The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

First topic message reminder :

I stepped out and she stepped in again
I stepped out and she stepped in again
learning to dance for Lanigan's Ball


In thinking about recent goings-on at union level within the PRO12, I was reminded of the lyrics of this old song as unions, corporate interests, private investors, Welsh benefactors, and sundry money-makers make their various moves on the PRO12 dance floor.  Scotland and Ireland seem to be bashfully eyeing up the investor lads on one side of the hall, fluttering their eyelashes, whilst on the other side, the Welsh bennys (as they're affectionately known ) are making tapes and throwing shapes, whilst secretly hoping eagerly that they might get a chance to sign the WRU's card for a dance or two.  Meanwhile, the Italians dither in the middle wondering where they should be but won't tell anyone that they don't know even the music.  

But for now the band has taken a break whilst the visiting Europeans and Anglo heavies make their way onto the floor to start their version of French/Anglo hopscotch involving a number of bulky partners, foreign tap dancers, celtic coaches, and comic millionaires.

It's a good a time as any for a quick cuppa and a chance to talk about where the PRO12 is going with all the plans for expansion to US and Europe suddenly gone quiet, some league quality improvements, big weekend derbies, more neutral officials, and what else is on the horizon for upcoming changes within the PRO12.

The looming spectre of dwindling money and funding ever more expensive teams for the future seems to be the next big issue and where that is all going to come from.   Hopes of improved TV deals, better sponsors and business supporters of the league remain a distant aspiration - although the recent appointment of a commercial director to work alongside Martin Anayi on securing the best deals possible seems to be a step in the right direction.  Some are holding their whisth on that one.

Ownership and financing of the teams themselves is the most urgent and vexing issue facing the four unions operating in the PRO12.  Over the last number of months, the SRU have been making a lot of noise and some news headlines with their plans to bring in private investment to its two Scottish clubs to help meet some of the ongoing costs involved.   The SRU says it can't continue to finance the two teams at current levels of revenue and costs, and they need to bring in private investors/business to meet a substantial portion of the costs in return for a stake in one or both of the two clubs.  How much that stake would be is not clear as the SRU would want to keep their hand in the two clubs responsible for generating its line of test players, but whether that would be a 51% stake or less remains to be seen.   A voting process in late 2016 saw members give the green light to the Scottish Union to pursue this path of identifying and securing potential investment but only time will tell if it will draw in any worthwhile investors.

Italian rugby seems to lurch from one crisis to the next with the FIR having to bail out both Treviso and Zebre in recent times with substantial commitments of money.  After the last crisis, which saw a number of players leave the two clubs, it is Treviso who have fared better with the backing of Bennetton, and it is Zebre who are staring down the barrel of closure at season end once again.  A new franchise, based in Rome, is being rumoured to be on the cards with the FIR willing to put financial support into its development.   For many within the PRO12, and without, the Italian project seems to be a wasted exercise and just amounts to weekly humiliation as opposition teams pile up the points, regularly taking home try bonus points in their victories. For others, the Italian involvement is a long game and one that has to be persevered with.    Yet, the FIR is still not a shareholder in Celtic Rugby, the company which manages the PRO12 - the latest filings with the Companies Registration Office in Dublin shows that the three Celtic unions remain the founding shareholders, and critically, the beneficiaries of any financial dealing that flow through it - particularly in relation to TV broadcasting deals such as Sky Sports.  This current season, it took until Round 6 before an Italian broadcaster could be secured for covering the home matches of Treviso and Zebre, and with crowds often hovering around 1,500-2,000, this didn't raise many eyebrows.  for the foreseeable future, Italian rugby will stay within the PRO12, and the FIR will continue to be a major stakeholder/financier in the teams.

Irish rugby has been dabbling with business support for a number of years now with the provincial teams drawing in sponsorships, player salary top-ups, and increasing financial support for the various provinces through different types of schemes devised by the individual branches.   Jamie Heaslip recently re-signed with Leinster on what's likely to be his final playing contract before retirement (at age 37).  One of Ireland’s most consistent and durable players, he’s also been one of the most consistently highest paid through his IRFU central contract, and a salary top-up through his Leinster club with a business sponsorship deal with Bank of Ireland.  

