Lions 2017 - Name your team, captain and whatever else you want to harp on about

First topic message reminder :

My wishlist:

I hope AWJ is named captain to keep the Irish and English lads in check.
I hope Robshaw gets picked, he deserves to tour at least once at this point.
I hope the refereeing is strictly on a level playing field.
I hope NZ are made accountable for any incidents where they break anyone's collarbone and put them out of the game for 13 months.
The Lions to be at the very least competitive and win one of the first two tests.
I'd like to see Tadhg Furlong get a run out.
Would like to see an uncapped player in the squad.
No charity caps, Tom court, Shane Williams etc.
I hope Gatland comes up with a much more interesting and variable game plan than on the last Lions tour.
Dylan Hartley calls a ref the C word on the last day of the six nations and misses the tour.

I fail to see any 13 better defensively. If he's ruled out due to Gatland, Gatland was the wrong choice.

miaow wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Trying to be nice miaow and you go back to being like that.  You were aware Joseph tore his chest muscle in the first WC game I assume which was why I was saying judging his form from that is a little harsh.

Apologies. I'm willing to call it a truce, but I do seem to be have received a lot of flak from a number of posters in the last week having not been on here for about a month or so. It's hard to keep up with who hates me.

I agree injury was part of it, but then that's clearly the case for many players, Halfpenny included. For me, I still think Joseph needs to have a good 6Ns (Wales & Ireland particularly), but he could easily be the starting 13 for the Lions as his jinking and pace isn't common. If it were another coach, he'd clearly be the frontrunner- still is to many- but 13 is key to Gatland's defensive system, and I'm not sure about that aspect of his game outside of England (don't watch Bath). Take England's dominance of the last year away- which may or may not happen this 6Ns, but will happen against NZ- and you'll see his worth. Any weakness and the ABs will exploit it: defensive and set piece solidity is vital, and we learnt that the hard way in SA with Vickery. Gatland shows a reluctance to have too many attack-before-defence minded players in his team, and I'm not sure 13 is one of those positions for him.

Let's talk about the All Blacks.

No one hates you miaow. Its possible Gatland doesn't favour Joseph because he picks two giants in the Wales midfield but Id say most people think including myself that Joseph is the best 13 in B&I.

Interesting. Off the top of my head, Jared Payne and Jonathan Davies' physicality make them better defenders in the 13 channel. I'll definitely be watching out for Joseph's defence this 6Ns now though, particularly against Ireland (too much emotion involved to be overly-analytical when Wales are playing England).

Thanks Guns. He's definitely the most exciting ball in hand 13. Pace and trickery alone, he does seem like a player the All Blacks wouldn't enjoy defending against. Perhaps I am giving too much weighting to his poor performances in and around the RWC, but I didn't think he had the complete game yet, as his performances have been aligned to the form of the rest of the team: never seemed to perform well when England weren't, for instance, and I did think that Elliot Daly was being lined up to replace him as a more rounded player. As above, I'll be watching him closely now.

12. Henshaw
13. Joseph

Brute force and silky smooth.

Henshaw was magnificent against All Blacks in Autumn

anyhow the 6 Nations will throw everything up in the air again

Form now shouldn't be overlooked, but it's definitely won't be the key factor.

Gatland will probably have 15-20 names who if they're fit are going. Form and good 6 Nations/European showings might get you on the plane in one of the other 15-20 seats. After that, it comes down to how you tour.

If it were me, the guys I'd be telling to block out June and July now would be: Mako, Hartley, Nel, Itoje, AWJ, Vunipola, Faletau, Murray, Farrell, Henshaw, Joseph, L Williams, Hogg. Possibly a few more if I put further thought into it, and a couple more from other nations if I'd watched them more closely.

A lot of former lions in there, with a couple of new faces who I think have shown themselves to be outstanding. That's not to say that those players listed will all be starting or even pencilled in for that first test. But you want them either as strong options or at the very least benchmarks for other players to strive to better.

