Lions 2017 - Name your team, captain and whatever else you want to harp on about

First topic message reminder :

My wishlist:

I hope AWJ is named captain to keep the Irish and English lads in check.
I hope Robshaw gets picked, he deserves to tour at least once at this point.
I hope the refereeing is strictly on a level playing field.
I hope NZ are made accountable for any incidents where they break anyone's collarbone and put them out of the game for 13 months.
The Lions to be at the very least competitive and win one of the first two tests.
I'd like to see Tadhg Furlong get a run out.
Would like to see an uncapped player in the squad.
No charity caps, Tom court, Shane Williams etc.
I hope Gatland comes up with a much more interesting and variable game plan than on the last Lions tour.
Dylan Hartley calls a ref the C word on the last day of the six nations and misses the tour.

LordDowlais wrote:

Scottrf wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:Is that the game where he was stretchered off after nearly being decapitated and he spent a few weeks on the sidelines afterwards ?

So you're saying his defence is weak?

No, how have you come to that conclusion ?

He was high tackled by a Samoan player and had to go off.

If you can't handle being high-tackled by a Samoan you probably shouldn't be on the plane to play NZ

LordDowlais wrote:

beshocked wrote:Well Biggar did win welsh personality of the year for that victory over England in the RWC.

It wasn't just for that, it was for his overall performances for Wales that year, and Ospreys.

beshocked wrote:That win over England in the RWC meant Gatland kept his job. Can't play down the significance.

You do realise that Gatland has a contract until the next WC don't you ? I suppose he only got the Lions job because of that victory as well ? God some of you English members have an over inflated opinion of your national team.

Generally people win awards for winning trophies/silverware.
Dan Biggar didn’t win any silverware for club or country yet won the welsh personality of the year award….

Neither Wales nor Ospreys had particularly good seasons.

Do you not think his MOTM performance vs England in England’s RWC had anything to do with it?

Come on...

Lancaster had a contract too but after his RWC performance, guess what… he didn’t last.

Not making the quarter finals cost Lancaster his job.
Gatland kept his job because he beat England. You seriously think Gatland would be in charge if Wales lost to England?

Cyril wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

Scottrf wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:Is that the game where he was stretchered off after nearly being decapitated and he spent a few weeks on the sidelines afterwards ?

So you're saying his defence is weak?

No, how have you come to that conclusion ?

He was high tackled by a Samoan player and had to go off.

If you can't handle being high-tackled by a Samoan you probably shouldn't be on the plane to play NZ

Will the Lions be playing the Barbarians before they go again this time? I hope Schalk Brits isnt playing.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Rabo and Challenge cup rugby is hardly a standard to judge Lions form. He's been dire for Wales and that's what he's going to be judged on.

Both valid statements in terms of what you judge form on. However, Biggar's been adequate, not dire, and the Rabo ceased to exist in 2014, so certainly not a good barometer to judge Lions selection.

In all seriousness, it's hard to judge Biggar for Wales when the rest of the team is hampered by poor coaching and/or poor players out of form. His kicking game in NZ, for instance, was very loose, but then he received absolutely no help from his chasers in that regard, who were/have been intermittently awful for Wales for a while.

GunsGermsV2 wrote:

Cyril wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

Scottrf wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:Is that the game where he was stretchered off after nearly being decapitated and he spent a few weeks on the sidelines afterwards ?

So you're saying his defence is weak?

No, how have you come to that conclusion ?

He was high tackled by a Samoan player and had to go off.

If you can't handle being high-tackled by a Samoan you probably shouldn't be on the plane to play NZ

Will the Lions be playing the Barbarians before they go again this time? I hope Schalk Brits isnt playing.

Are you worried he might try and chin Farrell again?

Ha ha yes. That was some slap.

miaow wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Rabo and Challenge cup rugby is hardly a standard to judge Lions form. He's been dire for Wales and that's what he's going to be judged on.

Both valid statements in terms of what you judge form on. However, Biggar's been adequate, not dire, and the Rabo ceased to exist in 2014, so certainly not a good barometer to judge Lions selection.

In all seriousness, it's hard to judge Biggar for Wales when the rest of the team is hampered by poor coaching and/or poor players out of form. His kicking game in NZ, for instance, was very loose, but then he received absolutely no help from his chasers in that regard, who were/have been intermittently awful for Wales for a while.

