Aus coming to India

First topic message reminder :

Australia squad Steven Smith (capt), David Warner, Matt Renshaw, Usman Khawaja, Shaun Marsh, Peter Handscomb, Glenn Maxwell, Matthew Wade (wk), Mitchell Marsh, Ashton Agar, Steve O'Keefe, Mitchell Starc, Mitchell Swepson, Josh Hazlewood, Jackson Bird, Nathan Lyon

Aus has declared their squad and they have 4 spinners + Maxwell who can bowl spin....and smith too can


and only 3 seamers in the squad....implies they will play 2 seamers and 3 spinners

india should produces pitches like they did vs NZ and SA.....krumblers and not the types they did vs Eng

Ashwin's decline with the bat is also concern...he's just too tired it seems from the number of overs he has bowled.....22 innings he has bowled in and as he has bowled more and more his batting has gone down.

the only way to compensate is play 6 batsmen again in the next game at Ranchi

and play Pandya in Dharamsala as the allrounder

Hats of to India for a terrific fightback. For Australia, it's always tough to lose after being in a winning position.
I felt Australia should really have won with a first innings lead of 87 on that wicket. I agree that it's going to be very difficult for Aus now and it just shows just how hard it is to win an away series these days.

So where are all the Nathan Lyon fan boys hiding today? As I said in my previous posts, Lyon only gets wickets when batsmen are donating them to him. Once again in the backend of a match Lyon went missing in the second innings. He doesn't have the ability or talent to get good batsmen out. Truly dreadful bowler

Kholi is having a big public grump about the Australians trying to get guidance from the dressing room on whether to use DRS or not.
Apparently he said it happened twice before the umpires interviened on a third occasion. There was also a suggestion in the last England ODI that the Windies were stalling for a replay before using a review.

Nathaniel - I don't believe anyone is hiding. I haven't seen any of the last two days' play which is why I haven't commented on it and can't say anything as to Lyon's bowling second time round. However, even if he bowled very badly then (and from the reports I've read he didn't) that doesn't automatically make him a very bad bowler. What it does do is belong in the mix with his eightfer and all his other Test performances.

That's entirely consistent with the views of most a couple of days earlier. He bowled outstandingly well then and whilst most were pleased for him, we acknowledged that by itself didn't make him an outstanding bowler.

In my considered opinion he's proved himself to be a good Test bowler and an especially important one to the Australian cause in recent years.

Opinions vary and I have no problem with others having a different one from mine provided they can honestly say they've given the matter proper consideration. I have no belief whatsoever that you could make that claim.

Again, each to their own, but I would also suggest that you consider whether this is the forum for you.

Gooseberry wrote:Kholi is having a big public grump about the Australians trying to get guidance from the dressing room on whether to use DRS or not.
Apparently he said it happened twice before the umpires interviened on a third occasion.  There was also a suggestion in the last England ODI that the Windies were stalling for a replay before using a review.

there are glitches in the DRS procedure implementation  that are becoming evident ..the notable ones recently

1) the 20 second window in which the review should be called for is not strictly followed by the umps.....open up possibilities like dressing room intervention and benefit of large screen replays

2) no all modes of dismissal are reviewed once referred i.s if umpire made a referral for a catch and the ball went off the pads then an LBW should also be checked .
Kohli had to call for two referrals on the same delivery against BD.....when DRS denied catch ...he called for an LBW whihc was successful

Gooseberry wrote:Kholi is having a big public grump about the Australians trying to get guidance from the dressing room on whether to use DRS or not.
Apparently he said it happened twice before the umpires interviened on a third occasion.  There was also a suggestion in the last England ODI that the Windies were stalling for a replay before using a review.

Goose - do the laws / regulations cover this in any way?

If not, seems hard to stop it provided decision is made in time.

EDIT: just seen KP_f's last post. Point 1) of that is particularly relevant to my comment above.

According to wikipedia the window is 15 seconds, I thought it was 30 ...but apparently there is one ....and it isnt strictly enforced.

Kholis real complaint though was that its "against the spirit" to get a steer from the dressing room (and TV) regardless of a window.

