The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

First topic message reminder :

I stepped out and she stepped in again
I stepped out and she stepped in again
learning to dance for Lanigan's Ball


In thinking about recent goings-on at union level within the PRO12, I was reminded of the lyrics of this old song as unions, corporate interests, private investors, Welsh benefactors, and sundry money-makers make their various moves on the PRO12 dance floor.  Scotland and Ireland seem to be bashfully eyeing up the investor lads on one side of the hall, fluttering their eyelashes, whilst on the other side, the Welsh bennys (as they're affectionately known ) are making tapes and throwing shapes, whilst secretly hoping eagerly that they might get a chance to sign the WRU's card for a dance or two.  Meanwhile, the Italians dither in the middle wondering where they should be but won't tell anyone that they don't know even the music.  

But for now the band has taken a break whilst the visiting Europeans and Anglo heavies make their way onto the floor to start their version of French/Anglo hopscotch involving a number of bulky partners, foreign tap dancers, celtic coaches, and comic millionaires.

It's a good a time as any for a quick cuppa and a chance to talk about where the PRO12 is going with all the plans for expansion to US and Europe suddenly gone quiet, some league quality improvements, big weekend derbies, more neutral officials, and what else is on the horizon for upcoming changes within the PRO12.

The looming spectre of dwindling money and funding ever more expensive teams for the future seems to be the next big issue and where that is all going to come from.   Hopes of improved TV deals, better sponsors and business supporters of the league remain a distant aspiration - although the recent appointment of a commercial director to work alongside Martin Anayi on securing the best deals possible seems to be a step in the right direction.  Some are holding their whisth on that one.

Ownership and financing of the teams themselves is the most urgent and vexing issue facing the four unions operating in the PRO12.  Over the last number of months, the SRU have been making a lot of noise and some news headlines with their plans to bring in private investment to its two Scottish clubs to help meet some of the ongoing costs involved.   The SRU says it can't continue to finance the two teams at current levels of revenue and costs, and they need to bring in private investors/business to meet a substantial portion of the costs in return for a stake in one or both of the two clubs.  How much that stake would be is not clear as the SRU would want to keep their hand in the two clubs responsible for generating its line of test players, but whether that would be a 51% stake or less remains to be seen.   A voting process in late 2016 saw members give the green light to the Scottish Union to pursue this path of identifying and securing potential investment but only time will tell if it will draw in any worthwhile investors.

Italian rugby seems to lurch from one crisis to the next with the FIR having to bail out both Treviso and Zebre in recent times with substantial commitments of money.  After the last crisis, which saw a number of players leave the two clubs, it is Treviso who have fared better with the backing of Bennetton, and it is Zebre who are staring down the barrel of closure at season end once again.  A new franchise, based in Rome, is being rumoured to be on the cards with the FIR willing to put financial support into its development.   For many within the PRO12, and without, the Italian project seems to be a wasted exercise and just amounts to weekly humiliation as opposition teams pile up the points, regularly taking home try bonus points in their victories. For others, the Italian involvement is a long game and one that has to be persevered with.    Yet, the FIR is still not a shareholder in Celtic Rugby, the company which manages the PRO12 - the latest filings with the Companies Registration Office in Dublin shows that the three Celtic unions remain the founding shareholders, and critically, the beneficiaries of any financial dealing that flow through it - particularly in relation to TV broadcasting deals such as Sky Sports.  This current season, it took until Round 6 before an Italian broadcaster could be secured for covering the home matches of Treviso and Zebre, and with crowds often hovering around 1,500-2,000, this didn't raise many eyebrows.  for the foreseeable future, Italian rugby will stay within the PRO12, and the FIR will continue to be a major stakeholder/financier in the teams.

Irish rugby has been dabbling with business support for a number of years now with the provincial teams drawing in sponsorships, player salary top-ups, and increasing financial support for the various provinces through different types of schemes devised by the individual branches.   Jamie Heaslip recently re-signed with Leinster on what's likely to be his final playing contract before retirement (at age 37).  One of Ireland’s most consistent and durable players, he’s also been one of the most consistently highest paid through his IRFU central contract, and a salary top-up through his Leinster club with a business sponsorship deal with Bank of Ireland.  

