Lions 2017 - Name your team, captain and whatever else you want to harp on about

First topic message reminder :

My wishlist:

I hope AWJ is named captain to keep the Irish and English lads in check.
I hope Robshaw gets picked, he deserves to tour at least once at this point.
I hope the refereeing is strictly on a level playing field.
I hope NZ are made accountable for any incidents where they break anyone's collarbone and put them out of the game for 13 months.
The Lions to be at the very least competitive and win one of the first two tests.
I'd like to see Tadhg Furlong get a run out.
Would like to see an uncapped player in the squad.
No charity caps, Tom court, Shane Williams etc.
I hope Gatland comes up with a much more interesting and variable game plan than on the last Lions tour.
Dylan Hartley calls a ref the C word on the last day of the six nations and misses the tour.

You're not wrong about the marketing campaigns and co-opting of feminist rhetoric for branding, but then your problem ought to be with Capitalism, rather than Feminism.

I don't want to go completely off topic so I'll try to link this back to Rugby eventually, but talk to women of lots of different ages about it: your mother, your sister, you daughter, or better yet, friends. Ask them about how often they've felt belittled. Ask them how and when they've felt threatened. Ask them how they've felt systemically excluded. It might be illuminating. There are many things a change in perspective can bring, and just because we can't see them, doesn't mean they're not in existence, and don't effect people in a large way that it wouldn't you or me.

Most people under 30, certainly under 20, have been switched on in a way that it's pretty much socially toxic to be overtly racist or sexist, in no small part because of the internet. What was once a throwaway comment to impress the boys or whatever by belittling someone else is now there for posterity online, and it's made a lot of people think twice about their behaviour. It's also been an avenue for solidarity and education for a lot of teengagers, at an age and in a society that often isolates and separates people. It's far from perfect, but this internet wave of feminism is having its growing pains, and is doing a lot of informative and supportive work in interrogating the small, often unseen inequalities in existence, that are there and are destructive, but cannot be mitigated by the current state of equality laws.

It's messy and open to abuse, and there is definitely a social order based on moral purity with the online feminist spheres, but that's all part of self fashioning online, which young people are always going to do. Part of it is wide eyed idealism, but that doesn't mean that it's "wrong": it's not a religion, even though it inspires religious fervour, and doesn't have to have all the answers to a tee, particularly when it's so factional and contradictory and not myopic as a movement.

In terms of Rugby, then, I think it's important to see the changing face of the game. Professionalism looks to embrace the acceptable face of inclusivity, and that means one that crosses the gender and nationality border. I think Rugby does this better than other sports in many regards, but it can also be pretty bad; it's usually the Rugby team out of all sides at University or a School that pushes the drinking and all that goes with it to its most extreme. Whilst in the amateur game there is often social credit for sexual prowess and conquest, the growing voice of the conquested- women- about these scenarios is certainly having an impact, and on the professional game, no-one would want to be on the wrong side of a messy or illegal scenario which would be disastrous for everyone involved, from club to player to accuser.

Considering the sport is basically controlled brutish thuggery, there's something to be said in offsetting that image to the casual fans through right-on figures like Itoje, who is the perfect poster boy for England to sell the game to the next generation, as a young, black, and seemingly well educated and mannered player, who happens to be very good at Rugby as well. It's a good way of getting socially liberal people (i.e. young parents) outside the heartlands playing a sport they might not otherwise play. I'd say the biggest problem for Itoje as a captain is that he might be a bit wet behind the ears, and perhaps professing his views on political matters like this shows that, but you have to be forgiving to someone so young. In terms of macho capital, I don't think an admission like this would be a reason for players to disrespect him, or not rally to him: it's not as if this makes him a limp wristed white knight or whatever image you may have of a male feminist.

Apologies for speculating on your age, but you probably are on the cusp of just missing the generational boat in tems of the newfound prevalence of feminism having a particular relevance to you. I do actually understand the hostility many people have to it, because the manner in which it is translated online is so hostile. It's basically academic theories dispersed into a population that doesn't think things through as thoroughly, and when it often relates to first hand experience, it can feel...of putting to those on the outside. It can all feel a bit alien, even self indulgent for people of a certain age.

That said, it's a pretty unfair statement to make about Itoje, and rugby players in general.

My mum and my sister are too busy being sucessful to be worried about mythical feminist nonsense. I certainly dont baby them or patronise them with self fulfilling nonsenseical imaginary limitations that serve only to give impressionable young girls ready made excuses for failure. Feminism in modern western countries does more harm than good to both men and women for my liking.

Life is tough. Everyone is belittled from time to time.

