England vs Italy

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28 players that have been kept.

Forwards (16): Jack Clifford (Harlequins), Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers), Charlie Ewels (Bath), Jamie George (Saracens), Teimana Harrison (Northampton Saints), Dylan Hartley (Northampton Saints), James Haskell (Wasps), Nathan Hughes (Wasps), Maro Itoje (Saracens), Joe Launchbury (Wasps), Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints), Joe Marler (Harlequins), Kyle Sinckler (Harlequins), Mako Vunipola (Saracens), Mike Williams (Leicester Tigers), Tom Wood (Northampton Saints)

Backs (12): Mike Brown (Harlequins), Danny Care (Harlequins), Elliot Daly (Wasps), Owen Farrell (Saracens), George Ford (Bath), Jonathan Joseph (Bath), Jonny May (Gloucester), Jack Nowell (Exeter Chiefs), Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs), Ben Te’o (Worcester Warriors), Anthony Watson (Bath), Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers)

Well done Italy for only losing by 21 points, what an achievement that is, this tournament should be about teams trying to win every match and not just trying to limit your losses.

No9 wrote:Good god there's some whinging go on here.

First, well done Italy. They worked out a tactic and implemented. It wasn't illegal, within the rules and its England's problem that they took ages to deal with it.

Well done England, you won in the end and that's what counts.

As for the whingers on here, grow up.... This is rugby not football. Cope with it. Calling for Italy to be replaced dye to their rugby quality is one thing, but because of their tactics today is pathetic.

....and Eddie Jonrs saying today wasn't rugby, needs to be taught how to shut up and be gracious in victory.... What a muppet...

Yeah you are right. We are still 3 from 3 and it could be much much worse. Just look west.....

TightHEAD wrote:It wasn't rugby.

People should ask for their money back, Italy are a sorry excuse for a rugby team.

No after game dinner, Italy should be driven stright to the airport and sent packing.

Hammersmith harrier wrote:Well done Italy for only losing by 21 points, what an achievement that is, this tournament should be about teams trying to win every match and not just trying to limit your losses.

Lol bang on the money unlike Farrells aim.

No9 wrote:Good god there's some whinging go on here.

First, well done Italy. They worked out a tactic and implemented. It wasn't illegal, within the rules and its England's problem that they took ages to deal with it.

Well done England, you won in the end and that's what counts.

As for the whingers on here, grow up.... This is rugby not football. Cope with it. Calling for Italy to be replaced dye to their rugby quality is one thing, but because of their tactics today is pathetic.

....and Eddie Jonrs saying today wasn't rugby, needs to be taught how to shut up and be gracious in victory.... What a muppet...

You are right in congratulationing Italy, but do you not see what these tactics could mean for the wider game.

Pretty much the only tactic is to drive up the middle. Now imagine two teams doing that, is that a match that would grow the game?

Oh and we've all disowned TH

TightHEAD wrote:

Hammersmith harrier wrote:Well done Italy for only losing by 21 points, what an achievement that is, this tournament should be about teams trying to win every match and not just trying to limit your losses.

Lol bang on the money unlike Farrells aim.

Italy also missed penalties, do don't think this really adds up..

That was a poor advert for our game.

Rubbish first half awful response to good tactics. Great second half great offloading for Nowell second. Bonus point well done.

TightHEAD wrote:That was a poor advert for our game.

True but we'd be saying a lot more if Italy had played like they did against Wales and Ireland and lost by 100 points. No one expected the score line today. So to be fair, they played on a poor referees interpretation and made a game of it. You have to do that when your totally outclassed.

How your words can come back to haunt you
Quote from Eddie "it's not rugby as we know it" Jones via the Daily Mail

Frankly, stage three of England’s quest to retain the championship and secure another Grand Slam will be devoid of tension and intrigue.
The hosts will win, with room to spare. Jones wants his side to ‘take Italy to the cleaners’ — as did the Irish when amassing 63 points in Rome a fortnight ago.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/article-4257506/Hartley-backs-Jones-demand-Italy-cleaners.html#ixzz4ZoWJrmln

Sorry couldn't resist this link too after googling Eddie's comment about the cleaners - appreciate it does come from an Irish website but....
https://www.sportsjoe.ie/rugby/complete-utter-arrogance-eddie-jones/112913

How can we sell that to a wider audience?

Farcical when even an international Captain is asking the ref about clarifying the rules.

No wonder people get turned off by our game when there is international coaches only concerned by how many points they lose by.

