26th Feb 2017 Twickenham -RIP Italian Rugby

First topic message reminder :

A date that will be remembered as the day Italian rugby died.

Never have I witnessed such a farce allowed to play out at HQ.

Our game has been damaged today as how can we sell that to a wider audience?

If I was an Italian and my son said he wanted to take up rugby union with the dream of representing his Country I'd March them to the nearest football club and sign them up.

Surely to goodness England (and some of their fans) must be the only team in the world that can complain soooooo much about a game that they won and took maximum points from!

Smile for goodness sake. You're the only team still on for the slam

I think most of us are tigertattie!

Embarassed to a bonus point win.

A lot of teams would like to be embarassed if that's the case.

Surely to goodness England (and some of their fans) must be the only team in the world that can complain soooooo much about a game that they won and took maximum points from!

good point.
Well presented.
Lets see how much you lot whinge when the Italians won't stand up and get thrashed in a toe-to-toe face off.

The English lads did look a bit dope on a rope for the first half - who wouldn't?

Freaky Italians going all metaphysical - when's a ruck not a ruck - is this a spoon - there is no spoon.


I'd love to seen what the Irish lads would have done if O'Shea pulled this phekwittery on them.

Probably would have had a mass sit down mid park and threatened BREXIT.

Hammersmith harrier wrote:I am bemused by these failure to adapt comments when it turned into a very comfortable victory.

How was it comfortable? There was two points in the game until the 70 min mark and Italy fell apart

The bonus point win was a given. The England set up will not have been pleased by the performance or the scoreline. They will have wanted to match or better Irelands scoreline. Even Eddie Jones worst nightmares I dont think he would have envisaged a paltry 2 point lead with 20 mins left. It was a compliment of sorts that Italy opted to pull this stunt against England.

After 17 years of Italian involvement in the 6 Nations and the state of their 2 pro teams I have kind of lost sympthy for them and the negligible progress they are making. Replacing them with Georgia at the moment would be merely trading one whipping boy for another. However I do think Italy need to start justifying their inclusion by proving that they are worthier than Georgia and Rugby needs to start looking at the Georgia case and coming up with some suggestions. Italy seem to get a lot of goodwill and sympathy by virtue of being a more fashionable country and by extension fixture list than the Georgians. I suspect if the roles were reversed people would be happy to trade Tblisi for Rome and give the Georgians the boot.

TrailApe wrote:


I'd love to seen what the Irish lads would have done if O'Shea  pulled this phekwittery on them.

Hasn't it already been exposed on one of these threads that the Irish were in on it? Sure we gave O'Shea the ideas - we're the cheat specialists of the 6N.

If Italy had won today I wonder how many would be complaining, Italys biggest problem is their fitness if it was there today England would be complaining a hell of a lot more though there'd be no mention of getting rid of Italy

marty2086 wrote:

Hammersmith harrier wrote:I am bemused by these failure to adapt comments when it turned into a very comfortable victory.

How was it comfortable? There was two points in the game until the 70 min mark and Italy fell apart

Was there a danger of the game only lasting 70 minutes then?

TrailApe wrote:

I'd love to seen what the Irish lads would have done if O'Shea  pulled this phekwittery on them.

Probably would have had a mass sit down mid park and threatened BREXIT.

The Aussies pulled it in November, the Irish are able to say well played though, seems it doesnt come so easy to some

Scottrf wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

Hammersmith harrier wrote:I am bemused by these failure to adapt comments when it turned into a very comfortable victory.

How was it comfortable? There was two points in the game until the 70 min mark and Italy fell apart

Was there a danger of the game only lasting 70 minutes then?

I was hoping it would end after the first half....

marty2086 wrote:

TrailApe wrote:

I'd love to seen what the Irish lads would have done if O'Shea  pulled this phekwittery on them.

Probably would have had a mass sit down mid park and threatened BREXIT.