Your post reads quite patronising to me. You are painting a picture of anyone of a certain age as enlightened vs the ignorant older generation. I would contest that in the future feminism will be debunked for the unequal unhelpful movement that it is in favor of more gender egalitarian movements.

Male feminists arent enlightened they are misguided.

Na, not enlightened vs. ignorant, I don't mean to be patronising, but everyone's beliefs and attitudes are largely affected by age, and therefore societal position. This isn't nonsense, it's grounded in the mythology, philosophy, and scripture going back millenia. Young people start questioning things when they realise that "the way things are", i.e. human society, could be better. This realisation can come from academic realisation, therefore relatively safe, or through all the varied horrendous things that a human could experience at the hands and miscare of another.

When those same young people go into the world, instilled within them the belief of recreating the Eden they may have felt when very young, they are faced with such necessities as working, starting a family etc., and most come round to the world being not so bad, because in many ways, it isn't. It then seems nonsensical for a younger generation to 'find' new complaints, when their parents feel they had done all they could in making the world better. It's also unsettling for people of a certain age- settled in habits, routines, beliefs- to feel a societal shift come from youth culture. Imagine what it would have been like to be a teengaer during the Second World War, and to then see the 60's happen. It would feel so alien, so indulgent...nonsensical, even. Yet does that render the 60's a nonsense decade of social change?

You're being staunch in your opposition to it, and I'm not quite sure why. What's there to lose, or fear, of listening to someone talk about sexual abuse, limited opportunities, gender dysmorphia. Some of it is indulgent: for instance, it's pretty hard to care for Henrietta from Surrey bemoan the fact that she isn't a CEO by 40 because she's unable to network with the boys at the strip club. I don't care, but that unfortunately doesn't mean that it's "nonsense", or that sexual inequality isn't happening in that area. I can also see how all these tings are interconnected: by not having women in positions of power, it's increasingly difficult to change pervasive and surreptitious sexism in things like films, advertising, the general societal discourse (not to say that it doesn't work both ways, we're probably all aware of the feckless father character in adverts in order to not put off women). Your point re: whether such views should be given the light of day are interesting, but it's too late for that, the internet opened pandora's box and there's no going back. Just have to let these things sort themselves out, and or the most pressing, most real reasons and points of discussion to float to the top, which to my mind at least, is beginning to happen.

I don't see how male feminists are misguided. Is it an issue with the term itself? I don't necessarily disagree: one of the problems is that it's such an umbrella term, that it can range from radical castration and the destruction of males as a sex bar a few for the sustaining of the human race, and just quite simply equality under the law. There's a lot in between those two poles, so it's fairly unhelpful ohow it's all lumped together.

In terms of Itoje, though, most people would take the view that he's aligning himself with gender and sex equality, rather than anything more radical. Even if he were, that's probably his business, but I don't see how either scenario makes him a poorer captain. If anyone took a joke too far on the subject, I don't see how he'd be the one losing respect in the dressing room, and so I don't see how it's a weakness for him in leading other men.

Im opposed to feminism because it is one sided. It doesnt represent me nor men In general. In my experience male feminists tend to have daddy issues or are too impressionable to cut through the cowpat and yet for me one of the greatest unanswered inequalites in Irish society is the treatment of single fathers in family law. The odds are set to create a society with a certain amount of absent fathers and a generation of hipster free thinking feminists.

I look forward to the day when feminism is replaced with gender equality.

Guns old chap - you do really show some horrendous ignorance and Neanderthal attitudes there. feminism is all about and only about gender equality.

I suggest you go and read some of the core works to gain some understanding.

As TJ says, I thought feminism stood for gender equality rather than anything you've mentioned Guns.

I can see where you're coming from though, kind of. Bring up feminism to some of my friends and they apparently picture a skinhead lesbian in dungarees. It's just a matter of interpretation I guess in sort way.

If feminism was solely about gender equality, surely they'd campaign for male issues too (paternity leave, custody rights etc)? It's a womens rights movement, with the aim of creating equality in the areas that women lack equality. Not quite the same.

Anyway, it's not going to affect Itoje's chances of captaincy, he wont be Lions Captain anyway.

I never ever thought I would see gender equality debated on these boards.

I don't come here for a philosophical back and forth.

I come here for jingoisim, polemics, blind prejudice, pointless Scotland fan optimism and self delusion and I can only hope that we all revert to type very shortly.

scrum.coms lions team of the week ie the guys just from last weeks games that impressed the most.

15. Stuart Hogg

Another strong performance from the Scotland and Glasgow fullback. Joined the line with great effect and operated as a second distributor, regularly putting the likes of Seymour and Lee Jones into space.