It wasn't a rugby game we just witness and the game itself has been cheated by Connor o Shea tactics

Italy are pretty dreadful. Its a measuement of where they are at that even after playier their joker and catching Engaland at a bad day at the office they still lost by 21 points. And this is considered a victory of sorts for them.

I dont particularly blame them for the tactics. But its a sorry state of affairs.

Morally England won that by 250+

lostinwales wrote:

kingelderfield wrote:If we click then I can see a very large score accruing, in fact a very very large score. 100 points maybe seem ridiculous but is a possibility.

IF if.

But if history is anything to go by we could just as easily end up with a grindingly boring and painful arm wrestle. One that we are never at any point in any danger of losing but one where we mess up most of the few scoring opportunities we make with the result that the scores will be low and close.

Well i got the scoring thing wrong - we were pretty sharp when we had the chance. But overall....

nathan wrote:

No9 wrote:Good god there's some whinging go on here.

First, well done Italy. They worked out a tactic and implemented. It wasn't illegal, within the rules and its England's problem that they took ages to deal with it.

Well done England, you won in the end and that's what counts.

As for the whingers on here, grow up.... This is rugby not football. Cope with it. Calling for Italy to be replaced dye to their rugby quality is one thing, but because of their tactics today is pathetic.

....and Eddie Jonrs saying today wasn't rugby, needs to be taught how to shut up and be gracious in victory.... What a muppet...

You are right in congratulationing Italy, but do you not see what these tactics could mean for the wider game.

Pretty much the only tactic is to drive up the middle. Now imagine two teams doing that, is that a match that would grow the game?

Oh and we've all disowned TH

Unless the laws are changed you have to adapt. The tactic does leave sides exposed behind and its up to the players on the field to adapt and punish that tactic. No this case it was England's fault for not dealing wit it quicker not the Italians for using the tactic.

Wales used a very similar tactic against France to take 2008 Grand Slam. Not moving forward to block passes, but nit commuting to the breakdown.

Game tactics change all the time, but to ask for rule changes just because the opposition deploys a tactic, a LEGAL one, that you don't like us pathetic.

Wish we (Wales) had done something new, instead we are facing a bleak period.

Hammersmith harrier wrote:Well done Italy for only losing by 21 points, what an achievement that is, this tournament should be about teams trying to win every match and not just trying to limit your losses.

So every team should be No2 in the world and if they aren't they should stand aside and let England score their 250+?

The reason the tactic won't last is because there are methods of making the team that does it pay. Then they have to choose which way they want to pay the price of their actions. So stop fretting people, it ain't going to catch on.

But I hope Ireland use it in the first half against Wales

poissonrouge wrote:How your words can come back to haunt you
Quote from Eddie "it's not rugby as we know it" Jones via the Daily Mail

Frankly, stage three of England’s quest to retain the championship and secure another Grand Slam will be devoid of tension and intrigue.
The hosts will win, with room to spare. Jones wants his side to ‘take Italy to the cleaners’ — as did the Irish when amassing 63 points in Rome a fortnight ago.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/article-4257506/Hartley-backs-Jones-demand-Italy-cleaners.html#ixzz4ZoWJrmln

Sorry couldn't resist this link too after googling Eddie's comment about the cleaners - appreciate it does come from an Irish website but....
https://www.sportsjoe.ie/rugby/complete-utter-arrogance-eddie-jones/112913

Are you trying to make a point? He said he wants england to take them to the cleaners? Not that they will?

SecretFly wrote:

Hammersmith harrier wrote:Well done Italy for only losing by 21 points, what an achievement that is, this tournament should be about teams trying to win every match and not just trying to limit your losses.

So every team should be No2 in the world and if they aren't they should stand aside and let England score their 250+?

But when you flummox a team, they can't adapt and make many more mistakes than usual and you lose by 21 it shows it's probably a pointless fixture.

The wrb have got to answer questions. The ref was complicit in Italy and their desperate tactics. So far no one has had the guts to question the ref. Fur is about to fly.

SecretFly wrote:The reason the tactic won't last is because there are methods of making the team that does it pay.  Then they have to choose which way they want to pay the price of their actions.  So stop fretting people, it ain't going to catch on.

But I hope Ireland use it in the first half against Wales

Go for it

Stop it TightHEAD - you're as frustrated as the rest of us English but two things:
1/ it was a huge compliment that Italy felt obliged to try something outrageous because they didn't dare play a 'normal' game; and
2/ England won by three clear scores, with a BP and are still the only unbeatens this 6N.

