Lions 2017 - Name your team, captain and whatever else you want to harp on about

First topic message reminder :

My wishlist:

I hope AWJ is named captain to keep the Irish and English lads in check.
I hope Robshaw gets picked, he deserves to tour at least once at this point.
I hope the refereeing is strictly on a level playing field.
I hope NZ are made accountable for any incidents where they break anyone's collarbone and put them out of the game for 13 months.
The Lions to be at the very least competitive and win one of the first two tests.
I'd like to see Tadhg Furlong get a run out.
Would like to see an uncapped player in the squad.
No charity caps, Tom court, Shane Williams etc.
I hope Gatland comes up with a much more interesting and variable game plan than on the last Lions tour.
Dylan Hartley calls a ref the C word on the last day of the six nations and misses the tour.

GunsGermsV2 wrote:

Cyril wrote:

GunsGermsV2 wrote:Good to see that England's rise to the top is restoring the collective English rugby ego back to its former over inflated self. It makes my tickets for the Ireland v England game this year even more valuable a commodity and interesting a prospect.

It's just a shame it has to take place in your poky little stadium. It's hardly big enough to swing a cat in there. I bet the champagne is warm too.

Not as much of a dump as Twickers though. Takes forever to get in and out of that stadium.

The English wont be needing any champagne in Lansdowne anyway.

HQ is the home of rugby. Your stadium isn't even finished yet (I'm assuming your lot are planning to increase the capacity to a decent size at some point?).

Loving the Irish attitude this year. Best side in the world (ever?)

Poorfour wrote:

beshocked wrote:Poorfour good post. Scotland need a representative to fight their corner. Someone who will champion the likes of J.Gray and Hogg.

Let's say if it's a 50-50 call between Itoje and J.Gray with A.Farrell and Borthwick having votes who do you think they would be more likely to pick? The player they know well or the one they don't?

Exactly the point. Thank you beshocked. From a purely parochial point of view, having Faz and Borthwick in the coaching team improves the odds a little for English players (especially Sarries...) or at least balances Gats and Howley, but in the spirit of the Lions it's not great to have that imbalance against the Scots.

I don't think it matters. It isn't about nice and equal representation and making sure everyone feels warm and cosy inside at the thought of 4 nations coming together, it's about picking the best players to win, regardless of where they are from.

Scotland are the worst side in 6 nations history so I wouldn't expect them to be contributing many players to the touring party, never mind the test team. From that point of view not having someone there to fight for a minority probably won't have much of an impact. If Scotland turn it on this 6N then it might become more of an issue.

cascough wrote:

Poorfour wrote:

beshocked wrote:Poorfour good post. Scotland need a representative to fight their corner. Someone who will champion the likes of J.Gray and Hogg.

Let's say if it's a 50-50 call between Itoje and J.Gray with A.Farrell and Borthwick having votes who do you think they would be more likely to pick? The player they know well or the one they don't?

Exactly the point. Thank you beshocked. From a purely parochial point of view, having Faz and Borthwick in the coaching team improves the odds a little for English players (especially Sarries...) or at least balances Gats and Howley, but in the spirit of the Lions it's not great to have that imbalance against the Scots.

I don't think it matters. It isn't about nice and equal representation and making sure everyone feels warm and cosy inside at the thought of 4 nations coming together, it's about picking the best players to win, regardless of where they are from.

Scotland are the worst side in 6 nations history so I wouldn't expect them to be contributing many players to the touring party, never mind the test team. From that point of view not having someone there to fight for a minority probably won't have much of an impact. If Scotland turn it on this 6N then it might become more of an issue.

This bit in bold is the biggest issue though.  Who are the best players?  It will be vary from coach to coach, and poster to poster (on here).  It's why we have years and years of arguments on here, and why no matter what Gatland will get slated by the vast majority because who he picks (his prerogative after all) will not match what posters think are the best players.  No matter what people think about Gatland he will not deliberately pick who he thinks are the worst players.  He'll pick who he thinks are best, based on all sorts of criteria.  Surely we just have to let him get on with that, just as we let Schmidt decide who he picks for Ireland, Cotter decide who he picks for Scotland, Baxter for Exeter, etc.

The best players will vary in peoples minds of course, but surely even the most passionate of Scotland supporters expects there to be less Scotland players in the party than any other Nation. That would certainly tally with the names (or lack thereof) we see being put forward on here.

For that reason I can't see the lack of a Scottish voice being an issue.

As an England fan, if Ireland win the Grand Slam, given the autumn they had I don't care if he picks 15 Irishmen for that first test, they will blatantly have the record to justify that selection, and I want to win.

