The Future for the PRO12 - Part 3 - The Union Balldance

First topic message reminder :

I stepped out and she stepped in again
I stepped out and she stepped in again
learning to dance for Lanigan's Ball


In thinking about recent goings-on at union level within the PRO12, I was reminded of the lyrics of this old song as unions, corporate interests, private investors, Welsh benefactors, and sundry money-makers make their various moves on the PRO12 dance floor.  Scotland and Ireland seem to be bashfully eyeing up the investor lads on one side of the hall, fluttering their eyelashes, whilst on the other side, the Welsh bennys (as they're affectionately known ) are making tapes and throwing shapes, whilst secretly hoping eagerly that they might get a chance to sign the WRU's card for a dance or two.  Meanwhile, the Italians dither in the middle wondering where they should be but won't tell anyone that they don't know even the music.  

But for now the band has taken a break whilst the visiting Europeans and Anglo heavies make their way onto the floor to start their version of French/Anglo hopscotch involving a number of bulky partners, foreign tap dancers, celtic coaches, and comic millionaires.

It's a good a time as any for a quick cuppa and a chance to talk about where the PRO12 is going with all the plans for expansion to US and Europe suddenly gone quiet, some league quality improvements, big weekend derbies, more neutral officials, and what else is on the horizon for upcoming changes within the PRO12.

The looming spectre of dwindling money and funding ever more expensive teams for the future seems to be the next big issue and where that is all going to come from.   Hopes of improved TV deals, better sponsors and business supporters of the league remain a distant aspiration - although the recent appointment of a commercial director to work alongside Martin Anayi on securing the best deals possible seems to be a step in the right direction.  Some are holding their whisth on that one.

Ownership and financing of the teams themselves is the most urgent and vexing issue facing the four unions operating in the PRO12.  Over the last number of months, the SRU have been making a lot of noise and some news headlines with their plans to bring in private investment to its two Scottish clubs to help meet some of the ongoing costs involved.   The SRU says it can't continue to finance the two teams at current levels of revenue and costs, and they need to bring in private investors/business to meet a substantial portion of the costs in return for a stake in one or both of the two clubs.  How much that stake would be is not clear as the SRU would want to keep their hand in the two clubs responsible for generating its line of test players, but whether that would be a 51% stake or less remains to be seen.   A voting process in late 2016 saw members give the green light to the Scottish Union to pursue this path of identifying and securing potential investment but only time will tell if it will draw in any worthwhile investors.

Italian rugby seems to lurch from one crisis to the next with the FIR having to bail out both Treviso and Zebre in recent times with substantial commitments of money.  After the last crisis, which saw a number of players leave the two clubs, it is Treviso who have fared better with the backing of Bennetton, and it is Zebre who are staring down the barrel of closure at season end once again.  A new franchise, based in Rome, is being rumoured to be on the cards with the FIR willing to put financial support into its development.   For many within the PRO12, and without, the Italian project seems to be a wasted exercise and just amounts to weekly humiliation as opposition teams pile up the points, regularly taking home try bonus points in their victories. For others, the Italian involvement is a long game and one that has to be persevered with.    Yet, the FIR is still not a shareholder in Celtic Rugby, the company which manages the PRO12 - the latest filings with the Companies Registration Office in Dublin shows that the three Celtic unions remain the founding shareholders, and critically, the beneficiaries of any financial dealing that flow through it - particularly in relation to TV broadcasting deals such as Sky Sports.  This current season, it took until Round 6 before an Italian broadcaster could be secured for covering the home matches of Treviso and Zebre, and with crowds often hovering around 1,500-2,000, this didn't raise many eyebrows.  for the foreseeable future, Italian rugby will stay within the PRO12, and the FIR will continue to be a major stakeholder/financier in the teams.

Irish rugby has been dabbling with business support for a number of years now with the provincial teams drawing in sponsorships, player salary top-ups, and increasing financial support for the various provinces through different types of schemes devised by the individual branches.   Jamie Heaslip recently re-signed with Leinster on what's likely to be his final playing contract before retirement (at age 37).  One of Ireland’s most consistent and durable players, he’s also been one of the most consistently highest paid through his IRFU central contract, and a salary top-up through his Leinster club with a business sponsorship deal with Bank of Ireland.  

