Lions 2017 - Name your team, captain and whatever else you want to harp on about

First topic message reminder :

My wishlist:

I hope AWJ is named captain to keep the Irish and English lads in check.
I hope Robshaw gets picked, he deserves to tour at least once at this point.
I hope the refereeing is strictly on a level playing field.
I hope NZ are made accountable for any incidents where they break anyone's collarbone and put them out of the game for 13 months.
The Lions to be at the very least competitive and win one of the first two tests.
I'd like to see Tadhg Furlong get a run out.
Would like to see an uncapped player in the squad.
No charity caps, Tom court, Shane Williams etc.
I hope Gatland comes up with a much more interesting and variable game plan than on the last Lions tour.
Dylan Hartley calls a ref the C word on the last day of the six nations and misses the tour.

Griff wrote:

The Great Aukster wrote:

True Raven wrote:They're just bitter Irishmen because Gatland had the audacity to drop BOD from a test team.  Seems three and a half years later, they still haven't got over it

Drop them all I say... or rather don't select them in the first place.

Mind you three and a half years is small beer considering Gats is still holding his grudge against being dropped by Ireland seventeen years ago.

Aukster, you realise that you're no different on Lions threads than PhilBB is on Pro12 threads? Exactly the same.

Since when has PhilBB used facts and logic?

eirebilly wrote:I was against Best being made Ireland captain and just thought it was a stop gap until POM got fit but right now I would not remove it from him as he has proven himself to be an excellent captain. I would have Best as the Lions captain.

In the midfield I would have Henshaw at 12 and Joseph at 13.

Reading POC's book, Best would be mad to accept the captaincy of the Lions what with the Poopie he will get from the media and having to deal with Gatland's mind games.

POC's book is an outstanding read, very insightful.

I think Best would handle Gatland and the Media well. I think he is the perfect captain for the lions.

Best isn't sure enough of his place to be named captain. Allegedly Gatland doesn't like him as a player, neither do the media. He makes very few of the journalist's teams especially the English ones, so all it would take is a couple of missed throws for that section of the media to be baying for his blood.

Do you have that list of imported thugs that the club's being in for the lions games. You deal in facts yes?

Just caught the 2nd half of the scarlets game but that's why I don't think Sexton is nailed on at 10. Farrell is rather good.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Do you have that list of imported thugs that the club's being in for the lions games. You deal in facts yes?

The fact is that anyone naming a thug on a public forum would be naive. Another fact is that this site doesn't condone libel. Most posters are clever enough and have been watching the Lions long enough to remember the incidents and form their own conclusions - fact!

I would probably go with something like:

01. Mako Vunipola
02. Dylan Hartley
03. Tadhg Furlong
04. Jonny Gray
05. Maro Itoje
06. Sean O'Brien
07. Sam Warbuton
08. Toby Faletau

09. Connor Murray
10. Owen Farrell

11. Liam Williams
12. Robbie Henshaw
13. Jon Joseph
14. Anthony Watson
15. Stuart Hogg

Lots of rugby to be played between now and the summer though.

I don't understand why everyone has Stuart Hogg as a starter at fullback on the Lions. On form over the last 6 months, I'd have both Liam Williams and Simon Zebo ahead of him.

Sin é wrote:I don't understand why everyone has Stuart Hogg as a starter at fullback on the Lions. On form over the last 6 months, I'd have both Liam Williams and Simon Zebo ahead of him.

At the same time I don't understand why anyone has Mako Vunipola starting, his scrummaging would be a huge problem against the AB's.

So you're not dealing facts then at all. You could just name some players brought in specifically for the Lions then left those clubs. I can't think of any any but you're dealing in facts.

1.Vunipola
2.George
3.Nel
4.Itoje
5.Gray (c)
6.Stander
7.Tipuric
8.Vunipola

9.Murray
10.Sexton

11.Seymour
12.Henshaw
13.Joseph
14.Watson
15.Hogg

16.Best 17.McGrath 18.Furlong 19.Henderson 20.Faletau 21.Youngs 22.Farrell 23.Williams

Picked my 23 then picked my captain.

1.Marler 2.Hartley 3.Cole 4.Jones 5.Kruis 6.Robshaw 7.O'Brien 8.Heaslip
9.Webb 10.Ford 11.May 12.Davies 13.Bennett 14.Zebo 15.Brown

Those would finish off my squad.