Think the rules do say you are to take the decision pretty much on field and are not allowed to get confirmation from the dressing room. Kohli's gone to war on this, ripping into Smith even after the match was done. The Australian skipper suggested that it was a oneoff mistake that he shouldn't have made, he called it a brain fade. Kohli responded by saying that if it happens for 3 days, then it can't be a brain fade.
http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/content/video_audio/1085759.html

Kohli added that they had reported the matter to the umpires, the match referee, and that the umpire thus knew what Smith was about to do when he turned around and hence he was stopped.
There is a bit of a gap between this game and the next, and if the media from the 2 sides also join the issue, this has explosive potential for some time.......

Former Australian wicketkeeper Ian Healy for a moment thought he's still the test keeper and tried a bit of sledging on the Indian skipper. Virat didn't hold back one bit!.
"Kohli responded by pointing out Healy's reaction to being wrongly given out in the Centurion Test in 1997 - swearing as he walked off, Healy then threw his bat while climbing the steps to the dressing room.

"[I'll lose respect] in his eyes?" Kohli asked dismissively. "We've got 1.2 billion people in India. One person doesn't make a difference to my life. And also I think you should go and search on YouTube, when he was given out in Centurion, down the leg side. I heard he said something about me not having good behaviour with umpires - I think you all should YouTube that video and I think, yeah, that says it all. Just see that video and next time you ask me the same question."

msp83 wrote:Think the rules do say you are to take the decision pretty much on field and are not allowed to get confirmation from the dressing room. Kohli's gone to war on this, ripping into Smith even after the match was done. The Australian skipper suggested that it was a oneoff mistake that he shouldn't have made, he called it a brain fade. Kohli responded by saying that if it happens for 3 days, then it can't be a brain fade.
http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/content/video_audio/1085759.html

well yes Kohli doesn't mince his words......and gets the right words to make his point 
aggressive and articulate

I think you should have to call what you are reviewing with DRS. In the above example either caught or lbw, not both.

In the spirit of the game, DRS is supposed to be there to review blatantly bad calls. This means that you should be pretty sure on what dismissal method you are reviewing for.

If you can review all dismissal methods off one review then you will just get more speculative reviewing, which I don't think is in the right spirit.  

As for looking to the support staff for help - this should be disallowed. I'm not surprised Kohli is unhappy.

Is Kohli typically a feisty character? Or is this out of character?

Did anyone see that when Shaun marsh was out, and didn't review he was not out and Smith said afterwards marsh asked him should he review and Smith said "go", meaning "go fir the review", but marsh thought he meant "go" as in to the changing rooms and didn't review.

Amazing

Electric Demon wrote:I think you should have to call what you are reviewing with DRS. In the above example either caught or lbw, not both.

In the spirit of the game, DRS is supposed to be there to review blatantly bad calls. This means that you should be pretty sure on what dismissal method you are reviewing for.

If you can review all dismissal methods off one review then you will just get more speculative reviewing, which I don't think is in the right spirit.  

As for looking to the support staff for help - this should be disallowed. I'm not surprised Kohli is unhappy.

Is Kohli typically a feisty character? Or is this out of character?

I've no problem with speculative reviews - because 95% of the time they are just that and ultimately you lose a review

Kohli is extremely feisty and petty. Always has been. It's a great trait in him according to Indian fans but the same qualities on Ben Stokes are detrimental to the game........

What a great Test match. Only caught bits and pieces of the action, but it has been compelling stuff.

Nigel Llong handled the Smith (non)-review perfectly IMO. As soon as he saw Smith look up, he was straight across to send him on his way. That and the mishandled communication for the Marsh dismissal shows the pressure was definitely squeezing the minds of the Aussie players. And as much as the Aussies have improved since their nadir against SA, there are still batsmen not pulling their weight *cough* Mitchell Marsh *cough*.

Re. Lyon, I made the point earlier in the thread that I felt he was overrated in Asia. Or certainly that his overall record shouldn't be muddled with his Asian record. But he has done what he says on the tin, and has generally kept it tight and chipped in with wickets, outside of his all time performance in the first innings here. He isn't a bloke who will spin a team out in Asia in the fourth innings (they aren't easy to find. Ask England, South Africa, Australia and NZ...), but to call a bloke with 240 Test wickets at 33 a club bowler is just ridiculously wrong.