No amount of questioning Italy's legal tactics will invalidate them, although I agree with those who worry that such tactics will turn people away from  the game. Moral victories are worthless: all in the head, not the record books. The bad news is England got suckered today, big time, for a while. The good news is they worked it out, and won almost at a canter.

England were fairly rubbish themselves.

But I hope Ireland use it in the first half against Wales Wink

I hope Scotland use it - then maybe Eddie can follow through on his promise (taken from the Express website)

Eddie Jones wrote:"I don't want to be involved in games like that.

"I’d rather pick up my stumps, put them in my kit-bag and go home. I don't think it's smart.

"If that's rugby then I'm retiring.

Folk really need to stop blaming the Italians and the ref for England's inability to A: understand the rules of the game and B: adapt accordingly.

poissonrouge wrote:

But I hope Ireland use it in the first half against Wales Wink

I hope Scotland use it - then maybe Eddie can follow through on his promise (taken from the Express website)

Eddie Jones wrote:"I don't want to be involved in games like that.

"I’d rather pick up my stumps, put them in my kit-bag and go home. I don't think it's smart.

"If that's rugby then I'm retiring.

16 out of 16.

TightHEAD wrote:Connor o Shea should be investigated for match fixing, Italy had an open door in defence vs Ireland so that Ireland got a massive score yet against England they decide to kill the game.

Farce.

Italy have got you really rattled. You should be more annoyed that England were so easily confused and unable to think there way out of it.

tigertattie wrote:Folk really need to stop blaming the Italians and the ref for England's inability to A: understand the rules of the game and B: adapt accordingly.

Says a lot for Italy that we failed to adapt but still scored 6 tries and won by 21 points.

GeordieFalcon wrote:

lostinwales wrote:

As for England I see there are the usual shouts for May's head. All I can say is its hard to do anything if nobody (especially Brown) ever gives you the ball. It was a better type of game for Nowell as he forces himself onto games. May needs space to do his thing and any time the ball found a wing in space it was Daly - and he played well.

Agree totally. May played well as far as I am concerned.

I mentioned above Brown needs dropped, Move Daly to 15 and Nowell and may on the wing. Watson on the bench covering wing / 15

Well as an Irish fan, come March 18 I'd be a lot more concerned if England had Daly at 15, with Nowell and Watson on the wings. So please Eddie, leave Brown and May on your team

Eddie Jones is such a naughty naughty boy. He is trying to deflect the blame for England's incompetence onto Italy. Shame he couldnt just admit that tactically he failed to adapt.

No9 wrote:

nathan wrote:

No9 wrote:Good god there's some whinging go on here.

First, well done Italy. They worked out a tactic and implemented. It wasn't illegal, within the rules and its England's problem that they took ages to deal with it.

Well done England, you won in the end and that's what counts.

As for the whingers on here, grow up.... This is rugby not football. Cope with it. Calling for Italy to be replaced dye to their rugby quality is one thing, but because of their tactics today is pathetic.

....and Eddie Jonrs saying today wasn't rugby, needs to be taught how to shut up and be gracious in victory.... What a muppet...

You are right in congratulationing Italy, but do you not see what these tactics could mean for the wider game.

Pretty much the only tactic is to drive up the middle. Now imagine two teams doing that, is that a match that would grow the game?

Oh and we've all disowned TH

Unless the laws are changed you have to adapt. The tactic does leave sides exposed behind and its up to the players on the field to adapt and punish that tactic. No this case it was England's fault for not dealing wit it quicker not the Italians for using the tactic.

Wales used a very similar tactic against France to take 2008 Grand Slam. Not moving forward to block passes, but nit commuting to the breakdown.

Game tactics change all the time, but to ask for rule changes just because the opposition deploys a tactic, a LEGAL one, that you don't like us pathetic.

Wish we (Wales) had done something new, instead we are facing a bleak period.

They are Frak laws!

England didn't deal with it well, I'm not disputing that.

Why is it pathetic, we have law changes all the time to try and improve the game. Recent one being the scrums as they were spoiling the game.

I don't think we'll see anything change so long as this tactic doesn't become common

He did adapt guns...you not see the 2nd half

GunsGermsV2 wrote:Eddie Jones is such a naughty naughty boy. He is trying to deflect the blame for England's incompetence onto Italy. Shame he couldnt just admit that tactically he failed to adapt.

'He'?

He completely invalided the tactic after half time.