Gatland could win this series with a 3 nil whitewash, and there would still be people on here, and elsewhere saying how wrong he was to select such and such. It's just they way of the world.

I don't agree with the last point case, possibly a little more if the 6Ns were a home and away tournament.

You're probably right, people just want their favorites in.

cascough wrote:You're probably right, people just want their favorites in.

or they want their players to have nothing to do with it whatsoever.

cascough wrote:The best players will vary in peoples minds of course, but surely even the most passionate of Scotland supporters expects there to be less Scotland players in the party than any other Nation. That would certainly tally with the names (or lack thereof) we see being put forward on here.

For that reason I can't see the lack of a Scottish voice being an issue.

As an England fan, if Ireland win the Grand Slam, given the autumn they had I don't care if he picks 15 Irishmen for that first test, they will blatantly have the record to justify that selection, and I want to win.

Completely agree.

The Irish don't tend to travel well on a Lions tour though.

Are they not good at mixing with the other players or is it something else?

O'Connell is a prime example of this (even though he did say that the Lions was much more important than Ireland or Munster).

It's an odd one.

In 2009 Ireland won a slam but there were more Welsh players selected for the Lions. In 05 Wales won a slam but there were more English players selected.

Maybe thats where we are going wrong?

GunsGermsV2 wrote:In 2009 Ireland won a slam but there were more Welsh players selected for the Lions. In 05 Wales won a slam but there were more English players selected.

Maybe thats where we are going wrong?

In 2013 Wales won the 6 nations and lots of Welsh were selected for the Lions, and the Lions then won the series. Back on track!

Cyril wrote:The Irish don't tend to travel well on a Lions tour though.

Are they not good at mixing with the other players or is it something else?

O'Connell is a prime example of this (even though he did say that the Lions was much more important than Ireland or Munster).

It's an odd one.

Meanwhile the golden generation of English Lions in '05 travelled really well?

Some of the best Lions of all time were Irish.

Whats your beef with O'Connell? He was a good tourist.

Griff wrote:

GunsGermsV2 wrote:In 2009 Ireland won a slam but there were more Welsh players selected for the Lions. In 05 Wales won a slam but there were more English players selected.

Maybe thats where we are going wrong?

In 2013 Wales won the 6 nations and lots of Welsh were selected for the Lions, and the Lions then won the series.  Back on track!  

True, Australia were really crap though.

The Welsh lads were very good though. Particularly Lydiate and AWJ.

GunsGermsV2 wrote:

Griff wrote:

GunsGermsV2 wrote:In 2009 Ireland won a slam but there were more Welsh players selected for the Lions. In 05 Wales won a slam but there were more English players selected.

Maybe thats where we are going wrong?

In 2013 Wales won the 6 nations and lots of Welsh were selected for the Lions, and the Lions then won the series.  Back on track!  

True, Australia were really crap though.

Only a matter of time before someone wheeled that one out.

LordDowlais wrote:Gatland could win this series with a 3 nil whitewash, and there would still be people on here, and elsewhere saying how wrong he was to select such and such. It's just they way of the world.

I very much doubt that.

Griff wrote:

GunsGermsV2 wrote:

Griff wrote:

GunsGermsV2 wrote:In 2009 Ireland won a slam but there were more Welsh players selected for the Lions. In 05 Wales won a slam but there were more English players selected.

Maybe thats where we are going wrong?

In 2013 Wales won the 6 nations and lots of Welsh were selected for the Lions, and the Lions then won the series.  Back on track!  

True, Australia were really crap though.

Only a matter of time before someone wheeled that one out.

I think Gatland made very hard work of that series. In all fairness he tends to struggle a lot against SH sides.

As I said though the Welsh lads were very good.

cascough wrote:Alternatives aside, Miaow, you actually said that his defence might not be good enough for Gatland. If this is what you think of Joseph (regardless of whether or not you think there is a better alternative) then I deduce that you have not actually watched Joseph play over the last 12 months.

Without wanting to attack Miaow (as I haven't time to read one of his replies ) you do have a point. JJ has been a little quiet on the attacking front this last 12 month by his normal outstanding standards. But, what he has done, has been a defensive rock. He's really showed what a complete 13 he is, I honestly can't think of player at outside centre with such a complete game at the minute.

Players like Fekitoa and Kurindrani make bigger hits but none are defensively sound and there's certainly not a better performing 13 in the NH currently. Payne is a very strong defensive 13 but doesn't offer anywhere near the amount in offensive as JJ. Henshaw would be an interesting comparison as he's a very good player, but I see him as the ideal 12 option alongside JJ.

If somebody thinks JJ is a weakness defensively, I can only fathom that they've not seen him play that much over the last 12 months without wanting to be too harsh.