But these adhoc business supports and extended sponsorships/player promotions and brand ambassadors do not fill the coffers of the branches sufficiently to grow and expand, it's sufficient only to pay the salaries of 2-3 players to keep them in place against ever higher competing offers from the TV-deal-enriched clubs in England and France.  As the IRFU pointed at the launch of its annual report last June, the IRFU cannot continue to be "the bank of last resort" for the provinces - following a €1 million plus bailout of Munster, and a €250k additional budget for each province to help them compete on player salaries.   A number of the provinces have sought quietly to persuade the IRFU to consider opening up the provinces’ branch company structures to allow private investors to take a stake in each of the provinces in return for continued investment over a period of time.  Until the last year, those overtures have been largely rebuffed with the occasional odd positive murmur about the need to keep control if such a development were to be envisaged.   It is rumoured that alongside the SRU’s current moves, the IRFU is also investigating how the branches’ structures could be altered to allow such investment in the future.  A variant of the NZRU model whereby they allowed private investors to take a stake in each of the five Super Rugby franchises is being considered, but the IRFU would want to maintain a controlling stake that gives them oversight and control in line with the current player management policy and protocols they have in place.  

As the IRFU have stated time and again, the revenues from the test game is what keeps the whole of Irish rugby afloat - interfering with or disabling that in some way is not something they would countenance.  Equally, the union recognises that costs will continue to rise in the PRO12 and wider club game with player salaries being biggest driver.   Their investment policy has switched from paying out large salaries to high-profile capped foreign players to investing in the domestic pathway development (€10m over the last 3 years) - with the emergence of some fine academy players across the provinces proving testament to this approach led by David Nucifora on behalf of the IRFU.

Nonetheless, the club game is getting bigger and more financially competitive so if a methodology can be developed to allow private investment takes its place at the table, it’s likely to happen over the next few years.  

But as two unions move across the dance floor looking for wealthy partners, the Welsh benefactors are being drawn (protestingly for some) from the other side by the WRU who have recently announced that they see the future of the Welsh game involving a marriage of both union and private investment funds.  As two unions prepare to step out, the Welsh union is preparing to step in again.   The Dragons region has been languishing in the shop window for the past year, gathering dust as various investor-type people amble up, take a poke and move off again without buying.   Martin Phillps was pushed recently in an interview to say that the WRU couldn't allow the region to fold, but he wasn't too specific in public as to what kind of support they might bring.  Equally, he was encouraged enough to say that increased union funding for the four regions seemed to be inevitable - but he didn't say what price they might extract for such investment.  Would the benefactors/shareholders be asked to move on, or move around the table to make more room for union faces to sit down?  

Whilst there are those who pine for a future whereby pure private investment and ownership rules the roost like their counterparts in England and France, the likelihood of that model being created and surviving does not seem to be on anyone's dance cards.   More likely, a marriage of convenience may be arrived at, wherein true love may never be expressed, but at least the two parties will be able to pay the mortgage together, and maybe afford a new extension or two in the near future to mix a few metaphors.

But for now, let the European hopscotch begin, and then the merry four-nation dance can begin again.

All together now:

Sixteen long years we spent in Dub-i-lin
Sixteen long years doin' nothing at all
Sixteen long years we spent in Dub-i-lin
Learning to dance at the PRO12 ball.

They stepped out, and they stepped in again......

geoff999rugby wrote:Doesn't prove it not least because every man and his dog knows that the French get round the salary cap by paying players vast sums of money for 'promotional' and 'endorsement' activites

Anyone who believes Toulon, Montpellier etc don't pay their players more than the salary cap is delusional

Was that not changed on the eve of this season though Mourad proudly boosted about it for years

marty2086 wrote:

PhilBB wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:
Yeah, we all know this, these clubs are all in debt because of it, the IRFU are to the four provinces, what the rich owners are to the clubs they own. The thing is, there is no FFP in rugby like there is in football, because if there was, a lot of clubs would be in trouble.

If we had FFP then we couldn't have the present set up in Ireland and Scotland.

So bring it on.

Not true at all but not like you be wrong

Erm, it would be true as it would mean each individual branch - at the very least - having to produce public accounts.

Dumbarse.

PhilBB wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

PhilBB wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:
Yeah, we all know this, these clubs are all in debt because of it, the IRFU are to the four provinces, what the rich owners are to the clubs they own. The thing is, there is no FFP in rugby like there is in football, because if there was, a lot of clubs would be in trouble.

If we had FFP then we couldn't have the present set up in Ireland and Scotland.

So bring it on.

Not true at all but not like you be wrong

Erm, it would be true as it would mean each individual branch - at the very least - having to produce public accounts.

Dumbarse.