But these adhoc business supports and extended sponsorships/player promotions and brand ambassadors do not fill the coffers of the branches sufficiently to grow and expand, it's sufficient only to pay the salaries of 2-3 players to keep them in place against ever higher competing offers from the TV-deal-enriched clubs in England and France.  As the IRFU pointed at the launch of its annual report last June, the IRFU cannot continue to be "the bank of last resort" for the provinces - following a €1 million plus bailout of Munster, and a €250k additional budget for each province to help them compete on player salaries.   A number of the provinces have sought quietly to persuade the IRFU to consider opening up the provinces’ branch company structures to allow private investors to take a stake in each of the provinces in return for continued investment over a period of time.  Until the last year, those overtures have been largely rebuffed with the occasional odd positive murmur about the need to keep control if such a development were to be envisaged.   It is rumoured that alongside the SRU’s current moves, the IRFU is also investigating how the branches’ structures could be altered to allow such investment in the future.  A variant of the NZRU model whereby they allowed private investors to take a stake in each of the five Super Rugby franchises is being considered, but the IRFU would want to maintain a controlling stake that gives them oversight and control in line with the current player management policy and protocols they have in place.  

As the IRFU have stated time and again, the revenues from the test game is what keeps the whole of Irish rugby afloat - interfering with or disabling that in some way is not something they would countenance.  Equally, the union recognises that costs will continue to rise in the PRO12 and wider club game with player salaries being biggest driver.   Their investment policy has switched from paying out large salaries to high-profile capped foreign players to investing in the domestic pathway development (€10m over the last 3 years) - with the emergence of some fine academy players across the provinces proving testament to this approach led by David Nucifora on behalf of the IRFU.

Nonetheless, the club game is getting bigger and more financially competitive so if a methodology can be developed to allow private investment takes its place at the table, it’s likely to happen over the next few years.  

But as two unions move across the dance floor looking for wealthy partners, the Welsh benefactors are being drawn (protestingly for some) from the other side by the WRU who have recently announced that they see the future of the Welsh game involving a marriage of both union and private investment funds.  As two unions prepare to step out, the Welsh union is preparing to step in again.   The Dragons region has been languishing in the shop window for the past year, gathering dust as various investor-type people amble up, take a poke and move off again without buying.   Martin Phillps was pushed recently in an interview to say that the WRU couldn't allow the region to fold, but he wasn't too specific in public as to what kind of support they might bring.  Equally, he was encouraged enough to say that increased union funding for the four regions seemed to be inevitable - but he didn't say what price they might extract for such investment.  Would the benefactors/shareholders be asked to move on, or move around the table to make more room for union faces to sit down?  

Whilst there are those who pine for a future whereby pure private investment and ownership rules the roost like their counterparts in England and France, the likelihood of that model being created and surviving does not seem to be on anyone's dance cards.   More likely, a marriage of convenience may be arrived at, wherein true love may never be expressed, but at least the two parties will be able to pay the mortgage together, and maybe afford a new extension or two in the near future to mix a few metaphors.

But for now, let the European hopscotch begin, and then the merry four-nation dance can begin again.

All together now:

Sixteen long years we spent in Dub-i-lin
Sixteen long years doin' nothing at all
Sixteen long years we spent in Dub-i-lin
Learning to dance at the PRO12 ball.

They stepped out, and they stepped in again......

Kingshu wrote:

RugbyFan100 wrote:

Kingshu wrote:I think the only fair way to do it is take the final table and all even numbers are in conference one and all odd numbers are in conference two.
The conferences are then set up at the end of each season. It does mean all 4 provinces could be in the one conference but thats just the way it goes. Its fair mixes thing up each year and means that finishing higher effects where you sit in a conference the next year adding to the competition.

Not maximizing the local rivalries by playing home and away would be a disaster. Income and crowds need to be maximised surely?

Each team would still have at least one derby, just not guaranteed two, if split on this years table it would be
Conference 1      
1 Munster      
3 Scarlets        
5 Ulster          
7 Cardiff Blues
9 Edinburgh    
11 Dragons      
(Southern Kings)    

 Conference 2
2 Leinster
4 Ospreys
6 Glasgow Warriors
8 Connacht
10 Treviso
12 Zebre
(Cheetahs)

I know that people will say conference two is easier with two Italians, but Treviso finished above Dragons, earning there place in conference 2 (in truth there are 3 weak teams so one conference will always have 2 of them)

Osprey may only get one home derby, but its about the league as a whole not local derbies.

