Lions 2017 - Name your team, captain and whatever else you want to harp on about

First topic message reminder :

My wishlist:

I hope AWJ is named captain to keep the Irish and English lads in check.
I hope Robshaw gets picked, he deserves to tour at least once at this point.
I hope the refereeing is strictly on a level playing field.
I hope NZ are made accountable for any incidents where they break anyone's collarbone and put them out of the game for 13 months.
The Lions to be at the very least competitive and win one of the first two tests.
I'd like to see Tadhg Furlong get a run out.
Would like to see an uncapped player in the squad.
No charity caps, Tom court, Shane Williams etc.
I hope Gatland comes up with a much more interesting and variable game plan than on the last Lions tour.
Dylan Hartley calls a ref the C word on the last day of the six nations and misses the tour.

George Carlin wrote:
Two of the very few positions in the backline that I think must be nailed on are 12 Henshaw and 13 Joseph and I would not lose either of those two in order to accommodate Farrell at 12 in the same way that he plays for England. Fekitoa would run through him all day. I would never, ever play specialists out of position and both Ford and Farrell play at 10 for their club.

I have read so many times how X, Y or Z are going to run through Farrell and yet they never seem to actually do it.

If Ford is chosen at 10 I would think Farrell will be 12. Ford plays so much better with that type of player outside him to take some pressure off.
If Sexton starts then it'll be one of Roberts, Henshaw or Dunbar as Sexton isn't keen on the dirty side of the game and prefers a unit outside him to truck up.
It won't be Russell or Biggar.
Outside centre looks to be Joseph ATM but if the coaches want a substitute in a similar mold then Huw Jones (providing he backs up his AI form) or Ringrose (ditto) might be the surprise choices.
Back three is tough . Liam Williams or Hogg at FB then two from Watson , Seymour, May, North or Nowell.
Tough on Halfpenny but I think there are better players in the positions he covers.If they need a kicker then he plays and one of the wingers drop out.

Murray at scrumhalf . I like both Welsh boys but they can be a bit up and down.

I'll get someone else to pick the forwards because I think that's where the real selection headaches are. Too many great players not going to get in the team.

You know - I think if Jones had to choose one out of Farrell and Ford he'd go for Farrell.

Having said that Ford is a magician. He doesn't always seem to do much, but somehow England play an awful lot better when he's there, despite the useless attacking 12 he usually works with.

Heuer27 wrote:If Ford is chosen at 10 I would think Farrell will be 12. Ford plays so much better with that type of player outside him to take some pressure off.
If Sexton starts then it'll be one of Roberts, Henshaw or Dunbar as Sexton isn't keen on the dirty side of the game and prefers a unit outside him to truck up.
It won't be Russell or Biggar.
Outside centre looks to be Joseph ATM but if the coaches want a substitute in a similar mold then Huw Jones (providing he backs up his AI form) or Ringrose (ditto) might be the surprise choices.
Back three is tough . Liam Williams or Hogg at FB then two from Watson , Seymour, May, North or Nowell.
Tough on Halfpenny but I think there are better players in the positions he covers.If they need a kicker then he plays and one of the wingers drop out.

Murray at scrumhalf . I like both Welsh boys but they can be a bit up and down.

I'll get someone else to pick the forwards because I think that's where the real selection headaches are. Too many great players not going to get in the team.

Not sure what Sexton you have been watching, but he absolutely relishes the contact. In fact, many wish he would be more sensible due to his history of concussion injuries.

Having bad tackling technique and relishing contact are two separate things. Hence the big lump outside him to protect him.

One of the things I got thinking about when I was supposed to be working was the idea of a team where an individual country has to provide either one or two of the constituent groups i.e (Front row, Second Row, Back Row, Half-Backs, Centres, Back three)

What I came up with was:

McGrath, Best, Furlong
Itoje, Kruis
Warbruton, Tipuric, Faletau
Murray, Sexton
Dunbar, Jones
Williams, North, Halfpenny

Heuer27 wrote:Having bad tackling technique and relishing contact are two separate things. Hence the big lump outside him to protect him.

He has openly talked of enjoying the physical aspect of the game, hence why he proves it each week and is well known for it. He is tenacious in defence and takes the ball to the line if there is nothing on. Not to mention his willingness to take the big/late hit to put another player in a good position. The problem is the successive damage this sort of style of play has had on his body.