Errmmm which current FFP regulations require that?

marty2086 wrote:

PhilBB wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

PhilBB wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:
Yeah, we all know this, these clubs are all in debt because of it, the IRFU are to the four provinces, what the rich owners are to the clubs they own. The thing is, there is no FFP in rugby like there is in football, because if there was, a lot of clubs would be in trouble.

If we had FFP then we couldn't have the present set up in Ireland and Scotland.

So bring it on.

Not true at all but not like you be wrong

Erm, it would be true as it would mean each individual branch - at the very least - having to produce public accounts.

Dumbarse.

Errmmm which current FFP regulations require that?

Pass.

PhilBB wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

PhilBB wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

PhilBB wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:
Yeah, we all know this, these clubs are all in debt because of it, the IRFU are to the four provinces, what the rich owners are to the clubs they own. The thing is, there is no FFP in rugby like there is in football, because if there was, a lot of clubs would be in trouble.

If we had FFP then we couldn't have the present set up in Ireland and Scotland.

So bring it on.

Not true at all but not like you be wrong

Erm, it would be true as it would mean each individual branch - at the very least - having to produce public accounts.

Dumbarse.

Errmmm which current FFP regulations require that?

Pass.

Me being a dumbarse I could be getting this wrong but does that mean there isn't and your previous statement then was complete cowpat? Imagine!

marty2086 wrote:
Me being a dumbarse I could be getting this wrong but does that mean there isn't and your previous statement then was complete cowpat? Imagine!

I don't know, Martyn. Please tell me how a rugby FFP would mean that the secrecy in Irish Branches would remain.

Do tell.

PhilBB wrote:

marty2086 wrote:
Me being a dumbarse I could be getting this wrong but does that mean there isn't and your previous statement then was complete cowpat? Imagine!

I don't know, Martyn. Please tell me how a rugby FFP would mean that the secrecy in Irish Branches would remain.

Do tell.

No lets go back to your claims that the Irish and Scots model couldn't exist under FFP because they would have to publish public accounts, are you saying that was fiction on your part?

marty2086 wrote:

PhilBB wrote:

marty2086 wrote:
Me being a dumbarse I could be getting this wrong but does that mean there isn't and your previous statement then was complete cowpat? Imagine!

I don't know, Martyn. Please tell me how a rugby FFP would mean that the secrecy in Irish Branches would remain.

Do tell.

No lets go back to your claims that the Irish and Scots model couldn't exist under FFP because they would have to publish public accounts, are you saying that was fiction on your part?

Complete fiction as we don't have a rugby FFP system. I think you've wet your knickers thinking I was referring to the soccer system.

Oh dear.

PhilBB wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

PhilBB wrote:

marty2086 wrote:
Me being a dumbarse I could be getting this wrong but does that mean there isn't and your previous statement then was complete cowpat? Imagine!

I don't know, Martyn. Please tell me how a rugby FFP would mean that the secrecy in Irish Branches would remain.

Do tell.

No lets go back to your claims that the Irish and Scots model couldn't exist under FFP because they would have to publish public accounts, are you saying that was fiction on your part?

Complete fiction as we don't have a rugby FFP system. I think you've wet your knickers thinking I was referring to the soccer system.

Oh dear.

Except LD clearly referenced football and FFP being a football term it was clearly meant to reference the footballing setup but yeah it was not that system you meant

But the made up scenario in your head wouldn't work for the Irish and Scottish would have to publish their accounts publically when that's already done, that's clear

marty2086 wrote:

Except LD clearly referenced football and FFP being a football term it was clearly meant to reference the footballing setup but yeah it was not that system you meant

But the made up scenario in your head wouldn't work for the Irish and Scottish would have to publish their accounts publically when that's already done, that's clear

But you couldn't copy the soccer set up like for like because of the DNACG. I would have thought that was obvious to anybody with a brain.

That's why LD wrote "like" as in similar, rather than a direct copy.

Sorry, where do Glasgow and Edinburgh publish their accounts, Champ? Or Leinster, Connacht and Munster.

PhilBB wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

Except LD clearly referenced football and FFP being a football term it was clearly meant to reference the footballing setup but yeah it was not that system you meant

But the made up scenario in your head wouldn't work for the Irish and Scottish would have to publish their accounts publically when that's already done, that's clear

But you couldn't copy the soccer set up like for like because of the DNACG. I would have thought that was obvious to anybody with a brain.

That's why LD wrote "like" as in similar, rather than a direct copy.

Sorry, where do Glasgow and Edinburgh publish their accounts, Champ? Or Leinster, Connacht and Munster.