Again Joseph tore 2 third of his chest muscles in the WC so yes too much weighting towards that.

miaow wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Trying to be nice miaow and you go back to being like that.  You were aware Joseph tore his chest muscle in the first WC game I assume which was why I was saying judging his form from that is a little harsh.

Apologies. I'm willing to call it a truce, but I do seem to be have received a lot of flak from a number of posters in the last week having not been on here for about a month or so. It's hard to keep up with who hates me.

I agree injury was part of it, but then that's clearly the case for many players, Halfpenny included. For me, I still think Joseph needs to have a good 6Ns (Wales & Ireland particularly), but he could easily be the starting 13 for the Lions as his jinking and pace isn't common. If it were another coach, he'd clearly be the frontrunner- still is to many- but 13 is key to Gatland's defensive system, and I'm not sure about that aspect of his game outside of England (don't watch Bath). Take England's dominance of the last year away- which may or may not happen this 6Ns, but will happen against NZ- and you'll see his worth. Any weakness and the ABs will exploit it: defensive and set piece solidity is vital, and we learnt that the hard way in SA with Vickery. Gatland shows a reluctance to have too many attack-before-defence minded players in his team, and I'm not sure 13 is one of those positions for him.

Let's talk about the All Blacks.

I am really struggling to believe that someone has watched Joseph for Eng over the last year and doesn't think his defence is top class. Unless you're one of these people who think defence=big hits?

If anything, his defence has eclipsed his attack this year. I'm not trying to do down his attack but again, perhaps you've seen the scoresheet and assumed as he is regularly on there then he must be ripping teams to shreds. Actually he has sniffed a few of those tries out, intercepts, reacting to loose balls etc. Like I say, his attack has been good, but his defence has been something else. Argentina game was the best example.

Selection for Joseph, like anyone else, will depend largely on the 6 nations. The I say that is because that's what Gatland has already said, so whilst it's fun to put teams out there, you're pretty much wasting your time.

Perhaps. I would disagree that he's the best defensive 13 though.

This leads nicely on to the All Blacks midfield. Sonny Bill will be back, but will he play? Who plays for them at 12 and 13? These are the centres they had in their squads in 2016:

Ryan Crotty
Malakai Fekitoa
Charlie Ngatai (concussed during Wales tour, didn't appear again)
Seta Tamanivalu (dropped after Wales tour)
George Moala (more of a versatile 3/4 I believe?)
SBW (included in Rugby Championship squad but played and long term injured in Olympics Sevens)
Anton Leinert-Brown (selected for the AIs/end of year tour)

Ben Smith may be an option at 13. Dagg's certainly in very good form and could shift across to 15, but I don't see why you'd take Smith's attributes away from the counter attack in the back field.

I'm not going to pretend I know enough about domestic rugby in NZ and pick someone outside that list who may come into contention.

Crotty and Fekitoa seem potentially like they're an area the Lions could, if not eploit, gain some traction. Fekitoa's a very talented player as far as I can tell, but seems a bit hit and miss for an All Black (which means not very hit and miss at all, but enough for it to be noticeable). I'm not sure if SBW starts. If he does, what an opportunity for Henshaw/any other large centre to prove himself on the biggest stage by going toe to toe with him.

Be specific. Who has been the best defensive 13 over the last 12 months?

I was actually responding to 7.5 above you.

However, I've written more than enough on why English players' form during the last 12 months has to be taken with a caveat when talking about them as individual performers. I'm not going to repeat that and get criticised for writing essays. I've also provided two players I think are better defensive 13s, irrespective of form, but that's neither here nor there in terms of whether they're 'better' players, or more likely to start/play for the Lions.

As I also said, I'll be watching him closely during the 6Ns, particularly his defence.

I'm starting to have serious doubts over whether you've seen Joseph play over the past year, questioning his defensive qualities really is against the grain.

