PGA Tour: Golf in La La Land: Notes from the Ballwasher

First topic message reminder :

1).Genesis? Conjures up images of Charterhouse lads selling England by the pound and lambs lying down on Broadway.
Or ancient fiction.
But, no, let there be light.
We're talking about LA'S historic "Open" being sponsored by a South Korean motor company - pity they couldn't have called it the Genesis LA Open though. Instead, it just sounds like a revival of the old Genny Open. RIP.

2).Whatever they call it, the quality of the course and field cannot be doubted, as good a field as we're likely to find this "regular" season on one of the Tour's elite courses, George Thomas's Par 71 Riviera CC. Southern California, and Los Angeles in particular, is scheduled for some of golf's premier events these next few years; apart from the Tour stops in San Diego and LA, we'll look forward to:
~US Open: 2021: Torrey Pines
~US Open: 2023: Los Angeles CC
~Walker Cup: 2017: Los Angeles CC
~US Amateur: 2017: Rivera

3).With the World Rankings, and especially the OWGR Top Ten, featuring an almost record Number of young players, the focus is increasingly on youth, but perhaps Riviera will demand experience as well. Bill Haas was the last player younger than 30 (and he was in his 30th year) to win here and he was making his 7th visit.
So: Will any upstart yute emulate the feats of Thomas (2), Swafford, Rahm, Matsuyama and Spieth so far this year and earn a 7th successive win this year for a 20-something.

4).Those 6 x young guns are climbing the World Rankings (well, Spieth will be climbing again) but age is no protector of continued status. Once a player starts plummeting down the rankings it usually demands a sustained string of good results to reverse trend and move back up the charts.
Some big plungers who started out 2017 in the top 200 and are headed south in a hurry include:
Senden's ranking has slid 30.9%
Harrington's: 30.4%
Karlberg: 28.7%
Chris Wood: 25.6%
Danny Lee: 25.4%
Honourable Mentions to: Donaldson (down 22.4%), Dubuisson (down 24.1%), both in free fall.
For the Kaufman fan club, he's down 23.5% which is nothing to get smylie about. He withdrew this week, complaining about poa annua greens and looking forward to being back on Bermuda.

5).For all the beauty of the Monterey Peninsula, the final round at Pebble Beach must have been as dreary an 18 holes' TV as we've watched in a long time; in such circumstances I reckon the TV commentators have a responsibility to do more than rhapsodise about the scenery, rabbit on about "celebrities" we've never heard of and offer endless analysis of Konica Minolta BizHub Swing Vision slo-mos. CBS can and should do better. Player interviews would be a good start.

6).Which takes nothing away from Jordan Spieth and the apparently effortless way he strolled to his 9th Tour win. And he's played well (4th, 12th, mc) enough at Riviera to suggest he has the course knowledge to win again.

7).One of the interesting aspects of Riviera are the two holes that open the front and back nines:
1st hole: About the easiest Par-5 on Tour with a scoring average of 4.2
10th hole: The iconic short Par-4 that remains a fine short hole but the green has got firmer, harder and more unforgiving to the extent that it can sometimes seem unfair. I thought there was a move afoot to re-do the green but I can't find anything to shed light on that. Well overdue if they haven't.

8).So: Who's here?
Top Tenners: Day, Dustin, Hideki, Spieth, Scott Thomas (not Kristin), Sergio, Reed.
Among course specialists are: Phil (2 wins), Bubba (2 wins) whilst Adam Scott has a win and 2 runners up, Dustin has runnered up twice and I like his chances this week after playing well at Pebble.

9).Europeans include:
Casey and Donald, both past runners up - but no European win since Faldo 20 years ago (and, yes, you can be sure we'll hear all about it) - Sergio, Harrington, Rose, Molinari, Lowry, McDowell and Kjeldsen (Soren needs some good results, and quick. Otherwise he might as well head back to Europe).
And Thomas Pieters who won the 2012 NCAA individual championship beating Cantlay, Rodgers and Justin Thomas, among others.
Albert Hammond was hashtagging "alternative facts" when he sang It Never Rains In Southern California, and we could be in for a dousing on Friday, perhaps showers other days; which will help approach shots to #10 at least.