Yes.  As I've said quite a number of times, sometimes I think it is Sexton's defensive ferocity that I often enjoy more in a game.  There are times when he looks possessed in his intensity to add to that defensive wall with honesty and often takes on even more responsibility than is required, even by Joe Schmidt's tough system of all hands doing the dirty grunt work with no fancy-dan exceptions.

Sexton has had a bad run of injuries but in a career, runs of bad luck in that department can happen (just look at Wilkinson).  But he's the temperament to do the whole deal.

Just a few names I would personally like to see go, not a full squad:

Sexton, as SecretFly says, has the temperament/desire/competitive edge. A decent run of games in the Six Nations and no long term injuries I think he starts, provided he doesn't pick up an injury in any of the mid week games. Which may be optimistic given recent injury issues.

Agree with Miaow regarding the front row. Mako is a bit of a luxury but should tour; when push comes to shove, literally, you are going to want your strongest scrimmaging front row out there. Hartley, Best, George as hookers satisfy that criteria with George offering the bit of x factor as well as similar, if not quite as good, line out stats I think? Actual props I am afraid I am pretty clueless...Cole getting some mentions as has plenty of experience, rarely goes backwards. Scots seems to have a few good options in Nel, Fagerson, then the young Furlong who won't be fazed given his recent outings against the AB's, nor Jack McGrath.

Second row: Similar tactics to most international teams, a more athletic, line out and round the park option and a grunt man to carry consistently, make tackles in the tight and offer all round work rate. Itoje fits the bill, probably with AWJ, although not that heavyweight. Jonny Gray in with a shout for some ballast, tackling, line out work etc. Kruis/Launchbury/Donnacha Ryan lurking as well.

Back row: would say the two shoe ins unfortunately play in the same position, Faletau and Vunipola. Both capable of taking the game to All Blacks. Billy more explosive but Faletau the better work rate. After that anyone's guess. May seem like a luxury taking two out and out 8's, but with lots of the other back row options capable or with experience of playing both 6/7, a luxury we can afford. Think Tipuric a bit lightweight for the forward battle if we want supremacy, can appreciate what else he offers round the park though. Haskell an option if he can rediscover his Aus form and is told to tackle and carry all day. Stander a man for the battle.

9/10: Murray, Youngs, Webb. Sexton, Ford, Farrell.

Centres: JJ. Henshaw. A Scottish centre (see who plays in Six Nations, too many options), like the look of Jones.

Wings: North, Nowell (might be a little controversial but doesn't make many mistakes).

FB: Anyone's guess. Arguments have been made for Hogg, Liam Williams and Halfpenny. Not sure about Hogg from a consistency perspective, no doubt he adds some sparkle.

Sounds dull bit would like to see a team with players who are very consistent and make few mistakes. AB's thrive on that. Guys who can handle the pressure and not crumble, and then have the ability to execute when the opportunity arises will be essential.

As we've seen in previous years a good six nations (or bad) can see you called up (or dropped) from the selectors thinking.  

So can anyone put a new name forward that can force their way into the squad?

I'll start with Scott Williams, his form for the Scarlets the last year should see him start at 12 instead of Roberts.  When given an opportunity for Wales has never taken it but I feel he has the quality to make a mark on this years tournament.  Also I don't think the centres outside of JJ are assured their place

He was excellent against Saracens. Powerful with some subtle touches, a bit more like Roberts in his prime! Don't get to see much Pro 12 but he does get good reviews, hopefully gets picked to start and brings that form to the 6 Nations.

Inside centre could be a position of strength, if you include Farrell as a 10/12 option with Henshaw, Bennett, Dunbar, S. Williams. Can you afford to take 2 out and out 12's if Farrell is there as cover? Can or have any of the aforementioned played 13 at all?

lostinwales wrote:You know - I think if Jones had to choose one out of Farrell and Ford he'd go for Farrell.

Having said that Ford is a magician. He doesn't always seem to do much, but somehow England play an awful lot better when he's there, despite the useless attacking 12 he usually works with.

Am totally with you on that one.

Huw Jones had an excellent autumn and hopefully continues that form into the six nations (just not on the 25th) but the other Scotland centres, to me, apart from good games against Italy haven't done much at international level, not compared to Henshaw or JJ and feel they are in the same boat as S Williams who have scintillating club form but not yet transferred it to international level (apart from the odd good game).

