres always plenty of criticism about Italy in the 6 Nations, and Zebre, Treviso in the Pro 12, but what are we really doing to help grow Rugby union in Italy?

Some will say its down to the FIR to grow it in Italy, but I do think the other 6 nations Unions, Esp the Pro 12, 4 can help more as its in everyones interests to have an improved Italian team.

Esp if the Pro 12 are looking to try and entice US and Canadian team to join they want to point at Treviso and Zebre and highlight how they assisted their development, not that they let them join and left them to it.

Getting the Champions cup final and Pro 12 final will help, and is something we can help with.

What else can we do to assist them in realistic terms?

marty2086 wrote:

wayne wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

RugbyFan100 wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

RugbyFan100 wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

It's always a Club/Region/Province bid.

So who's is it? And who's was it last year?

It was Glasgow and, I think, it's Leinster. Not 100% on that.

Ah right. I guess the chances of it ever being in Wales are slim.

I think Wales have a fair chance, but the Regions need to enter a bid first. I think it will go to Wales if they do.

I know the first season, our board said we would watch how things progresses, cannot remember why we didn't apply for this seasons finale, with more money now coming into our coffers, and we have a realistic chance of making the playoffs, perhaps it will be sooner than later.  

Think I read part of the problem is the Regions have to guarantee money to the Pro 12, maybe not willing to risk it

Marty, yes it was monetary, and when you cannot half fill the Stadium for the vast majority of matches, if you don't think you have much of a chance of reaching the last 4, so at least you can drag out your core vote. This IMO is now a thing of the past for a few years You might see us applying in the next few years.

Kingshu wrote:I would love to see Italy get it, after being promised the Hcup and not getting it.

I think if they could get the Champions cup final and to build on it the Pro 12 final the following year it would really help them boost the profile of Rugby in Italy.

Theres always plenty of criticism about Italy in the 6 Nations, and Zebre, Treviso in the Pro 12, but what are we really doing to help grow Rugby union in Italy?

Some will say its down to the FIR to grow it in Italy, but I do think the other 6 nations Unions, Esp the Pro 12, 4 can help more as its in everyones interests to have an improved Italian team.

Esp if the Pro 12 are looking to try and entice US and Canadian team to join they want to point at Treviso and Zebre and highlight how they assisted their development, not that they let them join and left them to it.  

Getting the Champions cup final and Pro 12 final will help, and is something we can help with.

What else can we do to assist them in realistic terms?

I would like to see the final in Italy, although if Wales enter a very good bid it would be hard to argue they are not more deserving than Italy.

There's a lot of uncertainly with the Italian sides, with thoughts of one being scrapped and a new one in Rome. If they do set up in Rome then a final being held in that stadium at the end of their first season would be a great boost for Italian rugby.

Other than the PRO12 giving them a final, and possibly helping with marketing throughout the season. I don't think there's much more can be offered. It's all down to budget, and how much PRO12 can invest, I guess.
Any financial burden shouldn't be placed on the other sides. It's tough enough keeping up with the AP and T14 sides without having to prop up Italian sides.

Under the leadership of O'Shea I'm hoping the fortunes of the two Italian sides will change for the better, over the next couple of years. That change has to happen or their place within PRO12 will be seriously at risk.

wayne wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

wayne wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

RugbyFan100 wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

RugbyFan100 wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

It's always a Club/Region/Province bid.

So who's is it? And who's was it last year?

It was Glasgow and, I think, it's Leinster. Not 100% on that.

Ah right. I guess the chances of it ever being in Wales are slim.

I think Wales have a fair chance, but the Regions need to enter a bid first. I think it will go to Wales if they do.

I know the first season, our board said we would watch how things progresses, cannot remember why we didn't apply for this seasons finale, with more money now coming into our coffers, and we have a realistic chance of making the playoffs, perhaps it will be sooner than later.  