A shame that the DRS nonsense has overshadowed an exciting Test, it's actually the headline in a lot of places. Kohli is a fiery character, but I do give him a lot credit for his response to criticism from Ian Healy who was an absolute walking mouth back in the day

While we are at it, I think if a review is for LBW and on review if it is found that the ball had taken the edge and was caught, the batsman would still be given out. Likewise, a review for a bat-pad might still be given out even if the batsman hasn't hit but is hit in front of the stumps and the ball is projected to hit the stumps.

VTR wrote:A shame that the DRS nonsense has overshadowed an exciting Test, it's actually the headline in a lot of places. Kohli is a fiery character, but I do give him a lot credit for his response to criticism from Ian Healy who was an absolute walking mouth back in the day

Have had my reservations about Virat's behavior at times. But he has learned to channel his aggression much better, doesn't take it out on dressing room lockers and stuff. He still comes across as very aggressive, but just about manages to stay within lines most of the time.
And on the review issue, pretty much with him, what Smith did was absolutely wrong, within the laws of the game, and even that notoriously undefinable concept of the spirit of cricket is highly unlikely to take a charitable view of what he did. The fact, as was acknowledged by Smith himself, that it was his non-striking partner Peter Handscomb who instinctively told him to look up itself suggests that its a well planned team strategy more than anything else.

And Healy? The fellow is an embarrassment even in the commentary box, still thinks he's the Australian wicketkeeper and their supreme cheerleader. Absolutely loved Virat for his response to the clown!

I agree, I think Kohli just about operates on the right side of things. He ramps it up, but can back it up with his own and his team's performances. Australia can certainly give it out so fair play to the guy.

I also expect, he was desperate to find an angle to keep the pressure on after the match. India have come back into the series and will want to keep Australia under pressure on and off the field

msp83 wrote:

And on the review issue, pretty much with him, what Smith did was absolutely wrong, within the laws of the game, and even that notoriously undefinable concept of the spirit of cricket is highly unlikely to take a charitable view of what he did. The fact, as was acknowledged by Smith himself, that it was his non-striking partner Peter Handscomb who instinctively told him to look up itself suggests that its a well planned team strategy more than anything else.

that's a hilarious way of stating so 

http://www.smh.com.au/sport/cricket/michael-clarke-says-virat-kohlis-allegations-australia-were-infringing-on-drs-rules-may-have-merit-20170307-guszyl.html 

Michael Clarke says Virat Kohli's allegations Australia were infringing on DRS rules may have merit

What a great Test Match !

Tough for Australia to lose like that after they must have felt nearly bullet proof with a lead of 87 on that pitch...they have a task to lift again for the next match; but at least they have a little break to do so. Shouldn't be giving it away : India have been shown to be only human - and one more win would still secure the trophy...

And massive congratulations to India on a great fightback I am with Ian Chappell on this : I think the home team set the scene for the eventual result back on day two when they pressured Australia's bats relentlessly and prevented them from getting the rock crushing lead they might have expected while the pitch was still just about playable...the underrated pace bowlers (particularly poor old Ishant , who seems to be the favourite whipping boy for Indian fans - much like Ian Bell used to be for England ) deserve much credit for their tireless performances ; though it was Jadeja who ended up with the figures.
Then of course some great batting from Rahjul ,Pujara , and (at last) Rahane. Ashwin came to the party in the second innings - not surprisingly. But honestly I'd have been very surprised if Australia had made 180 on that day four track.
(Smith took a great catch to get Rahul on Monday. But did he drop the Border-Gavaskar Trophy when he missed Pujara on four ?)

On Lyon : I am far from a "fan-boy". While he is a good , steady bowler , particularly in Australia , I think he is a long way from the class of a Swann , let alone a Warne or a Murali. But a man who can take over 200 Test wickets is clearly no mug ; and anyone who thinks otherwise probably hasn't been watching cricket (or playing it) very much. His first innings haul here owed a bit to some insipid Indian batting ; but it still required a deal of skill and concentration on his part : so he earned it. Did he "fail" in the second innings ? A little , perhaps : I do think he tends to struggle sometimes when taxed with the "finishing" role in spinning conditions. perhaps he tried too hard - certainly he wasn't as consistently accurate. But he also had little luck ...swings and roundabouts, eh ? Think I'll leave it there.

