England are the Greatest and Eddie is the Messiah

First topic message reminder :

Bow down peasants.

Jones was annoyed because he was outwitted. Made to look like a fool.

England didn't in my opinion play badly because of the Italian tactics, I think England just have too many players in poor form. Jones has retained too many of these players.

Now he's almost forced himself to pick these same players vs Scotland and Ireland.

So you don't think the tactics changed at half time. All down to the subs again.

Yes tactics changed.

No it wasn't all down to the subs but the subs yet again did a good job.

I wouldn't say it was Hartley who took charge in the 2nd half either. Launchbury,Lawes and Itoje were the most effective English forwards in the match IMO.

Care had a poor 1st 40 IMO but his usual quick tap was effective and helped boost morale. Italy should have been prepared.

I agree. Jones tactical change allowed England back into the game and onto a good win in the end.

I don't think Jones telepathically told Care to quick tap... we know it's normal for Care to do it.

I suppose you could call putting a 6 on the back of a player, but playing them in second row - against the spirit of the game

Or Launchberry catching the re-start and standing still creating a platform with players around him against the spirit of the game

Or a coach saying he wants to smash a team before the game against the spirit of the game


none of them are, and neither was the Italy tactic. Jones is just annoyed he and his team were outsmarted in the first half and they could not adapt fast enough

They were always going to win it and once they worked out with all the Italians behind them, there were less likely to be any in front of them, they made it quite easy

I think the disrespect of the comments IS against the spirit of the game


PS - As a neutral I did not find it a boring game - I thought it was better than a lot of slug fests and scrum resets (and more entertaining that the Ireland Vs France match)

But what do I know - I was a little drunk :-0

beshocked wrote:I don't think Jones telepathically told Care to quick tap... we know it's normal for Care to do it.

In which case he should have been looking to do that kind of thing in the first half, when instead he was trying to fit the Jones template for a 9 of quick to the ruck (or non ruck ) and move the ball quickly. The Italian tactics were ready made for Care to run the ball, but it was only after half time that he did it. Coincidence or instruction - we will never know.

Care did actually try to quick tap a few times, just Poite wouldn't let him.

Riskysports you are right, Jones was annoyed for being outwitted. Plus I think he was frustated because he didn't really learn anything new.

So you've said that the tactics weren't the reason for the poor performance but the starting players. So Jones was outwitted due to not starting George , Mako and Nowell. Or are you saying that COS did outthink Jones with tactics?

It's a mix no 7 & 1/2. Are you seriously going to tell me the bench didn't make a big impact?

The Italian pack was going backpeddling with Mako and George on.

No I don't think it was just the Italian tactics were the reason for the poor performance, I think the poor form of certain players is the reason England in general have looked lackluster. I think the poor leadership is also why we've looked rudderless at times.

Just trying to get to bottom of your remarks. You said jones was outwitted but that the performance was not due to tactics but selection.

I'm quite surprised you feel Hartley is a bad captain as well tbf. But then you'd want Haskell so I assume you don't think captaincy impacts that much.

poissonrouge wrote:I note the same tactic was employed by Pocock against Ireland last autumn. I presume the Australians don't play rugby either?

England did it recently, I think against Wales? Hughes ran around the tackle and stood between Webb and the rest of the Welsh players. Webb bizarrely passed the ball straight to him (presumably assuming he would get the offside penalty).

My point was the bad performance wasn't solely down to tactics, of course the tactics had some impact but weren't the only reason.

If you take Hartley's tenure as captain as a whole, he's been good, he's done well. Leadership wise, he's not been sin binned or sent off.

If you look at the first 3 games of this 6 nations though his leadership has been poor.

Form wise though he's not been particularly good as a whole either. His set piece in general has been solid but unspectacular. The scrum with him in it has done okay but is superior with George on. George has performed better in the lineout this year and is generally just as reliable as Hartley.

I believe that captain should be a) playing well b) clear first choice in their position

Hartley fits neither of these criteria at the moment and hasn't for some time.

The one thing he brought to the table was his leadership and so far in the 6 nations he hasn't done that.



I find it alarming when Jones says Hartley is the first name on the team sheet despite him yet again not playing well. The more times Hartley fails to perform, the calls for George to start grow louder.

Now I of course understand why Jones is sticking with Hartley -he's the captain etc but eventually even Jones has to realise that start George might add more value and strength to the team.

Everyone sees that George will start for England shortly. I think the difference of opinion comes from the fact Hartley is actually playing well also. It'll be George to start in the AI s injury permitting etc.

Really? You seriously think Hartley is playing well? Wow...just wow.... You come up with some questionable comments but that's one of the worst..... calling it fact too...

I am happy to give credit where it's due, but come on....

I don't think that's a controversial statement at all.

Hartley has had two average games and one poor one. On form he may not even make the Lions squad and that would be hard for a hooker as there is usually 4 on tour.

There's only a couple of English men going on the Lions anyway guns. They keep getting outplayed by the guys they are beating.