10).Tiger Woods first played here 25 years ago (Q: "What do you think of Tiger Woods?" Sandy Lyle: "Dunno, never played it."). And he was going to celebrate with a return this week at a place he's never won as a Pro.
But he's withdrawn from the tournament, and withdrawn also from his twice rescheduled news conference.
Is this the end? No-one knows, but the days are surely numbered when he turns up and confidently(??) says he's only here to win the tournament.
Personal view is that he'd enjoy life a darn sight more if he just got well (perhaps find another doctor, diagnosis(??), this on's not working) and resigned himself to just playing for recreational enjoyment, whether at home or on Tour. He can play almost when and wherever he likes, why does he have to be so damn competitive?
Have fun Tiger; would have thought Arnold Palmer, among others, might have reminded you that it's only a game.

kwinigolfer wrote:Mac,
Wouldn't really agree, but the Tour plays with fire in its Coastal California events, staging their tournaments when the weather is typically at its worst - remember Adam Scott winning a 36-holer (in playoff w/Chad Campbell) a dozen years ago, while Pebble has been foreshortened a few times, resumed later in the year back in the late 90's! They shifted the MatchPlay from La Costa partly because of the weather.

If extreme weather events in the USA are becoming more prevalent with increasing impact of climate change, one can only be thankful that most (tho obviously not in California) of the destructive action occurs in those States where their Congressional representatives, by and large, are climate-change deniers. And there are now more of them in the "swamp" than ever, sleeping with coal and oil lobbyists.

It's not that America use fossil fuels per se Kwini, it's the sheer volume of it they use. I read somewhere once that each US individual uses EIGHT times as much Oil as their equivalent European.
The impact would be so much less, if America actually had an incentive to be more efficient, but the fuel is so cheap, cars so inefficient as a result that it's no surprise that they are the worlds biggest polluter.

super,
Exactly. And it's going to get worse. Cars/SUV's/trucks getting bigger again, no initiative to rein consumption in; quite the opposite in fact, especially if the supposed oil glut is real and brings prices down again.

kwinigolfer wrote:super,
Exactly. And it's going to get worse. Cars/SUV's/trucks getting bigger again, no initiative to rein consumption in; quite the opposite in fact, especially if the supposed oil glut is real and brings prices down again.

The hilarious thing is that due to protectionism they pretend that lots of European cars don't meet emission regulations whilst allowing many of their own vehicles, namely pickups exempt from emissions testing.

When I was in Texas in October, I hired a car and thought the pump was broken when I was charged just $25 to fill up a 4 litre engine car.

When you tell Americans that it costs about $100 to fill up a car in the UK they can't believe it.

super_realist wrote:

When you tell Americans that it costs about $100 to fill up a car in the UK they can't believe it.

Neither can I.

Why not, too cheap?

I fully agree the cost of gas is too cheap to really incent alternative behavior in these United States. The current administration, I'm sure, has no plans to reverse that.

Interesting chart (old to be sure):http://www.economicshelp.org/blog/5988/economics/list-of-countries-energy-use-per-capita/

Super

$100 is currently £80. How big is your fuel tank? My car fills up for about £50.

McLaren wrote:My car

Can you spot the error?

McLaren wrote:Super

$100 is currently £80.  How big is your fuel tank?  My car fills up for about £50.

Don't you all drive Hummers?

super_realist wrote:Why not, too cheap?

Just how much of it is actually tax.

Do they still have double-deckers in Edinburgh?

kwinigolfer wrote:Do they still have double-deckers in Edinburgh?

Most of the buses are still double deckers.

pedro wrote:

McLaren wrote:Super

$100 is currently £80.  How big is your fuel tank?  My car fills up for about £50.

Don't you all drive Hummers?

70 litres Pedro.

McLaren wrote:

kwinigolfer wrote:Do they still have double-deckers in Edinburgh?

Most of the buses are still double deckers.  

But can you fill it for £50???

McLaren wrote:Super

$100 is currently £80.  How big is your fuel tank?  My car fills up for about £50.
Don't you all drive Hummers?