14. Tommy Seymour

Hit a superb line to score Glasgow's first try and set the wheels in motion. He has offerings everything you want in a winger; intelligent footballer coming off his wing to great effect combined with pace and power.

13. Will Addison

Addison put in a man of the match performance for Sale Sharks including a superb individual try to see his team snap a 10 match losing streak in all competitions against Scarlets.

12. Robbie Henshaw

Showed a turn of pace for his first try and was close in support like any good midfielder should be as he barged over his second during Leinster's draw over Castres.

11. Chris Ashton

Looked lively throughout and his work-rate was rewarded with a crucial try in Saracens win over Toulon, overtaking the great Brian O'Driscoll in the record books in the process.

10. Finn Russell

The Scotland fly-half was instrumental in leading Glasgow to their first European Cup quarter-final. He controlled the game from the first minute, making breaks for fun, sending players through holes as well as near perfection when kicking with ball in hand.

9. Rhys Webb

Got through an hour of work in his comeback match from ankle surgery. Distribution was sound and managed to cross the whitewash as Ospreys beat Newcastle in the Challenge Cup.
Photo By Brendan Moran/Sportsfile via Getty Images

1. Gordon Reid

At the heart of a dominant Glasgow scrum, tireless at the breakdown and an offload that started the Mark Bennett try. Gordon Reid put in one of his best performances in a Glasgow jersey.

2. Fraser Brown

14 carries for a front row forward epitomises the Glasgow performance. A near perfect line out and powerful scrum gave the Glasgow back line the set piece platform to punish Leicester.

3. Tadhg Furlong

The 24-year-old hardly puts a foot wrong and is a big part of Leinster's dominance at set piece.

4. Maro Itoje

Saracens clash against Toulon was a bruising encounter and Itoje more than held his own on both attack and defence. 13 completed tackles and none missed.

5. Jonny Gray

Glasgow's captain is having a season for the record books and it's no coincidence that his vein of form coincides with Glasgow's first appearance in a European Cup quarter-final. Secured the bonus point with a well taken try just before half-time.

6. Ryan Wilson

His second half try was just reward for an outstanding performance. The openside caused Leicester no end of problems at the breakdown and was a vital link player.

7. Josh van der Flier

The Leinster openside was a menace at the breakdown and in defence in tandem with Jamie Heaslip, and will be hopeful for more opportunities for his country in the Six Nations.

8. CJ Stander

Continues to win man of the match awards for fun at Munster. You can't argue with his numbers; 18 carries for 66 metres, and 13 tackles with none missed against Racing 92.

TJ wrote:Guns old chap - you do really show some horrendous ignorance and Neanderthal attitudes there.  feminism is all about and only about gender equality.

I suggest you go and read some of the core works to gain some understanding.

Interesting, I have never read a feminist manifesto or campaign that championed men's rights and issues.

In Ireland there is very high male suicide rates
Single fathers are treated like complete and utter dog sh1t in family law in Ireland. If you are unmarried you have to get the mothers permission to be a guardian for example. There is no automatic guardianship for unmarried fathers in Ireland.
women tend to attract more favourable sentences in court in general
There is a reverse gender wage gap for men aged 18 to 40 without kids

I have never seen any feminist activist speak out against any of these issues. Maybe its you that's ignorant? I really feel sorry for you if you think that feminism is only about gender equality. It really isnt and that's why I don't support it.

Gender equality... that's complicated...

Does that mean a top female rugby player should be paid as much as a top male rugby player?

I would say no, it's about demand and supply. Popularity, revenue etc.

I am also against female tennis players getting paid the same prize money as men because the men's and women's game are different. The men play best of five and is a more popular game. In my mind that doesn't make me anti female -it's just the reality that generally a more popular type of sport generates more revenue.

I don't see anything wrong with promoting strong female role models in all industries though. Also I think in films for example it's good to have strong female protagonists like Sigourney Weaver's Ripley in Alien and Sarah Connor in Terminator. Probably not enough.

In women's rugby I think Maggie Alphonsi is a great diplomat and role model.

Guns - you really need to read a bit more and to learn a bit about what feminism actually is. Its not what you seem to think it is in any way.

TJ wrote:Guns - you really need to read a bit more and to learn a bit about what feminism actually is.  Its not what you seem to think it is in any way.

TJ I suggest you educate yourself a little more on the subject. You have a very idealistic view of what you think feminism is. The reality and application in every day life is very different.

It doesn't represent my voice so I see no reason why I should weigh in behind it.

Guns - I have read most of the core texts - have you? I have been politically active fighting for equality for 40 years - have you? Its clear you simply do not understand what feminism is. A good start is Greers female Eunuch - still one of the seminal texts. Betty Friedman would be your nest step. Then go and have a look at some stats for earnings power, promotions etc.