Think I read part of the problem is the Regions have to guarantee money to the Pro 12, maybe not willing to risk it

Marty, yes it was monetary, and when you cannot half fill the Stadium for the vast majority of matches, if you don't think you have much of a chance of reaching the last 4, so at least you can drag out your core vote. This IMO is now a thing of the past for a few years You might see us applying in the next few years.

With the WRU and PRW working towards a better relationship, and addressing current financial issue's of the Regions, more money will hopefully be available for them in the near future - more financial security. Hopefully that will ease any fear of hosting a final.

I think the unions (Pro 12) could contribute to a trouble shooting coaching team or Consultant (like the role Graham Henry played with Leinster)

This team/person would focus on the bottom 3/4 teams of the year before, Benetton Treviso, Zebre, Newport Gwent Dragons maybe Edinburg. They would be there for pre season,and advise on various systems etc and act as consultant though out the year.

I believe a figure like Graham Henry, Jake White someone highly respected and has already acheived a lot, as Head coaches would not alway be like Leo and willing to take on someone elses views, unless they already have that respect, (it is has to be someone who has already won at the very top)

Not only would this help improve the bottom teams, which improves the league, as a competition, it also makes th eleague look more attractive to those wishing to join.

wayne wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

wayne wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

RugbyFan100 wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

RugbyFan100 wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

It's always a Club/Region/Province bid.

So who's is it? And who's was it last year?

It was Glasgow and, I think, it's Leinster. Not 100% on that.

Ah right. I guess the chances of it ever being in Wales are slim.

I think Wales have a fair chance, but the Regions need to enter a bid first. I think it will go to Wales if they do.

I know the first season, our board said we would watch how things progresses, cannot remember why we didn't apply for this seasons finale, with more money now coming into our coffers, and we have a realistic chance of making the playoffs, perhaps it will be sooner than later.  

Think I read part of the problem is the Regions have to guarantee money to the Pro 12, maybe not willing to risk it

Marty, yes it was monetary, and when you cannot half fill the Stadium for the vast majority of matches, if you don't think you have much of a chance of reaching the last 4, so at least you can drag out your core vote. This IMO is now a thing of the past for a few years You might see us applying in the next few years.

Home teams reaching the final is irrelevant, Edinburgh dont fill Murrayfield and had little hope of reaching the final yet hosted it last year and got over 34k with two Irish teams playing

marty2086 wrote:

wayne wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

wayne wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

RugbyFan100 wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

RugbyFan100 wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

It's always a Club/Region/Province bid.

So who's is it? And who's was it last year?

It was Glasgow and, I think, it's Leinster. Not 100% on that.

Ah right. I guess the chances of it ever being in Wales are slim.

I think Wales have a fair chance, but the Regions need to enter a bid first. I think it will go to Wales if they do.

I know the first season, our board said we would watch how things progresses, cannot remember why we didn't apply for this seasons finale, with more money now coming into our coffers, and we have a realistic chance of making the playoffs, perhaps it will be sooner than later.  

Think I read part of the problem is the Regions have to guarantee money to the Pro 12, maybe not willing to risk it

Marty, yes it was monetary, and when you cannot half fill the Stadium for the vast majority of matches, if you don't think you have much of a chance of reaching the last 4, so at least you can drag out your core vote. This IMO is now a thing of the past for a few years You might see us applying in the next few years.

Home teams reaching the final is irrelevant, Edinburgh dont fill Murrayfield and had little hope of reaching the final yet hosted it last year and got over 34k with two Irish teams playing

Sorry it is not irrelevant, if it had been Connacht v any of the Welsh teams, it would have been nowhere near 34000.

wayne wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

wayne wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

wayne wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

RugbyFan100 wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

RugbyFan100 wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

It's always a Club/Region/Province bid.

So who's is it? And who's was it last year?

It was Glasgow and, I think, it's Leinster. Not 100% on that.

Ah right. I guess the chances of it ever being in Wales are slim.

I think Wales have a fair chance, but the Regions need to enter a bid first. I think it will go to Wales if they do.