But these adhoc business supports and extended sponsorships/player promotions and brand ambassadors do not fill the coffers of the branches sufficiently to grow and expand, it's sufficient only to pay the salaries of 2-3 players to keep them in place against ever higher competing offers from the TV-deal-enriched clubs in England and France.  As the IRFU pointed at the launch of its annual report last June, the IRFU cannot continue to be "the bank of last resort" for the provinces - following a €1 million plus bailout of Munster, and a €250k additional budget for each province to help them compete on player salaries.   A number of the provinces have sought quietly to persuade the IRFU to consider opening up the provinces’ branch company structures to allow private investors to take a stake in each of the provinces in return for continued investment over a period of time.  Until the last year, those overtures have been largely rebuffed with the occasional odd positive murmur about the need to keep control if such a development were to be envisaged.   It is rumoured that alongside the SRU’s current moves, the IRFU is also investigating how the branches’ structures could be altered to allow such investment in the future.  A variant of the NZRU model whereby they allowed private investors to take a stake in each of the five Super Rugby franchises is being considered, but the IRFU would want to maintain a controlling stake that gives them oversight and control in line with the current player management policy and protocols they have in place.  

As the IRFU have stated time and again, the revenues from the test game is what keeps the whole of Irish rugby afloat - interfering with or disabling that in some way is not something they would countenance.  Equally, the union recognises that costs will continue to rise in the PRO12 and wider club game with player salaries being biggest driver.   Their investment policy has switched from paying out large salaries to high-profile capped foreign players to investing in the domestic pathway development (€10m over the last 3 years) - with the emergence of some fine academy players across the provinces proving testament to this approach led by David Nucifora on behalf of the IRFU.

Nonetheless, the club game is getting bigger and more financially competitive so if a methodology can be developed to allow private investment takes its place at the table, it’s likely to happen over the next few years.  

But as two unions move across the dance floor looking for wealthy partners, the Welsh benefactors are being drawn (protestingly for some) from the other side by the WRU who have recently announced that they see the future of the Welsh game involving a marriage of both union and private investment funds.  As two unions prepare to step out, the Welsh union is preparing to step in again.   The Dragons region has been languishing in the shop window for the past year, gathering dust as various investor-type people amble up, take a poke and move off again without buying.   Martin Phillps was pushed recently in an interview to say that the WRU couldn't allow the region to fold, but he wasn't too specific in public as to what kind of support they might bring.  Equally, he was encouraged enough to say that increased union funding for the four regions seemed to be inevitable - but he didn't say what price they might extract for such investment.  Would the benefactors/shareholders be asked to move on, or move around the table to make more room for union faces to sit down?  

Whilst there are those who pine for a future whereby pure private investment and ownership rules the roost like their counterparts in England and France, the likelihood of that model being created and surviving does not seem to be on anyone's dance cards.   More likely, a marriage of convenience may be arrived at, wherein true love may never be expressed, but at least the two parties will be able to pay the mortgage together, and maybe afford a new extension or two in the near future to mix a few metaphors.

But for now, let the European hopscotch begin, and then the merry four-nation dance can begin again.

All together now:

Sixteen long years we spent in Dub-i-lin
Sixteen long years doin' nothing at all
Sixteen long years we spent in Dub-i-lin
Learning to dance at the PRO12 ball.

They stepped out, and they stepped in again......

marty2086 wrote:

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:The Welsh regions will not want to drop a home derby fixture. This I can guarantee you.

Even if they were going to get even more money from the increase in tv revenue? Really?

Damn straight.  Look at the regional attendances, and listen to the majority of the regional fans (sepecially during the HEC/RCC war), the derby games are the most important fixtures of the season.

Says a lot about the mentality in Wales then, need to break out of your own bubble

Personally I think the best approach is increased fixtures for the coming season and then revert to conferences after that if/when they add some N. American teams

So why don't the Irish axe their local derbies then?

I have to agree with BigGee, I have mentioned before about the Pro 12 being like Scottish football, in the late 90's were the old from could compete with the premier sides, Gazza, Flo, GVB etc, but as time went on they are now competing for championship level signing. The same will happen the Pro 12.

I don't like conferences, but if it saves the Pro 12 and means the provinces, Regions and Scottish teams can play at a competitive level, its better than watching them slowly die, and everyone go to the pub to watch Tigers etc each weekend.

ScarletSpiderman I cannot see how a Conference would have only 6 home games, as you would play everyone in the other conference once as well, which makes 9-10 home games.

It hasn't been worked out yet, but it will just be of this year, next year if there are US/CAD teams it will return to 11 home games.

If we don't take this chance this year with the SA teams, they may not be around for next year when we would have it all arranged.

Its best to make the best of this season as possible, even if it means the loss of a home game for some, to build for the future.

RDW_Scotland wrote:Would the Welsh derbies have the same appeal if they form the majority of games in a season? I.e. if each welsh team plays each other 3 times a season instead of 2 could it become overkill?