The Aussies pulled it in November, the Irish are able to say well played though, seems it doesnt come so easy to some

Oh yeah. Keep forgetting that. So we would have been up to speed on the drill required to nullify it.

Scottrf wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

Hammersmith harrier wrote:I am bemused by these failure to adapt comments when it turned into a very comfortable victory.

How was it comfortable? There was two points in the game until the 70 min mark and Italy fell apart

Was there a danger of the game only lasting 70 minutes then?

Sorry that doesnt make much sense

If the game was comfortable England wouldnt be complaining constantly and panicking until near the end of the game when the other teams out on their feet and allowing you to walk tries in

SecretFly wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

TrailApe wrote:

I'd love to seen what the Irish lads would have done if O'Shea  pulled this phekwittery on them.

Probably would have had a mass sit down mid park and threatened BREXIT.

The Aussies pulled it in November, the Irish are able to say well played though, seems it doesnt come so easy to some

Oh yeah.  Keep forgetting that.  So we would have been up to speed on the drill required to nullify it.

After two attempts Ireland were up to speed on it and able to deal with it and not remember them having to ask the ref for guidance on it either

Another game that England didn't win but the other team 'allowed' them to score tries then, and lucky again that the ref didn't blow the whistle after 70 minutes. Like the Wales game.

TrailApe wrote:

Surely to goodness England (and some of their fans) must be the only team in the world that can complain soooooo much about a game that they won and took maximum points from!

good point.
Well presented.
Lets see how much you lot whinge when the Italians won't stand up and get thrashed in a toe-to-toe face off.

The English lads did look a bit dope on a rope for the first half - who wouldn't?

Freaky Italians going all metaphysical - when's a ruck not a ruck - is this a spoon - there is no spoon.


I'd love to seen what the Irish lads would have done if O'Shea  pulled this phekwittery on them.

Probably would have had a mass sit down mid park and threatened BREXIT.

The Aussie's did it once against Ireland, and knew they wouldn't get away with it a second time.

The English were like a giant moron blubbering because he couldn't figure out how to stop the evil midget from repeatedly kicking him in the nuts.

It certainly couldnt be described as a comfortable win for England. They spent the majority of the game most uncomfortable. A few late tries put some gloss on the scoreboard but it wasnt a comfortable win.

Italys problem is not their fitness. Its that after 17 years in the top tier a 21 point loss is considered a great result and that playing "conventional" rugby they anticipate losing by 60 plus points.

Who mentioned Wales, just seems you are a little prickly about things as noone said anything was allowed

Italy were pretty poor today in many areas, they had a fly half whose kicking was awful, their scrum was pretty poor and a hooker who was pretty awful at the lineout

Some Italian forwards were falling off tackles early in the second half but they rallied and made a comeback and then more started missing tackles late on and thats when England ran in 3 tries

Everybody knows Italy fade late on, they exploit it, England did today and fair play to them but to say it was comfortable is just stupid as England were far from comfortable all game and the late tries put a gloss on it all

catchweight wrote:It certainly couldnt be described as a comfortable win for England. They spent the majority of the game most uncomfortable. A few late tries put some gloss on the scoreboard but it wasnt a comfortable win.

Italys problem is not their fitness. Its that after 17 years in the top tier a 21 point loss is considered a great result and that playing "conventional" rugby they anticipate losing by 60 plus points.

Noone said it was a great result but there was areas of their performance that were good

Italys fitness is a big problem as many of the players especially in Italy are only recently getting S&C training, its the same in the Pro12

Italy in many areas were awful yet they were still on par with England until late on

"Noone said anything was allowed" "allowing you to walk tries in"

You know we can scroll back up right?

Its late on a Sunday night and your child like complaining made me forget my phrasing

Change allowed to gifted opportunities, hows that for you precious?

catchweight wrote: a 21 point loss is considered a great result and that playing "conventional" rugby they anticipate losing by 60 plus points.