I know the first season, our board said we would watch how things progresses, cannot remember why we didn't apply for this seasons finale, with more money now coming into our coffers, and we have a realistic chance of making the playoffs, perhaps it will be sooner than later.  

Think I read part of the problem is the Regions have to guarantee money to the Pro 12, maybe not willing to risk it

Marty, yes it was monetary, and when you cannot half fill the Stadium for the vast majority of matches, if you don't think you have much of a chance of reaching the last 4, so at least you can drag out your core vote. This IMO is now a thing of the past for a few years You might see us applying in the next few years.

Home teams reaching the final is irrelevant, Edinburgh dont fill Murrayfield and had little hope of reaching the final yet hosted it last year and got over 34k with two Irish teams playing

Sorry it is not irrelevant, if it had been Connacht v any of the Welsh teams, it would have been nowhere near 34000.

Edinburgh probably wouldn't have drawn that crowd against Connacht but they gambled on it, the regions simply are not willing to gamble on it

Just to add, my brother in law and I have decided if we get to either of the 2 main competitions Final this season. We'll be attending at least one of them.

Kingshu wrote:I think the unions (Pro 12) could contribute to a trouble shooting coaching team or Consultant (like the role Graham Henry played with Leinster)

This team/person would focus on the bottom 3/4 teams of the year before, Benetton Treviso, Zebre, Newport Gwent Dragons maybe Edinburg. They would be there for pre season,and advise on various systems etc and act as consultant though out the year.

I believe a figure like Graham Henry, Jake White someone highly respected and has already acheived a lot, as Head coaches would not alway be like Leo and willing to take on someone elses views, unless they already have that respect, (it is has to be someone who has already won at the very top)

Not only would this help improve the bottom teams, which improves the league, as a competition, it also makes th eleague look more attractive to those wishing to join.

I can see the positives of it, but fire-fighting shouldn't be a long-term solution.

It's only the Italians that such a solution should apply. The Scots are sorting themselves out, as are the Welsh.

The cost of running the coaching team would be cost prohibitive, methinks. It would probably cost around £500k, which is too much just to keep the Italians afloat. Better to hire a consultant to advise on the Italian structure, although that may be a work in progress anyway. O'Shea will almost certainly want to make changes.

Munchkin wrote:

Kingshu wrote:I think the unions (Pro 12) could contribute to a trouble shooting coaching team or Consultant (like the role Graham Henry played with Leinster)

This team/person would focus on the bottom 3/4 teams of the year before, Benetton Treviso, Zebre, Newport Gwent Dragons maybe Edinburg. They would be there for pre season,and advise on various systems etc and act as consultant though out the year.

I believe a figure like Graham Henry, Jake White someone highly respected and has already acheived a lot, as Head coaches would not alway be like Leo and willing to take on someone elses views, unless they already have that respect, (it is has to be someone who has already won at the very top)

Not only would this help improve the bottom teams, which improves the league, as a competition, it also makes th eleague look more attractive to those wishing to join.

I can see the positives of it, but fire-fighting shouldn't be a long-term solution.

It's only the Italians that such a solution should apply. The Scots are sorting themselves out, as are the Welsh.

The cost of running the coaching team would be cost prohibitive, methinks. It would probably cost around £500k, which is too much just to keep the Italians afloat. Better to hire a consultant to advise on the Italian structure, although that may be a work in progress anyway. O'Shea will almost certainly want to make changes.

I think O'Shea will have a big impact as well. But I do think it is a worthwhile investment. £50,000 per team (either Union pay or split between team and union) would generate £600,000 for it.

The teams/Unions may ask why they should contribute, but its fair to say the worse teams in the league are not much of a draw for the home teams, and the lowest attendance in normally when Dragons/Zebre/Treviso walk into town. With them being more competitive these fixtures may become more attractive, and it only takes attracting an extra 850 fans to these games to make it break even.