Your views are straight out of the Daily wail and their feminazi nonsense and bear absolutely no comparison to reality.

TJ wrote:Guns - I have read most of the core texts - have you?  I have been politically active fighting for equality for 40 years - have you?  Its clear you simply do not understand what feminism is.  A good start is Greers female Eunuch - still one of the seminal texts.   Betty Friedman would be your nest step. Then go and have a look at some stats for earnings power, promotions etc.

Your views are straight out of the Daily wail and their feminazi nonsense and bear absolutely no comparison to reality.

Not really, you haven't countered his points, just said 'read more'.

TJ wrote:Guns - I have read most of the core texts - have you?  I have been politically active fighting for equality for 40 years - have you?  Its clear you simply do not understand what feminism is.  A good start is Greers female Eunuch - still one of the seminal texts.   Betty Friedman would be your nest step. Then go and have a look at some stats for earnings power, promotions etc.

Your views are straight out of the Daily wail and their feminazi nonsense and bear absolutely no comparison to reality.

Summarise my views and tell me which you disagree with and why?

The only opinions you have given is that I am a Neandrathal, ignorant, daily mail reader etc.

http://library.duke.edu/digitalcollections/wlmpc_wlmms01014/

Hang on people.

Why is everybody ganging up on GunsGermsV2 ? He has his opinion, that's his right. You need to see things from HIS point of view as well as your own.

Whilst everybody here has made some very good points, so has the person you are wolf packing on. Although I might not agree with all that GunsGernsV2 has said, I take his opinions on board, especially his single father stance. I would love to see the day when these feminist groups support the Fathers for Justice movement.

I hate this wolf pack mentality on this forum, I have been a victim of it all too often. At least beshocked has given an even handed opinion on it.

Anyway, lets get back to talking about rugby. The Lions we were talking about weren't we ?

TJ wrote:http://library.duke.edu/digitalcollections/wlmpc_wlmms01014/

OK, so some evidence of the theory but not exactly a campaign or action.

TJ wrote:http://library.duke.edu/digitalcollections/wlmpc_wlmms01014/

TJ summarise any points I have made and challenge them if you like. The only challenge so far has been name calling.

The problem with feminism is you can find a million articles discussing womens rights, which I am not necessarly opposed to, however, there is very little out there representing the male voice. There is no balance.

Feminism has its place in societies where women are treated unfairly however, in western society, Ireland for example women and men are by and large treated equally.

There will probably always be issues to iron out but for me feminism by and large addresses female issues and not the glaringly obvious male ones.

For example there is an article nearly every other week about the gender wage gap in Ireland which by and largely claims that women are treated unfairly in the work place and yet for my demographic women actually get paid more in Ireland than men.

You never see any column inches on this nor do any of these articles ever drill down to reveal the real reasons why on average women are paid less. Many of the actual reasons suggest it isnt because there is any inherent discrimination at play.

The trouble with modern feminism is that it has been taken over by western chatterati. There are plenty of parts of the world where feminism is absolutely necessary, but you hardly ever hear of how to solve these problems. The beeb would rather cover ad nausem how council secretaries don’t earn quite the same as dustbin men, rather than middle eastern women being forced to hide their faces in public for example. In the western world feminism has largely become part of the ‘let’s blame someone else’ mind set, and is pretty much redundant. I’m sure that Maro would agree.

Barney McGrew did it wrote:The trouble with modern feminism is that it has been taken over by western chatterati. There are plenty of parts of the world where feminism is absolutely necessary, but you hardly ever hear of how to solve these problems. The beeb would rather cover ad nausem how council secretaries don’t earn quite the same as dustbin men, rather than middle eastern women being forced to hide their faces in public for example. In the western world feminism has largely become part of the ‘let’s blame someone else’ mind set, and is pretty much redundant. I’m sure that Maro would agree.

Agree with this completely.

TJ wrote:scrum.coms lions team of the week ie the guys just from last weeks games that impressed the most.

15. Stuart Hogg

Another strong performance from the Scotland and Glasgow fullback. Joined the line with great effect and operated as a second distributor, regularly putting the likes of Seymour and Lee Jones into space.

14. Tommy Seymour

Hit a superb line to score Glasgow's first try and set the wheels in motion. He has offerings everything you want in a winger; intelligent footballer coming off his wing to great effect combined with pace and power.

13. Will Addison

Addison put in a man of the match performance for Sale Sharks including a superb individual try to see his team snap a 10 match losing streak in all competitions against Scarlets.