Whilst I think Dunbar is an exceptional player for Glasgow (and I think Bennett is overhyped), I'd go for Henshaw and Farrell atm for 12

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

Heuer27 wrote:If Ford is chosen at 10 I would think Farrell will be 12. Ford plays so much better with that type of player outside him to take some pressure off.
If Sexton starts then it'll be one of Roberts, Henshaw or Dunbar as Sexton isn't keen on the dirty side of the game and prefers a unit outside him to truck up.
It won't be Russell or Biggar.
Outside centre looks to be Joseph ATM but if the coaches want a substitute in a similar mold then Huw Jones (providing he backs up his AI form) or Ringrose (ditto) might be the surprise choices.
Back three is tough . Liam Williams or Hogg at FB then two from Watson , Seymour, May, North or Nowell.
Tough on Halfpenny but I think there are better players in the positions he covers.If they need a kicker then he plays and one of the wingers drop out.

Murray at scrumhalf . I like both Welsh boys but they can be a bit up and down.

I'll get someone else to pick the forwards because I think that's where the real selection headaches are. Too many great players not going to get in the team.

Not sure what Sexton you have been watching, but he absolutely relishes the contact. In fact, many wish he would be more sensible due to his history of concussion injuries.

One big hit on Ford in 2015 pretty much won the game.

True Raven wrote:Huw Jones had an excellent autumn and hopefully continues that form into the six nations (just not on the 25th) but the other Scotland centres, to me, apart from good games against Italy haven't done much at international level, not compared to Henshaw or JJ and feel they are in the same boat as S Williams who have scintillating club form but not yet transferred it to international level (apart from the odd good game).

Whilst I think Dunbar is an exceptional player for Glasgow (and I think Bennett is overhyped), I'd go for Henshaw and Farrell atm for 12

Scotland fans are keen to seen Duncan Taylor and Huw Jones partner up for this 6 N.

Both big, strong footballers with great balance and both playing well for Sarries and the Stormers (albeit Taylor just back from injury) - that could be a special combination.

True Raven wrote:

This thread has now been hijacked by people having a go at TJ because he doesnt rate Farrell

I don't see it this way at all.

People are having a go at TJ because he is saying things that are untrue. Like saying things didn't happen in a game that blatantly did (or is the untruth that he watched the game in the first place?).

He has also presented one reason for disliking Farrell and then immediately contradicted himself in the next post.

Now TJ or anyone else is perfectly entitled to his opinion, but if he is using untruths or is muddled in his reasoning, then he should be called on these logical fallacies. This is the absolute essence of meaningful debate.

Not my quote.

I think EVERYONE is just showing their nationalistic bias. And I don't mean that in a bad way. I think it's just human nature. Or perhaps more simply it's just to do with watching a lot more of a player from your own team/country than another, and also having an in built dislike for that player (perhaps without really knowing it) and not wanting them to do well as a result of not wanting them to do well against your team during the 6 nations. There must be some hangover from wanting to beat opposition players in the 6N, wanting a player to mess up against your team, to then tying to decide whether they would go in your Lions team. That's what makes Lions selection so intriguing and difficult to discuss.

So non-English don't seem to rate Farrell as much as the English do; non-scots don't seem to rate Russell that much; non-Welsh don't seem to rate Biggar either, etc., etc. (although I have to say I haven't seen too many Welsh people calling for Biggar to be honest ).

Nationalistic Bias has got nothing to do with it. That is not the issue here.

If someone makes a point, they should make it properly. Doesn't matter what that point is, which nationality they are, which nationality the subject of the post is, anything.

If you make a point badly you're not adding anything to the debate and this whole thing (606v2, not just this thread) becomes a a waste of time.

Sorry 7 1/2, fixed this now

True Raven wrote:...So can anyone put a new name forward that can force their way into the squad?...

If players aren't selected for the Six Nations, then it'll be next to impossible for someone to make an impact. The only other prominent stage to do so will be Europe. If Saracens and Wasps advance, then Wade & Ashton might have a chance to impress but Gatland isn't short of wings, and neither of those players can cover other positions. Not sure who among the Irish teams/Glasgow would fit that kind of description.

These are the Scottish centres for the 6 Nations: Mark Bennett, Alex Dunbar, Huw Jones, Matt Scott and Duncan Taylor. An embarrassment of riches, think they could have done with a few when you had Graeme Morrison and Sean Lamont in the midfield!

All of those are in theory contenders for the Lions, but of course- much like Scott Williams- whoever doesn't get picked won't travel. The centres will be one area where 6 Nations form will be paramount: there are no obvious starters from any country, and I include Jospeh and Henshaw there, despite them being perhaps a nose in front for many.