No, because geography dictates that that we would get more bums on seats with Welsh derby's. Because of the away support. Unless the South Africans come over in droves to watch their franchises. Or the Italians come over en mass, never mind our own bubble and the what not, this survival of the fittest, and we need the derbies to stay alive, or at least keep interest in the Pro12 alive in Wales.

marty2086 wrote:

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:The Welsh regions will not want to drop a home derby fixture. This I can guarantee you.

Even if they were going to get even more money from the increase in tv revenue? Really?

Damn straight.  Look at the regional attendances, and listen to the majority of the regional fans (sepecially during the HEC/RCC war), the derby games are the most important fixtures of the season.

Says a lot about the mentality in Wales then, need to break out of your own bubble

Personally I think the best approach is increased fixtures for the coming season and then revert to conferences after that if/when they add some N. American teams

Yes have to agree with you there Marty on the approach to the next 2 seasons, I would go down the 1/2 of each countries into each Conference, playing each team in your own League Home and Away and every other team in the opposite League once, that would guarantee 9 home games and possibly 10.

Lord you need to look at Kingshu's figures further up the page, the only home derby worth a lot to us is the Scarlets, the other 2 is only about break even. The games against the SA Franchises for the Welsh or any other Country in which only 2 play both away, could be played on successive weekends, the other 2 would only play them once away and twice at home.

As both Browne and Dodson say to carry on with the status quo is NOT an option, something HAS to change, lets embrace this change and see where it takes us.

mikey_dragon wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:The Welsh regions will not want to drop a home derby fixture. This I can guarantee you.

Even if they were going to get even more money from the increase in tv revenue? Really?

Damn straight.  Look at the regional attendances, and listen to the majority of the regional fans (sepecially during the HEC/RCC war), the derby games are the most important fixtures of the season.

Says a lot about the mentality in Wales then, need to break out of your own bubble

Personally I think the best approach is increased fixtures for the coming season and then revert to conferences after that if/when they add some N. American teams

So why don't the Irish axe their local derbies then?

All the proposed solutions have had the Irish lose as many Derbies as the Welsh, theres no axe Welsh Derbies keep Irish ones, being suggested.

mikey_dragon wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:The Welsh regions will not want to drop a home derby fixture. This I can guarantee you.

Even if they were going to get even more money from the increase in tv revenue? Really?

Damn straight.  Look at the regional attendances, and listen to the majority of the regional fans (sepecially during the HEC/RCC war), the derby games are the most important fixtures of the season.

Says a lot about the mentality in Wales then, need to break out of your own bubble

Personally I think the best approach is increased fixtures for the coming season and then revert to conferences after that if/when they add some N. American teams

So why don't the Irish axe their local derbies then?

As already spoken about, the Irish would lose derbies

marty2086 wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:The Welsh regions will not want to drop a home derby fixture. This I can guarantee you.

Even if they were going to get even more money from the increase in tv revenue? Really?

Damn straight.  Look at the regional attendances, and listen to the majority of the regional fans (sepecially during the HEC/RCC war), the derby games are the most important fixtures of the season.

Says a lot about the mentality in Wales then, need to break out of your own bubble

Personally I think the best approach is increased fixtures for the coming season and then revert to conferences after that if/when they add some N. American teams

So why don't the Irish axe their local derbies then?

As already spoken about, the Irish would lose derbies

Every Country would if each Conference was split down the middle

wayne wrote:Lord you need to look at Kingshu's figures further up the page, the only home derby worth a lot to us is the Scarlets, the other 2 is only about break even. The games against the SA Franchises for the Welsh or any other Country in which only 2 play both away, could be played on successive weekends, the other 2 would only play them once away and twice at home.

Wayne, I am more concerned about the interest in the Pro12 in Wales, it's not exactly popular. By reducing the Welsh derbies we are reducing the opportunities to attract the casual fans, also, what then happens to judgement day ?

Look I am not opposed to all these new ideas, I just do not want them at a cost to the regions.

LordDowlais wrote:

wayne wrote:Lord you need to look at Kingshu's figures further up the page, the only home derby worth a lot to us is the Scarlets, the other 2 is only about break even. The games against the SA Franchises for the Welsh or any other Country in which only 2 play both away, could be played on successive weekends, the other 2 would only play them once away and twice at home.

Wayne, I am more concerned about the interest in the Pro12 in Wales, it's not exactly popular. By reducing the Welsh derbies we are reducing the opportunities to attract the casual fans, also, what then happens to judgement day ?

Look I am not opposed to all these new ideas, I just do not want them at a cost to the regions.

