Lions 2017 - Name your team, captain and whatever else you want to harp on about

First topic message reminder :

My wishlist:

I hope AWJ is named captain to keep the Irish and English lads in check.
I hope Robshaw gets picked, he deserves to tour at least once at this point.
I hope the refereeing is strictly on a level playing field.
I hope NZ are made accountable for any incidents where they break anyone's collarbone and put them out of the game for 13 months.
The Lions to be at the very least competitive and win one of the first two tests.
I'd like to see Tadhg Furlong get a run out.
Would like to see an uncapped player in the squad.
No charity caps, Tom court, Shane Williams etc.
I hope Gatland comes up with a much more interesting and variable game plan than on the last Lions tour.
Dylan Hartley calls a ref the C word on the last day of the six nations and misses the tour.

wayne wrote:

Scottrf wrote:You don't get points for winning at half time...

That was why he was taken off.

The big teams have moved on from seeing the bench or being subbed as an insult.

Hammersmith harrier wrote:

wayne wrote:

Hammersmith harrier wrote:

wayne wrote:

majesticimperialman wrote:Just curios after yesterdays game does every ( most) folks on here still think AWJ will be captain for the Lions?

Yes, at least he wasn't subbed at just over half way through the match, outplayed by his opposite number, and shown up by his replacement.

Not sure how Hartley was outplayed to be honest when the line out and scrum were silky smooth nor is that the making of a captain, making poor decisions like AWJ did is going to be more pivotal.

If everything was silky smooth, why was he subbed? Don't put it down as what they usually do.

It's what Jones does almost every game so that is the reason, remind me how many times the English set piece was challenged yesterday?

If that was the case, it makes him (Jones) no better than our clown (Howley)

Scottrf wrote:

wayne wrote:

Scottrf wrote:You don't get points for winning at half time...

That was why he was taken off.

The big teams have moved on from seeing the bench or being subbed as an insult.

See my answer to HH above

wayne wrote:

Hammersmith harrier wrote:

wayne wrote:

Hammersmith harrier wrote:

wayne wrote:

majesticimperialman wrote:Just curios after yesterdays game does every ( most) folks on here still think AWJ will be captain for the Lions?

Yes, at least he wasn't subbed at just over half way through the match, outplayed by his opposite number, and shown up by his replacement.

Not sure how Hartley was outplayed to be honest when the line out and scrum were silky smooth nor is that the making of a captain, making poor decisions like AWJ did is going to be more pivotal.

If everything was silky smooth, why was he subbed? Don't put it down as what they usually do.

It's what Jones does almost every game so that is the reason, remind me how many times the English set piece was challenged yesterday?

If that was the case, it makes him (Jones) no better than our clown (Howley)

Eddie Jones- 15/15, what a clown.

The English bench turned the tide of the game against Wales. Thats the impact of fresh legs and strong replacements in the second half. Nothing clownish in that.

Scottrf wrote:

wayne wrote:

majesticimperialman wrote:Just curios after yesterdays game does every ( most) folks on here still think AWJ will be captain for the Lions?

Yes, at least he wasn't subbed at just over half way through the match, outplayed by his opposite number, and shown up by his replacement.

Hartley is at least a winner as a captain at international level. Not sure we need a specialist in failure.

Hartley looks like a player not really in game shape. Which makes sense considering the number of matches he played this season. Jones clearly prefers him as captain or he wouldn't allow him to play himself back into shape in these games.

The upcoming game against Italy provides an interesting conundrum: Should Hartley continue to play and use the game to work himself into game shape? Or should George get the start he appears to deserve? Hartley played fine in the autumn, also lacking some game shape, so there is no reason he can't get back to that level. And than, given some good fortune, really get back to top game shape.

catchweight wrote:The English bench turned the tide of the game against Wales. Thats the impact of fresh legs and strong replacements in the second half. Nothing clownish in that.

Most of the England replacements would have made part of a better starting xv. Understandably Haskell still returning to fitness hence being a bench player but Care and George just look much better players than their starting counterparts.

Similarly, although I don't think Cole or Marler had bad games I think Mullan and Sinkler looked very useful.

Hi

wayne wrote:

majesticimperialman wrote:Just curios after yesterdays game does every ( most) folks on here still think AWJ will be captain for the Lions?

Yes, at least he wasn't subbed at just over half way through the match, outplayed by his opposite number, and shown up by his replacement.

wayne, you are right he was not sunbed at half time. But, But Hartley did not make the mistake that AWJ did.

AWJ cost Wales the game by turning down 2 shots at goal which would have given Wales 6 point clearance of England. but on both times it FAILED.