While there will be less derbies, I think that setting up the conferences the fairest way possible on merit, is more integral than having a non merit system to facilitate derbies.

Jesus

Stone Motif wrote:

Kingshu wrote:

RugbyFan100 wrote:

Kingshu wrote:I think the only fair way to do it is take the final table and all even numbers are in conference one and all odd numbers are in conference two.
The conferences are then set up at the end of each season. It does mean all 4 provinces could be in the one conference but thats just the way it goes. Its fair mixes thing up each year and means that finishing higher effects where you sit in a conference the next year adding to the competition.

Not maximizing the local rivalries by playing home and away would be a disaster. Income and crowds need to be maximised surely?

Each team would still have at least one derby, just not guaranteed two, if split on this years table it would be
Conference 1      
1 Munster      
3 Scarlets        
5 Ulster          
7 Cardiff Blues
9 Edinburgh    
11 Dragons      
(Southern Kings)    

 Conference 2
2 Leinster
4 Ospreys
6 Glasgow Warriors
8 Connacht
10 Treviso
12 Zebre
(Cheetahs)

I know that people will say conference two is easier with two Italians, but Treviso finished above Dragons, earning there place in conference 2 (in truth there are 3 weak teams so one conference will always have 2 of them)

Osprey may only get one home derby, but its about the league as a whole not local derbies.

While there will be less derbies, I think that setting up the conferences the fairest way possible on merit, is more integral than having a non merit system to facilitate derbies.

Jesus

Feck is Jesus putting a team in? Can he use any player who has passed on? Or just archangel?

geoff999rugby wrote:Very strong rumour doing the rounds that 3 not 2 Saffer teams are to join - not sure which year though but sounds like this coming year.


Airline sponsors will cover cost of flights

This is a rumour within the IRFU NOT fans on twitter etc

It'll be good for the leagues profile even though they're the weakest SA teams.
A few weeks back Rassie Erasmus said he knew nothing about the league when he came. Not to mention it's still called the Celtic league by many people.

Stone Motif wrote:

geoff999rugby wrote:Very strong rumour doing the rounds that 3 not 2 Saffer teams are to join - not sure which year though but sounds like this coming year.


Airline sponsors will cover cost of flights

This is a rumour within the IRFU NOT fans on twitter etc

In the press today

Is it - which papers ?

Re conferences I reckon we are far more likely to go with 3 conferences

Taking the three nations with 3 teams or more and each conference is the best, second best and third best of the three countries.
Then the 2 Scottish teams and the next best according to calculated strength and final the bottom three.
You play the teams in your conference twice , the teams in one other conference all away, and the third conference all at home
Something like:

A: Scarlets, Munster, 3rd Saffers, Glasgow, Zebre
B: Leinster, Kings, Cardiff, Conaught, Treviso
C: Cheetahs, Ospreys, Ulster, Edinburgh, Dragons

So Ulster, for example would play 8 games in their conference and all A teams away and all B teams at home
18 games in total

A bit of space for a cup and also a playoff system like the French - 6 teams with 3rd v 6th, 4th v 5th with the top 2 getting a bye to SF playoffs

Does that not lose money spinning derbies every other year? There would need to be a real spike in tv and sponsorship to get everyone on board surely?

I think playing the top teams is more important than playing derbies ie for Ospreys, playing Leinster or Munster is bigger than playing Dragons. If not now in terms of league placing these games will matter more.

There are always some exceptions but don't forget the Welsh have Judgement Day and over Christmas and that you have the derbies, these have become important fixtures

marty2086 wrote:Does that not lose money spinning derbies every other year? There would need to be a real spike in tv and sponsorship to get everyone on board surely?

This is a mad guess but I'd say TV money alone could go from the current €11m to something like €40m or more if sky decide they want exclusive rights. Hoow do I come up with those figures you ask.

Well theres over 50m people in SA, thats multiple times the population of Ireland, Scotland and Wales. They're rugby mad down there compared to this part of the world. The pro12 is in the right time zone for them. If 1m people pay €50 a year to watch the league, thats €50m for the TV company so conservatively the pro12 could get €20m from SA TV.  