The additions of the SA franchises has the potential to increase interest, there are nearly 200k South Africans living the UK. That's a market that can be tapped into and grow the game

marty2086 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

wayne wrote:Lord you need to look at Kingshu's figures further up the page, the only home derby worth a lot to us is the Scarlets, the other 2 is only about break even. The games against the SA Franchises for the Welsh or any other Country in which only 2 play both away, could be played on successive weekends, the other 2 would only play them once away and twice at home.

Wayne, I am more concerned about the interest in the Pro12 in Wales, it's not exactly popular. By reducing the Welsh derbies we are reducing the opportunities to attract the casual fans, also, what then happens to judgement day ?

Look I am not opposed to all these new ideas, I just do not want them at a cost to the regions.

The additions of the SA franchises has the potential to increase interest, there are nearly 200k South Africans living the UK. That's a market that can be tapped into and grow the game

There's loads of saffers in London too - it might work out having them play 'home' games somewhere London based as has been suggested. Harlequins might be a better option - there are loads of saffers where I live in south west London.

LordDowlais wrote:

wayne wrote:Lord you need to look at Kingshu's figures further up the page, the only home derby worth a lot to us is the Scarlets, the other 2 is only about break even. The games against the SA Franchises for the Welsh or any other Country in which only 2 play both away, could be played on successive weekends, the other 2 would only play them once away and twice at home.

Wayne, I am more concerned about the interest in the Pro12 in Wales, it's not exactly popular. By reducing the Welsh derbies we are reducing the opportunities to attract the casual fans, also, what then happens to judgement day ?

Look I am not opposed to all these new ideas, I just do not want them at a cost to the regions.

The two Welsh team in the same conference would play each other home and away, the two cross conference games could be arranged as two double headers, i.e. Judgement day and Judgement day 2 each season. It could actually be a benefit for the regions?

[quote="LordDowlais"]

wayne wrote:Lord you need to look at Kingshu's figures further up the page, the only home derby worth a lot to us is the Scarlets, the other 2 is only about break even. The games against the SA Franchises for the Welsh or any other Country in which only 2 play both away, could be played on successive weekends, the other 2 would only play them once away and twice at home.

Wayne, I am more concerned about the interest in the Pro12 in Wales, it's not exactly popular. By reducing the Welsh derbies we are reducing the opportunities to attract the casual fans, also, what then happens to judgement day ?

Look I am not opposed to all these new ideas, I just do not want them at a cost to the regions. [/quote ]

I can see where you are coming from LD, in the split Conferences there will be 2 Welsh Regions in each, Judgement Day (which is great in my eyes) could be the the 2 from the same Conferences play each other or the cross matches offer the same result. If we take last seasons finishing positions in the League as a template with 1 and 4 in one and 2 and 3 as the other it would have Scarlets and Dragons in one and Ospreys and Blues the other, or it could be 1 and 3 as against 2 and 4, whichever way we would lose a match with the Scarlets and one against either Blues or Dragons, the amount of monies being banded about would over compensate for the loss of the Scarlets, and we would make massive profits compared to either Dragons or Blues NOT coming to us.

We have to try something, the status quo is not an option.

RDW_Scotland wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

wayne wrote:Lord you need to look at Kingshu's figures further up the page, the only home derby worth a lot to us is the Scarlets, the other 2 is only about break even. The games against the SA Franchises for the Welsh or any other Country in which only 2 play both away, could be played on successive weekends, the other 2 would only play them once away and twice at home.

Wayne, I am more concerned about the interest in the Pro12 in Wales, it's not exactly popular. By reducing the Welsh derbies we are reducing the opportunities to attract the casual fans, also, what then happens to judgement day ?

Look I am not opposed to all these new ideas, I just do not want them at a cost to the regions.

The additions of the SA franchises has the potential to increase interest, there are nearly 200k South Africans living the UK. That's a market that can be tapped into and grow the game

There's loads of saffers in London too - it might work out having them play 'home' games somewhere London based as has been suggested.  Harlequins might be a better option - there are loads of saffers where I live in south west London.

Depending on the setup, as I suggested previously, if we end up with an increase in fixtures for this season. Having the SA teams play away fixtures in Wales, Italy and Ireland during the AIs might be a smart marketing strategy or as you say at Quins the weekend of BaaBaas/NZ game

Did no one read Tom Humphries?

TommyBoy wrote:
Already, behind the scenes, a provisional format for a new Pro14 is being put together. There are different scenarios but the most probable is that the 14 teams are split into two divisions of seven - two Irish, two Welsh, one Scottish, one Italian and one South African.

They'd play home and away - 12 games. All the regular local derbies would exist on top of that. Instead of two rounds of the 1872 Cup between Glasgow and Edinburgh there would be three. Play-offs would continue and fewer games would be played in international windows.