The Great Aukster wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Do you have that list of imported thugs that the club's being in for the lions games. You deal in facts yes?

The fact is that anyone naming a thug on a public forum would be naive. Another fact is that this site doesn't condone libel. Most posters are clever enough and have been watching the Lions long enough to remember the incidents and form their own conclusions - fact!

There's libel posted on this forum every single day! I don't think most players or clubs are really going to make a big deal about it though or the site would be closed down by now.

You do wonder whether Duncan McCrae couldn't have been flown over in 2009 to reacquaint himself with ROG before the 2nd Test. With hindsight the Lions coaches would have bought him several pints!

Cyril wrote:

You do wonder whether Duncan McCrae couldn't have been flown over in 2009 to reacquaint himself with ROG before the 2nd Test. With hindsight the Lions coaches would have bought him several pints!

I have read some shoite on here but you take the cake. You simply are a horrible individual.

eirebilly wrote:

Cyril wrote:

You do wonder whether Duncan McCrae couldn't have been flown over in 2009 to reacquaint himself with ROG before the 2nd Test. With hindsight the Lions coaches would have bought him several pints!

I have read some shoite on here but you take the cake. You simply are a horrible individual.

It was a joke. Maybe I should have included a 

I hope you will get all touchy about this the next time someone mentions Hartley or Ashton 

No need to get personal either.

Cyril wrote:

eirebilly wrote:

Cyril wrote:

You do wonder whether Duncan McCrae couldn't have been flown over in 2009 to reacquaint himself with ROG before the 2nd Test. With hindsight the Lions coaches would have bought him several pints!

I have read some shoite on here but you take the cake. You simply are a horrible individual.

It was a joke. Maybe I should have included a 

I hope you will get all touchy about this the next time someone mentions Hartley or Ashton 

No need to get personal either.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Frqdj2x8--A

There you go, watch that again and explain to me why you think that is funny and something to joke about.

eirebilly wrote:

Cyril wrote:

eirebilly wrote:

Cyril wrote:

You do wonder whether Duncan McCrae couldn't have been flown over in 2009 to reacquaint himself with ROG before the 2nd Test. With hindsight the Lions coaches would have bought him several pints!

I have read some shoite on here but you take the cake. You simply are a horrible individual.

It was a joke. Maybe I should have included a 

I hope you will get all touchy about this the next time someone mentions Hartley or Ashton 

No need to get personal either.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Frqdj2x8--A

There you go, watch that again and explain to me why you think that is funny and something to joke about.

I've seen it plenty of time watching the Lions video. No, it's not funny. It's assault basically. It did tend to happen on a rugby field back then and still does occasionally.

Ok, it was a bad taste joke. Which I'm sure you've never made.

I think you're making a bit too much of this to be honest.

Would love to see O'Halloran get picked at fb for Ireland, have a great tournament and get a seat on the plane.

Ringrose to.

Sin é wrote:I don't understand why everyone has Stuart Hogg as a starter at fullback on the Lions. On form over the last 6 months, I'd have both Liam Williams and Simon Zebo ahead of him.

Usually trying to shoehorn a scot in the side.

I think in terms of attacking play Hogg has been head and shoulders above any other full back in Europe for the last two to three seasons.
That said his ability under the high ball is inconsistent, and his defence one on one is similar to that of a revolving door; against Saturday for his yellow card, look back to France in the six nations next year and several other occasions.
Gatland will have to make a decision whether the benefits of having Hogg outweigh the negatives, for Scotland there's no question, the Lions would be more complicated.

123456789 wrote:I think in terms of attacking play Hogg has been head and shoulders above any other full back in Europe for the last two to three seasons.
That said his ability under the high ball is inconsistent, and his defence one on one is similar to that of a revolving door; against Saturday for his yellow card, look back to France in the six nations next year and several other occasions.
Gatland will have to make a decision whether the benefits of having Hogg outweigh the negatives, for Scotland there's no question, the Lions would be more complicated.

Williams by a country mile with Hogg a close second.

Gwlad wrote:

123456789 wrote:I think in terms of attacking play Hogg has been head and shoulders above any other full back in Europe for the last two to three seasons.
That said his ability under the high ball is inconsistent, and his defence one on one is similar to that of a revolving door; against Saturday for his yellow card, look back to France in the six nations next year and several other occasions.
Gatland will have to make a decision whether the benefits of having Hogg outweigh the negatives, for Scotland there's no question, the Lions would be more complicated.