Bit worrying when he couldn't lead his team to victory over Samoa and Japan. Needs to be made of sterner stuff.

Of course you'll blame his team mates but neither side were world class. He should had stamped his authority on the game. NZ will be a step up.

Step up on a poor South African side who lost to Italy too.

Biggar needs to impose his will in the 6 nations.

Australia walked all over Wales in the AIs, NZ are a step up too.

beshocked wrote:
Sorry true raven. I only think that because Biggar got an award for that very reason, Gatland kept his job for that very reason.

You make it sound like that alone saved Gatland, rather than a well planned gameplan to compete against the able teams of England and Australia (and to a lesser extent Fiji), and subsequently South Africa, which is exactly what he did.

Biggar probably got the award because of his shirt number primarily: we mythologise the number 10 above all others. It's the glory position in the nation's consciousness. Added to that, his kicking prowess- including drop goals against SA etc., penalties against England, and his up and under to put Gareth Davies away against the Boks- would have gone some way to him receiving it, yet his dogged determination, commitment etc. (see his disgust/disappointment at being replaced in the final minutes against SA) saw him become embraced by the country on the biggest stage having never really been 'loved' before. He was symbolic of a gritty Wales, rather than the skillful flair we have in turn mythologised with regard to our country's rugby team.

The simple answer would be that he got it because he scored against England, as that's all we care about. The emphasis on simple...

beshocked wrote:I respected Wales' victory over England in the RWC but too much emphasis has been put on it.

Now perhaps you individually aren't obsessed with beating England but I get the impression that many in Wales are.

I think if Wales to improve as a rugby playing nation then attitudes must change.

miaow even talked about Gatland sacrificing a game in the 6 nations to beat England in the RWC.

Thanks for the advice!

I think if England to [sic] improve as a rugby playing nation then attitudes must change.

Perhaps you can have a word with keeping in check xenophobic comments about travellers- or, in fact, anyone other than the English- this Six Nations.

Lol hes won league titles and grand slams and knows what its like to play in a World cup knock out unlike precious Farrell and Ford

Cyril wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

Scottrf wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:Is that the game where he was stretchered off after nearly being decapitated and he spent a few weeks on the sidelines afterwards ?

So you're saying his defence is weak?

No, how have you come to that conclusion ?

He was high tackled by a Samoan player and had to go off.

If you can't handle being high-tackled by a Samoan you probably shouldn't be on the plane to play NZ

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0l91f28J_Ng

beshocked wrote:Bit worrying when he couldn't lead his team to victory over Samoa and Japan. Needs to be made of sterner stuff.

Are all the South Africans who lost to Japan in the WC now all of a sudden now not made of sterner stuff ? Lets just forget that Biggar was all of about 20yrs old and only on the periphery of the Wales squad at the time, and about 20 of the Welsh squad were away with the Lions.

beshocked wrote:Not making the quarter finals cost Lancaster his job.
Gatland kept his job because he beat England. You seriously think Gatland would be in charge if Wales lost to England?

Gatlands job was never in question. But if so, he probably kept his job because he got Wales into the quarter finals with a hugely depleted squad. The fact that Biggar was made of sterner stuff in that game and we beat England was just a bonus.

miaow wrote:

Cyril wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

Scottrf wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:Is that the game where he was stretchered off after nearly being decapitated and he spent a few weeks on the sidelines afterwards ?

So you're saying his defence is weak?

No, how have you come to that conclusion ?

He was high tackled by a Samoan player and had to go off.

If you can't handle being high-tackled by a Samoan you probably shouldn't be on the plane to play NZ

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0l91f28J_Ng

I think Cueto and (especially) Moody handled that pretty well all things considered

Don't forget England won that game by 40-3!

beshocked wrote:

miaow wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Rabo and Challenge cup rugby is hardly a standard to judge Lions form. He's been dire for Wales and that's what he's going to be judged on.

Both valid statements in terms of what you judge form on. However, Biggar's been adequate, not dire, and the Rabo ceased to exist in 2014, so certainly not a good barometer to judge Lions selection.

In all seriousness, it's hard to judge Biggar for Wales when the rest of the team is hampered by poor coaching and/or poor players out of form. His kicking game in NZ, for instance, was very loose, but then he received absolutely no help from his chasers in that regard, who were/have been intermittently awful for Wales for a while.