GunsGermsV2 wrote:

Cyril wrote:The Irish don't tend to travel well on a Lions tour though.

Are they not good at mixing with the other players or is it something else?

O'Connell is a prime example of this (even though he did say that the Lions was much more important than Ireland or Munster).

It's an odd one.

Meanwhile the golden generation of English Lions in '05 travelled really well?

Some of the best Lions of all time were Irish.

Whats your beef with O'Connell? He was a good tourist.

He's a whinger with bad gums

I don't think Ireland really buy into the Lions ethos.

What is the Lions ethos? It seems to have changed a lot recently.

GunsGermsV2 wrote:What is the Lions ethos? It seems to have changed a lot recently.

It's a tricky one to pin down. I'd say that both O'Connell and O'Driscoll considered themselves a bit too special for the Lions.

Cyril wrote:

GunsGermsV2 wrote:What is the Lions ethos? It seems to have changed a lot recently.

It's a tricky one to pin down. I'd say that both O'Connell and O'Driscoll considered themselves a bit too special for the Lions.

Haha. Not sure what the beef with O'Connell was in particular. He was a pretty good captain. Both players however had their captaincies cut short so its hard to judge them as captains.

In fairness they were a level above most Lions players of the last few tours especially the English players who sadly haven't contributed a world class player in a long time.

Getting selected for 4 tours (O'Driscoll) and 3 tours (O'Connell) is a bit special both also having one tour as captain.

We're getting there. Patience.

Cyril wrote:

GunsGermsV2 wrote:What is the Lions ethos? It seems to have changed a lot recently.

It's a tricky one to pin down. I'd say that both O'Connell and O'Driscoll considered themselves a bit too special for the Lions.

I'd certainly hope so, Cyril.

Maybe we'll hear a bit more about in one of their next 10 autobiographies each. Famous rugby players always need more than one book to tell everything

The Lions ethos btw is bum slapping your pal with a towel around a pool after shooting some elephant types in the morning just before the cold fraternity shower to help the bonding sessions.

SecretFly wrote:The Lions ethos btw is bum slapping your pal with a towel around a pool after shooting some elephant types in the morning just before the cold fraternity shower to help the bonding sessions.

It is if you're Andy Powell or Simon Zebo and picked to add a bit of 'flavour' to the camp.

GunsGermsV2 wrote:

Cyril wrote:

GunsGermsV2 wrote:What is the Lions ethos? It seems to have changed a lot recently.

It's a tricky one to pin down. I'd say that both O'Connell and O'Driscoll considered themselves a bit too special for the Lions.

Haha. Not sure what the beef with O'Connell was in particular. He was a pretty good captain. Both players however had their captaincies cut short so its hard to judge them as captains.

In fairness they were a level above most Lions players of the last few tours especially the English players who sadly haven't contributed a world class player in a long time.

Getting selected for 4 tours (O'Driscoll) and 3 tours (O'Connell) is a bit special both also having one tour as captain.

I'm not sure O'Connell was World Class. O'Driscoll yes (for a time).

England provided Flutey in 2009. What more do you want?

Cyril wrote:

GunsGermsV2 wrote:What is the Lions ethos? It seems to have changed a lot recently.

It's a tricky one to pin down. I'd say that both O'Connell and O'Driscoll considered themselves a bit too special for the Lions.

Fair comment BOD couldnt even be bothered to play the last game.

England provided a lot of flops for the last four tours. Its about time they provided some outstanding players. Maybe Itoje?

Corbisiero was world class in 2013, his performances in tests 1 and 2 were huge.

Hammersmith harrier wrote:Corbisiero was world class in 2013, his performances in tests 1 and 2 were huge.

Hard to say when he was scrummaging against one of the weaker front rows in word rugby.

Who from Ireland played well in 2013?

Surely Earls (2009) and Best (2013) have provided the two worst Lions performance in the professional era?

Cyril wrote:Who from Ireland played well in 2013?

Conor Murray and Sexton.

GunsGermsV2 wrote:

Cyril wrote:Who from Ireland played well in 2013?

Conor Murray and Sexton.

They were ok, but nothing special.

I see Murray as being similar to Phillips (ie suits Gatlandball) and Sexton was decent but already on the wane.

GunsGermsV2 wrote:

Hammersmith harrier wrote:Corbisiero was world class in 2013, his performances in tests 1 and 2 were huge.

Hard to say when he was scrummaging against one of the weaker front rows in word rugby.

Did Tom Court ever recover from that manshaming in 2012?

Hammersmith harrier wrote:Corbisiero was world class in 2013, his performances in tests 1 and 2 were huge.