Williams by a country mile with Hogg a close second.

Interesting juxtaposition.

I do rate Williams but I don't think he has that magic that Hogg has in attack but Williams is a far more solid player.
I would have Williams and Watson on the wings to exploit their kick chase, and if it were up to me I'd have Hogg because I think he'll get you more tries than he'll concede but I don't think it's as cut and dry a case as people have decided.
That said he tends to up his game fairly dramatically toward the mid of the six nations onwards on the harder grounds. I remember a phase last season from the France game through to probably the semi-final of the Pro12 when he produced something special every time he played. That said every time he's one on one against someone I'm almost resigned to them scoring. I do think if the Lions are to beat New Zealand a player with a bit of X factor could prove the difference. If I were Gatland  I'd play a very conservative game plan but a player in the mound of Hogg could provide a bit of magic, and if he provides just one or two of them in a game or even just across the series that could prove the difference.

Hogg will be a turnstile against the New Zealand backs, I do not think we will be attacking much, so Hoggs supposedly unmatchable lightning attacking play will be far less affective, what we need is somebody who can and will tackle as the last line of defence, and for me Liam Williams is miles ahead of anybody in his field when it come to that part of a fullbacks game.

Also, Liam Williams was the only player the All Blacks said they worried about on the last tour down there, so that must hold some credence.

Cyril wrote:
I've seen it plenty of time watching the Lions video. No, it's not funny. It's assault basically. It did tend to happen on a rugby field back then and still does occasionally.

Ok, it was a bad taste joke. Which I'm sure you've never made.

I think you're making a bit too much of this to be honest.

It was a bad incident and McRae is a knacker but should be fair game to poke some fun at it IMO. That said I once got a head butt in the face from a Munster fan cause I said in jest ROG would make a better jockey than a rugby player.

They are a really touchy lot at the best of times.

123456789 wrote:

Gwlad wrote:

123456789 wrote:I think in terms of attacking play Hogg has been head and shoulders above any other full back in Europe for the last two to three seasons.
That said his ability under the high ball is inconsistent, and his defence one on one is similar to that of a revolving door; against Saturday for his yellow card, look back to France in the six nations next year and several other occasions.
Gatland will have to make a decision whether the benefits of having Hogg outweigh the negatives, for Scotland there's no question, the Lions would be more complicated.

Williams by a country mile with Hogg a close second.

Interesting juxtaposition.

I do rate Williams but I don't think he has that magic that Hogg has in attack but Williams is a far more solid player.
I would have Williams and Watson on the wings to exploit their kick chase, and if it were up to me I'd have Hogg because I think he'll get you more tries than he'll concede but I don't think it's as cut and dry a case as people have decided.
That said he tends to up his game fairly dramatically toward the mid of the six nations onwards on the harder grounds. I remember a phase last season from the France game through to probably the semi-final of the Pro12 when he produced something special every time he played. That said every time he's one on one against someone I'm almost resigned to them scoring. I do think if the Lions are to beat New Zealand a player with a bit of X factor could prove the difference. If I were Gatland  I'd play a very conservative game plan but a player in the mound of Hogg could provide a bit of magic, and if he provides just one or two of them in a game or even just across the series that could prove the difference.

You can't say that on here mun, the posters will go crazy! Gatland has already ruined the Lions once with his selections and 'Warrenball' tactics!

Id say Gatland is going to play a conservative game plan. I expect him to pick Owen Farrell at out half and keep it tight.

GunsGermsV2 wrote:Id say Gatland is going to play a conservative game plan. I expect him to pick Owen Farrell at out half and keep it tight.

well that's Hogg out then.

LordDowlais wrote:

GunsGermsV2 wrote:Id say Gatland is going to play a conservative game plan. I expect him to pick Owen Farrell at out half and keep it tight.

well that's Hogg out then.

Yeah probably. Id like to see Hogg start but it will be Williams or Brown Id say.

GunsGermsV2 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

GunsGermsV2 wrote:Id say Gatland is going to play a conservative game plan. I expect him to pick Owen Farrell at out half and keep it tight.

well that's Hogg out then.

Yeah probably. Id like to see Hogg start but it will be Williams or Brown Id say.

New Zealand would have an absolute field day with Hogg at fullback.