I suppose if good performances for a good team for the past 12 months have to be taken with a grain of salt, Wales should have some good representation.

Id say Jared Payne has been the best defensive 13 around.

GunsGermsV2 wrote:Id say Jared Payne has been the best defensive 13 around.

But we're talking about a Lions team; a Gats Lions team too. So Jared don't amount to a hill of beans, I reckon....

Hammersmith harrier wrote:I'm starting to have serious doubts over whether you've seen Joseph play over the past year, questioning his defensive qualities really is against the grain.

It's not just his defence. It's his defence specific to a Gatland style defence with the 13 defending in a specific manner. The defence coach is Andy Farrell after all, is it not? He has the speed to be a good defender, certainly, as it's an isolated position if you get it wrong, but is that accounting for positional frailties which are rarely exposed as England have been so dominant in the last year?

My primary doubt about him was whether he can replicate his form/prove his worth when a team isn't in a dominant position: he looked very good for England when he first broke through, then looked poor when England weren't so dominant. Now they're back to being relatively dominant again, and things are a bit more of an armchair ride out of the heat of expectation that was the RWC, and he's looking good again. That cannot be explained away in totality with his injury. That said, I felt like Eliot Daly was being lined up to replace him at 13 as he offered more, not least with the boot. Perhaps I'm wrong, I'll have another look when England will/should be tested away from home in their toughest games this 6Ns. That's the best guage for the Lions.

But if you're not willing to take me at my word, then here endeth the dicussion.

SecretFly wrote:

GunsGermsV2 wrote:Id say Jared Payne has been the best defensive 13 around.

But we're talking about a Lions team; a Gats Lions team too.  So Jared don't amount to a hill of beans, I reckon....

Not so sure. Gatland loves selecting Kiwis for the Lions.

He tore 2 thirds of his chest muscle. It wasn't attached...what don't you get about that?

Hammersmith harrier wrote:I'm starting to have serious doubts over whether you've seen Joseph play over the past year, questioning his defensive qualities really is against the grain.

My sentiments exactly.

Even if you think Payne has done a better job, how Josephs defence could be used as a reason NOT to select him is ridiculous.

GunsGermsV2 wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

GunsGermsV2 wrote:Id say Jared Payne has been the best defensive 13 around.

But we're talking about a Lions team; a Gats Lions team too.  So Jared don't amount to a hill of beans, I reckon....

Not so sure. Gatland loves selecting Kiwis for the Lions.

Let him at it, say I.

miaow wrote:
My primary doubt about him was whether he can replicate his form/prove his worth when a team isn't in a dominant position: he looked very good for England when he first broke through, then looked poor when England weren't so dominant. Now they're back to being relatively dominant again, and things are a bit more of an armchair ride out of the heat of expectation that was the RWC, and he's looking good again. That cannot be explained away in totality with his injury. That said, I felt like Eliot Daly was being lined up to replace him at 13 as he offered more, not least with the boot. Perhaps I'm wrong, I'll have another look when England will/should be tested away from home in their toughest games this 6Ns. That's the best guage for the Lions.

But if you're not willing to believe me, then here endeth the dicussion.

I wouldn't say he broke into a dominant team at all and Lancaster royally messed up during the WC so take his form there with a pinch of salt and performing badly can be explained away by injury and poor management. If anything Eddie Jones has shown that the team was poorly managed during the WC.

You talk as if the unbeaten year was plain sailing and are oddly ignoring current form because of it, JJ's defensive performances against Australia (2nd test in particular) and Argentina were superb, occasions when his team were up against it.

You're tying yourself in knots really, current form doesn't mean anything one minute then it means everything, seems like you've made assumptions with nothing to back them up.

miaow wrote:

Hammersmith harrier wrote:I'm starting to have serious doubts over whether you've seen Joseph play over the past year, questioning his defensive qualities really is against the grain.