So a body overseeing the financial running of clubs isn't compatible with another system of overseeing the financial management of clubs?

That would be a bit like the EPL having an FFP system and UEFA having one, that would never work

Edinburgh and Glasgows are in their annual reports and the other three publish theirs through the Revenue Commissioners

Glad to see phills back with his enormous chip.

carpet baboon wrote:Glad to see phills back with his enormous sh!t.

Fixed that for you

Just back from my travels to find Phil is back to grace the forums with his usual tinfoil hat stuff

He won't be happy that the Scarlets won the PRO12

Munchkin wrote:Just back from my travels to find Phil is back to grace the forums with his usual tinfoil hat stuff

He won't be happy that the Scarlets won the PRO12

Why wouldn't PHil be pleased for the Scarlets? He's as staunch an advocate as any for pro rugby in Wales

Stone Motif wrote:

Munchkin wrote:Just back from my travels to find Phil is back to grace the forums with his usual tinfoil hat stuff

He won't be happy that the Scarlets won the PRO12

Why wouldn't PHil be pleased for the Scarlets? He's as staunch an advocate as any for pro rugby in Wales

Because it shatters his tinfoil hat conspiracy theories

Stone Motif wrote:

Munchkin wrote:Just back from my travels to find Phil is back to grace the forums with his usual tinfoil hat stuff

He won't be happy that the Scarlets won the PRO12

Why wouldn't PHil be pleased for the Scarlets? He's as staunch an advocate as any for pro rugby in Wales

It doesn't fit his tinfoil hat narrative.

Edit ..... as Marty said

Yeah, OK. Trouble is you can see any number of instances where he has congratulated the Scarlets on their victory. Maybe the tin hat has a four leaf clover stuck in the band every now and then eh?

Stone Motif wrote:Yeah, OK. Trouble is you can see any number of instances where he has congratulated the Scarlets on their victory. Maybe the tin hat has a four leaf clover stuck in the band every now and then eh?

Not sure how that matters? He continually insists that the Pro12 or PrO'12 as he calls it like a proper grown up, is fixed towards the Irish

marty2086 wrote:

Stone Motif wrote:Yeah, OK. Trouble is you can see any number of instances where he has congratulated the Scarlets on their victory. Maybe the tin hat has a four leaf clover stuck in the band every now and then eh?

Not sure how that matters? He continually insists that the Pro12 or PrO'12 as he calls it like a proper grown up, is fixed towards the Irish

I'd say his criticisms were far more focused on the likelihood of the PrO'12 ever generating sufficient revenue such as to allow pro rugby in Wales to remain viable.

Stone Motif wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

Stone Motif wrote:Yeah, OK. Trouble is you can see any number of instances where he has congratulated the Scarlets on their victory. Maybe the tin hat has a four leaf clover stuck in the band every now and then eh?

Not sure how that matters? He continually insists that the Pro12 or PrO'12 as he calls it like a proper grown up, is fixed towards the Irish

I'd say his criticisms were far more focused on the likelihood of the PrO'12 ever generating sufficient revenue such as to allow pro rugby in Wales to remain viable.

Really? That must be why he is always going on about Irish refs and the IRFU then

I will make some observations - as a neutral.
It is desperately important for the sport that Wales, Scotland & Ireland have viable teams - where the risk of any team failing financially is diversified.
I think I have probably made the point more than once on this site, that centralised top down structures will always struggle financially long term against diversified bottom up structures.  I do get however that fans do totally buy in to a top down approach for the sake of a national side. Although the argument that to compete and be successful in Europe you have to concentrate elite players and expose them to a different level of competition for the next step up to Test level is however flawed.

You do also however have to ask - what other sporting body - professional or amateur, actually owns the participating elite teams ? Then ask yourself why there aren't any ?

The conflict that exists in running a number of teams does take a number of issues - the vague financial position with revenue & costs plus assets & liabilities is only one theme.

The Irish provinces are working to improve their income streams, Ulster are trying to generate sponsorship income from everything they can, Munster are hoping to sell the naming rights to Thomond and Leinster are trying to gain more out of the RDS.

The Scots are working at improving crowds and revenue too.

The biggest problem is that the sport has limitations to its reach and as whole it hasn't yet quite figured out how to grow and diversify

marty2086 wrote:The Irish provinces are working to improve their income streams, Ulster are trying to generate sponsorship income from everything they can, Munster are hoping to sell the naming rights to Thomond and Leinster are trying to gain more out of the RDS.

The Scots are working at improving crowds and revenue too.