12. Robbie Henshaw

Showed a turn of pace for his first try and was close in support like any good midfielder should be as he barged over his second during Leinster's draw over Castres.

11. Chris Ashton

Looked lively throughout and his work-rate was rewarded with a crucial try in Saracens win over Toulon, overtaking the great Brian O'Driscoll in the record books in the process.

10. Finn Russell

The Scotland fly-half was instrumental in leading Glasgow to their first European Cup quarter-final. He controlled the game from the first minute, making breaks for fun, sending players through holes as well as near perfection when kicking with ball in hand.

9. Rhys Webb

Got through an hour of work in his comeback match from ankle surgery. Distribution was sound and managed to cross the whitewash as Ospreys beat Newcastle in the Challenge Cup.
Photo By Brendan Moran/Sportsfile via Getty Images

1. Gordon Reid

At the heart of a dominant Glasgow scrum, tireless at the breakdown and an offload that started the Mark Bennett try. Gordon Reid put in one of his best performances in a Glasgow jersey.

2. Fraser Brown

14 carries for a front row forward epitomises the Glasgow performance. A near perfect line out and powerful scrum gave the Glasgow back line the set piece platform to punish Leicester.

3. Tadhg Furlong

The 24-year-old hardly puts a foot wrong and is a big part of Leinster's dominance at set piece.

4. Maro Itoje

Saracens clash against Toulon was a bruising encounter and Itoje more than held his own on both attack and defence. 13 completed tackles and none missed.

5. Jonny Gray

Glasgow's captain is having a season for the record books and it's no coincidence that his vein of form coincides with Glasgow's first appearance in a European Cup quarter-final. Secured the bonus point with a well taken try just before half-time.

6. Ryan Wilson

His second half try was just reward for an outstanding performance. The openside caused Leicester no end of problems at the breakdown and was a vital link player.

7. Josh van der Flier

The Leinster openside was a menace at the breakdown and in defence in tandem with Jamie Heaslip, and will be hopeful for more opportunities for his country in the Six Nations.

8. CJ Stander

Continues to win man of the match awards for fun at Munster. You can't argue with his numbers; 18 carries for 66 metres, and 13 tackles with none missed against Racing 92.

7 Scottish players in that team - a few years ago, no-one in their right mind would have even whispered that. And from 1 team as well

It truly was an awe inspiring display (and being at the ground was special)

Only one game, I know, but considering Finn Russel is getting called out almost every week now for 'outstanding, subliminal, controlling and mercurial' play - it must be getting time to consider he is not just a flaky one game fluke

Not top of the pile to go, yet, but certainly improving his stock

Guys, could you please take this chat to a different thread - thanks

I think these performances for Glasgow are putting Russell in the conversation, but the 6 Nations will be where people really stake their claim.

Scottrf wrote:I think these performances for Glasgow are putting Russell in the conversation, but the 6 Nations will be where people really stake their claim.

Certainly agree

the 6 nations are going to be key for a lot

Some will get injured

Some will play themselves in

Some will play themselves out

and some will not play but will still tour (:-) )

I'm triggered by all this mansplaning.

Everyone knows, everything is the fault of white-supremist capitalist hetro patriarchy.

There needs to by more women of colour being represented on this board, I think we should insist that 20% of all posts are by people who identify as such. If you don't completely agree with me you are racist, sexist, fascist, bigoted transphobe.

Riskysports wrote:Only one game, I know, but considering Finn Russel is getting called out almost every week now for 'outstanding, subliminal, controlling and mercurial' play - it must be getting time to consider he is not just a flaky one game fluke

Finn Russel is by far not a one game fluke. I have seen him carve defences up all too often in the Pro12, he has an eye for goal, and he has got a decent range, not the longest, but he is up there. The thing is for Russel, he has been playing behind a very good Glasgow pack, he has had a good platform for most games. This does not always happen when he plays for Scotland. This is when I have seen him come up a bit short.

You can bet your bottom dollar that the All Blacks will be targeting the 10 channel, can Finn Russell take over an hour of constant tackling, getting hit hard, and then being able to dust himself down to do what a 10 needs to do ? I do not think he can, not yet anyway. I think though, that Finn Russell has all the attributes to be a major contender for the Lions tour after this one. He will have a bit more experience in his game.

Well said Lorddowlais.

Gunsgerms might well have overly old fashioned views but as you say he's entitled to his opinions.

Miaow I never said Biggar is a bad player, he's a solid 10. I just think the Lions have better options.

Never claimed Biggar was useless, overrated by Welsh fans? Perhaps.

England bowing out of the RWC wasn't nice of course but England have recovered well.