It's not just his defence. It's his defence specific to a Gatland style defence with the 13 defending in a specific manner. The defence coach is Andy Farrell after all, is it not? He has the speed to be a good defender, certainly, as it's an isolated position if you get it wrong, but is that accounting for positional frailties which are rarely exposed as England have been so dominant in the last year?

My primary doubt about him was whether he can replicate his form/prove his worth when a team isn't in a dominant position: he looked very good for England when he first broke through, then looked poor when England weren't so dominant. Now they're back to being relatively dominant again, and things are a bit more of an armchair ride out of the heat of expectation that was the RWC, and he's looking good again. That cannot be explained away in totality with his injury. That said, I felt like Eliot Daly was being lined up to replace him at 13 as he offered more, not least with the boot. Perhaps I'm wrong, I'll have another look when England will/should be tested away from home in their toughest games this 6Ns. That's the best guage for the Lions.

But if you're not willing to take me at my word, then here endeth the dicussion.

Armchair ride?

You talk about Englands dominance as if Joseph hasn't been a huge part of that, especially his suffocating defence.

I actually think he sees Daly more as cover or at FB rather than a starter at Josephs expense. I think the move to drop him was to motivate Joseph, Jones loves that sh1t. That's another discussion though.

I'm going to be watching him during the 6Ns, particularly in the big games, as that's where he's underperformed before. That's the basis on which Gatland will be choosing his squad, and at this stage, pencilling in his Test team.

I've said my piece, and a lot of English fans are disagreeing, as expected. Having been asked to keep the length of my replies down, I'm at a loss as to how I can expand on what I've already said. I don't see how any of your protestations address my specific points about how he appears unsuited to 'Warrenball', if you want to call it that. That in no way means he's not going to start against the All Blacks, but at this stage, he's not as much of a dead cert as a lot of (primarily English) people believe him to be. I don't see the harm in that. Sometimes an outside perspective can be helpful: for instance, he's not the best defensive 13 in the Home Nations, but instead of insulting you about not watching rugby, I offered reasoned alternatives. Why isn't the same attitude extended to me?

Let's move on. Anyone, at all, anywhere, want to discuss the All Blacks midfield?

Why does Gatland need do much time off? He's got the tactics sorted and he's placing an emphasis on 6Ns for selection. Why the need to get paid for nothing in the meantime?

miaow just don't feel like you are giving Joseph credit. He's being playing well. He's been showing a poacher's instinct and he's being defending well.

Who would you pick at 13 then?

No 7&1/2 wrote:Why does Gatland need do much time off? He's got the tactics sorted and he's placing an emphasis on 6Ns for selection. Why the need to get paid for nothing in the meantime?

It's called a Promotion, 7&1/2. Less (real) work, more adulation.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Why does Gatland need do much time off? He's got the tactics sorted and he's placing an emphasis on 6Ns for selection. Why the need to get paid for nothing in the meantime?

I heard it was access? I was under the impression he'd be talking to players and coaches during the Six Nations, and it would be a conflict if the sitting Welsh coach was having chats with English, Irish and Scottish players.

Alternatives aside, Miaow, you actually said that his defence might not be good enough for Gatland. If this is what you think of Joseph (regardless of whether or not you think there is a better alternative) then I deduce that you have not actually watched Joseph play over the last 12 months.

robbo277 wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Why does Gatland need do much time off? He's got the tactics sorted and he's placing an emphasis on 6Ns for selection. Why the need to get paid for nothing in the meantime?

I heard it was access? I was under the impression he'd be talking to players and coaches during the Six Nations, and it would be a conflict if the sitting Welsh coach was having chats with English, Irish and Scottish players.

I wouldn't mind him having the season off, but I'm pretty sure the WRU are still paying him.

cascough wrote:Alternatives aside, Miaow, you actually said that his defence might not be good enough for Gatland. If this is what you think of Joseph (regardless of whether or not you think there is a better alternative) then I deduce that you have not actually watched Joseph play over the last 12 months.