The biggest problem is that the sport has limitations to its reach and as whole it hasn't yet quite figured out how to grow and diversify

We can improve crowds and non match day income all we want, it is still a drop in the ocean against the TV and digital revenues he competitors on our doorstep generate.

The tv and media revenue are dangerous though, contracts can be dependent on who is running networks etc and an over reliance on them can be the end of teams, Stade and Racing are the perfect example of that and plenty of other clubs in England and France are depending on cash injections from owners because the tv money isn't enough.

The money generated by the AP is over inflated by BT in their urgency to build their portfolio and steal some of Skys. the tv money from the Pro12 should go up with the next contract with not only it being a success for Sky but eirSports are now on the scene and stated last year they will make a play to get the rights.

The Pro 12 formally make an offer to the Free State Cheetahs to come and play in the Pro 12. They are one of the SA franchises, along with the Southern Kings, that look likely to face the chop at the end of this season.

On face value, this seems a much better option than the Pro 12 going to North America. Yes, it is still a long way to fly, but the time zones are more or less the same and unlike the prospective North American franchises, the Cheetahs will have a half decent team and should be competitive.

I would imagine that this would mean the Italian teams getting knocked down to one, as has already been mooted. That may not be a bad thing either if pooling their resources improves their quality as well. The implicit threat would of course be, that if not, another SA team comes in to replace them.

We're saved - Cheetahs invited to join.

Proteas12 anyone?

First Trump pulls the USA out of the Paris agreement and now the Pro12 do this.

The Pro12 should think of its Carbon Footprint!!!!!

Wasn't the SA tv deal for Super Rugby keeping it going for a long time?

Im not sure if it's still the case and given how the NZRU are throwing their weight around it would seem they hold the power now.

It could be significant for Pro 12 teams, it'll be interesting to see how it's structured

It could potentially be a good thing for the next Pro 12 TV deal as well. Anything that improves the overall quality of the league and could remove some of the miss matches can only be a good thing.

A few weeks ago we were told a Houston team was practically a done deal.

I think we are looking at a Pro 14 rather than a Pro 12 and two Italian teams will be kept, isn't the hope that a new team will be based in Rome?

I fail to see the advantages of having teams outside of Europe in the Pro12. The four Welsh sides can barely afford the trips to Italy, never mind going to North America or South Africa, unless of course these teams from further afield are going to fit the bill, like the Italians did when they joined.

LordDowlais wrote:I fail to see the advantages of having teams outside of Europe in the Pro12. The four Welsh sides can barely afford the trips to Italy, never mind going to North America or South Africa, unless of course these teams from further afield are going to fit the bill, like the Italians did when they joined.

The Welsh can't afford the trips to Italy that the Italians subsidise?

marty2086 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:I fail to see the advantages of having teams outside of Europe in the Pro12. The four Welsh sides can barely afford the trips to Italy, never mind going to North America or South Africa, unless of course these teams from further afield are going to fit the bill, like the Italians did when they joined.

The Welsh can't afford the trips to Italy that the Italians subsidise?

They do not subsidise them anymore.

Can you not just debate properly on here without always trying to be clever ? You are always condescending on here, just chill out and debate without the attitude, you are behaving like a stroppy teenage girl.

LordDowlais wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:I fail to see the advantages of having teams outside of Europe in the Pro12. The four Welsh sides can barely afford the trips to Italy, never mind going to North America or South Africa, unless of course these teams from further afield are going to fit the bill, like the Italians did when they joined.

The Welsh can't afford the trips to Italy that the Italians subsidise?

They do not subsidise them anymore.

Can you not just debate properly on here without always trying to be clever ? You are always condescending on here, just chill out and debate without the attitude, you are behaving like a stroppy teenage girl.

That's quite ironic that you say that then call me a teenage girl

So lets clear this up, the FIR no longer pay the membership fee?

I'm all for one or two SA sides joining with the PRO12, if it means increased revenue, although I would still want two Italian sides competing.

Maybe the PRO12 can work out cheaper travel to some of these games, if they actually happen.

Munchkin wrote:I'm all for one or two SA sides joining with the PRO12, if it means increased revenue, although I would still want two Italian sides competing.

Maybe the PRO12 can work out cheaper travel to some of these games, if they actually happen.

The ideal model would something similar to Toronto Wolfpack in Rugby League, they have linked up with an airline who will cover the travel costs

marty2086 wrote:

Munchkin wrote:I'm all for one or two SA sides joining with the PRO12, if it means increased revenue, although I would still want two Italian sides competing.