Jamie Roberts is still the best at what he does, and Gatland loves that rugby league still first phase carry from his 12 to set up the play. I expect Roberts to be given ample opportunity to play himself into the Lions squad, and whether he manages it on not, Scott Williams will suffer by either not starting in the XV, or being pushed to 13 to accommodate him.

Jamie's best at what he does is a getting less and less dynamic as he gets older. That's not to say that age is the only factor that will make it less effective. No, it's just that the longer he is around the easier and easier it is for sides to plan for him and factor his 'trademark' stuff into their pre-game strategies.

There maybe was a period when he was so potent that it didn't really matter what the opposition tired, he'd find the mismatch and do his tank thing. Now, the science of defending keeps adapting quicker in the top teams and most defenders themselves aren't as fragile as bowling pins any more.

Big blow for WP Nel as he is ruled out of the 6N - and potentially the rest of the season - with a serious neck injury.

I suspect this essentially ends his chances of a Lions spot.

That is a shame. His scrummaging was very impressive last year.

Hope Roberts isnt a test starter. The Lions game plan is so predictable when he is.

GunsGermsV2 wrote:Hope Roberts isnt a test starter. The Lions game plan is so predictable when he is.

Yea but he'll be a good decoy runner for Mike Phillips to get the ball to North and Cuthbert.

Haha.

Roberts used as a decoy! If only!

George Carlin wrote:

lostinwales wrote:You know - I think if Jones had to choose one out of Farrell and Ford he'd go for Farrell.

Having said that Ford is a magician. He doesn't always seem to do much, but somehow England play an awful lot better when he's there, despite the useless attacking 12 he usually works with.

Am totally with you on that one.

Well read it how you like but England are a much more dangerous attacking team with Ford playing than we are without him. Somehow our outside backs are scoring a lot of tries. I know some are down to JJ getting interceptions but I have a feeling he's doing something right.

lostinwales wrote:

George Carlin wrote:

lostinwales wrote:You know - I think if Jones had to choose one out of Farrell and Ford he'd go for Farrell.

Having said that Ford is a magician. He doesn't always seem to do much, but somehow England play an awful lot better when he's there, despite the useless attacking 12 he usually works with.

Am totally with you on that one.

Well read it how you like but England are a much more dangerous attacking team with Ford playing than we are without him. Somehow our outside backs are scoring a lot of tries. I know some are down to JJ getting interceptions but I have a feeling he's doing something right.

Personally I think there's been more of a melding of backs and forwards which has helped too.

Interesting link.

http://www.rugbyworld.com/countries/england-countries/analysis-mapping-46-tries-england-scored-2016-75258

i hear the nepotism in regards to selection of Scots in the Lions medical department is due to end this year. About time too.

GunsGermsV2 wrote:Hope Roberts isnt a test starter. The Lions game plan is so predictable when he is.

If he is even on the plane I will be aghast.

Having just watched the Glasgow v Leicester game. Johnny Gray for Captain of the Lions.

Gwlad wrote:i hear the nepotism in regards to selection of Scots in the Lions medical department is due to end this year. About time too.

This sound interesting, despite your weird take on it, please expand.

Exiledinborders wrote:

GunsGermsV2 wrote:Hope Roberts isnt a test starter. The Lions game plan is so predictable when he is.

If he is even on the plane I will be aghast.

If he is in the Welsh squad for the 6ns, and Wales do well in the 6ns, then he will be on the plane.

majesticimperialman wrote:

Exiledinborders wrote:

GunsGermsV2 wrote:Hope Roberts isnt a test starter. The Lions game plan is so predictable when he is.

If he is even on the plane I will be aghast.

If he is in the Welsh squad for the 6ns, and Wales do well in the 6ns, then he will be on the plane.

I'm not a huge fan of him anymore. He's gone downhill fairly rapidly in the last few years (apart from a few MOMs in fairly recent internationals). However, if he does have a good 6 nations then why shouldn't he be on the plane? Same for any player. Obviously. Discounting players now before the biggest/highest level NH tournament has even started seems a little...mmmm... premature perhaps. Let's all hold our horses and see what pans out.

Griff I am not a fan of Roberts either. I just think there are better players now then the last Lions tour.

But like your self am will to wait and see how he goes in the 6ns.

majesticimperialman wrote:Having just watched the Glasgow v Leicester game. Johnny Gray for Captain of the Lions.