Get over yourself

Good to see that England's rise to the top is restoring the collective English rugby ego back to its former over inflated self. It makes my tickets for the Ireland v England game this year even more valuable a commodity and interesting a prospect.

GunsGermsV2 wrote:Good to see that England's rise to the top is restoring the collective English rugby ego back to its former over inflated self. It makes my tickets for the Ireland v England game this year even more valuable a commodity and interesting a prospect.

It's just a shame it has to take place in your poky little stadium. It's hardly big enough to swing a cat in there. I bet the champagne is warm too.

Cyril wrote:

GunsGermsV2 wrote:Good to see that England's rise to the top is restoring the collective English rugby ego back to its former over inflated self. It makes my tickets for the Ireland v England game this year even more valuable a commodity and interesting a prospect.

It's just a shame it has to take place in your poky little stadium. It's hardly big enough to swing a cat in there. I bet the champagne is warm too.

Please respect the kicker.

miaow wrote:

cascough wrote:Alternatives aside, Miaow, you actually said that his defence might not be good enough for Gatland. If this is what you think of Joseph (regardless of whether or not you think there is a better alternative) then I deduce that you have not actually watched Joseph play over the last 12 months.

Get over yourself

Ahhh the foundation of mature debate.

Cyril wrote:

GunsGermsV2 wrote:Good to see that England's rise to the top is restoring the collective English rugby ego back to its former over inflated self. It makes my tickets for the Ireland v England game this year even more valuable a commodity and interesting a prospect.

It's just a shame it has to take place in your poky little stadium. It's hardly big enough to swing a cat in there. I bet the champagne is warm too.

Not as much of a dump as Twickers though. Takes forever to get in and out of that stadium.

The English wont be needing any champagne in Lansdowne anyway.

So. I was at the Telegraph interview with Gats and Geech last week, courtesy of a mate's boss dropping out at the last minute.

I gained a lot of respect for Gats - he came across as a real rugby bloke and more flexible than I had thought. Geech also clearly respects him, so that counts for a lot.

Some interesting points:
- Most important point: it's all up in the air at this stage because the 6N could change everything
- Gats recognises that the approach in NZ will need to be very different from the one in Oz
- In 2013, the Welsh lads were in pole position at this point. Now, it's mainly England and some Ireland (can't remember the exact words, but the implication was more England than Ireland)
- He was genuinely disappointed that, despite making offers to two of them, no Scotland coach was part of the set up. They were both worried that it means there will be no-one who knows the Scotland players to manage them and speak up for them
- There was a lot of discussion around character. Key themes were resilience, the kind of player who can take a blow and pick themselves up, and the people who will work hard off the field to support the test team even if not picked. They said that quite often the last 7 or 8 picks will come down to who they think will do the best job of that
- Geech genuinely thinks the Lions can nick the first test and after that "who knows what can happen?"
- A great Lions snippet from the past: Paul O'Connell apparently demanded of his fellow Lions "Let's be the best at everything that doesn't need talent" - i.e. making sure they were fastest at getting up after a tackle, chasing kicks etc

Overall, the sense was of a more considered approach for a bigger challenge. Be interesting to see how that plays out.

That's very interesting Poorfour. As a Welsh fan even I'm not his biggest fan, but I do think he's often wrongly portrayed in the media (or 'over-villainised' if that's even a term!), especially by national media(s) that hold some sort of grudge against him. It's then easy to create a lot of false info and portray someone in the wrong way to fit a preconceived agenda or one that helps with the readership.

Poorfour wrote:
- A great Lions snippet from the past: Paul O'Connell apparently demanded of his fellow Lions "Let's be the best at everything that doesn't need talent" - i.e. making sure they were fastest at getting up after a tackle, chasing kicks etc

Mike Philips must have missed that speech. Laziest Lion I have ever seen.