His scrum domination was non-existent in the second test.

Mind you, having said that, I don't remember him coming off second best either.

cascough wrote:

Hammersmith harrier wrote:Corbisiero was world class in 2013, his performances in tests 1 and 2 were huge.

His scrum domination was non-existent in the second test.

I meant test 3, he was sorely missed in the 2nd test.

Cyril wrote:Who from Ireland played well in 2013?

Surely Earls (2009) and Best (2013) have provided the two worst Lions performance in the professional era?

Ronan O'Gara...?

Cyril wrote:

SecretFly wrote:The Lions ethos btw is bum slapping your pal with a towel around a pool after shooting some elephant types in the morning just before the cold fraternity shower to help the bonding sessions.

It is if you're Andy Powell or Simon Zebo and picked to add a bit of 'flavour' to the camp.

No, no, that is official Dogma. You don't read your Lions mandatory reading manuals, Cyril. I might have to inform on you and get you transported to the USA as punishment for blatant non-loyalty and treasonous lack of Lions folklore knowledge.

GunsGermsV2 wrote:

Meanwhile the golden generation of English Lions in '05 travelled really well?

Geech: "What Clive did in 2005 had to be tried, mainly because we now know never to do it that way ever again"

I think he put it more elegantly than that, but the sentiment from both Gats and Geech was very clear. They visibly shuddered at mention of the 2005 tour and could barely talk about it in civil terms.

I think everyone agrees that it wasn't a great idea.

Why shudder? It has provided perhaps one of the most talked about/laughed about/perfect Lions propaganda episodes of the last decade?

Gats and Geech should rejoice! Pure theatre. Lions Tour classic.

O'Connell not world class? I suppose it depends on your definition, but if it means being one of the best in the world at your position, surely he was? It used to feel as though if Ireland came to Cardiff with him and O'Gara, they could pretty much pick 13 other blokes at random and have a good chance of winning.

Winzer wrote:O'Connell not world class?  I suppose it depends on your definition, but if it means being one of the best in the world at your position, surely he was?  It used to feel as though if Ireland came to Cardiff with him and O'Gara, they could pretty much pick 13 other blokes at random and have a good chance of winning.

Never mind Cyril - he's just enjoying himself.

He actually has a large poster of Paulie overlooking his bed. He's got a Martin Johnson mat in the same room but he doesn't ever talk as much about it.

miaow wrote:

Cyril wrote:Who from Ireland played well in 2013?

Surely Earls (2009) and Best (2013) have provided the two worst Lions performance in the professional era?

Ronan O'Gara...?

O'Gara was concussed when the took Steyn out in the air. its was the Lions management's stupidity for bandaging up his head and leaving him on. Otherwise a decent tourist albeit never really a test starter.

England have dominated in the Lions howlers stakes in the pro era:

2013

Matt Stevens bizarre selection
Tom Croft - not rated outside England.

2009

All the English selections were weak especially Flutey and Vickery. Vickery lost the Lions that series after giving away about 20 penalties at the scrum in the first test.

2005

Too many old donkeys to choose from. Olly Smith and Balshaw deserve special mentions for being completely useless.

I can see the 6 Nations must be starting soon haha

Yeah, O'Gara wasn't out of his depth and a deserved tourist of course, but that one incident was devastating and unfortunately is what he will be remembered for in a Lions shirt.

Couldn't remember who Olly Smith was. Had to look him up on google and it came up with the wine expert who often appears on BBC cooking shows. Seems Clive just gave up and started picking any tubby Englishman with a public school education...

Cyril wrote:

GunsGermsV2 wrote:

Cyril wrote:Who from Ireland played well in 2013?

Conor Murray and Sexton.

They were ok, but nothing special.

I see Murray as being similar to Phillips (ie suits Gatlandball) and Sexton was decent but already on the wane.

Funny enough, Murray didn't suit Gatland as he would have had him starting in 2013 if he did suit him.

That's harsh on Vickery. The penalties should have been against Mtwarira, who was very clearly boring in. Vickery's inability to adapt was a part of it, but it was a pretty poor show by the ref.

The really bad English performances were Woodward's superannuated forwards and a not properly fit Wilkinson in 2005

Hammersmith harrier wrote:

GunsGermsV2 wrote:

Hammersmith harrier wrote:Corbisiero was world class in 2013, his performances in tests 1 and 2 were huge.

Hard to say when he was scrummaging against one of the weaker front rows in word rugby.

Did Tom Court ever recover from that manshaming in 2012?

Yes Gatland picked him for the Lions the following year - not any sort of recommendation though as it was only Australia and all their props are made out of marshmallow.