Sky pay around €5m now without exclusivity. A new league would have higher quality matches, be more competitive, be of a higher prestige now that SA is on board etc. Plus you have other secondary broadcasters like Eurosport etc. So for exclusivity Sky would pay at least €20m I reckon. If some other broadcasters challenge sky then it could be MUCH higher because €20m is a steal.

€40m per season is nearly €3m per team (14 teams). Thats nearly triple the current TV monies with a slightly shorter season. Thats being conservative and I didn't include the knock on effect for things like sponsors, season tickets sold etc.

Looks like the 3rd SA team is one of the big four who want to jump ship due to dissatisfaction with the Super 18.

Two reasons given are:
Being in the Pro 12 will reduce flying time for SA teams
Secondly the Saffers are feed up with their TV deal subsidising the Aussies and Kiwis

A combined SA TV and Sky deal could make any loss of gate revenue largely irrelevant by comparison

This will destroy Italian rugby.

Cyril wrote:This will destroy Italian rugby.

Yeah the extra money will be tough on them

It also occurs to me that, for example, that any solution I put forward would still give each Welsh and Irish side 3 or 4 local derbies (currently 6)

That means the big money spinning days out could still be arranged

But the money comes from hosting the games does it not? So Leinster visiting Ravenhill generates more incomes than Ulster going to the OrDS so there would be a loss there in terms of match day revenue

Kingshu wrote:I think playing the top teams is more important than playing derbies ie for Ospreys, playing Leinster or Munster is bigger than playing Dragons. If not now in terms of league placing these games will matter more.

OMG.

marty2086 wrote:

Cyril wrote:This will destroy Italian rugby.

Yeah the extra money will be tough on them

Not if they're booted out to make way for Saffers.

It's pretty clear that the Pro12 wishes it never got in bed with the Italians and have been scouting around for replacements for years. Not saying that's a bad thing though as the Italian sides are dross and don't deserve their place at the top table. The remaining Pro12 (or however many) will benefit from casting them adrift.

Cyril wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

Cyril wrote:This will destroy Italian rugby.

Yeah the extra money will be tough on them

Not if they're booted out to make way for Saffers.

It's pretty clear that the Pro12 wishes it never got in bed with the Italians and have been scouting around for replacements for years. Not saying that's a bad thing though as the Italian sides are dross and don't deserve their place at the top table. The remaining Pro12 (or however many) will benefit from casting them adrift.

How exactly is it pretty clear when everyones bent over backwards to make sure they stay there?

geoff999rugby wrote:It also occurs to me that, for example, that any solution I put forward would still give each Welsh and Irish side 3 or 4 local derbies (currently 6)

That means the big money spinning days out could still be arranged

The WRU will not sacrifice any of the derbies, it will be like turkeys voting for Christmas.

LordDowlais wrote:

geoff999rugby wrote:It also occurs to me that, for example, that any solution I put forward would still give each Welsh and Irish side 3 or 4 local derbies (currently 6)

That means the big money spinning days out could still be arranged

The WRU will not sacrifice any of the derbies, it will be like turkeys voting for Christmas.

Have the WRU taken over all the Regions?

Cyril wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

Cyril wrote:This will destroy Italian rugby.

Yeah the extra money will be tough on them

Not if they're booted out to make way for Saffers.

It's pretty clear that the Pro12 wishes it never got in bed with the Italians and have been scouting around for replacements for years. Not saying that's a bad thing though as the Italian sides are dross and don't deserve their place at the top table. The remaining Pro12 (or however many) will benefit from casting them adrift.

It's not clear at all. The current thinking/rumours are that the PRO12 will become a conference, so no need to turf out the Italians.

The Italian sides are a mess, but I still want them to remain, although investing all their resources into one Italian side might be best for them.

LordDowlais wrote:

geoff999rugby wrote:It also occurs to me that, for example, that any solution I put forward would still give each Welsh and Irish side 3 or 4 local derbies (currently 6)

That means the big money spinning days out could still be arranged

The WRU will not sacrifice any of the derbies, it will be like turkeys voting for Christmas.

So the WRU wont want the Regions making more money and having to put away the begging bowl?

marty2086 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

geoff999rugby wrote:It also occurs to me that, for example, that any solution I put forward would still give each Welsh and Irish side 3 or 4 local derbies (currently 6)

That means the big money spinning days out could still be arranged

The WRU will not sacrifice any of the derbies, it will be like turkeys voting for Christmas.