Poorfour wrote:
- He was genuinely disappointed that, despite making offers to two of them, no Scotland coach was part of the set up. They were both worried that it means there will be no-one who knows the Scotland players to manage them and speak up for them

What horseschidt.  He's there.  Gatland is Lions coach.  That's his role to stand up for Scottish players worth standing up for.  He'll be watching all the 6N games?  

The other points - fine.  That bloody specific point;  Crap and offensive - almost hinting that Scottish coaches who cold shouldered his approaches will now be to blame for the token Scottish doctor again.

SecretFly wrote:

Poorfour wrote:
- He was genuinely disappointed that, despite making offers to two of them, no Scotland coach was part of the set up. They were both worried that it means there will be no-one who knows the Scotland players to manage them and speak up for them

What horseschidt.  He's there.  Gatland is Lions coach.  That's his role to stand up for Scottish players worth standing up for.  He'll be watching all the 6N games?  

The other points - fine.  That bloody specific point.  Crap and offensive - almost hinting that Scottish coaches who cold shouldered his approaches will now be to blame for the token Scottish doctor again.

Cheers Fly.

I've said before that he's responsible for observing and subsequently picking the best players....regardless where they're from.

Plus.....Dr Robson has also been shunned!

I'm not a fan of Gatland but you just have to watch the Lions DVDs to see how much he want's to win.

Poorfour wrote:
- A great Lions snippet from the past: Paul O'Connell apparently demanded of his fellow Lions "Let's be the best at everything that doesn't need talent" - i.e. making sure they were fastest at getting up after a tackle, chasing kicks etc

Ah, the Munster Manifesto

Poorfour wrote:
- Geech genuinely thinks the Lions can nick the first test and after that "who knows what can happen?"

Awful line. If you're out there to "nick" a test, don't bother. Go out there thinking you're equal, thinking you can win the series, or don't go at all.

robbo277 wrote:

Poorfour wrote:
- Geech genuinely thinks the Lions can nick the first test and after that "who knows what can happen?"

Awful line. If you're out there to "nick" a test, don't bother. Go out there thinking you're equal, thinking you can win the series, or don't go at all.

Agree. Ireland beat them by themselves, the Lions get 4 countries. If we don't beat them it's through poor coaching and selection.

SecretFly wrote:

Poorfour wrote:
- He was genuinely disappointed that, despite making offers to two of them, no Scotland coach was part of the set up. They were both worried that it means there will be no-one who knows the Scotland players to manage them and speak up for them

What horseschidt.  He's there.  Gatland is Lions coach.  That's his role to stand up for Scottish players worth standing up for.  He'll be watching all the 6N games?  

The other points - fine.  That bloody specific point;  Crap and offensive - almost hinting that Scottish coaches who cold shouldered his approaches will now be to blame for the token Scottish doctor again.

No. You are wrong on that. It is neither crap nor offensive.

Maybe I didn't explain it properly but it was said very much in the spirit of inclusion. Regardless of how much time Gatland spends watching players and talking to the coaches, there is no way he can know any (non-Welsh) players as well as members of their national coaching squads. National coaches spend nearly 20 weeks per year with their squads (4 AIs, 7 weeks of 6N, 3 tour games plus 1-2 weeks before each series).

Farrell will have spent 4 campaigns with the Irish players, Borthwick the same with the English players (and Farrell will have spent much longer with many of them). Howley has spent longer than anyone bar Gats with the Welsh players. Even if Gatland spent all the time between now and the tour shuttling between training in Glasgow and Edinburgh there is no way he could replicate that level of exposure.

Who on tour will know the Scots in anything like as much depth? Who will know when they need a bit of an arm round them, or a kick up the backside? Who will know whether that poor game is a blip in form, something that can be fixed with specific coaching or a deeper malaise?

To be clear, he wasn't talking about selection, he was talking about getting the most out of players on the tour itself. And it was said in a tone of genuine regret that no coaches had accepted, and genuine concern for the players themselves.