A team that should be comfortable in SH conditions:

Mako, Hartley, WP Nel, Ball, Symons (admit I am struggling in second row), BillyV, Hardy, Faletau, Simpson, Anscombe, Rokudugani, Tuilagi, Payne, Solomona, Maitland

LondonTiger wrote:A team that should be comfortable in SH conditions:

Mako, Hartley, WP Nel, Ball, Symons (admit I am struggling in second row), BillyV, Hardy, Faletau, Simpson, Anscombe, Rokudugani, Tuilagi, Payne, Solomona, Maitland

CJ Stander
Josh van der Flier
Finlay Bealham
Joey Carbery
Jared Payne


I must admit, I was quite shocked by the amount of SH born players that were in the Ireland squad. I thought they were one of the better nations for not doing this, I would hate to see Scotland's stats on this.

LordDowlais wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:A team that should be comfortable in SH conditions:

Mako, Hartley, WP Nel, Ball, Symons (admit I am struggling in second row), BillyV, Hardy, Faletau, Simpson, Anscombe, Rokudugani, Tuilagi, Payne, Solomona, Maitland

CJ Stander
Josh van der Flier
Finlay Bealham
Joey Carbery
Jared Payne


I must admit, I was quite shocked by the amount of SH born players that were in the Ireland squad. I thought they were one of the better nations for not doing this, I would hate to see Scotland's stats on this.

How many are there in the squad? I thought there were only three or four and at least two of those Bealam and Carbury have come through the club system in Ireland and come from Irish backgrounds.

The Wales team have Falateau and Anscome and Jake Ball came through Western force albeit born in England. Not that different really.

123456789 wrote:

Gwlad wrote:

123456789 wrote:I think in terms of attacking play Hogg has been head and shoulders above any other full back in Europe for the last two to three seasons.
That said his ability under the high ball is inconsistent, and his defence one on one is similar to that of a revolving door; against Saturday for his yellow card, look back to France in the six nations next year and several other occasions.
Gatland will have to make a decision whether the benefits of having Hogg outweigh the negatives, for Scotland there's no question, the Lions would be more complicated.

Williams by a country mile with Hogg a close second.

Interesting juxtaposition.

I do rate Williams but I don't think he has that magic that Hogg has in attack but Williams is a far more solid player.
I would have Williams and Watson on the wings to exploit their kick chase, and if it were up to me I'd have Hogg because I think he'll get you more tries than he'll concede but I don't think it's as cut and dry a case as people have decided.
That said he tends to up his game fairly dramatically toward the mid of the six nations onwards on the harder grounds. I remember a phase last season from the France game through to probably the semi-final of the Pro12 when he produced something special every time he played. That said every time he's one on one against someone I'm almost resigned to them scoring. I do think if the Lions are to beat New Zealand a player with a bit of X factor could prove the difference. If I were Gatland  I'd play a very conservative game plan but a player in the mound of Hogg could provide a bit of magic, and if he provides just one or two of them in a game or even just across the series that could prove the difference.

I would have Hogg in the lead at the moment, but if we're talking about taking a player to NZ in June, would Hogg's "hard ground" ability come into the equation? Who would you prefer in a mudbath, Hogg or one of Williams, Kearney or Brown?

The three I have on the plane already in the back three are Williams, Watson and Hogg, and I would play all three in the first game - because we will need an attacking game to beat the All Blacks. Whether those are the guys that line up for the first test would depend on how the tour games go.

Whilst van der Flier sounds like a saffa is he not Irish born and bred from dutch ancestors?

How the hell did I forget Stander in my team?

LondonTiger wrote:Whilst van der Flier sounds like a saffa is he not Irish born and bred from dutch ancestors?

How the hell did I forget Stander in my team?

Yes. Both his parents were born in Ireland I think as was he.

'van der Flier' has to be one of the better names in rugby - but there isn't any SH connection, his grandparents moved to Ireland from the Netherlands in the 50s.

Real shame he is not a winger though. with that name.

GunsGermsV2 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:A team that should be comfortable in SH conditions:

Mako, Hartley, WP Nel, Ball, Symons (admit I am struggling in second row), BillyV, Hardy, Faletau, Simpson, Anscombe, Rokudugani, Tuilagi, Payne, Solomona, Maitland

CJ Stander
Josh van der Flier
Finlay Bealham
Joey Carbery
Jared Payne


I must admit, I was quite shocked by the amount of SH born players that were in the Ireland squad. I thought they were one of the better nations for not doing this, I would hate to see Scotland's stats on this.