Will have a say on Smith , Kohli , and drs soon . But back to work for now...

Not sure where to put this comment but great to see (from a Hampshire.. + England perspective) Mason Crane picked for New South Wales in the Sheffield shield game. The first overseas player to do so since Imran Khan in 1984!

Took 2 wickets in the first innings

jimbohammers wrote:Not sure where to put this comment but great to see (from a Hampshire.. + England perspective) Mason Crane picked for New South Wales in the Sheffield shield game. The first overseas player to do so since Imran Khan in 1984!

Took 2 wickets in the first innings

Hi Jimbo - you've done the right thing. If you don't know where to post, place it for the biggest audience!

Too early in my book to make a definitive call on Crane's future but you know I like the look of this young leggie. How the heck did he get the gig in New South Wales? Should be great experience for him anyway, by my reckoning seven of his NSW team mates have played Test cricket.

On a positive note for Australia MR Marsh is out of the series with a poorly shoulder. Presumably damaged by one of his long stints at the crease *cough*

Gooseberry wrote:On a positive note for Australia MR Marsh is out of the series with a poorly shoulder.  Presumably damaged by one of his long stints at the crease *cough*

Hi Goose - I actually thought about saying yesterday that he must be in injury time of extra time. I know there were high hopes for him but it just hasn't worked out. Watson being missed more than many expected.

Matthew wade doing very well to keep his place too...

I couldn't help drawing parallels with some of England's conviently timed injuries.

Not really sure there's an obvious replacement. Maxwell is equally awful. If it's looking like a lottery pitch again they could gamble on 4 bowlers ( which is effectively what they've had anyway) and stick the extra bat in.

As for Wade...what's Handscomes keeping like? Is he a legitimate option? If so the Kwjahsjsba could find a way in there. But I doubt they will make the switch.

When talking about how bad some of the players are it's easy to forget they were on the brink of winning the series and could still do it.

Gooseberry wrote:On a positive note for Australia MR Marsh is out of the series with a poorly shoulder.  Presumably damaged by one of his long stints at the crease *cough*

I read the report...whihc said that one time he was bowling at 140 kph and because of the injury he can bowl only in 120s...whihc is not considered good enough especially given that he doesn't score runs also.

I think though...he is naturally a 125kph bowler....who bowled beyond his body limits to hit 140kph for some time only...to impress and keep his place.

Bowling suddenly faster beyond your natural speed is not sustainable...the body machine breaks down ....as was with Irfan Pathan.
he stepped up his speed from 125ish to 135+ one time against Aus and broke down after 2 tests........and never recovered fully enough.

Bhuvi has been under pressure to show he can bowl fast with Kohli's emphasis on pace and every time he tries to bowl in the 135-140 window he breaks down.....his natural speed being only 130kph in my view.

Another case is of Woakes who was also a 125-130kph when I first saw him make his debut vs Aus.....but has successfully increased his speed to be in the 135-140 range without having broken down....
Must have worked very , very hard in the gyms on improving his shoulder and muscle strength

Woakes is said to have knee problems, so a fear is that he could break down, especially as he has a high workload nowadays

Marsh has only bowled 5 overs in two tests....if thats what did his shoulder hes got more problems than just cranking up his speed a notch.

About 3 or 4 years ago Woakes had a lot of success at county level and there were many shouts then for him to get an England call up. I wasn't amongst them as I thought his lack of pace would considerably hinder him when stepping up to the next level; the late (of this Board anyway ) Mike Selig was one of the few to agree with me at the time.

Anyway, as I've more recently acknowledged and I've been happy to do so, Woakes has proved me wrong in that he has been successful at Test and international level. Mind you, he did have to up his pace to do so. I just hope that hasn't come at the expense of his body.

Woakes like Stokes may be best preserving his career by being sparingly and treated as a genuine all rounder if hes going to be a key figure in all 3 formats. I guess England have a strength and a problem in haviung too many of their first choice bowlers being all format all rounders...with the only good test specialists being broken down old men (or in Woods case borken down young man)

Id still rather be in Englands space than having to field a player who origianly got left out for a semi injured Marsh though.