Bit worrying when he couldn't lead his team to victory over Samoa and Japan. Needs to be made of sterner stuff.

Of course you'll blame his team mates but neither side were world class. He should had stamped his authority on the game. NZ will be a step up.

Step up on a poor South African side who lost to Italy too.

Biggar needs to impose his will in the 6 nations.

Australia walked all over Wales in the AIs, NZ are a step up too.

What are you on about? Wales lost to Japan in 2013 and Samoa in 2012! That's hardly relevant to the discussion of form. Dear me...

True Raven wrote:Lol hes won league titles and grand slams and knows what its like to play in a World cup knock out unlike precious Farrell and Ford

Johnny Wilkinson has won a world cup, I don't see your point.

Lions tours need players in form and at this moment in time, Bigger is not in good form against strong opposition. I don't think it's much of a shock to be saying this, even some Welsh fans are calling for him to be dropped.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

True Raven wrote:Lol hes won league titles and grand slams and knows what its like to play in a World cup knock out unlike precious Farrell and Ford

Johnny Wilkinson has won a world cup, I don't see your point.

Lions tours need players in form and at this moment in time, Bigger is not in good form against strong opposition. I don't think it's much of a shock to be saying this, even some Welsh fans are calling for him to be dropped.

I was responding to Beshocked who is trying to belittle Biggar by saying he can't beat Japan and Samoa.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Bigger is not in good form against strong opposition

What form would this be ? Because he has been in very good form in the league this season. Like you said earlier, the 6N's will go a long way to showing who should be selected.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:even some Welsh fans are calling for him to be dropped.

Only the mad as hatters people who think the next flavour of the month should be picked, we get them all the time in Wales, people are shouting for the likes of Sam Davies, and Keelan Giles or Ashton Hewitt to be picked instead of tried and tested players.

For me Dan Biggar is one of the nailed on first names on the team sheet when it come's to Wales.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

True Raven wrote:Lol hes won league titles and grand slams and knows what its like to play in a World cup knock out unlike precious Farrell and Ford

Johnny Wilkinson has won a world cup, I don't see your point.

Lions tours need players in form and at this moment in time, Bigger is not in good form against strong opposition. I don't think it's much of a shock to be saying this, even some Welsh fans are calling for him to be dropped.

Hes the Ospreys first choice number 10 and the Ospreys are top of the league.

The not in form argument is boring and not true.

You may discount the pro12 as a crap league but Leinster, Munster and Glasgow all made the knockout stages of the ECC and all are below Biggar's team in the league.

LordDowlais wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:even some Welsh fans are calling for him to be dropped.

Only the mad as hatters people who think the next flavour of the month should be picked, we get them all the time in Wales, people are shouting for the likes of Sam Davies, and Keelan Giles or Ashton Hewitt to be picked instead of tried and tested players.

Just because people disagree with you doesn't make them 'mad as hatters'.

True Raven wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

True Raven wrote:Lol hes won league titles and grand slams and knows what its like to play in a World cup knock out unlike precious Farrell and Ford

Johnny Wilkinson has won a world cup, I don't see your point.

Lions tours need players in form and at this moment in time, Bigger is not in good form against strong opposition. I don't think it's much of a shock to be saying this, even some Welsh fans are calling for him to be dropped.

Hes the Ospreys first choice number 10 and the Ospreys are top of the league.

The not in form argument is boring and not true.

You may discount the pro12 as a crap league but Leinster, Munster and Glasgow all made the knockout stages of the ECC and all are below Biggar's team in the league.

That's because the Irish sides (and Glasgow) don't take the Pro12 seriously

True Raven wrote:Hes the Ospreys first choice number 10

And not all Ospreys fans are happy about it.

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:

True Raven wrote:Hes the Ospreys first choice number 10

And not all Ospreys fans are happy about it.

Yep. A lot of Ospreys fans I see on social media seem to prefer Sam Davies.

But this is the thread where we judge 10s on team results not individual performances. And forget the date. He lost to Samoa so he can't be picked.

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:

True Raven wrote:Hes the Ospreys first choice number 10

And not all Ospreys fans are happy about it.

Why does that matter?