Play your conference home and away PLUS the local derbies. There will be more of them not less.

No one really haas mentioned the SA London games. I have read that Saracens are limited on number of games they can play at Allianz Park a year so its not an option.

However some games in London would be great for the League?

Could Southern Kings V Munster + Cheetahs V Scarlets be arranged as a big double header?

The Potential to really grow the League is huge.

Kingshu wrote:No one really haas mentioned the SA London games. I have read that Saracens are limited on number of games they can play at Allianz Park a year so its not an option.

However some games in London would be great for the League?

Could Southern Kings V Munster + Cheetahs V Scarlets be arranged as a big double header?

The Potential to really grow the League is huge.

The complication you run into there is the RFU, so they may need some form of payment to allow it to happen

Play your conference home and away. Play the other teams from your country in the other conference home and away. Play the rest home or away. 20 or 21 games

As well as being a complicated league structure for fans to understand and buy into it also means that teams within the league won't be playing the same fixtures as each other. Foe example Glasgow will play Edinburgh 3 times but other teams in their conference will only play Edinburgh once. Of course this may balance out but it still isn't ideal if there is an imbalance in the quality of opposition that one team played over another one when the final league standings are complete.

RDW_Scotland wrote:As well as being a complicated league structure for fans to understand and buy into it also means that teams within the league won't be playing the same fixtures as each other. Foe example Glasgow will play Edinburgh 3 times but other teams in their conference will only play Edinburgh once. Of course this may balance out but it still isn't ideal if there is an imbalance in the quality of opposition that one team played over another one when the final league standings are complete.

Technically yes, but is that any less unfair than Glasgow having to play Ospreys during the six nations? Glasgow can lose up to the entirety of the first team depending how useless Edinburgh are at that particular point. Ospreys by comparison lose far less and we're tipped to win the title early last season. Regardless of the format, to be the champs you need to be consistently good throughout the year and beat the best along the way.

This is all a bit of a gamble but fair play to the Pro12 and the club chairmen for thinking outside the box.

Eejit wrote:

RDW_Scotland wrote:As well as being a complicated league structure for fans to understand and buy into it also means that teams within the league won't be playing the same fixtures as each other. Foe example Glasgow will play Edinburgh 3 times but other teams in their conference will only play Edinburgh once. Of course this may balance out but it still isn't ideal if there is an imbalance in the quality of opposition that one team played over another one when the final league standings are complete.

Technically yes, but is that any less unfair than Glasgow having to play Ospreys during the six nations? Glasgow can lose up to the entirety of the first team depending how useless Edinburgh are at that particular point. Ospreys by comparison lose far less and we're tipped to win the title early last season. Regardless of the format, to be the champs you need to be consistently good throughout the year and beat the best along the way.

This is all a bit of a gamble but fair play to the Pro12 and the club chairmen for thinking outside the box.

I suppose it would work if there was an even split within each county, which I'm not sure there is.

Scotland

Glasgow - Top 4 capable
Edinburgh - bottom 6 team

Ireland
Munster - Top 4 capable
Leinster - Top 4 capable
Ulster - Top 6 capable
Connacht - mid table

Wales
Ospreys - Top 4 capable
Scarlets - Top 4 capable
Blues - Top 6 capable
Dragons - bottom 6 team

Italy

Both crap


So whoever has Glasgow will be tougher than the conference with Edinburgh. And if one conference had say Ospreys and Dragons and one had Scarlets and Blues then the 2nd conference would be harder than the first.  Similarly whichever conference had Munster/Leinster + Ulster would be harder than the one with Connacht (although there's less between Ulster and Connacht).

Similarly it sounds like the Kings are pretty gash (bottom 6 team) whereas the Cheetah's a a bit better so could end more competitive - there might be an imbalance in the conferences if they aren't comparable,

LordDowlais wrote:

wayne wrote:Lord you need to look at Kingshu's figures further up the page, the only home derby worth a lot to us is the Scarlets, the other 2 is only about break even. The games against the SA Franchises for the Welsh or any other Country in which only 2 play both away, could be played on successive weekends, the other 2 would only play them once away and twice at home.

Wayne, I am more concerned about the interest in the Pro12 in Wales, it's not exactly popular. By reducing the Welsh derbies we are reducing the opportunities to attract the casual fans, also, what then happens to judgement day ?

Look I am not opposed to all these new ideas, I just do not want them at a cost to the regions.

Isn't it Judgement Day you don't want to lose. It seems to me to be a bit of a fudge as well as both teams that it is a home game for, get an attendance of 60K (or whatever).