So the WRU wont want the Regions making more money and having to put away the begging bowl?

What begging bowl is this?

marty2086 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

geoff999rugby wrote:It also occurs to me that, for example, that any solution I put forward would still give each Welsh and Irish side 3 or 4 local derbies (currently 6)

That means the big money spinning days out could still be arranged

The WRU will not sacrifice any of the derbies, it will be like turkeys voting for Christmas.

So the WRU wont want the Regions making more money and having to put away the begging bowl?

How will they be making more money without the derby's ? Do any of you lot outside of Wales realise how important the derby's are to the regions ?

Cyril wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

Cyril wrote:This will destroy Italian rugby.

Yeah the extra money will be tough on them

Not if they're booted out to make way for Saffers.

It's pretty clear that the Pro12 wishes it never got in bed with the Italians and have been scouting around for replacements for years. Not saying that's a bad thing though as the Italian sides are dross and don't deserve their place at the top table. The remaining Pro12 (or however many) will benefit from casting them adrift.

The Italians are finally making improvements behind the scenes so no point throwing them out at this stage. Remember in recent seasons Glasgow and COnnacht have both won the pro12. They have been down near or at the bottom for most of their existence.

LordDowlais wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

geoff999rugby wrote:It also occurs to me that, for example, that any solution I put forward would still give each Welsh and Irish side 3 or 4 local derbies (currently 6)

That means the big money spinning days out could still be arranged

The WRU will not sacrifice any of the derbies, it will be like turkeys voting for Christmas.

So the WRU wont want the Regions making more money and having to put away the begging bowl?

How will they be making more money without the derby's ? Do any of you lot outside of Wales realise how important the derby's are to the regions ?

They are only really important to the identity of the teams, which are being eroded min two if the four anyway. We could play derbies 13 fixtures a year and still make a loss. We need substantially more TV cash or we are doomed.

profitius wrote:

Cyril wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

Cyril wrote:This will destroy Italian rugby.

Yeah the extra money will be tough on them

Not if they're booted out to make way for Saffers.

It's pretty clear that the Pro12 wishes it never got in bed with the Italians and have been scouting around for replacements for years. Not saying that's a bad thing though as the Italian sides are dross and don't deserve their place at the top table. The remaining Pro12 (or however many) will benefit from casting them adrift.

The Italians are finally making improvements behind the scenes so no point throwing them out at this stage. Remember in recent seasons Glasgow and COnnacht have both won the pro12. They have been down near or at the bottom for most of their existence.

They have the means to grow. The Italians need to be someone else's problem we in the Celtic nations need not put our own survival first while we can. The Italians need to join the lower echelons of the French league and work up from there. Ditto Berlin, Georgia Krasnodar and any of the other continental dead ends on Martin Anayi's big pimping tour of everywhere.

LordDowlais wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

geoff999rugby wrote:It also occurs to me that, for example, that any solution I put forward would still give each Welsh and Irish side 3 or 4 local derbies (currently 6)

That means the big money spinning days out could still be arranged

The WRU will not sacrifice any of the derbies, it will be like turkeys voting for Christmas.

So the WRU wont want the Regions making more money and having to put away the begging bowl?

How will they be making more money without the derby's ? Do any of you lot outside of Wales realise how important the derby's are to the regions ?

Because that's not where the big money is, if there is a huge jump in the tv revenue then you are saying the WRU will turn their noses up at it just to preserve the derby games?

RugbyFan100 wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

geoff999rugby wrote:It also occurs to me that, for example, that any solution I put forward would still give each Welsh and Irish side 3 or 4 local derbies (currently 6)

That means the big money spinning days out could still be arranged

The WRU will not sacrifice any of the derbies, it will be like turkeys voting for Christmas.

So the WRU wont want the Regions making more money and having to put away the begging bowl?

What begging bowl is this?

The one that the Regions always go running to the WRU with

marty2086 wrote:

RugbyFan100 wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

geoff999rugby wrote:It also occurs to me that, for example, that any solution I put forward would still give each Welsh and Irish side 3 or 4 local derbies (currently 6)

That means the big money spinning days out could still be arranged

The WRU will not sacrifice any of the derbies, it will be like turkeys voting for Christmas.