Sports fans can be fickle, what matters is the coaching team choose him as their first choice ten and he delivers

miaow


Wales lost to SA and Australia in the RWC though.


You can say that Biggar didn't win the award primarily for that MOTM performance vs England but even if it wasn't the only reason Biggar won it was one of the main reasons.




Lorddowlais you might have noticed that SA are going through a bit of a dip in form and confidence.

SA should have beaten Japan.

Just as Wales should have beaten Japan and Samoa.


Biggar sadly isn't as good as you think. If he was I'd give credit where credit is due.

Best FH in the NH is currently Sexton, Biggar wouldn't make the Lions 23 if I was picking - Sexton,Ford and Farrell ahead. Biggar competing with Russell currently.

True Raven wrote:

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:

True Raven wrote:Hes the Ospreys first choice number 10

And not all Ospreys fans are happy about it.

Why does that matter?

Sports fans can be fickle, what matters is the coaching team choose him as their first choice ten and he delivers

I think it's worth adding to the conversation. Those that don't follow the Pro12 / Welsh rugby might not know there are calls for Sam Davies to be starting.

Sam Davies is a better footballer than Biggar. Many Ospreys and Wales fans would probably accept that- soon, perhaps very soon- he will surpass Biggar outright. Those calling for him to replace Biggar now are aware that the need to regerenate, for club and country, is an unavoidable, generational necessity of rugby.

This is the problem with trying to transfer that mode of thought into Lions selection. Lions selection has very little to do with progression, lineage, the future etc. It's very much based on the here and now, and arguably past form matters more than future potential. More confusingly- and annoyingly for many fans- it's also increasingly moving away from merely selecting 'the best' players, and into 'the most capable players for the job required'. Case in point: Tom Youngs.

Another case in point: many England fans are calling for Itoje to be Lions captain. They see him as a Martin Johnson figure, someone who could go on to be not just an England captain, but a great England captain, and therefore adequate and able to lead the Lions right now, as it's part of what they envisage to be an upward arc of leadership and success.

Fans of other countries, who support the Lions, think this a ridiculous idea, because they don't really care about that arc, and- based on actual form and proven captaincy experience at roughly this sort of level- potential simply isn't good enough. This is bias manifest: England fans aren't 'wrong', per se, but you have to understand where that bias is coming from, and the consideration of other fans who won't share their perspective.

So, perversely, Sam Davies- to my mind at least- looks like a far better footballing outside half than Dan Biggar, and could go on to be better player for Wales than Biggar has/can. There isn't a gulf between the two when considering their selection for the Ospreys. There isn't even for Wales. However there is a sliding scale based on experience, reliability etc., that must come from actual things that have happened, rather than potential, and in relation to the stage on which the game is being played. So it is that two players who, for their club team, may be horses for courses, but when it comes to the Lions, one is in with a reasonable shout, whereas the other- as it stands now- is quite far from being considered.

LordDowlais wrote:Finn Russell needs to improve his defence, the All Blacks would flatten him down that 10 channel. He is pretty good in attack, but I do not think we will be doing much attacking, we need a 10 who can tackle on this tour, Biggar, Farrell and Sexton all fit that bill.

I personally don't think Finn is ready, and he wouldn't be my first choice 10 as things stand for the lions (probably wouldn't even tour to be honest), but I don't think his defence is in any way questionable.  His game management can be flakey and he can try things that don't, and will never, come off, but he's been fairly solid in defence.  I'm sure he's been praised on a number of occasions for his defensive work.  I'm not a Glasgow fan, so don't see him every week, but from what I have, he's been pretty rock like.

But to clarify, I'm not saying he should tour, just it's an odd thing to suggest he's not good at, when game management, would potentially be a far better rationale for not including him.

miaow when picking a Lions captain it has to be a guaranteed starter. The issue IMO is not many of the captain contenders are nailed on.

Lock is a very competitive position. Every nation has their bias towards their locks.

I'd personally pick Itoje to be the new captain of England for the 6 nations first. If he got given the England captaincy then yes he could stake a claim for Lions captain IMO.

I think it's safe to say Itoje is nailed on to start for England if he stays fit in the 6 nations.

Of course many England fans would be upset about stripping the captaincy of the current dirtiest rugby player from England but I'd say - tough. You shouldn't get yourself banned.

beshocked wrote:miaow when picking a Lions captain it has to be a guaranteed starter. The issue IMO is not many of the captain contenders are nailed on.