St John The Enforcer wrote:Play your conference home and away. Play the other teams from your country in the other conference home and away. Play the rest home or away. 20 or 21 games

This.

Also have to go with ScarletSpiderman proposal of having one conference with all Irish sides and the other with the Welsh ones. I would split Scottish and SA sides.

Those would be my preferred conferences:

Leinster
Munster
Ulster
Connacht
Edinburgh
Kings
Zebre

Scarlets
Ospreys
Blues
Dragons
Glasgow
Cheetahs
Treviso

Top 3 in each qualifies, n°3 plays n°2 of the other conference to determine who plays n°1. That way there is huge incentive to finish 1st of your conference.

Has anyone seen Cheetahs and Kings over the weekend? They would easily add to the league and play a great brand of rugby, Kings beat a team away from home comprising almost exclusively of Argies internationalists.

I am afraid everyone is going to have to give a bit this year from the sounds of it. This year is going to be a mess and next year, the addition of 2 additional teams being mooted, the structure will be much improved. It is a short term pain for potential medium/long term goals.

As for evening out the conferences, it goes in spurts. Munster looked finished the season before last and were the worst Irish province...followed by a renaissance with Erasmus.

Sin é wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

wayne wrote:Lord you need to look at Kingshu's figures further up the page, the only home derby worth a lot to us is the Scarlets, the other 2 is only about break even. The games against the SA Franchises for the Welsh or any other Country in which only 2 play both away, could be played on successive weekends, the other 2 would only play them once away and twice at home.

Wayne, I am more concerned about the interest in the Pro12 in Wales, it's not exactly popular. By reducing the Welsh derbies we are reducing the opportunities to attract the casual fans, also, what then happens to judgement day ?

Look I am not opposed to all these new ideas, I just do not want them at a cost to the regions.

Isn't it Judgement Day you don't want to lose. It seems to me to be a bit of a fudge as well as both teams that it is a home game for, get an attendance of 60K (or whatever).

There is no need to lose Judgement Day Sin, as I've explained further up, I believe that the attendance is split in half for each Home team so aprox. 30000 each, it meant for the season as a whole Cardiff Blues just pipped us as the best supported Region, whereas if the game had been played at CAP, they would have been way behind.

[quote="VinceWLB"]

St John The Enforcer wrote:Play your conference home and away. Play the other teams from your country in the other conference home and away. Play the rest home or away. 20 or 21 games

This.

Sorry this wouldn't work as the Welsh and Irish have 4 teams and the others have 2, the Welsh and Irish would play more games than the other 3 Countries.

wayne wrote:

As both Browne and Dodson say to carry on with the status quo is NOT an option, something HAS to change, lets embrace this change and see where it takes us.  

Many fans, especially some loud ones on social media have been saying "something has to change regarding the Pro12" for about 5 seasons now. They've been shot down time and time again. Now it looks like they were right.

RugbyFan100 wrote:

wayne wrote:

As both Browne and Dodson say to carry on with the status quo is NOT an option, something HAS to change, lets embrace this change and see where it takes us.  

Many fans, especially some loud ones on social media have been saying "something has to change regarding the Pro12" for about 5 seasons now. They've been shot down time and time again. Now it looks like they were right.

Pretty much everyone have said changes are needed, from fans to the Pro12

RugbyFan100 wrote:

wayne wrote:

As both Browne and Dodson say to carry on with the status quo is NOT an option, something HAS to change, lets embrace this change and see where it takes us.  

Many fans, especially some loud ones on social media have been saying "something has to change regarding the Pro12" for about 5 seasons now. They've been shot down time and time again. Now it looks like they were right.

The problem is that many fans have been asking for a change, but NOT this option, it is for our countrymen (Welsh) to join with the English, and that patently is NOT happening, so NO they are NOT RIGHT.

BBC article has some important points:

The Pro12 already has too many uncompetitive teams and one of the pre-requisites of the deal would be that the decidedly underwhelming Cheetahs - who average just less than 8,000 fans per home game in a stadium that holds 48,000 - and the flops that are the Kings - who bring in just 7,000 per game in a ground that holds almost 49,000 - would be beefed-up by transplanted Springboks.

Quite how SARU are going to remove talents from the Stormers, the Bulls, the Sharks and the Lions without there being an uprising in Cape Town, Pretoria, Durban and Johannesburg is anybody's guess. That's what they will need to sign up to, though. There's potentially a mountainous in-tray and precious little time to get through it. If Friday happens the way Pro12 officials think it may, they'd have eight weeks until the new league is supposed to start.