50 quid? So your tank is about 40 litres? What is that, a rollerskate?

Just bog standard 4 door hatch.

Good to see they're playing; wouldn't be surprised if they called it a day once the first Rounders have finished, heavy storms just offshore.

McLaren wrote:Just bog standard 4 door hatch.

You must have to stop every 5 minutes to fill up as I'm sure you're too "green" to drive a diesel.

Shane goes ahead and bogeys his first hole of the day, No 10! not looking good for a lot of my picks this week.

The thread is now perfectly set up for a number of "leaking oil" comments over the next couple of days.

That (Round 2) lasted a lot longer than expected, still don't know why they didn't start it earlier.

Happy to see Martin Laird in with a good first two rounds after a couple of poor weeks.
And McDool looks like making the cut also; imagine he'd like to have started earlier too.

On yer bike (private flight) to Florida for Kjeldsen (lousy start to his double-dipping), Molinari & Shane.

These conditions had Shanes name written all over it, a real chance missed.

I'm never wrong wrote:

kwinigolfer wrote:Not watching it, but the website makes it look as if play is at a dawdle.

Fog is an issue. Horn just went off

Missed all of yesterday, did they play through the fog? Guerillas in the mist?

kwinigolfer wrote:That (Round 2) lasted a lot longer than expected, still don't know why they didn't start it earlier.

Happy to see Martin Laird in with a good first two rounds after a couple of poor weeks.
And McDool looks like making the cut also; imagine he'd like to have started earlier too.

On yer bike (private flight) to Florida for Kjeldsen (lousy start to his double-dipping), Molinari & Shane.

On a restart, they got to get the ENTIRE course ready not just the first few holes. ALL the GREENS have to be mowed, all bunkers have to raked, etc.

Unless they have unlimited equipment and labor, it is almost impossible to get a course ready for a restart at daybreak, unlike when they start on #1 and #10 when the only holes that have to be prepped are holes #1 and #10.

That's fair enough GPB, albeit somewhat counter-intuitive; just seems they left some meat on the bone (not to mention paying the price for slow play on Thursday).


Confirmed field for Honda next week - good weather expected! - includes:
Rafa C-B, Casey, Donald, Fitzpatrick, Sergio, (welcome back to) Freddie Jac, Kaymer, Kjeldsen, Knox, McDowell, Molinari, Pieters, Poulter, Power, Willett.

Good field, but not up to this week's strength.

Here is an interesting article on players who have played at least 40 rounds on both Euro and US PGA tours since 2010.

***Does not include co-sanctioned events events (WGCs and Majors)***

No player has performed better against PGATour competition than EuroTour competition. Some have performed equally against both.

http://datagolf.ca/a-quick-look-at-differences-in-field-quality-on-the-us-and-european-tours/

Kwini, I used to be Head of the Tournament Committee, and I would have to get with the Course Super when we had shot gun starts. I always wanted to go off at 8 am, and he would say that there is no way to get the greens mowed in time.

He told me that he could start mowing the greens at 3 am, and get done in time for a shotgun start, but mowed greens would have the dew fall at day-break.

I don't know how that is counter intuitive.

GPB wrote:Here is an interesting article on players who have played at least 40 rounds on both Euro and US PGA tours since 2010.  

***Does not include co-sanctioned events events (WGCs and Majors)***

No player has performed better against PGATour competition than EuroTour competition.  Some have performed equally against both.

http://datagolf.ca/a-quick-look-at-differences-in-field-quality-on-the-us-and-european-tours/

Interesting, but is it a valid comparison? Wouldn't think so for one moment, unless it also calibrated actual strength of field, which I can't see from the analysis. Imagine the top players have performed at least equally at Majors, Ryder Cups, etc. Which is where history judges them.

Sounds like they'll need chainsaws as well as pumps and mowers to prepare Riviera for a 7.00 a.m. start.

Why wouldn't it be a valid comparison?

Mouse over the highest dot. Its Rory

His average strokes gained against a Euro Tournament field is 2.56 strokes in 128 rounds

His average strokes gained against a PGATour field is 1.54 strokes in 211 rounds.