Also if making eyes across the pond, this looks like a fantastic set up.
The US/Canada may like the idea that they can put a young US/Canadian in charge of a domestic team and he will be supported to grow to be eventually national coach, also that the new teams they enter would receive support to put structures/coaching etc in place and fast track their planned rise.

If it was to happen I think it would be the IRFU, WRU and SRU that would pay for it, and I'm not convinced all would be willing to invest £200k each. If the league is to expand then that cost might rise a fair bit. On the other hand; if costs can be covered by rising attendance then it might be viable. Big "if" though, and how much would be invested before a return on that investment is realised?

I like the idea, and very much the ideal, but would have concerns about value for money. I would also be concerned that the Italians would view that investment as an alternative to investing more in their own coaching structure, although I guess caveats can be put in place to prevent that happening.

A good broadcasting deal would go a long way in helping the Italians, but that probably putting the cart before the horse.

Munchkin wrote:If it was to happen I think it would be the IRFU, WRU and SRU that would pay for it, and I'm not convinced all would be willing to invest £200k each. If the league is to expand then that cost might rise a fair bit. On the other hand; if costs can be covered by rising attendance then it might be viable. Big "if" though, and how much would be invested before a return on that investment is realised?

I like the idea, and very much the ideal, but would have concerns about value for money. I would also be concerned that the Italians would view that investment as an alternative to investing more in their own coaching structure, although I guess caveats can be put in place to prevent that happening.

A good broadcasting deal would go a long way in helping the Italians, but that probably putting the cart before the horse.

I always go back to the fact that Italy has a similar population to France, if that can be tapped into the potential is limitless when it comes to tv, crowds, sponsors etc

marty2086 wrote:

Munchkin wrote:If it was to happen I think it would be the IRFU, WRU and SRU that would pay for it, and I'm not convinced all would be willing to invest £200k each. If the league is to expand then that cost might rise a fair bit. On the other hand; if costs can be covered by rising attendance then it might be viable. Big "if" though, and how much would be invested before a return on that investment is realised?

I like the idea, and very much the ideal, but would have concerns about value for money. I would also be concerned that the Italians would view that investment as an alternative to investing more in their own coaching structure, although I guess caveats can be put in place to prevent that happening.

A good broadcasting deal would go a long way in helping the Italians, but that probably putting the cart before the horse.

I always go back to the fact that Italy has a similar population to France, if that can be tapped into the potential is limitless when it comes to tv, crowds, sponsors etc

They have a big population, and if Italian rugby can sort itself out and become competitive, the masses might switch on to rugby union. That would be a huge bonus for PRO12, 6N's and world rugby. If they do set up in Rome, I can envisage a spike in interest. I believe that would be a great move for them.

Munchkin wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

Munchkin wrote:If it was to happen I think it would be the IRFU, WRU and SRU that would pay for it, and I'm not convinced all would be willing to invest £200k each. If the league is to expand then that cost might rise a fair bit. On the other hand; if costs can be covered by rising attendance then it might be viable. Big "if" though, and how much would be invested before a return on that investment is realised?

I like the idea, and very much the ideal, but would have concerns about value for money. I would also be concerned that the Italians would view that investment as an alternative to investing more in their own coaching structure, although I guess caveats can be put in place to prevent that happening.

A good broadcasting deal would go a long way in helping the Italians, but that probably putting the cart before the horse.

I always go back to the fact that Italy has a similar population to France, if that can be tapped into the potential is limitless when it comes to tv, crowds, sponsors etc

They have a big population, and if Italian rugby can sort itself out and become competitive, the masses might switch on to rugby union. That would be a huge bonus for PRO12, 6N's and world rugby. If they do set up in Rome, I can envisage a spike in interest. I believe that would be a great move for them.

Unfortunately it takes success to build the interest that we all want for them, the move to Rome long term may well be the answer but short term it will probably be a step backwards

Regarding earlier comments about split of TV revenues, the disparity between the monies paid by individual broadcasters is partly explained by the number of teams and the number of matches in the territory and the budget available to the terrestrial broadcaster.