So the WRU wont want the Regions making more money and having to put away the begging bowl?

What begging bowl is this?

The one that the Regions always go running to the WRU with

Not something I've ever seen them do. WRU gave them loans which were to be paid back around 2 or 3 seasons ago. Other than that I think you're trying to discredit the Welsh regions unfairly. If I am wrong, you'll surely give a long list of recent examples where the regions have gone on record to say that they have run out of money and need the WRU to keep them in business.

Stone Motif wrote:

profitius wrote:

Cyril wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

Cyril wrote:This will destroy Italian rugby.

Yeah the extra money will be tough on them

Not if they're booted out to make way for Saffers.

It's pretty clear that the Pro12 wishes it never got in bed with the Italians and have been scouting around for replacements for years. Not saying that's a bad thing though as the Italian sides are dross and don't deserve their place at the top table. The remaining Pro12 (or however many) will benefit from casting them adrift.

The Italians are finally making improvements behind the scenes so no point throwing them out at this stage. Remember in recent seasons Glasgow and COnnacht have both won the pro12. They have been down near or at the bottom for most of their existence.

They have the means to grow. The Italians need to be someone else's problem we in the Celtic nations need not put our own survival first while we can. The Italians need to join the lower echelons of the French league and work up from there. Ditto Berlin, Georgia Krasnodar and any of the other continental dead ends on Martin Anayi's big pimping tour of everywhere.

Actually it is their problem since the Italians development at Pro12 impacts the 6Ns which is a cash cow for everyone, not to mention the growth of the game in Italy can bring increased revenue to the league. It's called the bigger picture

RugbyFan100 wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

RugbyFan100 wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

geoff999rugby wrote:It also occurs to me that, for example, that any solution I put forward would still give each Welsh and Irish side 3 or 4 local derbies (currently 6)

That means the big money spinning days out could still be arranged

The WRU will not sacrifice any of the derbies, it will be like turkeys voting for Christmas.

So the WRU wont want the Regions making more money and having to put away the begging bowl?

What begging bowl is this?

The one that the Regions always go running to the WRU with

Not something I've ever seen them do. WRU gave them loans which were to be paid back around 2 or 3 seasons ago. Other than that I think you're trying to discredit the Welsh regions unfairly. If I am wrong, you'll surely give a long list of recent examples where the regions have gone on record to say that they have run out of money and need the WRU to keep them in business.

You mean when a new agreement between was signed a few years back and the Regions claimed they needed more money within a few weeks that wasn't them going with the begging bowl?

The NDCs?

Cardiff asking them to take over their contracts?

The Dragons takeover?

Those the kind of examples?

Stone Motif wrote:They are only really important to the identity of the teams, which are being eroded min two if the four anyway. We could play derbies 13 fixtures a year and still make a loss. We need substantially more TV cash or we are doomed.

But the TV companies want the derby's the Welsh derby's are a big selling point to BBC Wales/S4C as I would imagine SKY look at as well.

marty2086 wrote:

You mean when a new agreement between was signed a few years back and the Regions claimed they needed more money within a few weeks that wasn't them going with the begging bowl?

The NDCs?

Cardiff asking them to take over their contracts?

The Dragons takeover?

Those the kind of examples?

You seem to be confused. You are equating an organisation negotiating a fair price for it's product, with "begging".

Begging would be where the regions get money for nothing in return. So all your examples are incorrect.

Sorry about that.

Number of points:

1- The Italians are not being kicked out
2 - The money generated from the big double headed fixtures in Wales could easily be accommodated into the conference structure so that big pay day would not be lost.
3 - Yes you would loose 1 possibly 2 home derbies but seeing as those games are often, less than 10,000 a game at home to a Saffer franchise more than make up for it
4 - Most Pro12 games, including derbies, generate a small proportion of the total income - sponsorship and TV are more important
5 - With the Saffers on board we have the prospect of a big boost in TV renew from them and Sky. The much lower revenue we get from TV has often been criticised here - here is a chance to change that for the benefit of all
6 - We have a big airline coming on board (don't know who) as a sponsor which will boost the income as well as negate the fears regarding increased travel costs

Bottom line is get with the program because it is most definitely coming - this year or next

Didn't Munster go to the IRFU with the begging bowl recently? Must have borrowed the bowl from us!