Get Gregor Townsend to select the teams for each conference. The Toonie tombola would be completely unpredictable and hence ensure fairness, though he is likely to play teams out of position, with all of the Treviso home games taking place at Thomond park and with games against South African teams only taking place on prime number dates.

Still, it would all be fun...

RugbyFan100 wrote:BBC article has some important points:

The Pro12 already has too many uncompetitive teams and one of the pre-requisites of the deal would be that the decidedly underwhelming Cheetahs - who average just less than 8,000 fans per home game in a stadium that holds 48,000 - and the flops that are the Kings - who bring in just 7,000 per game in a ground that holds almost 49,000 - would be beefed-up by transplanted Springboks.

Quite how SARU are going to remove talents from the Stormers, the Bulls, the Sharks and the Lions without there being an uprising in Cape Town, Pretoria, Durban and Johannesburg is anybody's guess. That's what they will need to sign up to, though. There's potentially a mountainous in-tray and precious little time to get through it. If Friday happens the way Pro12 officials think it may, they'd have eight weeks until the new league is supposed to start.

Suggestions for that have already been made on here, the Springbok players who head to Japan etc can play in the Pro12 during the Super Rugby off season

As for the attendances, with the Pro 12 taking place during the Super Rugby off season it has the potential to boost attendances as it will essentially be the only game in town for large periods

What will be even more interesting is how the conferences are arranged in subsequent years.

Assuming for a moment that there are no more teams added / removed, are the conferenced fixed; or variable?  I would suggest that they should be variable year on year.  So, say each team plays its fellow conference teams home and away, and the other conference home or away.  That gives 19 games.  The top two in each go into the play-offs.  Then each other team plays its equal ranked equivalent in the other conference home and away to give the overall rankings.

This is then used for (1) ERC qualification (leaving aside again the question of the non-European sides); and (2) to rank the conferences for the next year.  So you start off with an arbitrary split, but in year two and onwards the conferences are formed of the odd and the even finishers in the prior year.  OK, this could completely mess up the local derbies, or it could add to them.  But it is the most meritocratic way of looking at it, as well as adding a couple more meaningful games for everyone at the season end.

Thoughts?

marty2086 wrote:

Suggestions for that have already been made on here, the Springbok players who head to Japan etc can play in the Pro12 during the Super Rugby off season

Not sure how that stands up regarding player welfare. Pretty long season for them.
Presumably that is a lot of rolling players coming in and out of squads too. A coaches nightmare.

RugbyFan100 wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

Suggestions for that have already been made on here, the Springbok players who head to Japan etc can play in the Pro12 during the Super Rugby off season

Not sure how that stands up regarding player welfare. Pretty long season for them.
Presumably that is a lot of rolling players coming in and out of squads too. A coaches nightmare.

They already go to Japan to play in the Super Rugby off season, Will Skelton played for Sarries last season in the off season, Taute and Deysel both went into Munster too

demosthenes wrote:What will be even more interesting is how the conferences are arranged in subsequent years.

Assuming for a moment that there are no more teams added / removed, are the conferenced fixed; or variable?  I would suggest that they should be variable year on year.  So, say each team plays its fellow conference teams home and away, and the other conference home or away.  That gives 19 games.  The top two in each go into the play-offs.  Then each other team plays its equal ranked equivalent in the other conference home and away to give the overall rankings.

This is then used for (1) ERC qualification (leaving aside again the question of the non-European sides); and (2) to rank the conferences for the next year.  So you start off with an arbitrary split, but in year two and onwards the conferences are formed of the odd and the even finishers in the prior year.  OK, this could completely mess up the local derbies, or it could add to them.  But it is the most meritocratic way of looking at it, as well as adding a couple more meaningful games for everyone at the season end.

Thoughts?

Not a bad idea but the ranking could mean not so practical teams distribution in conferences. Imagine only one Welsh or one Irish team in one conference, this would be a disaster..

I think it would be the best to have one conference with all the Irish sides and the other one with the Welsh. In super rugby i thought it was a terrible idea when they decided to have SA teams in 2 different conferences.

marty2086 wrote:

RugbyFan100 wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

Suggestions for that have already been made on here, the Springbok players who head to Japan etc can play in the Pro12 during the Super Rugby off season

Not sure how that stands up regarding player welfare. Pretty long season for them.
Presumably that is a lot of rolling players coming in and out of squads too. A coaches nightmare.

They already go to Japan to play in the Super Rugby off season, Will Skelton played for Sarries last season in the off season, Taute and Deysel both went into Munster too

Maybe the Pro12 will be happy with that arrangement then. Lets just hope that whatever this leads to is a long term positive for the celtic countries.