FTR: Strokes Gained = Score - Avg Score

If you included the co-sanctioned events, the data would get fuzzier.

I know that it is not the kind of analysis that EuroTour fans want to see, but it is something that I would expect by following golf closely for the last 10-15 years.

And it is only including players who have at least 40 rounds on each tour in un-co-sanctioned tournaments.

Its basically separating the EuroTour competition against the PgATour Competition. And its a measurement of depth of the tours, not just the top 20 players.

It wouldn't include a player like Spieth or Mickelson who does not play many EuroT tournaments nor would include a player like Matt Fitzpatrick who hasn't played many PGATour tournaments.

If all you're doing is trying to assert that the PGA Tour is stronger and deeper than the European Tour, then I don't think the relative merits of Todd Hamilton and Garth Mulroy are really necessary.

But I took the comparison as some sort of allegation that top European Tour golfers are thus proven inferior to top PGA Tour golfers. Which is not proven by your graph, and certainly not by results.

And maybe it's just the Remy Martin addling my brain . . . . . .

Its not just the Garth Mulroy and Richard Sternes of the Euro Tour.

It is the Rory M, and Sergios, and Kaymers, and Stensons, and Roses that have underperformed on the PGATour compared to their EuroTour records.

I don't think it proves that the best European Tour golfers are inferior to best US PGATour golfer, but I do think it proves that from Top to bottom, that US PGATour golfers are better than European Golfers.

This analysis correlates well with Sagarin Rankings which also illustrate that US PGATour golfers are under-ranked compared.

Sergio has 9 PGA wins to his 12 Euro wins, and he's spent a lot less time on the PGA, so that's not a bad return is it?

Stenson has also spent most of his career in Europe and has only won twice as much in Europe as America.

McIlroy is probably the one who has spent about an equal time and it shows as he's won 13 on the PGA and 13 in Europe.

As for Kaymer, he only joined the PGA in 2013 and lost his status in 2015, so his 3 wins on that tour isn't too bad is it?

As for Rose, he's 7 in America and 9 in Europe, again, not statistically valid is it?

As for your assertion that the PGA is better from top to bottom, I don't think that's true at all, the top 3rd is better than the European tour, no doubt about that, but I don't really think that the likes of Ken Duke, Jerry Kelly, Chappel, Streelman, Swafford etc are better than their European counterparts.

I'm not being an isolationist, but the majority of both tours is not great, it's only the top third in the PGA which really separates the two tours.

The weather for this tournament looks pretty grim. (Actually, some really needed rainfall for SoCal.) A shortened event?

36 holes in 2005, Sr; could be a repeat, unless they take it on to Monday, in which case NetJets and the rest will be scrambling to fly the players to PBI and the Honda.
Still, we don't know how much damage the course has suffered yet, not even sunrise for another half hour.

super_realist wrote:Sergio has 9 PGA wins to his 12 Euro wins, and he's spent a lot less time on the PGA, so that's not a bad return is it?

Stenson has also spent most of his career in Europe and has only won twice as much in Europe as America.

McIlroy is probably the one who has spent about an equal time and it shows as he's won 13 on the PGA and 13 in Europe.

As for Kaymer, he only joined the PGA in 2013 and lost his status in 2015, so his 3 wins on that tour isn't too bad is it?

As for Rose, he's 7 in America and 9 in Europe, again, not statistically valid is it?

As for your assertion that the PGA is better from top to bottom, I don't think that's true at all, the top 3rd is better than the European tour, no doubt about that, but I don't really think that the likes of Ken Duke, Jerry Kelly, Chappel, Streelman, Swafford etc are better than their European counterparts.

I'm not being an isolationist, but the majority of both tours is not great, it's only the top third in the PGA which really separates the two tours.

The article is not about aberrations and anomalies of outstanding performances. Its about OVERALL performance of players who have played 40 un-co-sanctioned events on both tours since 2010. It does not include a player like Rickie Fowler who has played 6 un-co-sanctioned Euro Tournaments and won two of them (Abu Dhabi and Scottish) while playing about 140 un-co-sanctioned PGATour events while winning 3 total tournaments.