Lock is a very competitive position. Every nation has their bias towards their locks.

I'd personally pick Itoje to be the new captain of England for the 6 nations first. If he got given the England captaincy then yes he could stake a claim for Lions captain IMO.

I think it's safe to say Itoje is nailed on to start for England if he stays fit in the 6 nations.

Do feminists make good captains? I see his as a great player but probably not a great leader.

GunsGermsV2 wrote:

beshocked wrote:miaow when picking a Lions captain it has to be a guaranteed starter. The issue IMO is not many of the captain contenders are nailed on.

Lock is a very competitive position. Every nation has their bias towards their locks.

I'd personally pick Itoje to be the new captain of England for the 6 nations first. If he got given the England captaincy then yes he could stake a claim for Lions captain IMO.

I think it's safe to say Itoje is nailed on to start for England if he stays fit in the 6 nations.

Do feminists make good captains?

Sorry I don't get that.

He claims to be a liberal feminist:

http://www.standard.co.uk/lifestyle/london-life/rugby-star-maro-itoje-on-being-a-liberal-feminist-and-his-drive-to-be-the-best-a3215001.html

I dunno but he doesnt seem like the type of guy who would inspire a troop of fairly hard nosed rugby players.

True Raven wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

True Raven wrote:Lol hes won league titles and grand slams and knows what its like to play in a World cup knock out unlike precious Farrell and Ford

Johnny Wilkinson has won a world cup, I don't see your point.

Lions tours need players in form and at this moment in time, Bigger is not in good form against strong opposition. I don't think it's much of a shock to be saying this, even some Welsh fans are calling for him to be dropped.

Hes the Ospreys first choice number 10 and the Ospreys are top of the league.

The not in form argument is boring and not true.

You may discount the pro12 as a crap league but Leinster, Munster and Glasgow all made the knockout stages of the ECC and all are below Biggar's team in the league.

Top of the league...so what?

Joel Hodgson is playing fantastic rugby for Newcastle in the AP but you can't class league form as good enough for Lions. Playing well in the AP and the Pro 12 means diddly if you can't replicate it on the Int stage.

You might call it boring, but it's a fact. Players will not be picked on form in their respective leagues....it's that simple.

GunsGermsV2 wrote:He claims to be a liberal feminist:

http://www.standard.co.uk/lifestyle/london-life/rugby-star-maro-itoje-on-being-a-liberal-feminist-and-his-drive-to-be-the-best-a3215001.html

I dunno but he doesnt seem like the type of guy who would inspire a troop of fairly hard nosed rugby players.

Ok, that's the dumbest conclusion reached on the Internet today.

gunsgerms personally I'd rather have an eloquent, intelligent, good role model rather than someone who has a significant amount of bans - feminist or not...

Itoje I am sure is well versed enough to get his point across well enough to his colleagues. Also he's good enough player to lead by example. Not merely 6/10 but occasionally put in 9/10 performances.

I'd rather have the rising star whose putting in big performances week in week out than the bloke putting in 6/10 performances picked for his leadership and throwing.

beshocked wrote:miaow


Wales lost to SA and Australia in the RWC though.


You can say that Biggar didn't win the award primarily for that MOTM performance vs England but even if it wasn't the only reason Biggar won it was one of the main reasons.

They did. Narrowly. Which isn't too bad considering the injury, funding, player number, psychological, and all round standard defecit we have to bridge against the SANZAR teams at international level. But that's another matter.

I've also explained to you- in my opinion- the many and varied reasons behing him winning such an..."award", for want of a better word. As Andy Murray repeatedly proves, it's certainly not given to those with the most personality, so often it's quite a subjective, flavour of the month, who-really-cares kind of thing. It's why- without calling up the BBC panel who decided upon Biggar- all we have is supposition. Now, you believe Welsh rugby fans primarily exist to and hope for beating England. As such, you believe such an award is given to Biggar as a totem for the team doing so, knocking England out of their own RWC. This is known as confirmation bias. That's fine. I provided plenty more well justified reasons behind it, but as you can only lead a horse to water, let's agree to disagree and move...we're discussing the Lions, after all.

beshocked wrote:Lorddowlais you might have noticed that SA are going through a bit of a dip in form and confidence.