People get overexcited by Jones too. He's done well but he has a good squad and good assistant coaches.


Of course most fans are guilty of overhyping their players and I include myself in that number.


I don't dislike Wales, I just feel that Gatland has squandered your potential. Dai Young might well be ready to take over in 2-3 years. I've only been saying you shouldn't be satisfied with continually losing to Australia just as I was unsatisfied with England being dumped out of their own RWC.

Do not accept mediocrity, try and improve.

Ireland have not accepted mediocrity, they've gone on to beat NZ. The tri nations are not unbeatable juggernauts. Surely Ireland and England proved this last year?


The Lions must believe they can beat NZ.

beshocked wrote:Ireland have not accepted mediocrity, they've gone on to beat NZ. The tri nations are not unbeatable juggernauts. Surely Ireland and England proved this last year?

So did Wales, when we beat South Africa.

It has nothing to do with being old fashioned. I believe in equality. I just don't believe that feminism is the vehicle to get us there. It is an out dated concept itself.

"Feminist" Sweden is the r*** capital of the western world, any outrage from them? No, cause it's not caused by white men. Feminism is no longer about women, it's an anti-west marxist movement taken over by "social justice".

I wanted to see Russell leading Scotland to a victory over Australia in the AIs.

It was possible but didn't happen. I thought Russell's game management and overall control wasn't good enough in the 2nd half. Now you could say it's overly harsh to focus on him. Of course rugby is not just about 1 player but 10 is a pivotal position, I felt him and Hogg allowed Australia to get on top territoriality as the game went on.

It's not as if Australia were much better than Scotland they only marginally won.

6 nations is coming up, time for Russell to shine.


Lorddowlais so did every man and their dog. Italy beat SA too.

SA are not the force they once were. They are down to 6th in the world and wouldn't surprise me if they drop further.

Let's not pretend SA are as strong as Australia and NZ these days.

I like giving credit when I feel it is due. I thought Wales gutsy win vs England in the RWC was impressive. Managing to deal with those injuries in the back line.

LordDowlais wrote:Hang on people.

Why is everybody ganging up on GunsGermsV2 ? He has his opinion, that's his right. You need to see things from HIS point of view as well as your own.

A rugby thread probably isn't the best place to discuss something such as feminism but there is a point to be made about opinions and discussion that I'm sure could benefit the Rugby based discussion...

It may be Guns' right to have an opinion, but it ends there.

Guns has no right for his opinion to be respected.
No-one is obliged to see things from Guns' point of view.

Guns' opinion, like everyone elses, needs to earn respect. Any point someone makes should be presented with reasoning and where possible facts. If it isn't it can be freely dismissed. You could argue that it SHOULD be freely dismissed. Don't make everyone's opinion out to be special or guarded, they're not. Anyone can wheel out any old tripe, slap the protective moniker of "my opinion" on it and then act all offended if it gets ripped to shreds. That's a terrible place to be if you want to have a meaningful debate.

Guns - I apologise for using your name, I'm not weighing in on the feminist debate, any points you made or how you made them. You just so happened to be the subject of the message I disagree with.

But if you want to disagree with a point, disagree with the point. People were attacking the poster 'neanderthal', 'ignorance' etc without actually countering it.

Agreed, that's someone else demonstrating an equally poorly constructed (and irrelevant to the point) opinion. And should be similarly dismissed.

That doesn't change what I said though. The point made in the post I quoted was that all opinions should be automatically respected. I disagree.

I think sometimes the issue is that some feminists sometimes give the impression they are anti male in their desire to push female equality. I think balance is needed. Ultimately one must strive to be both pro male and pro female. Respect your fellow human beings regardless of sex. If someone makes a comment belittling women like Trump has then rightly he should be criticised for that. On the other hand it is double standards if it is deemed acceptable to ogle a man but not a woman.

I am pleased that in the UK we are progressive. Having our 2nd female PM whether you like her or not.

It's also amusing Conservatives have had two more female PMs than Labour's 0.

Well I think it's quite clear from this discussion that what feminists really need is a bunch of white men on the internet to explain what they think to them.

Gooseberry wrote:Well I think it's quite clear from this discussion that what feminists really need is a bunch of white men on the internet to explain what they think to them.  

I dont think it would do them any harm at all. Anyway how do you know the people on here are white men? Odds are that they are I suppose.

I don't think Itoje will be discounted from captaincy discussions for being left wing.

Riskysports wrote:

TJ wrote:scrum.coms lions team of the week ie the guys just from last weeks games that impressed the most.

15. Stuart Hogg

Another strong performance from the Scotland and Glasgow fullback. Joined the line with great effect and operated as a second distributor, regularly putting the likes of Seymour and Lee Jones into space.