Not one of his better games tonight - anonymous by his standards. I don't really want him to go on the lions tour for a variety of reasons but he is the best lock in the NH

Rory Best for Captain?

Watching Ulster yesterday, McCloskey (whom I think is a very dynamic player usually) was doing his best impersonation of Roberts. Maybe he thinks that's his best chance to get on a Lions tour cause Schmidt sure as hell wont pick him for Ireland

majesticimperialman wrote:

Exiledinborders wrote:

GunsGermsV2 wrote:Hope Roberts isnt a test starter. The Lions game plan is so predictable when he is.

If he is even on the plane I will be aghast.

If he is in the Welsh squad for the 6ns, and Wales do well in the 6ns, then he will be on the plane.

No he won't.

eirebilly wrote:Watching Ulster yesterday, McCloskey (whom I think is a very dynamic player usually) was doing his best impersonation of Roberts. Maybe he thinks that's his best chance to get on a Lions tour cause Schmidt sure as hell wont pick him for Ireland

^n w

He had a more than decent 1st 6N whenever it was. I don't quite understand why he seemed to fall out of contention

Gwlad wrote:

majesticimperialman wrote:

Exiledinborders wrote:

GunsGermsV2 wrote:Hope Roberts isnt a test starter. The Lions game plan is so predictable when he is.

If he is even on the plane I will be aghast.

If he is in the Welsh squad for the 6ns, and Wales do well in the 6ns, then he will be on the plane.

No he won't.

Correct. Haven't you seen the memo? Robbie Henshaw is the new Jamie Roberts.

He's younger, cheaper and more Irish, although less good at practising medicine.

Fly half is in an interesting debate.

We have the mercurial Russel and creative Ford on one side. On the flip, we have the dependable, strong defence of Farrell.

Sandwiched somewhere in between is Sexton, who has steady defence and is pretty good at most things.

One thing is for sure.....there is little point in playing Farrell in a side with a reliable place kicker, he offers very little outside of defence and a solid boot.

Some good options at fly half. My preference would be Russell but it will probably be Farrell.

Ford is very good but possibly not physical enough for Gatland and Sexton has been getting injured too much lately so Id prefer he didn't travel.

Biggar would also do a good job for the Lions but is possibly behind all other options at this point.

Russell vs the ABs in NZ? Maybe if he has a good 6 nations. Just want to see a bit more resilience from him. He's clearly an exciting player but Sexton and Farrell both are much more experienced.

About time Russell led Scotland to some notable wins, Scotland seem to have the promise and with Glasgow going well hopefully this will give Scotland the confidence to kick on.

Sexton and Farrell both have experience beating the ABs too.

beshocked wrote:Russell vs the ABs in NZ? Maybe if he has a good 6 nations. Just want to see a bit more resilience from him. He's clearly an exciting player but Sexton and Farrell both are much more experienced.

About time Russell led Scotland to some notable wins, Scotland seem to have the promise and with Glasgow going well hopefully this will give Scotland the confidence to kick on.

Sexton and Farrell both have experience beating the ABs too.

Farrell isnt that experienced an out half though plus he hasn't played there for England singe England started to consistently win games.

Russell has looked very good lately IMO.

123456789 wrote:

Gwlad wrote:i hear the nepotism in regards to selection of Scots in the Lions medical department is due to end this year. About time too.

This sound interesting, despite your weird take on it, please expand.

We can perhaps assume that he doesn't know what nepotism means.

My views on the fly half debate are not as yet settled, but at the moment I would pick Sexton, Farrell and Ford as my options, with Sexton starting the 1st Test and Farrell on the bench. Ford to run the midweek backs with Halfpenny at 15 taking the shots at goal.

Harsh on Russell and Biggar, but it's a strong batch to choose from this time around.

GunsGermsV2 wrote:

beshocked wrote:Russell vs the ABs in NZ? Maybe if he has a good 6 nations. Just want to see a bit more resilience from him. He's clearly an exciting player but Sexton and Farrell both are much more experienced.

About time Russell led Scotland to some notable wins, Scotland seem to have the promise and with Glasgow going well hopefully this will give Scotland the confidence to kick on.

Sexton and Farrell both have experience beating the ABs too.

Farrell isnt that experienced an out half though plus he hasn't played there for England singe England started to consistently win games.

Russell has looked very good lately IMO.

Have to give you a minus because your comment is so stupid. I'd much rather give + and that's what I've been doing in general.

Come on gunsgermsv2, you are not a fool. Saying Farrell isn't that an experienced fly half......