Good news on the SA teams. I'd keep the Italians too. Onwards and upwards!

RugbyFan100 wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

You mean when a new agreement between was signed a few years back and the Regions claimed they needed more money within a few weeks that wasn't them going with the begging bowl?

The NDCs?

Cardiff asking them to take over their contracts?

The Dragons takeover?

Those the kind of examples?

You seem to be confused. You are equating an organisation negotiating a fair price for it's product, with "begging".

Begging would be where the regions get money for nothing in return. So all your examples are incorrect.

Sorry about that.

No Im not confused, the RRW had negotiated a deal with the WRU then turned around AFTER signing it and wanted more money and a new agreement. This was within a few months, if you negotiate and sign a deal then want more after the fact that's to me is bad faith and going with the begging bowl

Not sure how WRU taking on Cardiffs contracts is negotiating a fair price

Griff wrote:Didn't Munster go to the IRFU with the begging bowl recently? Must have borrowed the bowl from us!

They went to them for a loan, which apparently doesn't count

LordDowlais wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

geoff999rugby wrote:It also occurs to me that, for example, that any solution I put forward would still give each Welsh and Irish side 3 or 4 local derbies (currently 6)

That means the big money spinning days out could still be arranged

The WRU will not sacrifice any of the derbies, it will be like turkeys voting for Christmas.

So the WRU wont want the Regions making more money and having to put away the begging bowl?

How will they be making more money without the derby's ? Do any of you lot outside of Wales realise how important the derby's are to the regions ?

So it looks like the Pro 12 are trying to create a league that can attract sponsors TV revenue and teams that will intrest the masses, bring in SA teams, look into setting up US/Can teams, bring in more money for everyone, and be able to compete finically with the Aviva and Top 14 and yet there is still a section of Welsh supporters that complain?

If conferences and losing some derbies is the price, to create a league that can compete finicially then so be it.

marty2086 wrote:gotiate and sign a deal then want more after the fact that's to me is bad faith and going with the begging bowl

Not sure how WRU taking on Cardiffs contracts is negotiating a fair price

Tel me how many of Cardiff's contracts are now fully owned by the WRU?

RugbyFan100 wrote:

marty2086 wrote:gotiate and sign a deal then want more after the fact that's to me is bad faith and going with the begging bowl

Not sure how WRU taking on Cardiffs contracts is negotiating a fair price

Tel me how many of Cardiff's contracts are now fully owned by the WRU?

Whats that got to do with anything?

Just because you go with the begging bowl doesn't mean you get what you want

marty2086 wrote:

Griff wrote:Didn't Munster go to the IRFU with the begging bowl recently? Must have borrowed the bowl from us!

They went to them for a loan, which apparently doesn't count

Exactly.

marty2086 wrote:

RugbyFan100 wrote:

marty2086 wrote:gotiate and sign a deal then want more after the fact that's to me is bad faith and going with the begging bowl

Not sure how WRU taking on Cardiffs contracts is negotiating a fair price

Tel me how many of Cardiff's contracts are now fully owned by the WRU?

Whats that got to do with anything?

Just because you go with the begging bowl doesn't mean you get what you want

I'm not 100% sure you have the slightest clue what you are talking about. The incentive for the WRU is clearly a refurbished Cardiff Arms Park. But if you want to continue to try and smear the Welsh regions with claims about begging, then I'm not sure anyone's going to stop you. You'll just end up looking like (more of) a fool.

RugbyFan100 wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

RugbyFan100 wrote:

marty2086 wrote:gotiate and sign a deal then want more after the fact that's to me is bad faith and going with the begging bowl

Not sure how WRU taking on Cardiffs contracts is negotiating a fair price

Tel me how many of Cardiff's contracts are now fully owned by the WRU?

Whats that got to do with anything?

Just because you go with the begging bowl doesn't mean you get what you want

I'm not 100% sure you have the slightest clue what you are talking about. The incentive for the WRU is clearly a refurbished Cardiff Arms Park. But if you want to continue to try and smear the Welsh regions with claims about begging, then I'm not sure anyone's going to stop you. You'll just end up looking like (more of) a fool.