If anything was offensive, it was your over-reaction to the point. This isn't us arguing over what a journo may or may not have made up and written down. I was doing my best to report an interesting conversation I was present at and to share what I took away for people on this board. If there's a point you think you don't like, at least have the common decency to ask me what it meant (given, y'know, I was there, about 10 feet from him) or express your concerns civilly rather than leap straight to an (incorrect) conclusion and mouth off with a stream of invective.

Poorfour good post. Scotland need a representative to fight their corner. Someone who will champion the likes of J.Gray and Hogg.

Let's say if it's a 50-50 call between Itoje and J.Gray with A.Farrell and Borthwick having votes who do you think they would be more likely to pick? The player they know well or the one they don't?

beshocked wrote:Poorfour good post. Scotland need a representative to fight their corner. Someone who will champion the likes of J.Gray and Hogg.

Let's say if it's a 50-50 call between Itoje and J.Gray with A.Farrell and Borthwick having votes who do you think they would be more likely to pick? The player they know well or the one they don't?

Exactly the point. Thank you beshocked. From a purely parochial point of view, having Faz and Borthwick in the coaching team improves the odds a little for English players (especially Sarries...) or at least balances Gats and Howley, but in the spirit of the Lions it's not great to have that imbalance against the Scots.

Ultimately - Scotland need to perform well at the 6 nations and win the whole thing.

Take the choice away from 50/50 and make it impossible not to pick them

Unfortunately we have not done that in the past, so need to 'get on it'

It is in our hands

Riskysports the issue is that in some cases you won't be able to get away from 50/50. Also it's obviously how well players work together.

The Lions obviously don't have long together to gel as an unit hence why established partnerships are even more important.

If you know how your team mates operate it makes it much easier to react in the right way to the benefit of the team.

Poorfour wrote:

If anything was offensive, it was your over-reaction to the point. This isn't us arguing over what a journo may or may not have made up and written down. I was doing my best to report an interesting conversation I was present at and to share what I took away for people on this board. If there's a point you think you don't like, at least have the common decency to ask me what it meant (given, y'know, I was there, about 10 feet from him) or express your concerns civilly rather than leap straight to an (incorrect) conclusion and mouth off with a stream of invective.

Oh how I know how offensive I am to many on these pages. Tell me something new.

But I tend to also stick to the points I make. I think it a bullschidt excuse that tries to drop some sprinkling of 'disloyalty' down the channel of the coaches that turned Gatland down. And the Lions and the idea of 'loyalty' to it - yeah, it gets the juices going. Gatland is the man he is and he knows how to fist fight. He loves a skirmish. He's jabbing. He's jabbing. That's what I believe from what you said initially and what you elaborated on.

I'll choose my own methods of delivery, thanks. I seldom get directly and personally offensive with anyone here and that's plenty good enough for my conscience.

SecretFly wrote:

Poorfour wrote:

If anything was offensive, it was your over-reaction to the point. This isn't us arguing over what a journo may or may not have made up and written down. I was doing my best to report an interesting conversation I was present at and to share what I took away for people on this board. If there's a point you think you don't like, at least have the common decency to ask me what it meant (given, y'know, I was there, about 10 feet from him) or express your concerns civilly rather than leap straight to an (incorrect) conclusion and mouth off with a stream of invective.

Oh how I know how offensive I am to many on these pages.  Tell me something new.

But I tend to also stick to the points I make.  I think it a bullschidt excuse that tries to drop some sprinkling of 'disloyalty' down the channel of the coaches that turned Gatland down.  And the Lions and the idea of 'loyalty' to it - yeah, it gets the juices going.  Gatland is the man he is and he knows how to fist fight.  He loves a skirmish.  He's jabbing.  He's jabbing.  That's what I believe from what you said initially and what you elaborated on.

I'll choose my own methods of delivery, thanks.  I seldom get directly and personally offensive with anyone here and that's plenty good enough for my conscience.

You're welcome, posters over 35.