1 when they took a line out in Englands 22.

2 When they opted for the scrum. and England won a p-enalty.

maestegmafia wrote:

catchweight wrote:The English bench turned the tide of the game against Wales. Thats the impact of fresh legs and strong replacements in the second half. Nothing clownish in that.

Most of the England replacements would have made part of a better starting xv. Understandably Haskell still returning to fitness hence being a bench player but Care and George just look much better players than their starting counterparts.

Similarly, although I don't think Cole or Marler had bad games I think Mullan and Sinkler looked very useful.

Hi

There is little to choose between them in my book. In the modern game, the bench is hugely important. Players who are playing well can still be subbed off because they start to tire and become less effective in a high intensity test match. The players coming on generally have the advantage of coming on against a softened up team.

I think Care and George are better impact players off the bench myself. They are better suited to coming on against tiring opposition.

Scottrf wrote:

wayne wrote:

majesticimperialman wrote:Just curios after yesterdays game does every ( most) folks on here still think AWJ will be captain for the Lions?

Yes, at least he wasn't subbed at just over half way through the match, outplayed by his opposite number, and shown up by his replacement.

Hartley is at least a winner as a captain at international level. Not sure we need a specialist in failure.

Sorted then:

catchweight wrote:Gatland is in a bind with the captaincy. AWJ is his team captain, so it will be hard for him to select the captain of another Nation without seeming like a vote of no confidence in AWJ.

I think he might go with someone slightly left field to avoid that problem and not pick a recognised captain rom any of the home Nations.

Possibly Sexton if he is fit. Or Connor Murray.

I wish they had a tradition of picking a captain from a different country. I am not advocating Hartley by the way, but last time around it should have been POC in the first place.

majesticimperialman wrote:

wayne wrote:

majesticimperialman wrote:Just curios after yesterdays game does every ( most) folks on here still think AWJ will be captain for the Lions?

Yes, at least he wasn't subbed at just over half way through the match, outplayed by his opposite number, and shown up by his replacement.

wayne, you are right he was not sunbed at half time. But, But Hartley did not make the mistake that AWJ did.

AWJ cost Wales the game by turning down 2 shots at goal which would have given Wales 6 point clearance of England. but on both times it FAILED.

1 when they took a line out in Englands 22.

2 When they opted for the scrum. and England won a p-enalty.

Easy target but the failure was in execution of the set piece following the decision. You could easily argue that had they gone for the 3 points then they would not have got the try. None of these things happen in isolation.

I am not the greatest fan of AWJ the player (good but not great etc), but I don't think we can judge his captaincy until the 6N has run its course. I think he is more prominent in his play now he's captain. Working out how his decisions influence his team and the results is harder

Opting for the scrum instead of 3 points in front of the posts early in the game was a bad call by AWJ in my opinion

catchweight wrote:Opting for the scrum instead of 3 points in front of the posts early in the game was a bad call by AWJ in my opinion

galactically bad, win the game first then the bonus points. IMO you never leave an opportunity to take points early doors and AWJ must have known the game was going to be close, you'd only option the scrum when it is late doors and you need a 5 pointer to draw/win.

Brings his whole candidacy as probable Lions Capt under scrutiny.

Everyone virtually agrees that you need to score tries to beat the All Blacks. So 3 pointers ain't going to do it and actually shows the All Blacks that you're still intimidated.

AWJ had the right approach - 'we're not here to roll over or run away from full combat'. They didn't run away and didn't roll over. They lacked the backup that England could call on but England didn't expect that game.

Interesting discussion about captain. I have huge respect for AWJ and would have no squabble if he is Lions captain. To a certain point these can be circular discussions. Hartley is a very good captain. This is clear, and, for example, has freed Robshaw to be a truly impactful player. On the other hand, I am sure Robshaw would have been better as captain if he played for Eddie Jones. And likely Hartley less successful if he was captain under Lancaster. Either way, Hartley is the incumbent England captain, is sitting on a nice winning streak and is playing himself back into shape. Let's see what happens. Either way, the Lions are in good hands.

SecretFly wrote:Everyone virtually agrees that you need to score tries to beat the All Blacks.  So 3 pointers ain't going to do it and actually shows the All Blacks that you're still intimidated.

AWJ had the right approach - 'we're not here to roll over or run away from full combat'.  They didn't run away and didn't roll over.  They lacked the backup that England could call on but England didn't expect that game.

2 x 3 =6

6-1 = 5

5+2 = 7 > 6

??



V – E + F = 2

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:5+2 = 7 > 6

3 + 3 + 3=9 > 7

You don't need tries to beat anyone, ask Jannie De Beer.