14. Tommy Seymour

Hit a superb line to score Glasgow's first try and set the wheels in motion. He has offerings everything you want in a winger; intelligent footballer coming off his wing to great effect combined with pace and power.

13. Will Addison

Addison put in a man of the match performance for Sale Sharks including a superb individual try to see his team snap a 10 match losing streak in all competitions against Scarlets.

12. Robbie Henshaw

Showed a turn of pace for his first try and was close in support like any good midfielder should be as he barged over his second during Leinster's draw over Castres.

11. Chris Ashton

Looked lively throughout and his work-rate was rewarded with a crucial try in Saracens win over Toulon, overtaking the great Brian O'Driscoll in the record books in the process.

10. Finn Russell

The Scotland fly-half was instrumental in leading Glasgow to their first European Cup quarter-final. He controlled the game from the first minute, making breaks for fun, sending players through holes as well as near perfection when kicking with ball in hand.

9. Rhys Webb

Got through an hour of work in his comeback match from ankle surgery. Distribution was sound and managed to cross the whitewash as Ospreys beat Newcastle in the Challenge Cup.
Photo By Brendan Moran/Sportsfile via Getty Images

1. Gordon Reid

At the heart of a dominant Glasgow scrum, tireless at the breakdown and an offload that started the Mark Bennett try. Gordon Reid put in one of his best performances in a Glasgow jersey.

2. Fraser Brown

14 carries for a front row forward epitomises the Glasgow performance. A near perfect line out and powerful scrum gave the Glasgow back line the set piece platform to punish Leicester.

3. Tadhg Furlong

The 24-year-old hardly puts a foot wrong and is a big part of Leinster's dominance at set piece.

4. Maro Itoje

Saracens clash against Toulon was a bruising encounter and Itoje more than held his own on both attack and defence. 13 completed tackles and none missed.

5. Jonny Gray

Glasgow's captain is having a season for the record books and it's no coincidence that his vein of form coincides with Glasgow's first appearance in a European Cup quarter-final. Secured the bonus point with a well taken try just before half-time.

6. Ryan Wilson

His second half try was just reward for an outstanding performance. The openside caused Leicester no end of problems at the breakdown and was a vital link player.

7. Josh van der Flier

The Leinster openside was a menace at the breakdown and in defence in tandem with Jamie Heaslip, and will be hopeful for more opportunities for his country in the Six Nations.

8. CJ Stander

Continues to win man of the match awards for fun at Munster. You can't argue with his numbers; 18 carries for 66 metres, and 13 tackles with none missed against Racing 92.

7 Scottish players in that team - a few years ago, no-one in their right mind would have even whispered that. And from 1 team as well

It truly was an awe inspiring display (and being at the ground was special)

Only one game, I know, but considering Finn Russel is getting called out almost every week now for 'outstanding, subliminal, controlling and mercurial' play - it must be getting time to consider he is not just a flaky one game fluke

Not top of the pile to go, yet, but certainly improving his stock

No doubting Russell, but my issue with lists like this is that they're often compiled for...shall we say, surface fans. Look at the team: it's primarily Saracens and Glasgow, with a few other big team players from Munster, Leinster, Ospreys (despite being in the ECC, they're still obviously RCC quality) etc thrown in.

It's going to be a few sports journalists having a chat for ten minutes or so after they've wrapped up their articles about who they think played well this weekend, and they're going to rely (perhaps rightly) on players from the teams at the top, the most conspicuous teams, perhaps even just the teams that they managed to collectively watch.

This much should be obvious enough, but it does become something of a self fulfilling prophecy: Hogg plays well for Glasgow, Glasgow are winning in style, Hogg is still playing well. It doesn't mean it's untrue, but it makes it a lot easier to select a player for "team of the week" when their team is in great form. In fact, we see it regularly on this thread, most recently with a poster conflating Dan Biggar's abilities with historic failures by Wales, but it happens in a positive manner too. In short, teams like this mean very little to me, but then I didn't watch any of the games over the weekend so I'm in no position to suggest any alternatives haha, and I'm just talking in general.

LordDowlais wrote:
I hate this wolf pack mentality on this forum, I have been a victim of it all too often.

Anyone got a clue where I've lost the world's tiniest violin?

Miaow

Yes Saracens have had huge representation with 2 players in the XV.....

Glasgow only have 7.....

I do agree it's a bit lazy journalism though. Basically naming the more recognisable players.

Shame Jackson Wray hasn't had recognition for his impressive performance at 8.