How many are there in the squad? I thought there were only three or four and at least two of those Bealam and Carbury have come through the club system in Ireland and come from Irish backgrounds.

The Wales team have Falateau and Anscome and Jake Ball came through Western force albeit born in England. Not that different really.

Sorry, I was just looking at through the squads, I was mistaken about Josh van der Flier, what an epic name by the way. There seems to be a few project players in the Irish system come to think of it, although they are clamping down now as far as I am aware. I am not aware of any players that have come through the Irish system from a young age so I will need to be educated there also.

This was not intended as a swipe though, I was just genuinely surprised. I think though, you are being a bit harsh on Falateau, he has lived in Wales since he was about 6yrs old.

Well its the same with Joey Carberry, that's the point I was making. Plus his parents are Irish too.

Finlay Bealam comes from an Irish background and has been here for 6 years and came through the club game.

The way the Irish system works is that there can only be one foreign player per position across all four provincial teams. The foreign players tend to be uncapped so that they can potentially play for Ireland. However, given that there are always three Irish players per position playing for the provinces Ireland squads usually have no more than a couple of project players at any one time.

System works well IMO.

GunsGermsV2 wrote:Well its the same with Joey Carberry, that's the point I was making. Plus his parents are Irish too.

Finlay Bealam comes from an Irish background and has been here for 6 years and came through the club game.

Were they both project players, as you call them in Ireland ?

LordDowlais wrote:

GunsGermsV2 wrote:Well its the same with Joey Carberry, that's the point I was making. Plus his parents are Irish too.

Finlay Bealam comes from an Irish background and has been here for 6 years and came through the club game.

Were they both project players, as you call them in Ireland ?

No because they both qualify for Irish citizenship before they came to Ireland.

GunsGermsV2 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

GunsGermsV2 wrote:Well its the same with Joey Carberry, that's the point I was making. Plus his parents are Irish too.

Finlay Bealam comes from an Irish background and has been here for 6 years and came through the club game.

Were they both project players, as you call them in Ireland ?

No because they both qualify for Irish citizenship before they came to Ireland.

Ah, so like the Ansombes of this world ?

What is classed as a project player though ? Was CJ Stander one ? Is Tyler Bleyendaal and Thomas du Toit one ?

I am just mentioning names I have seen play in the Pro12.

Anyone who isnt Irish qualified when they arrive. Yes Stander is one.

Quite canny by the IRFU then, approach a decent non qualified player without any caps, then if he is good enough cap him.

LordDowlais wrote:Quite canny by the IRFU then, approach a decent non qualified player without any caps, then if he is good enough cap him.

Its more about having player population/squad depth contingency than trying to bring the best players around the world to play for Ireland. I cant remember a time when more than 2 or 3 project players have been the starting 15 for Ireland. Usually its one or two.

I dont like it but those are World Rugby's rules. Some teams like Australia and France take the pi$$ though.

GunsGermsV2 wrote:I dont like it but those are World Rugby's rules. Some teams like Australia and France take the pi$$ though.

Yes I agree, there are some nasty stories with the way the French do it.

LordDowlais wrote:I must admit, I was quite shocked by the amount of SH born players that were in the Ireland squad. I thought they were one of the better nations for not doing this, I would hate to see Scotland's stats on this.

Of the latest Scotland squad, I think only five were born in the Southern Hemisphere: Hardie, Maitland, Strauss, Dell and du Preez.

What are the stats for Wales and England?

IanBru wrote:What are the stats for Wales and England?

For Wales off the top of my head, Gareth Anscombe and Talupe Faleteau. Although Talupe has been here since he was about 6yrs old, and Anscombe has a Welsh mother.

IanBru wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:I must admit, I was quite shocked by the amount of SH born players that were in the Ireland squad. I thought they were one of the better nations for not doing this, I would hate to see Scotland's stats on this.

Of the latest Scotland squad, I think only five were born in the Southern Hemisphere: Hardie, Maitland, Strauss, Dell and du Preez.

What are the stats for Wales and England?

What about Denton and Visser ? Or are they out of the reckoning ?

Scratch that, well Visser anyway, he's Dutch, I thought he was a Saffa for a minute then.