Maybe the PRO12 can work out cheaper travel to some of these games, if they actually happen.

The ideal model would something similar to Toronto Wolfpack in Rugby League, they have linked up with an airline who will cover the travel costs

That would be a massive bonus, even if travel costs were partly covered. There may be other options, such as Belfast City Council putting something towards the costs as a means to promote tourism. Saffers love us, even if nobody else does

12 teams is the optimum amount for the league. It gives a seasons worth of fixtures with the right amount of gaps for internationals etc.

It also allows the teams to keep squads of the right size to invest in and bring through young players.

The overall standard of the Pro 12 has improved immeasurably over the past few years. The fact that the last three winners have been Scarlets, Connacht and Glasgow shows that, none of them considered the traditional heavyweights of the league. Genuine competition for Euro places has helped as well.

The Italian sides have been the one major disappointment though and to some extent are holding the competition back. That is a situation that cannot be allowed to continue. Maybe one team will be to their benefit in the short to medium term, it might help the Italian national side to concentrate their players as well.

The management of the Pro 12 know that they will continue to fall behind the English and French leagues if they just stand still and that would be a slow lingering death with eventually all the best home grown players being tempted away by the money on offer elsewhere and the product would suffer even more.

Doing nothing is not really an option for them and this suggestion does at least sound a lot more plausible than the North American one.

I'm thinking that Italy will soon have one "super province" team and the Cheetahs will be the twelfth team.
A more competitive Italian team (though it would be drinking in the last chance saloon) and a new market for the Pro 12 to expand into.

It might work.

Munchkin wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

Munchkin wrote:I'm all for one or two SA sides joining with the PRO12, if it means increased revenue, although I would still want two Italian sides competing.

Maybe the PRO12 can work out cheaper travel to some of these games, if they actually happen.

The ideal model would something similar to Toronto Wolfpack in Rugby League, they have linked up with an airline who will cover the travel costs

That would be a massive bonus, even if travel costs were partly covered. There may be other options, such as Belfast City Council putting something towards the costs as a means to promote tourism. Saffers love us, even if nobody else does

With the money they're saving with them cutting food waste, they have extra in the budget for it

marty2086 wrote:So lets clear this up, the FIR no longer pay the membership fee?

Without checking I am sure that they were allowed to not pay this fee anymore in order for them to keep playing without the extra costs, and use this saved money to improve their own teams.

LordDowlais wrote:

marty2086 wrote:So lets clear this up, the FIR no longer pay the membership fee?

Without checking I am sure that they were allowed to not pay this fee anymore in order for them to keep playing without the extra costs, and use this saved money to improve their own teams.

So when they were told a few years ago they would be kicked out if they didn't cough up that was them being excused it?

marty2086 wrote:So when they were told a few years ago they would be kicked out if they didn't cough up that was them being excused it?

They still have not payed the membership fee. Also, they were subsidising the costs for other teams to travel out there when they first joined. A totally different payment to the membership fee.

The membership fee has been paid from what I can see but was reduced in 2014, I did find mention of the costs of travel to Italy being £60k so you may be right there LD, apologies for that.

marty2086 wrote:The membership fee has been paid from what I can see but was reduced in 2014, I did find mention of the costs of travel to Italy being £60k so you may be right there LD, apologies for that.

No probs.

While one Italian team may be more competitive, it wouldn't help with squad depth for the Italian national team.
I think and the Scottish fans would agree, that you need two at least to have competition for places and decent squad depth.

I do believe that keeping two Italian teams is necessary for the development of the Italian national team.

There are green shoots with the Italian under 20's beating the Irish, hopefully its the sign of a talented generation coming through.

As to the Free State Cheetahs joining, I have always thought its a good thing, and its time the Pro 12 pooled the TV revenues and shared them equally I also think the the Cheetahs and maybe Southern kings/Spears. They will add value straigth away already having teams, stadiums, fanbases and are a popular sport with TV potential. They will add straight to the Pro 12 rather than having to be grown like Italy and USA/Can. I would still like to see the USA/Canada join but SA will add straight away while those markets grow.

Its looking like the future for the league will include conferences, personally I'd much prefer a second tier that could include one or more North American team and teams from across the continent. The Celtic Unions or their teams investing in these teams could be great opportunities for everyone.

It could include a knockout competition for international windows that could be used to develop young players similar to the LV Cup

Actually I hope its the Central Cheetahs rather than Free State Cheetahs I like to think we are at super 15 level not Currie Cup