That's now good England are. Take it as a compliment. The Italians didn't want to be thrashed. It's natural. You think Georgia would have even tried the trick? At least give Italy the credit for having some 6N smarts.

How many people have been drinking today?

I'm stone cold sober, as usual .....

...but it sounds like one of those parties with loud music where people are shouting stuff into each other's ears and not exactly understanding each other.

Time for a chill music interlude.

Plenty of people are saying it was a great result. Not least Conor O'Shea.

Fitness is a bit of a cliche for Italys problems. They are pretty crap and their hopes are pinned on other teams having a pretty crap day out for them to be in with a shout. England were poor today, and thoroughly flummoxed by the curveball the Italians threw in the first half. Wales were rotten against them in the first half they played in Rome also. Italy still lost both games by over 20 points.

O'Shea is a good coach and he has a good team but its all well worn cliches at this stage about changing the mindset, playing for 80minutes and not making up the numbers etc. The reality is they just are not good enough and after 17 years it doesnt look like they ever will be.

If it was fitness you'd have to ask why a professional international sports team can't get fit enough to compete. Surely easier than getting skilful enough to compete.

can understand why irish fans are noisy.

if they try this, it wont work now italy have done it.

It's not a cliché though.  The kinds of programs in conditioning that England for example would engage in at their International camps but also back home at their clubs would be a level above that in Italy. (Look at the scientific precision England bring to their cycling program.)  
Now add the conditioning levels then to what is asked of players in training as regard strategy and defensive shape etc etc - well, it's easier to be where you are meant to be if you have the lungs and legs to be there...successively, through 80 minutes.  Italy lack everything - skillsets, player numbers, the conditioning that can cope with International (series of games). That's in part because they haven't advanced but also because they've been caught out by a further spurt by the higher ranked teams. They do catch up but get caught out when the bigger boys go one step higher.

England are on another planet in terms of stamina and pace through the ranks.  And England haven't always been so either but know they have to be to challenge NZ for Number 1 spot.  You can't fake it.  You either have the tools to fight at the top level or you don't.  The ability to go longer at tempo also means you have oxygen going to the brain as well as the legs, keeping the mind and the body quick and resourceful.

No, Italy simply aren't there.  Scotland are getting there.  I even feel we struggle to keep there.  It's a constant battle.

quinsforever wrote:can understand why irish fans are noisy.

if they try this, it wont work now italy have done it.

Wouldn't put it past Eddie to use it a few times...for the fun. I'll tell Joe not to be fooled by Eddie's words.

For once I'm glad this forum now has a down vote option.
Embarrassing from OP (are you Matt Dawson in disguise?)

The land of the Trolls.

England haven't actually put a performance together so far and yet are 3 from 3.

While all the other nations have lost 1 or more games.

Shame Ireland lost their game to Scotland as that would have really made for a game in Dublin.

Has the Dublin game been called off?

This is going too far!  Eddie refusing to play the last game and demanding the cup to be given to him after the Scottish game?  Unprecedented effrontery!  Does this foreigner not know the honourable code of the 6N?  He doth mock us!

SecretFly wrote:Has the Dublin game been called off?

This is going too far!  Eddie refusing to play the last game and demanding the cup to be given to him after the Scottish game?  Unprecedented effrontery!  Does this foreigner not know the honourable code of the 6N?  He doth mock us!

You're talking bs

I am?

Now there's a revelation

quinsforever wrote:can understand why irish fans are noisy.

if they try this, it wont work now italy have done it.

Or maybe Jonesy is put out because this is what he had lined up for Dublin and Conor O'Shea has put a spanner in the works

Doubt Ireland will try anything to innovative, as it will work against them when they start falling on the ground laughing at the puzzled looks on the Kiwi, Australian, Samoan, Fijan and English faces

marty2086 wrote:

Scottrf wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

Hammersmith harrier wrote:I am bemused by these failure to adapt comments when it turned into a very comfortable victory.