BBC NI has only one team in its territory, and gets about 9 home matches a season with some shared with Sky or other terrestrial broadcasters depending on opposition.

BBC Wales/S4C have a combined annual budget of approx £160m - about four times greater than what TG4, a niche broadcaster in Ireland, has. BBCW and S4C have four teams in their region and they buy a lot more home games for broadcast. BBC Wales have always been a strong supporter of the PRO12/Celtic League and have been the most committed over the last 10-15 years. BBC Wales produces programming for S4C, and part of this agreement is PRO12 rugby matches. BBC Wales also has the BBC network to rely on for some of its programme output, and therefore, can commit more to its domestic programming than say a commercial niche broadcaster can who will use a combination of home-produced programming, mixed with bought-in acquisition programmes such as comedies, documentaries, soaps, etc.

The amount the broadcaster pays is linked directly to the number of matches they will have exclusive rights to, and to ones they share or are the secondary broadcaster. Highlights, online, etc also play a part in determining the agreed sum.

The amount the broadcasters pay for the rights seems to vary from source to source. Prior to the Sky deal, it was rumoured that BBC W paid around £5m, but that this would reduce with Sky coming on board as the primary broadcast partner for the league, and less games available to broadcast.

Estimates for total value of PRO12 TV rights would appear to be in the £11m-12m range. Of which Sky contributes approx half - about £5.5m. This Sky revenue is split amongst the three shareholders in Celtic Rugby - IRFU, WRU and SRU. FIR is still not a shareholder in Celtic Rugby Ltd given its uncertain position about TV revenues/rights. Thus any monies coming in to PRO from Sky are split by number of teams in each union - 4+4+2. Terrestrial monies are shared proportionately by the territory for which they're paid for. Thus BBCW pays for Welsh region home games, the majority of these monies flow to the WRU who pay it on to the regions.

BBC Wales values Welsh rugby matches far more than its counterparts do in Scotland, Northern Ireland or Republic of Ireland, and pays for more matches and more per match. It has the budget and market position to do so.

TG4 is a bit part player compared to public service broadcaster, RTE, or commercial station, TV3. It pays less than a million a year to show the home games from Munster, Leinster and Connacht that Sky have not selected already for its primary slots on Saturday. Friday evening rugby at 7pm is not peak time viewing - post 9.30pm is much better, as are Saturday daytime/early evening time slots.

The emergence of EirSport or TV3 as stations in Ireland that are now interested in pitching for rugby (TV3 had RWC 2015 and EirSport has won Six Nations from 2019) should change things up a bit. The question is whether they are competitors for Irish TV rights only, or as potential primary broadcasters for the whole competition remains to be seen.

For what it's worth, here's some on the record facts regarding Irish rugby TV rights around the Six Nations from 2015.

- Irish Rugby receives approximately €14m in TV revenue from the 6 Nations.
- RTE pays €2.5m for the Irish broadcast rights.
- All 6 Nations TV revenues have increased, except in Ireland where RTÉ cut rights fees by 22% from €3.1m to just €2.5m per annum.

So, from Irish rugby fans point of view, we know that:
RTE dropped out of the fight to pitch for H Cup matches when Sky got involved.
RTE dropped out of the fight to pitch for PRO12 matches when Sky got involved.
RTE lost the fight to pitch for 6 Nations matches when Eirsport got involved.
Will RTE re-join the fight for PRO12 now that it's lost the battle for 6N but may still have the budget available?

Pot don't forget that BBC Wales also shows highlights for the league every round, that will also pump up what they pay. Fair play to them for doing it, its just a shame BBC Sport as a whole aren't getting involved especially as sports fans often complain about the lack of sport on BBC.