Yip, its a huge benefit to the WRU to pay Cardiffs wages so they can pay to renovate a ground neither of them own

It's a bit like going to a friend and asking them to pay your bills while you pay to renovate the house you rent, I can see how you think that's not begging

Ouch

€1.5m IRFU grant.

http://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/rugby/boost-as-munster-to-post-310000-surplus-451963.html

Your point?

Far more of an example of begging than anything the Welsh regions have done in the last decade.

Not sure of the relevance, that wasn't the issue, it seems more a case of what is called whataboutery

The grant is money is given, not requested and all provinces receive it, if I'm not mistaken the grant is towards rugby development but you keep trying

marty2086 wrote:

Stone Motif wrote:

profitius wrote:

Cyril wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

Cyril wrote:This will destroy Italian rugby.

Yeah the extra money will be tough on them

Not if they're booted out to make way for Saffers.

It's pretty clear that the Pro12 wishes it never got in bed with the Italians and have been scouting around for replacements for years. Not saying that's a bad thing though as the Italian sides are dross and don't deserve their place at the top table. The remaining Pro12 (or however many) will benefit from casting them adrift.

The Italians are finally making improvements behind the scenes so no point throwing them out at this stage. Remember in recent seasons Glasgow and COnnacht have both won the pro12. They have been down near or at the bottom for most of their existence.

They have the means to grow. The Italians need to be someone else's problem we in the Celtic nations need not put our own survival first while we can. The Italians need to join the lower echelons of the French league and work up from there. Ditto Berlin, Georgia Krasnodar and any of the other continental dead ends on Martin Anayi's big pimping tour of everywhere.

Actually it is their problem since the Italians development at Pro12 impacts the 6Ns which is a cash cow for everyone, not to mention the growth of the game in Italy can bring increased revenue to the league. It's called the bigger picture

No, it's called throwing sh1te at a wall. Something you're very good at , like your namesake at the PrO'12...

marty2086 wrote:

RugbyFan100 wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

RugbyFan100 wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

geoff999rugby wrote:It also occurs to me that, for example, that any solution I put forward would still give each Welsh and Irish side 3 or 4 local derbies (currently 6)

That means the big money spinning days out could still be arranged

The WRU will not sacrifice any of the derbies, it will be like turkeys voting for Christmas.

So the WRU wont want the Regions making more money and having to put away the begging bowl?

What begging bowl is this?

The one that the Regions always go running to the WRU with

Not something I've ever seen them do. WRU gave them loans which were to be paid back around 2 or 3 seasons ago. Other than that I think you're trying to discredit the Welsh regions unfairly. If I am wrong, you'll surely give a long list of recent examples where the regions have gone on record to say that they have run out of money and need the WRU to keep them in business.

You mean when a new agreement between was signed a few years back and the Regions claimed they needed more money within a few weeks that wasn't them going with the begging bowl?

The NDCs?

Cardiff asking them to take over their contracts?

The Dragons takeover?

Those the kind of examples?

The WRU spent the last half a decade creating impossible trading conditions for their own pro teams. The examples above are the Union reaping what is has sown.

Stone Motif wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

Stone Motif wrote:

profitius wrote:

Cyril wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

Cyril wrote:This will destroy Italian rugby.

Yeah the extra money will be tough on them

Not if they're booted out to make way for Saffers.

It's pretty clear that the Pro12 wishes it never got in bed with the Italians and have been scouting around for replacements for years. Not saying that's a bad thing though as the Italian sides are dross and don't deserve their place at the top table. The remaining Pro12 (or however many) will benefit from casting them adrift.

The Italians are finally making improvements behind the scenes so no point throwing them out at this stage. Remember in recent seasons Glasgow and COnnacht have both won the pro12. They have been down near or at the bottom for most of their existence.

They have the means to grow. The Italians need to be someone else's problem we in the Celtic nations need not put our own survival first while we can. The Italians need to join the lower echelons of the French league and work up from there. Ditto Berlin, Georgia Krasnodar and any of the other continental dead ends on Martin Anayi's big pimping tour of everywhere.

Actually it is their problem since the Italians development at Pro12 impacts the 6Ns which is a cash cow for everyone, not to mention the growth of the game in Italy can bring increased revenue to the league. It's called the bigger picture

No, it's called throwing sh1te at a wall. Something you're very good at , like your namesake at the PrO'12...

Makes loads of sense that