SA should have beaten Japan.

Just as Wales should have beaten Japan and Samoa.

Just as England should have beaten Wales? And Australia? In their own RWC? Glass houses...

beshocked wrote:Biggar sadly isn't as good as you think. If he was I'd give credit where credit is due.

Best FH in the NH is currently Sexton, Biggar wouldn't make the Lions 23 if I was picking - Sexton,Ford and Farrell ahead. Biggar competing with Russell currently.

Unless you are a professional coach (with an application problem, presumably, discussing Rugby on 606 rather than doing the job you're being paid to), I'm not really sure whether many posters actually care about your appraisal of Biggar in and of itself, certainly no moreso than any other poster, on the face of it. But then you've regularly expressed the belief that you could do a better job at coaching than the professionals, even saying you could have done better than Warren Gatland with the Lions in 2013. Which- to my mind at least- renders your appraisals somewhat inferior to posters who can actually validate their opinions on players, rather than conflating historical team results with a player's intrinsic worth, a worth that seems to be measured by the tautological code of "I don't think he's good so he's not good".

Biggar has his value. Were he a Gatland favourite, he would certainly be touring, as he's the best at what he does (kicking, structure) out of all the options. However, he has not been a favourite of Gatland's, so it's whether his value is worth the different value of someone like Russell, or Ford, because Farrell and Sexton- if fit- will obviously both tour.

GunsGermsV2 wrote:Do feminists make good captains? I see his as a great player but probably not a great leader.

Do narcissists make good Presidents? I see him as a great businessman television personality Twitter user guaranteed clickbait headline maker but probably not a great President.

funnyExiledScot wrote:

GunsGermsV2 wrote:He claims to be a liberal feminist:

http://www.standard.co.uk/lifestyle/london-life/rugby-star-maro-itoje-on-being-a-liberal-feminist-and-his-drive-to-be-the-best-a3215001.html

I dunno but he doesnt seem like the type of guy who would inspire a troop of fairly hard nosed rugby players.

Ok, that's the dumbest conclusion reached on the Internet today.

I'm assuming it's a generational thing, and Guns is 40+ years of age. If so, fine, it's a lazy but widely held belief amongst people of a certain age. In 20 years' time it'll be a fairly run of the mill thing, and the next generation will have a new code of beliefs and standards which Itoje's generation will either have to adapt to, or look down upon.

miaow wrote:Without calling up the BBC panel who decided upon Biggar- all we have is supposition. Now, you believe Welsh rugby fans primarily exist to and hope for beating England...

I'm pretty sure it's a public vote.

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:even some Welsh fans are calling for him to be dropped.

Only the mad as hatters people who think the next flavour of the month should be picked, we get them all the time in Wales, people are shouting for the likes of Sam Davies, and Keelan Giles or Ashton Hewitt to be picked instead of tried and tested players.

Just because people disagree with you doesn't make them 'mad as hatters'.

It's not about whether people agree with me or not, people are right to an opinion. It's just when people are clamouring for players to start because they are flavour of the month is just bonkers. Put it this way, would you start Sam Davies ahead of Biggar for Wales in the 6N's ? Would you start Kellan Giles or Ashton Hewitt ahead of Liam Williams on the wing for Wales in the 6N's ?

I am all for giving players a chance, but that should not be for starts in the 6N's, put them on the bench, and bring them on if you are in a good position, or even if you need to change a game that you are chasing. But inexperienced players should not be starting, the romance of yesteryear has gone, we are in an age where everything is analysed and too much damage could be done to young decent players with massive potential if things do not go right.

GunsGermsV2 wrote:He claims to be a liberal feminist:

http://www.standard.co.uk/lifestyle/london-life/rugby-star-maro-itoje-on-being-a-liberal-feminist-and-his-drive-to-be-the-best-a3215001.html

I dunno but he doesnt seem like the type of guy who would inspire a troop of fairly hard nosed rugby players.

Interesting young man.

I wish him luck. Particularly when Jonny Gray re-arranges his face in one month's time.

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:

miaow wrote:Without calling up the BBC panel who decided upon Biggar- all we have is supposition. Now, you believe Welsh rugby fans primarily exist to and hope for beating England...

I'm pretty sure it's a public vote.