Leaving selection for the moment : I see the fuss over Smith and the "attempted consultation" with the dressing room still rages on Cricinfo
Australian CEO getting involved as well as the coach...handbags at ten paces...

Personally not sure why anyone is too bothered about a batsman looking at the balcony - if they can tell better from TV or the view from off the ground than the batsman himself whether a close lbw is worth a referral (only time it could surely make any difference?) good luck to them : commentators are rarely unanimous after repeated slow -mo views - and they have (or should have ) just fifteen seconds...
Not that it matters : that is the rule they made ; and the umpires are perfectly capable of policing it - as they did ; so no real need for Kohli to get involved.
Just as a side issue : what did he want to happen ? Had Smith called for a review it would have cost his team their last referral ; and it was so plumb that it is hard to believe either Smith or an eagle eyed coach would have done so - making the whole exercise futile ...

Presumably Kohli was concerned about the principle. Guarding the sacred Spirit of the Game , etc

Or just maybe trying to get under his opponents' skin ?

Whatever . I reckon Kohli sometimes allows his competitive nature to lead him into slightly overdoing the verbal warfare and aggressive body stuff ; but I don't mind too much : it's a tough old game and the opponents are generally big enough and ugly enough to look after themselves. All teams have - or had - players who push it a bit ( Anderson for England , Haddin certainly for Australia , sure you could all name more) and as long as it doesn't go totally overboard I reckon it doesn't do too much harm .
All gets noticed more now because of stump mikes and close camera lens ; but if anyone thinks it was all politeness back in the good old days they probably believe in the Easter Bunny...

Still I'll be glad when the mind games stop and the third Test in this fascinating series gets under way.

No issue if Smith doesn't attempt to cheat, fully on Kohli's side and would like to see any player doing similar fined.

Ashwin and Jadeja are now joint top of the ICC test bowler rankings. Shows just how devastating they've been for the past year or so, opposition and home tracks aside.
Another spinner in the top 5 too.

And England's only regular starting spinner languishing at 31 sums up the gulf. Lyon and Okeefe are good enough to trouble India on helpful pitches, England's spinners weren't. Indias spinners are good enough to trouble anyone on any pitch.

Australia have called up Marcus stoinis as Mitchell Marsh's replacement, due to his "bowling prowess"

He has a career bowling average of 47.

Remind me again who England called up for their bowling prowess

guildfordbat wrote:

jimbohammers wrote:Not sure where to put this comment but great to see (from a Hampshire.. + England perspective) Mason Crane picked for New South Wales in the Sheffield shield game. The first overseas player to do so since Imran Khan in 1984!

Took 2 wickets in the first innings

Hi Jimbo - you've done the right thing. If you don't know where to post, place it for the biggest audience!

Too early in my book to make a definitive call on Crane's future but you know I like the look of this young leggie. How the heck did he get the gig in New South Wales? Should be great experience for him anyway, by my reckoning seven of his NSW team mates have played Test cricket.

Hi Guildford

He's been playing in Sydney over the winter and really impressed, but not quite the highest level of cricket so it has come as a bit of a surprise! He's done really well in this game though, 2 wickets in the first innings, 15 not out with the bat + 2 wickets already in the 2nd innings. He's playing with some top players so should be great for his development

alfie wrote:Leaving selection for the moment : I see the fuss over Smith and the "attempted consultation" with the dressing room still rages on Cricinfo
Australian CEO getting involved as well as the coach...handbags at ten paces...

Personally not sure why anyone is too bothered about a batsman looking at the balcony - if they can tell better from TV or the view from off the ground than the batsman himself whether a close lbw is worth a referral (only time it could surely make any difference?) good luck to them : commentators are rarely unanimous after repeated slow -mo views - and they have (or should have ) just fifteen seconds...
Not that it matters : that is the rule they made ; and the umpires are perfectly capable of policing it - as they did ; so no real need for Kohli to get involved.
Just as a side issue : what did he want to happen ? Had Smith called for a review it would have cost his team their last referral ; and it was so plumb that it is hard to believe either Smith or an eagle eyed coach would have done so - making the whole exercise futile ...