How was it comfortable? There was two points in the game until the 70 min mark and Italy fell apart

Was there a danger of the game only lasting 70 minutes then?

Sorry that doesnt make much sense

If the game was comfortable England wouldnt be complaining constantly and panicking until near the end of the game when the other teams out on their feet and allowing you to walk tries in

I'm starting to struggle to take anything you say seriously.

The result was never in doubt and the score at 70 minutes is irrelevant it's an 80 minute game.

As usual the headlines and rhetoric is fun, but probably not all that close to the truth.

I'm not sure how anyone could say this tactic worked, even for the first half. It was a try a piece with both sides missing kicks (in fact Italy's try coming from a missed kick). If anything, because of this tactic people are missing what actually went well for Italy/badly for England. I thought Italy had the upper hand in the scrum and England were poorly disciplined at defensive breakdowns. As for the second half, Italy never really looked like scoring (save for a marvelous individual effort from Campangaro). So did it work? Looked very much like damage limitation to me, and they didn't get a losing bonus point.

As for the "clueless England" rhetoric, ITV might well have picked 3 clips to constantly replay, but actually a few players had lots of dialogue with Poite during stoppages and the questions they were asking I thought seemed pretty fair. They weren't asking him to explain the rules, it was his interpretation they had problems with. They thought they were creating a ruck (which on more than one occasion I agree with) but Poite was very lenient in letting Italy interfere with the contact area then back off (probably because he had been told before the game how Italy would play so that was his default position). To be fair, after 20 mins I was screaming at the tele to pick and go, so it's fair to say England should have adapted quicker. Then again, I was sat on my sofa, not in a test match arena having had a game plan coached into me for the last 2 weeks.

Overall, fair play to Italy. It was within the rules, and they were innovative. And now I hope the rules are changed. I liken to this to the choke tackle. Innovative, within the rules, but it's bloody horrible. Get rid of it.

Hammersmith harrier wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

Scottrf wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

Hammersmith harrier wrote:I am bemused by these failure to adapt comments when it turned into a very comfortable victory.

How was it comfortable? There was two points in the game until the 70 min mark and Italy fell apart

Was there a danger of the game only lasting 70 minutes then?

Sorry that doesnt make much sense

If the game was comfortable England wouldnt be complaining constantly and panicking until near the end of the game when the other teams out on their feet and allowing you to walk tries in

I'm starting to struggle to take anything you say seriously.

The result was never in doubt and the score at 70 minutes is irrelevant it's an 80 minute game.

Its relevant when you say stupid things like it was a comfortable victory, those that are comfortable dont spend 40 mins asking the ref to tell them what to do, they dont come out after the game moaning about it isnt rugby because they were made to look stupid and a comfortable win doesnt rely on two late tries to make themselves look comfortable on paper

It was a comfortable victory.

marty2086 wrote:
I'm starting to struggle to take anything you say seriously.

The result was never in doubt and the score at 70 minutes is irrelevant it's an 80 minute game.

Its relevant when you say stupid things like it was a comfortable victory, those that are comfortable dont spend 40 mins asking the ref to tell them what to do, they dont come out after the game moaning about it isnt rugby because they were made to look stupid and a comfortable win doesnt rely on two late tries to make themselves look comfortable on paper[/quote]

Being Irish you'd know all about moaning, it seems it's all you ever do.

Whether you like it or not and frankly I couldn't give a toss what you think but it was a comfortable victory.

It was a really comfortable victory as soon as players had their brains switched on at half time. It would have been even more comfortable if just one of your monstrous ball carriers picked up the ball and charged through the "non ruck tackle area".

I think England and Jones will be frustrated by their inability to adapt on the fly and that seemed to come out at the post match interviews.

It was a comfortable win but with so many senior players noone seemed to be thinking. I think the lack of Robshaw or Kruis was key, I reckon either of those 2 would have figured out how to counter that tactic and Italy would have started to come apart in the first half.