All the more reason why public fascination with the mythologised 10 shirt seems a fair reason.

miaow

Doesn't matter if they lost narrowly, they still lost. You say it's not bad, yes it is. Especially when you take into account Gatland's laughably poor record vs SH sides.


Well justified reasons for Biggar winning the award? Really? I haven't heard any good ones.

Look if you want to believe that Biggar won the award for making a semi final for Ospreys or some other thing you are welcome to but to be frank it's just rubbish.

Murray not just won the Olympics and Wimbledon, he ended the year no 1 tennis player in the world.

Now personally I wouldn't have voted for Murray but he achieved a lot more than Biggar. I realise it was different year.

Indeed England should have beaten Wales and Australia.

Guess what - Lancaster lost his job as a result. Wales and Australia are slightly better than Japan and Samoa though....

If you don't think Wales really want to beat England and weren't over the moon about beating England in their own RWC fair enough.

If you trust in Gatland I am not going to persuade you otherwise.

LordDowlais wrote:

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:even some Welsh fans are calling for him to be dropped.

Only the mad as hatters people who think the next flavour of the month should be picked, we get them all the time in Wales, people are shouting for the likes of Sam Davies, and Keelan Giles or Ashton Hewitt to be picked instead of tried and tested players.

Just because people disagree with you doesn't make them 'mad as hatters'.

It's not about whether people agree with me or not, people are right to an opinion. It's just when people are clamouring for players to start because they are flavour of the month is just bonkers. Put it this way, would you start Sam Davies ahead of Biggar for Wales in the 6N's ? Would you start Kellan Giles or Ashton Hewitt ahead of Liam Williams on the wing for Wales in the 6N's ?

I'd start Sam Davies ahead of Biggar. I wouldn't start either winger ahead of Liam Williams - but I don't think anyone would.

beshocked wrote:Guess what - Lancaster lost his job as a result. Wales and Australia are slightly better than Japan and Samoa though....

If you don't think Wales really want to beat England and weren't over the moon about beating England in their own RWC fair enough.

If you trust in Gatland I am not going to persuade you otherwise.

Look, if you think one players performance was the difference to two other peoples livelihoods then fine, I do not think so, if you think Biggar got an award for just kicking a goal against England then fair enough, but how come Gareth Davies did not get that award, he scored the try for Wales in that game after all.

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:I'd start Sam Davies ahead of Biggar. I wouldn't start either winger ahead of Liam Williams - but I don't think anyone would.

Fair enough.

But I was debating this on another thread, and whilst I cannot remember exactly who it was, but there were people on there saying that they would put Liam Williams at fullback and put Keelan Giles or Ashton hewit on the wing. Instead of keeping to our tried and tested Halfpenny at fullback and Williams on the wing.

But each to their own. I would not start any of those players I would put them on the bench though.

beshocked wrote:Doesn't matter if they lost narrowly, they still lost. You say it's not bad, yes it is. Especially when you take into account Gatland's laughably poor record vs SH sides.

Well justified reasons for Biggar winning the award? Really? I haven't heard any good ones.

If you don't think Wales really want to beat England and weren't over the moon about beating England in their own RWC fair enough.

It's not black and white, all or nothing beshocked. Biggar might not be as good as Sexton, but does that mean that he's useless and overrated and actually he's only rated because he beat England twice and that's all Welsh fans care about. You can go out of the RWC in the manner of Wales did and- considering all the circumstances- come to the conclusion that, although not great, it was hardly a bad underperformance. England's loss (i.e. the same end result, not winning the RWC) was- again, considering the circumstances- a far, far worse (i.e. more bad, badder, the badliest of all time) "not great result" than Wales's. It's the ability to find that middle ground, to discern the difficult, grey area of imperfect subjectivity, and successfully implement it that separates a poor coach from a good coach, and a good coach from a great coach etc.

Equally, just because you don't agree with/haven't read what I wrote in trying to entertain you on a really pointless discussion about the merits of a flavour of the month award, doesn't mean they aren't there and valid.

And also just because Welsh fans don't solely and primarily want Wales to beat England, that doesn't mean we don't really enjoy it when we do

LordDowlais wrote:

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:I'd start Sam Davies ahead of Biggar. I wouldn't start either winger ahead of Liam Williams - but I don't think anyone would.