Presumably Kohli was concerned about the principle. Guarding the sacred Spirit of the Game , etc

Or just maybe trying to get under his opponents' skin ?  

Whatever .  I reckon Kohli sometimes allows his competitive nature to lead him into slightly overdoing the verbal warfare and aggressive body stuff ; but I don't mind too much : it's a tough old game and the opponents are generally big enough and ugly enough to look after themselves.  All teams have - or had - players who push it a bit ( Anderson for England , Haddin certainly for Australia , sure you could all name more) and as long as it doesn't go totally overboard I reckon it doesn't do too much harm .  
All gets noticed more now because of stump mikes and close camera lens ; but if anyone thinks it was all politeness back in the good old days they probably believe in the Easter Bunny...

Still I'll be glad when the mind games stop and the third Test in this fascinating series gets under way.

Alfie, It comes across as you would blame Virat Kohli a lot more than Steven Smith for the controversy around the DRS referral issue. Rules of the game clearly does not allow players seeking dressing room assistance for DRS calls. A DRS call either side can be of considerable significance in a game of fine margins. So if a side is using entirely illegitimate tactics to get an advantage, the opposition is well within their rights to protest and make an issue out of it. Kohli has publically stated that He had already noticed the Australians using the tactics prior to the Smith issue and had notified the umpires, and that umpire Long knew what Smith was up to the moment he turned around and so intervened the way he did because of this prior notice from the Indians. If that's the case, then that is significant enough. So it is not similar to the usual antics of certain players including Kohli himself when they try to push the lines at times. Of course by persisting with the issue in a big way, Kohli is also playing a useful mindgame, beating the Australians up with a stick they conveniently provided him with.

Mitchell Marsh ruled out, a bit of a setback to India I'd say! But Stoinis picked for his bowling? If they say the Extra, Impact factor, I can understand him or Maxwell. But either of them for their bowling? Really? Seriously?
Now watch Stoinis taking 7 for 56 in the next innings, this Indian side is generous that way.

msp83 wrote:Mitchell Marsh ruled out, a bit of a setback to India I'd say! But Stoinis picked for his bowling? If they say the Extra, Impact factor, I can understand him or Maxwell. But either of them for their bowling? Really? Seriously?
Now watch Stoinis taking 7 for 56 in the next innings, this Indian side is generous that way.

did Lehman hint playing Khwaja in place of Mitch Marsh ?

I would Ashton agar as a replacement for Marsh......bats no worse and a proper bowler atleast for conditions expected in Ranchi.....and provides cover for the finger injury of Lyon.

awaiting Indian squad to be announced for the 3rd test

Re: the Smith looking up to the dressing room seeking guidance event...there should not be any controvery if cricket becomes objective about treating these type of incidents...

Like when you are caught jumping a red light on  camera......the camera nor does the police come and ask you whether you intended to cheat the system....or you had no evil intention in your heart and it was an accident.

You violated the law
and You pay the fine.

Ditto here...Smith Violated the law..and should pay the fine

and Kohli should too if he has violated a law saying what he did

Anyways, the Dressingroom Review System controversy seems to have settled down, at least for now after a meeting between the 2 CEOs of the respective boards as the BCCI took back the complaint against Smith.
Kohli seems to have won the mind games as each of Australia's reviews from here on will be pretty much under actual and perceived scrutiny as such. And after putting the Australians under pressure, the issue won't linger on for too long either.
The ICC has played the mediator role this time, expect consistency from their side, hope the same standards will be applied for all sides and all players.......

Vijay retained, Pandya out injured. Vijay expected to be fit for the 3rd test. Pandya has a shoulder injury.

msp83 wrote:Vijay retained, Pandya out injured. Vijay expected to be fit for the 3rd test. Pandya has a shoulder injury.

How did Pandya damage his shoulder a second time just sitting on the bench

Reports Mitchell Starc has suffered a stress fracture and will be out long term

Well theres a surprise. Remind me again why England played 4 seamers rather than ragging two senseless. Still not to worry Australia have Stoinis and Maxwell to save the day.

India might be having issues of their own but if they don't win this at a canter then they should be ashamed.

Australia still have plenty to be proud of regardless of what happens in the rest of the series though.