No 7&1/2 wrote:He did adapt guns...you not see the 2nd half

England were still struggling to adapt through the second half. Also there was not need for it to take that long to adapt anyway. Coaches are able to get a message onto the pitch. Jones just didnt know what to do.

tigertattie wrote:Folk really need to stop blaming the Italians and the ref for England's inability to A: understand the rules of the game and B: adapt accordingly.

Partially correct ... the ref has to take some blame as he regularly called tackle only when a ruck had actually been formed

poissonrouge wrote:

But I hope Ireland use it in the first half against Wales Wink

I hope Scotland use it - then maybe Eddie can follow through on his promise (taken from the Express website)

Eddie Jones wrote:"I don't want to be involved in games like that.

"I’d rather pick up my stumps, put them in my kit-bag and go home. I don't think it's smart.

"If that's rugby then I'm retiring.

So holding players back off the ball when the ball, and blocking coz you couldn't avoid him, gov ( ) and dragging players into the rucks.... that's all manly and in the interests of the game being played in the right way?

Go away out of that Eddie. You know and encourage tricks when they serve your best purposes... as do all coaches. If you claim otherwise then maybe it is time to retire.

Scottrf wrote:

GunsGermsV2 wrote:Eddie Jones is such a naughty naughty boy. He is trying to deflect the blame for England's incompetence onto Italy. Shame he couldnt just admit that tactically he failed to adapt.

'He'?

He completely invalided the tactic after half time.

So what's he complaining about? That his team couldn't think on their feet?

Scottrf wrote:

GunsGermsV2 wrote:Eddie Jones is such a naughty naughty boy. He is trying to deflect the blame for England's incompetence onto Italy. Shame he couldnt just admit that tactically he failed to adapt.

'He'?

He completely invalided the tactic after half time.

No he didnt. Italy were within 3 points of England with 10 minutes to go. It took at least 70 minutes for England to assert any dominance whatsoever. Tactically very poor.

I don't get why people are saying England didn't adapt. They clearly did after half time. They played the game quicker, kept the ball off the floor and and played a short passing game around the ruck. It took too long, but they won't be caught unawares by it again.

You watched a different 2nd half guns? We won quite comfortably. You a bit worried?

No 7&1/2 wrote:You watched a different 2nd half guns?  We won quite comfortably. You a bit worried?

What was the score on 68 minutes of the game? Think you must have missed the second half.

What was the score after 68 minutes in the Ireland v Italy game.

Not worried at all. England arent half the side they are with Billy V.

SecretFly wrote:

Scottrf wrote:

GunsGermsV2 wrote:Eddie Jones is such a naughty naughty boy. He is trying to deflect the blame for England's incompetence onto Italy. Shame he couldnt just admit that tactically he failed to adapt.

'He'?

He completely invalided the tactic after half time.

So what's he complaining about?  That his team couldn't think on their feet?

And that is the main issue the England fans should be concerned about. The team couldn't work out what to do, they had to wait till EJ to get out the crayons and draw the big picture for them.

31-5 2nd half ...

Cumbrian wrote:I don't get why people are saying England didn't adapt. They clearly did after half time. They played the game quicker, kept the ball off the floor and and played a short passing game around the ruck. It took too long, but they won't be caught unawares by it again.

No they didnt. It was a three point game after 68 minutes.

GunsGermsV2 wrote:

Cumbrian wrote:I don't get why people are saying England didn't adapt. They clearly did after half time. They played the game quicker, kept the ball off the floor and and played a short passing game around the ruck. It took too long, but they won't be caught unawares by it again.

No they didnt. It was a three point game after 68 minutes.

I thought Rugby was an 80 minute game but obviously not.

The ref was not consistent. Early on he shouted 'tackle' which was the signal to Italy to come round. Later he stopped shouting. Clearly he had been set up to shout tackle by Italy. The ref played a strong game for Italy in the first half.

No 7&1/2 wrote:You watched a different 2nd half guns?  We won quite comfortably. You a bit worried?

Even when Italy were ahead there was no point in that game where the end result was ever in any doubt whatsoever. The only questions were how and by how much.

England were never going to lose and Italy were never going to win... so it would have been nothing for Eddie to offer a humourous wink in the direction of Conor O'Shea and admit that the tactic had him on the ropes for a bit until he got his players in at half time.  That would be a better reaction.  But Eddie is Eddie.... salty to the end.  So be it, that's who works best for him.

We scored 2 tries in the first 10 minutes of the second half?

I don't think you can draw any conclusions from scores from other matches ... if Italy had played like they did against Ireland the scoreline today would have been completely different - that said I'd still say Ireland are favourites for the title ...