Fair enough.

But I was debating this on another thread, and whilst I cannot remember exactly who it was, but there were people on there saying that they would put Liam Williams at fullback and put Keelan Giles or Ashton hewit on the wing. Instead of keeping to our tried and tested Halfpenny at fullback and Williams on the wing.

But each to their own. I would not start any of those players I would put them on the bench though.

I'd have Williams at full back.

I think Halfpenny and North both need good tournaments because they're not setting the world alight at the moment.

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:I think Halfpenny and North both need good tournaments because they're not setting the world alight at the moment.

Yes, but you'd have to start them to come to that conclusion ?

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

True Raven wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

True Raven wrote:Lol hes won league titles and grand slams and knows what its like to play in a World cup knock out unlike precious Farrell and Ford

Johnny Wilkinson has won a world cup, I don't see your point.

Lions tours need players in form and at this moment in time, Bigger is not in good form against strong opposition. I don't think it's much of a shock to be saying this, even some Welsh fans are calling for him to be dropped.

Hes the Ospreys first choice number 10 and the Ospreys are top of the league.

The not in form argument is boring and not true.

You may discount the pro12 as a crap league but Leinster, Munster and Glasgow all made the knockout stages of the ECC and all are below Biggar's team in the league.

Top of the league...so what?

Joel Hodgson is playing fantastic rugby for Newcastle in the AP but you can't class league form as good enough for Lions. Playing well in the AP and the Pro 12 means diddly if you can't replicate it on the Int stage.

You might call it boring, but it's a fact. Players will not be picked on form in their respective leagues....it's that simple.

I'm not suggesting Biggar should be starting 10 for the lions, I've already said I'd choose Farrell. I'm debating the nonsense you posted by saying he's bang out of form so shouldn't be considered.

And it's not a fact as you say, it's an opinion that can't have been based on watching him recently

EWT Spoons wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:Finn Russell needs to improve his defence, the All Blacks would flatten him down that 10 channel. He is pretty good in attack, but I do not think we will be doing much attacking, we need a 10 who can tackle on this tour, Biggar, Farrell and Sexton all fit that bill.

I personally don't think Finn is ready, and he wouldn't be my first choice 10 as things stand for the lions (probably wouldn't even tour to be honest), but I don't think his defence is in any way questionable.  His game management can be flakey and he can try things that don't, and will never, come off, but he's been fairly solid in defence.  I'm sure he's been praised on a number of occasions for his defensive work.  I'm not a Glasgow fan, so don't see him every week, but from what I have, he's been pretty rock like.

But to clarify, I'm not saying he should tour, just it's an odd thing to suggest he's not good at, when game management, would potentially be a far better rationale for not including him.

What a load of bollo©ks.

Russell is a great defender and never shirks a tackle.

Just because he's out performing your boyo doesn't mean you should resort to making things up.

miaow wrote:

GunsGermsV2 wrote:Do feminists make good captains? I see his as a great player but probably not a great leader.

Do narcissists make good Presidents? I see him as a great businessman television personality Twitter user guaranteed clickbait headline maker but probably not a great President.

funnyExiledScot wrote:

GunsGermsV2 wrote:He claims to be a liberal feminist:

http://www.standard.co.uk/lifestyle/london-life/rugby-star-maro-itoje-on-being-a-liberal-feminist-and-his-drive-to-be-the-best-a3215001.html

I dunno but he doesnt seem like the type of guy who would inspire a troop of fairly hard nosed rugby players.

Ok, that's the dumbest conclusion reached on the Internet today.

I'm assuming it's a generational thing, and Guns is 40+ years of age. If so, fine, it's a lazy but widely held belief amongst people of a certain age. In 20 years' time it'll be a fairly run of the mill thing, and the next generation will have a new code of beliefs and standards which Itoje's generation will either have to adapt to, or look down upon.

Excuse you Im only 36. I think feminism is generally the greatest load of bollox in western society because women already have equal rights in most western societies including Britain and Ireland and in some ways particularlty in family law in Ireland have greater rights than men. Im all in favour of gender equality however feminism doesnt represent that at all for me nor does it represent men at all really. As far as I can tell lots of feminist campaigns arent much more than marketing campaigns in disguise aimed at very impressionable people. I have no time for male feminists.