Aren't RTE still cutting their budget by huge sums? So maybe they won't have any money to spend on the Pro 12

marty2086 wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

Munchkin wrote:If it was to happen I think it would be the IRFU, WRU and SRU that would pay for it, and I'm not convinced all would be willing to invest £200k each. If the league is to expand then that cost might rise a fair bit. On the other hand; if costs can be covered by rising attendance then it might be viable. Big "if" though, and how much would be invested before a return on that investment is realised?

I like the idea, and very much the ideal, but would have concerns about value for money. I would also be concerned that the Italians would view that investment as an alternative to investing more in their own coaching structure, although I guess caveats can be put in place to prevent that happening.

A good broadcasting deal would go a long way in helping the Italians, but that probably putting the cart before the horse.

I always go back to the fact that Italy has a similar population to France, if that can be tapped into the potential is limitless when it comes to tv, crowds, sponsors etc

They have a big population, and if Italian rugby can sort itself out and become competitive, the masses might switch on to rugby union. That would be a huge bonus for PRO12, 6N's and world rugby. If they do set up in Rome, I can envisage a spike in interest. I believe that would be a great move for them.

Unfortunately it takes success to build the interest that we all want for them, the move to Rome long term may well be the answer but short term it will probably be a step backwards

The 50,000 per team does seam like a good investment, I think that it is a bit of wishful thinking that something like this would ever be put in place, but I believe thats its this supportive outside the box thinking that the Pro 12 needs to implement to differentiate itself from the other Leagues, to increase competition, and look more attractive to potential sides joining.

A side in Rome does have massive potential, but it has to be successful, look at Glasgow (untill recently) and Edinburgh, they are good comparisons, as they are both based in Big Cities but Rugby isn't that popular. Glasgow were getting crowds of about 2500/3000 when at Firhill, after they one the Pro 12 and moved stadium, it rose to about 7000, which which is good but still isn't that impressive for a city that size. For a rugby team to capture the crowds, they will need to be good from the start, and having the European cup or Pro 12 final would really help advertise that they are there.

Maybe the Pro 12 assign a Marketing team/person, and a budget to help promote the Pro 12 in Italy (again this may been seen as the clubs/FIR role to promote the clubs in Italy) but it is also in the Pro 12's interests to promote itself, and could result in increased sponsorship, for the whole league.

You say its outside the box thinking but I think its long term planning, yes you may create two teams who may well knock you down the league but their success may well generate large sums of money for everyone that may well help keep them afloat or help everyone strengthen.

The idea of helping another team or business out is seen by too many as being counter productive that's the problem.

Another option I would love to see is Red Bull to be approached with the aim of assisting the Pacific islands and Georgia, and entering a team.

Brussels has shown to have had an interest in Rugby with Stade francais having planned to play a game there a few years ago.

I think the 11,000 Edmond Machtens Stadium in Brussels, has only a division 4 or lower team in it after the original team folded and could be ideal.

A team like Red Bull Brussels, set up with some rules like only PI, Georgian and Belgium players plus 5 others, would go a long way in assisting these unions. As they would get greater player release. The restrictions would prevent a Toulon like club. Red Bull get a high profile team, that will generate positives.

Some may think why would Red Bull put money in a rugby team, but they have for football in RB Leipzig, New York Red Bulls, FC Red Bull Salzburg, Red Bull Brasil, Red Bull Ghana also some ice Hockey teams and may fancy a move into rugby

RB Leipzig is creating some bad press as it appears the old guard of Germany clubs do not like the manufactured RB team.

A high profile rugby team, which is assisting Tier 2 nations, is a very positive thing. There are not traditionalists in the Pro 12 who would be upset about a new team, the regions are new (2003), Zebre, Arioni, and a maybe a new Roman team, so cannot have the plastic team thing thrown at them, and there is Benetton Treviso, already so cannot get flack for owning a team. They can gain a large area of support in Belgium without any conflict, and is there are US/Canadian, Spanish etc teams in future this could be a huge market.

The Guinness Atlantic Rugby Championship

Link: PRO12EXPANSION?

Interesting.

It's very intresting and I quite like the concept of the two conference system, but I.just can't see it working logistically.