It includes all rounds, not just the good ones that Sergio and Henrik have shot, but also the 75's and 76's that littler everyone's resume on both tours.. And this analysis does not focus on Europeans, it focuses on the European Tour and the players that have played a REPRESENTATIVE sample (40 rounds) on both tours. Like SAFfers Ernie, Oosty, and Schwartzel.

Still don't know what it's supposed to prove.

But one thing that I DO know for sure is that resumption of Riviera Round 2 has been pushed back 2 hrs to 9.00 a.m. local, round about the time we'll all be listening to Eamonn Andrews and Sports Report.

In the bright (hyped up?) young things column, Aaron Wise is becalmed in Panama, Bryson Deschamboh has hurt his hand (or forgot his brolly) and departed LA after another miserable week, but Austin Connolly is showing 'em how to do it, 3rd after Round 3 with the Fremantle Doctor in his sails. Oh Canada! Sort of.

PS: Hadn't realised Aaron Wise was the US version of Justin Rose . . . . . . . . .

kwinigolfer wrote:Still don't know what it's supposed to prove.

But one thing that I DO know for sure is that resumption of Riviera Round 2 has been pushed back 2 hrs to 9.00 a.m. local, round about the time we'll all be listening to Eamonn Andrews and Sports Report.

IMO, it is proving that the PGATour is a deeper tour. This is not a Rory vs Jordan analysis or a Westwood vs Stricker analysis. Its a Tour vs Tour analysis.

Riviera cannot afford many more delays and still get done tomorrow. According to Robo, PGATour has an option to cut to the nearest number to 60 rather than low 70 so that would help. Last 2nd round tee times are currently scheduled at 10:44 pt, which probably won't finish until 4 pm. They will be lucky to get round 3 started today, and the Rd2 leaders probably won't tee off Round 3 until the Sunday restart.

Decent forecast for Sunday, GPB, but I still haven't seen any reports about any damage to the course; they must think they have a shout if they set a revised resumption time.
Surely completing Round 2 today, play Round 3 Sunday and wrap things up Monday is do-able?

They are going to do everything possible to finish on Sunday. But it still possible, but not likely. And there is always the possibility of fog delay tomorrow morning.

PGATour doesn't like Monday finishes. Especially a hardship on Webbies who might be Monday qualifying for Honda. Some of the webbies might only get one more start between now and Valero Texas Open.

BTW...Here is some OWGR scenarios for this week, now that Hideki is apparently missing the cut and none of the contenders is playing Honda next week.

Dustin needs a solo 10th or better to pass Rory this week
Dustin will pass Rory on February 27th.*

Dustin needs to win and Day finish worse than 24th for Dustin to become #1 on Monday
Dustin needs to win and Day finish worse than a 3 way T10 for Dustin to become #1 on Feb 27.*

*Note: Dustin is losing a tournament in his divisor next week, his ranking will actually be higher on Feb 27 than it will be on Feb 20, no matter how finishes this week.

=====================

Spieth needs a Solo 8th to pass Hideki this week, top 5 to stay ahead of Hideki for two weeks going into Mexico.

Spieth needs a solo 6th to pass Stenson this week, solo 5th or better to stay ahead of Stenson for two weeks going into Mexico

Spieth needs a solo 2nd to pass Rory this week, and that will keep him ahead of Rory going into Mexico

Spieth needs to win, and Dustin finish worse than solo 2nd, to pass Dustin. If Dustin finishes in a Three way tie for 2nd or 3rd, Dustin will pass Spieth on Feb 27th.

Spieth will pass Dustin for one week if he finishes solo 2nd and Dustin finishes solo 9th or worse.

Blimey, They're on the move.

Good for the Tour.

EDIT: And good for McDool to finish of a decent round and actually make a cut.

GPB wrote:

super_realist wrote:Sergio has 9 PGA wins to his 12 Euro wins, and he's spent a lot less time on the PGA, so that's not a bad return is it?

Stenson has also spent most of his career in Europe and has only won twice as much in Europe as America.

McIlroy is probably the one who has spent about an equal time and it shows as he's won 13 on the PGA and 13 in Europe.