Riskysports wrote:


Only one game, I know, but considering Finn Russel is getting called out almost every week now for 'outstanding, subliminal, controlling and mercurial' play - it must be getting time to consider he is not just a flaky one game fluke

Not top of the pile to go, yet, but certainly improving his stock

Yup, people love highlight reels. I maintain though that whenever I've seen him although he may be a gifted runner his decision making and execution are lacking. I'd level the same thing at Hogg, incidentally. A lot of people too easily build up when a player when he is fast. I understand that, it's eye catching. Far more likely to get noticed than a more pedestrian player that could be the glue that holds a team together. With Russell and Hogg I see players who choose the wrong option quicker than most.

Also, it was only the other week he was being pilloried for lacking the control to finish the game against Munster. Of course people will counter this and and point out all the good things he has done in games recently and that these outweigh the mistakes he has made. People might even be of the opinion that he hasn't made the mistakes I'm alluding to. I'm not going to debate that because I don't care if he is a good player for Glasgow or not. I think people need to get some context and remind themselves we are talking about being good enough for the lions in what will be the most challenging tour in recent history. He's been eye catching in putting away two teams in turmoil. Let's see what he does for Scotland first.

For my money, that goes for anyone who is without a history of being able to perform highly at test level. To tout someone without that history is wild speculation.

cascough wrote:

Riskysports wrote:


Only one game, I know, but considering Finn Russel is getting called out almost every week now for 'outstanding, subliminal, controlling and mercurial' play - it must be getting time to consider he is not just a flaky one game fluke

Not top of the pile to go, yet, but certainly improving his stock

Yup, people love highlight reels. I maintain though that whenever I've seen him although he may be a gifted runner his decision making and execution are lacking. I'd level the same thing at Hogg, incidentally. A lot of people too easily build up when a player when he is fast. I understand that, it's eye catching. Far more likely to get noticed than a more pedestrian player that could be the glue that holds a team together. With Russell and Hogg I see players who choose the wrong option quicker than most.

Also, it was only the other week he was being pilloried for lacking the control to finish the game against Munster. Of course people will counter this and and point out all the good things he has done in games recently and that these outweigh the mistakes he has made. People might even be of the opinion that he hasn't made the mistakes I'm alluding to. I'm not going to debate that because I don't care if he is a good player for Glasgow or not. I think people need to get some context and remind themselves we are talking about being good enough for the lions in what will be the most challenging tour in recent history. He's been eye catching in putting away two teams in turmoil. Let's see what he does for Scotland first.

For my money, that goes for anyone who is without a history of being able to perform highly at test level. To tout someone without that history is wild speculation.

I think I was quite balanced in my opinion, even stating not top choice, but improving his stock

THe whole point of forums is to widley speculate :-)

Yeah fair enough, you did say improving his stock.

risky - Finn russell in a league game recently showed exctly why he is still considered flacky. Would have looked out of his depth in Melrose seconds playing like he did that day.

Beshocked - I agree Jackson Wray was very good at the weekend

TJ wrote:risky - Finn russell in a league game recently showed exctly why he is still considered flacky.  Would have looked out of his depth in Melrose seconds playing like he did that day.

Beshocked - I agree Jackson Wray was very good at the weekend

Wow - how to go completely overboard

he seems now to be in the category, of every mistake, every slightly lower than normal game is an indication of complete inability to be a professional rugby player

He is enjoying that with Hogg now

^ Agreed.

With respect, you're talking pish TJ.

Russell is not flaky at all. He's made some mistakes....woop dee doo. As have all the other FH's in the world.

He does far more good than bad.

And Cascough......Hogg is more than just fast.

I don't mind the 'team of the week' articles, especially as they're inevitably intended as a summary of the week's rugby, and the upcoming Lions tour provides a useful context within which particular players are deemed suitable or not. It also helps to remove the French and non-GB&I players from the conversation!

What I don't like are lazy 'players to watch' articles, of which Planet Rugby are masters, which do nothing to bring your eye to any young star you haven't heard of, and just regurgitate players already doing well in international competition. The latest Planet Rugby 'Players to watch in 2017' article genuinely included such unheralded names as Owen Farrell, Liam Williams, Dylan Hartley, and Beauden Barrett. Yup, the England captain, and the World Player of the Year. Heard of them? Yeah, me neither...

The BBC are almost as bad. They're sure to write a 'Guide to the Six Nations' fluff piece that will list basic information for the casual fan. I'd lay my mortgage on the 'player to watch' for Scotland being Jonny Gray or Stuart Hogg. Yes they're great, but everyone has heard of them. Why not pick Ali Price or Hamish Watson? Would you bet against the BBC picking Sergio Parisse for Italy, or Owen Farrell for England?