Big question for me is what do we do about the form rep issue. Take Faletau for example, returns this weekend undercooked after a 2 month lay off, replacing Moriarty in what was for me a pivotal momentum swing. There will be other candidates like this e.g. Kruis and Vunipola who simply aren't going to get the game time but are surely nailed on tourists. Point is if we take undercooked players even if they are of the stature of Faletau et al are we asking for trouble. True they'll get a proper warm up in the tour games but its a definite gamble.

Billy V rumoured to be back for Ireland game but I take ur point. Those factors will be left to the medics/performance gurus not us.

Thought Hogg was steady again. Difficult for him as Scotland struggled for continuity. Little black mark against him for his bad attempt at a tackle for France's try but he obviously got one of his own. I wasn't so impressed with the finish as his ability to be mr right place right time. That is proving invaluable.

Russell pretty poor this week I thought. Put Scotland on the back foot with alarming regularity by passing on crappy ball and trying offloads when they weren't on. Still not playing territory when his team are under the pump.

AWJ Campaign for the Lions Captaincy took a MASSIVE hit last weekend IMHO.

We need a leader who recognizes when they are in a huge test match and keep their head in pressure situations and not get caught up in the emotion of it all and plays to the crowd.

When in front of the post and you have a penalty you take the points.

TightHEAD wrote:AWJ Campaign for the Lions Captaincy took a MASSIVE hit last weekend IMHO.

We need a leader who recognizes when they are in a huge test match and keep their head in pressure situations and not get caught up in the emotion of it all and plays to the crowd.

When in front of the post and you have a penalty you take the points.

I don't agree with that at all. despite the loss I thought Wales were excellent and did most things very well. I was surprised that they messed up a crucial lineout near the England 22 with 10/15 minutes left.

Martin Johnson would have took the points.
POC would have took the points.
Warburton would have took the points.

AWJ is a great player but as Captain we need someone with a cool head. He doesn't have that or so it seems to me.

GunsGermsV2 wrote:

TightHEAD wrote:AWJ Campaign for the Lions Captaincy took a MASSIVE hit last weekend IMHO.

We need a leader who recognizes when they are in a huge test match and keep their head in pressure situations and not get caught up in the emotion of it all and plays to the crowd.

When in front of the post and you have a penalty you take the points.

I don't agree with that at all. despite the loss I thought Wales were excellent and did most things very well. I was surprised that they messed up a crucial lineout near the England 22 with 10/15 minutes left.

GunsGerms

That is what tight head is on about. Wales should not have took the line out. They should have taken the points instead. That way Wales would have won.

TightHEAD wrote:Martin Johnson would have took the points.
POC would have took the points.
Warburton would have took the points.

AWJ is a great player but as Captain we need someone with a cool head. He doesn't have that or so it seems to me.

I like a captain who makes a brave call and goes for the win. That's what Best did v NZ in the Chicago test. However, he went for the points in the second test and we lost. AWJ is the right man for the job for me, 100%.

majesticimperialman wrote:

GunsGermsV2 wrote:

TightHEAD wrote:AWJ Campaign for the Lions Captaincy took a MASSIVE hit last weekend IMHO.

We need a leader who recognizes when they are in a huge test match and keep their head in pressure situations and not get caught up in the emotion of it all and plays to the crowd.

When in front of the post and you have a penalty you take the points.

I don't agree with that at all. despite the loss I thought Wales were excellent and did most things very well. I was surprised that they messed up a crucial lineout near the England 22 with 10/15 minutes left.

GunsGerms

That  is what tight head is on about. Wales should not have took the line out. They should have taken the points instead. That way Wales would have won.

No I no. I think the lineout was the right call. I think the executing was surprisingly bad though.

Best shouldn't even be on the plane.

TightHEAD wrote:Best shouldn't even be on the plane.

I bet he will be.

TightHEAD wrote:Best shouldn't even be on the plane.

You think he'll be given his own private jet?

GunsGermsV2 wrote:

TightHEAD wrote:Best shouldn't even be on the plane.

I bet he will be.

Fingers crossed its not heading to NZ.

TightHEAD wrote:

GunsGermsV2 wrote:

TightHEAD wrote:Best shouldn't even be on the plane.

I bet he will be.

Fingers crossed its not heading to NZ.