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:
I think England and Jones will be frustrated by their inability to adapt on the fly and that seemed to come out at the post match interviews.

Don't think that's fair. England DID adapt on the fly, or at least try to.

They recognised what was happening and tried to force contact at the breakdown area to create rucks. Now imagine this had worked? (as it has done when other teams have employed Italy's tactic). Italy's plans would have been in disarray, they would have been conceding offside penalties left right and centre, or would have been giving England lightning fast ball for their backs. Such would have been the pandemonium they would have probably had to abandon the tactic at half time and use a different gameplan to that which they trained for. England were frustrated at the ref, not the rules. They thought he was being inconsistent.

When that didn't work they wen't back to pick and go. Now personally I wanted them to do that sooner, but I understand why they tried what they tried. I don't think it's accurate to say they didn't try to adapt.

Hammersmith harrier wrote:

marty2086 wrote:
I'm starting to struggle to take anything you say seriously.

The result was never in doubt and the score at 70 minutes is irrelevant it's an 80 minute game.

Its relevant when you say stupid things like it was a comfortable victory, those that are comfortable dont spend 40 mins asking the ref to tell them what to do, they dont come out after the game moaning about it isnt rugby because they were made to look stupid and a comfortable win doesnt rely on two late tries to make themselves look comfortable on paper

Being Irish you'd know all about moaning, it seems it's all you ever do.

Whether you like it or not and frankly I couldn't give a toss what you think but it was a comfortable victory.[/quote]

Ironic given that you are the one moaning and trying to make a struggle against a team that apparently has no right being in the tournament seem like it wasn't all that difficult

You have your quotes the wrong way round there marty. We're you genuinely surprised at 80 min to see that score? England blew them away in the 2nd half.

Fans of a team who lost to Scotland taunting us for taking longer than expected to get a bonus point win. Yeah okay.

cascough wrote:

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:
I think England and Jones will be frustrated by their inability to adapt on the fly and that seemed to come out at the post match interviews.

Don't think that's fair. England DID adapt on the fly, or at least try to.

They recognised what was happening and tried to force contact at the breakdown area to create rucks. Now imagine this had worked? (as it has done when other teams have employed Italy's tactic). Italy's plans would have been in disarray, they would have been conceding offside penalties left right and centre, or would have been giving England lightning fast ball for their backs. Such would have been the pandemonium they would have probably had to abandon the tactic at half time and use a different gameplan to that which they trained for. England were frustrated at the ref, not the rules. They thought he was being inconsistent.

When that didn't work they wen't back to pick and go. Now personally I wanted them to do that sooner, but I understand why they tried what they tried. I don't think it's accurate to say they didn't try to adapt.

They didn't adapt on the fly though, they tried that once to be told dragging someone into the tackle isn't a ruck

Adapting on the fly would have been avoiding the whole thing and just playing but they kept doing the same thing and not doing what to do with what resulted

Scottrf wrote:Fans of a team who lost to Scotland taunting us for taking longer than expected to get a bonus point win. Yeah okay.

Come back to us in a few weeks

Scottrf wrote:Fans of a team who lost to Scotland taunting us for taking longer than expected to get a bonus point win. Yeah okay.

England have to play Scotland yet

Munchkin wrote:

Scottrf wrote:Fans of a team who lost to Scotland taunting us for taking longer than expected to get a bonus point win. Yeah okay.

England have to play Scotland yet  

And I think it will be a tough game.

No 7&1/2 wrote:You have your quotes the wrong way round there marty. We're you genuinely surprised at 80 min to see that score? England blew them away in the 2nd half.

No that wasn't me check again

They didn't blow them away in the second half though they did it in the last few mins

Yeah it was you. You've somehow switched your quote with hammers above at 9.06.

They really did. Change in tactics. Offloads straight through the tackle areas. Really easy.