May not be how it works but would make sense for everyone

VinceWLB wrote:

demosthenes wrote:What will be even more interesting is how the conferences are arranged in subsequent years.

Assuming for a moment that there are no more teams added / removed, are the conferenced fixed; or variable?  I would suggest that they should be variable year on year.  So, say each team plays its fellow conference teams home and away, and the other conference home or away.  That gives 19 games.  The top two in each go into the play-offs.  Then each other team plays its equal ranked equivalent in the other conference home and away to give the overall rankings.

This is then used for (1) ERC qualification (leaving aside again the question of the non-European sides); and (2) to rank the conferences for the next year.  So you start off with an arbitrary split, but in year two and onwards the conferences are formed of the odd and the even finishers in the prior year.  OK, this could completely mess up the local derbies, or it could add to them.  But it is the most meritocratic way of looking at it, as well as adding a couple more meaningful games for everyone at the season end.

Thoughts?

Not a bad idea but the ranking could mean not so practical teams distribution in conferences. Imagine only one Welsh or one Irish team in one conference, this would be a disaster..

I think it would be the best to have one conference with all the Irish sides and the other one with the Welsh. In super rugby i thought it was a terrible idea when they decided to have SA teams in 2 different conferences.

In some ways I don't disagree with you, and can certainly see the point from a financial perspective. But I do think that it would get a bit stale quite quickly. Almost a case of 'oh, them - again!'. Part of the attraction of the European cups is the chance to see / play against teams different to your usual opponents.

This and next season will be a bit messy. With every team getting an extra £500,000/800,000 I wonder will we see a few sudden signings, hope the Italians use the money wisely in coaching or some good players.

Kingshu wrote:This and next season will be a bit messy. With every team getting an extra £500,000/800,000 I wonder will we see a few sudden signings, hope the Italians use the money wisely in coaching or some good players.

Woah is it worth that much! Cheetahs and Kings come on in, would you like a mug of tae?

This opens a lot of options.

If the 2 weak clubs from SA start getting a good deal from Pro12 and potential involvement in ERCC competition, what's to say that the rest of the SA clubs don't start getting grumpy with the Ozzies taking their revenues in super rugby and looking to transfer over as well?

When are the next negotiations between the PRL and RFU? The majority of welsh would like into the Jeff/Championship. The last lot of HCup negotiations showed as much.

Switch out the welsh for bokke, potential in NA, figure out a cohesive plan for Italy. Challenging times but great potential.

thebandwagonsociety wrote:

Kingshu wrote:This and next season will be a bit messy. With every team getting an extra £500,000/800,000 I wonder will we see a few sudden signings, hope the Italians use the money wisely in coaching or some good players.

Woah is it worth that much!  Cheetahs and Kings come on in, would you like a mug of tae?

The current pro12 TV contract runs out at the end of next season. Then we could see a lot more money flowing into the league and having one less derby per season could become insignificant.


BTW, Kings beat Jaguares at the weekend away from home and also beat the Waratahs away a few weeks ago so they're not Zebre in case people were wondering.

Do the Super Rugby teams in SA still have to adhere to the racial quotas or is just the Springboks these days?

They are currently 12th and 15th in the super 18 both ahead of Bulls, sun wolves and rebels, so shouldn't be like the Italians.

Is the £500,000/£800,000 per team just for this year, and then everything will be re done with the end of our TV deal and introduction of US/CAD sides?

£500,000 is nice, but still insufficient.

EPCR has announced that they have sold the pay tv rights to BT from 2018/19, so that should see a boost in revenue for everyone.

They have reserved the free to air rights after a trial in France was successful and saw a boost in income.

So it looks like things are looking brighter for everyone

marty2086 wrote:EPCR has announced that they have sold the pay tv rights to BT from 2018/19, so that should see a boost in revenue for everyone.

Especially Aviva Premiership rugby fans, who now don't have to pay for sky tv for any of their domestic rugby.

RugbyFan100 wrote:

marty2086 wrote:EPCR has announced that they have sold the pay tv rights to BT from 2018/19, so that should see a boost in revenue for everyone.

Especially Aviva Premiership rugby fans, who now don't have to pay for sky tv for any of their domestic rugby.

Well it seems not many of them are paying for BT anyway to watch

marty2086 wrote:EPCR has announced that they have sold the pay tv rights to BT from 2018/19, so that should see a boost in revenue for everyone.

They have reserved the free to air rights after a trial in France was successful and saw a boost in income.

So it looks like things are looking brighter for everyone

Someone over on Munsterfans is saying that the deal is 20% less than the combined BT/Sky deal that was in operation.

Given they haven't announced figures that's entirely possible