This is the fixture list:


Date Home team Score Away team Venue
3 June New Zealand Barbarians vs British and Irish Lions Toll Stadium, Whangarei
7 June Blues vs British and Irish Lions Eden Park, Auckland
10 June Crusaders vs British and Irish Lions AMI Stadium, Christchurch
13 June Highlanders vs British and Irish Lions Forsyth Barr Stadium, Dunedin
17 June Māori All Blacks vs British and Irish Lions Rotorua International Stadium, Rotorua
20 June Chiefs vs British and Irish Lions Waikato Stadium, Hamilton
24 June New Zealand vs British and Irish Lions Eden Park, Auckland
27 June Hurricanes vs British and Irish Lions Westpac Stadium, Wellington
1 July New Zealand vs British and Irish Lions Westpac Stadium, Wellington
8 July New Zealand vs British and Irish Lions Eden Park, Auckland

There will need to be at least 3/4 hookers. In 2004 there were 4 hookers on the tour. Do you want Dylan Hartley to play all 10 matches?

Id be surprised if Best isnt selected to tour.

Given that hartley has missed a Lions tour and a World Cup through suspension Id say there is a bigger chance that he will miss out. That would be funny.

As long as Jamie George is 1st choice Best can hold a tackle bag in training for all I care.

TightHEAD wrote:As long as Jamie George is 1st choice Best can hold a tackle bag in training for all I care.

That's real fighting talk. He must be really good.

Best in the NH by some distance!

Might as well take Kruis and Itoje for the 2nd row seeing as they are a true world class combination and keep that Sarries unit together.

TightHEAD wrote:Best in the NH by some distance!

Might as well take Kruis and Itoje  for the 2nd row seeing as they are a true world class combination and keep that Sarries unit together.

They can stick together in the dirt trackers, whilst Best throws in to the Gray brothers in the test team

Jonny will be on the plane - bit too much competition at lock for Richie, I fancy (Kruis, Launchbury, Itoje, Lawes, Henderson, his brother), particularly if A-W J does get the nod as captain.

TightHEAD wrote:Best in the NH by some distance!

Might as well take Kruis and Itoje  for the 2nd row seeing as they are a true world class combination and keep that Sarries unit together.

Based on what? He hardly plays at international level. He may be the bolter though.

You could be right captain but can see an all Ireland front row.

England were mushed against France, they've a big load of softies in the pack at the minute so expect us to do the same in Dublin.

rodders wrote:

TightHEAD wrote:Best in the NH by some distance!

Might as well take Kruis and Itoje  for the 2nd row seeing as they are a true world class combination and keep that Sarries unit together.

They can stick together in the dirt trackers, whilst Best throws in to the Gray brothers in the test team

I'd love to see the return of the old Ireland/Scotland vs. Wales/England fixture (this is purely rhetorical and I'm not suggesting another show pony match into an already overcrowded season).

http://www.rugbyrelics.com/images/aaaaa/ez/99-19551231.jpg

The Scotland / Ireland team would be pretty lethal:

1. McGrath
2. Best
3. Furlong
4. Gray
5. Gray
6. POM
7. Watson
8. Stander

9. Murray
10. Sexton/Jackson
11. Seymour
12. Dunbar
13. Ringrose
14. Maitland
15 Hogg

16. Brown
17. Healy
18. Fagerson
19. Henderson
20. Heaslip
21. Laidlaw
22. Bennett
23. Zebo

Scotland have a golden generation of talent there at the minute, especially in the backs.

I can see them really contending for the title over the next few years.

Furlong definitely, Rory possibly - loose-head will be interesting. A fit Nel, a fit Mako, McGrath or maybe even Healy? Nice bit of strength in depth brewing up there.

As long as we score more points than them, that'll do me - England got three more than France, so I'm still wary!

GunsGermsV2 wrote:

TightHEAD wrote:Best in the NH by some distance!

Might as well take Kruis and Itoje  for the 2nd row seeing as they are a true world class combination and keep that Sarries unit together.

Based on what? He hardly plays at international level. He may be the bolter though.

Lol. Best must worried as he is already Poopie himself silly on the bog.

Any idea who won that game Rugger Radge?

There are a few Scots in the argument this time and not just among the backs, I'd say, which will be good for the squad.

The near enough certainties: Hogg, Seymour, Dunbar, Nel (if fit), J. Gray

Playing themselves into serious contention: Strauss, Hardie, (especially) Watson. I see Watson as a bolter for the starting jersey at 7 if he continues at this rate of improvement.

GunsGermsV2 wrote:Any idea who won that game Rugger Radge?

None at all, I was only vaguely aware of it's existence because one of the Scottish lads played at my club (Dunfermline) and the programme still adorns the clubhouse wall.

GunsGermsV2 wrote:Any idea who won that game Rugger Radge?

England/Wales 21-16 Scotland/Ireland

http://rugbyfootballhistory.com/timeline1920s.htm