As for Kaymer, he only joined the PGA in 2013 and lost his status in 2015, so his 3 wins on that tour isn't too bad is it?

As for Rose, he's 7 in America and 9 in Europe, again, not statistically valid is it?

As for your assertion that the PGA is better from top to bottom, I don't think that's true at all, the top 3rd is better than the European tour, no doubt about that, but I don't really think that the likes of Ken Duke, Jerry Kelly, Chappel, Streelman, Swafford etc are better than their European counterparts.



I'm not being an isolationist, but the majority of both tours is not great, it's only the top third in the PGA which really separates the two tours.

The article is not about aberrations and anomalies of outstanding performances.  Its about OVERALL performance of players who have played 40 un-co-sanctioned events on both tours since 2010.  It does not include a player like Rickie Fowler who has played 6 un-co-sanctioned Euro Tournaments and won two of them (Abu Dhabi and Scottish) while playing about 140 un-co-sanctioned PGATour events while winning 3 total tournaments.

It includes all rounds, not just the good ones that Sergio and Henrik have shot, but also the 75's and 76's that littler everyone's resume on both tours..  And this analysis does not focus on Europeans, it focuses on the European Tour and the players that have played a REPRESENTATIVE sample  (40 rounds) on both tours.  Like SAFfers Ernie, Oosty, and Schwartzel.

Who cares about any other position than 1st? There are no prizes for coming anything but 1st, so it's really all that matters.

super_realist wrote:Who cares about any other position than 1st? There are no prizes for coming anything but 1st, so it's really all that matters.

Whoooosh. The article does. Did you even read it? The article is about the depthness of the respective tours.

For what it's worth I don't think the likes of Chappell and Swafford
are comparable to Duke and Kelly ...I think they will be a level or two above Duke and Kelly

Jerry Kelly has had a pretty good career, especially for a bloke who went to College to play ice hockey. A Pres Cup, three wins and almost $29M in the bank. Not having the best time of it this week though.

A big week for Harrington, sirb; got himself started, has to take advantage.

GPB wrote:

super_realist wrote:Who cares about any other position than 1st? There are no prizes for coming anything but 1st, so it's really all that matters.

Whoooosh.  The article does.  Did you even read it?  The article is about the depthness of the respective tours.

DEPTHNESS? I know you lot bastardise the English language but that's not even a word.

No I didn't read the article, because I don't care how many 2nd's, 4th's or 56th's someone has, I care about how much someone wins.

Do players who withdraw with a few holes to go and know they are going to miss a cut have to give a reason?

I believe when you are in a round and you withdraw, you have to provide a medical reason; once you have completed a round, there is no reason required. I stand to be corrected. Then I will sit down.

9 over for Matsuyama, didn't see that on the cards.

super_realist wrote:

GPB wrote:

super_realist wrote:Who cares about any other position than 1st? There are no prizes for coming anything but 1st, so it's really all that matters.

Whoooosh.  The article does.  Did you even read it?  The article is about the depthness of the respective tours.

DEPTHNESS? I know you lot bastardise the English language but that's not even a word.

No I didn't read the article, because I don't care how many 2nd's, 4th's or 56th's someone has, I care about how much someone wins.

Hello Strawman. If you want to discuss grammar and spelling might I suggest "remove-the-stick-from-your-ar$e dot com"

If you want to analyse wins....its pretty simple look here

http://www.pgatour.com/stats/stat.300.html

I can't even find a comparable Ranking for the Euro Tour

closest is this ranking

http://www.europeantour.com/europeantour/news/newsid=176339.html

Kind of dry reading if you ask me and doesn't change much.


Of course you didn't read the article, I could have predicted that. Because you knew that it wasn't going to say what you wanted to say. Fringe fans are the ones that do not peel layers from the outside of the onion.

To Fringe fans, winning a tournament is Black/white discrete measurement. 1 player wins at each tournament. You probably think that the rest of the players stunk up the joint that week since they didn't win. I happened to think 2nd is better than 3rd, 3rd is better than 4th and 65th is better than a MISSED CUT. Fringe Fans like yourself obviously think that 2nd is equal to a Missed Cut.

I like to pull the layers back and look who performed well through the week.