No 7&1/2 wrote:There's only a couple of English men going on the Lions anyway guns.  They keep getting outplayed by the guys they are beating.

England will have more tourists than anyone else guaranteed. Hartley will be selected unless he calls Wayne Barnes a c%&^ or something but his form is poor.

No 7&1/2 wrote:I don't think that's a controversial statement at all.

Saying Hartley is playing well is very controversial.

It's like saying Farrell and Hughes played well vs Italy....

If I was giving Hartley marks out of 10 I'd say

5/10
5/10
4/10

Not every player has been bad.

Launchbury,Lawes and Daly have have good tournaments so far IMO.

Itoje seems to be growing into the role and had his best game vs Italy.

Marler has been solid.

The bench of course have been very good.

Nowell has been good.

That's complete crap beshocked and you know it, Hartley has been solid and done exactly what Jones wants from him.

Hammersmith harrier

If you mean lethargic then yes he's done what Jones wants from him.

The scrum has creaked but just about held parity with him on the pitch, he's lost 1 lineout in each game (not too bad but then again George has been flawless).

He's looked pretty sluggish though and hasn't done much around the park.

Leadership hasn't been great.

Also in the first two games, Hartley was joint top of most missed tackles in the 6 nations.

George hasn't been world class off the bench but he's been clearly superior - 7/10 each game IMO.

When you are getting a 2 point difference in each game... well....

No 7&1/2 wrote:There's only a couple of English men going on the Lions anyway guns.  They keep getting outplayed by the guys they are beating.

At first this was annoying. But then I remembered we copped for the same flak last year. Once I chilled out about it I'm finding it quite amusing now.

Do you even believe half of what you type?

Jamie George doesn't come on and improve the scrum, he comes on when the opposition are either tiring or have their subs on instead, you know that as well as me but it doesn't suit your narrative.

When you're not starting it says it all really doesn't it.

I think there's a phenomena where players are rated compared to how they're expected to perform rather then their performances being judged in isolation.

Hammersmith Harrier of course I believe what I type.


yes of course that's the same old excuse.... he comes on when everyone is tired....

Is that why George has help turned Saracens into one of the strongest scrums in Europe? You think it's Mako whose done that? Do you think Mako is a monstrous scrummager? No of course not.

I obviously notice the difference with Brits vs George. George is one of the best scrummaging hookers.

It's not just the scrum improving slightly. The Italians were backpeddling.

Yes of course not starting says it all....  it's not as if Jones wants to continue picking his captain because he's the captain.....


5/10 performance is good enough for plenty it seems.....

Hammersmith harrier wrote:That's complete crap beshocked and you know it, Hartley has been solid and done exactly what Jones wants from him.

Nope has been poor as has Cole

Kept on the team as a leader

Other forwards have kept England on top - Itoje, Launchberry, Lawes in particular
Plus an excellent bench particularly Vunipola, Sinklar (sp?) and George

geoff999rugby wrote:

Hammersmith harrier wrote:That's complete crap beshocked and you know it, Hartley has been solid and done exactly what Jones wants from him.

Nope has been poor as has Cole

Kept on the team as a leader

Other forwards have kept England on top - Itoje, Launchberry, Lawes in particular
Plus an excellent bench particularly Vunipola, Sinklar (sp?) and George

Thank you Geoff.

Cole had a poor game vs Italy too but it's quite risky to play Sinckler vs Scotland, he should have been given a start vs Italy.

Exactly Hartley is picked for his leadership. I can understand the logic but Jones is pushing himself into a corner.

I agree. Those guys have all been good.

geoff999rugby wrote:

Hammersmith harrier wrote:That's complete crap beshocked and you know it, Hartley has been solid and done exactly what Jones wants from him.

Nope has been poor as has Cole

Kept on the team as a leader

Other forwards have kept England on top - Itoje, Launchberry, Lawes in particular
Plus an excellent bench particularly Vunipola, Sinklar (sp?) and George

Joe Marler must be an absolute machine then considering we've lost maybe one scrum on our own ball.

Mako has been excellent during that single appearance off the bench.

Can we just a separate thread for beshocked to bang on about Hartley instead of everything England thread being the same tired old arguments.

Talking about 3 games as a whole.

Plus in open play Cole has been badly exposed.

The game is moving on - carthorses like Cole don't cut it anymore.
Also gives away too many penalties

Geoff the problem England have is that certain positions like 8, 15 and 3 England have shown a lack of strength in depth and have been exposed as a result.

Brown and Cole have been starters for so long and no challengers that they are retained regardless of form.

Billy is injured and Hughes just hasn't stepped up. Huge shoes to fill admittedly but he's struggled.

England have very healthy depth in the 2nd row in contrast hence why Itoje is playing 6 to make up the relative weakness in the backrow.

England still have weaknesses that Jones still hasn't really made efforts to fix.

He's even dropped Joseph who at one time was pretty secure at 13 to try out an experiment.

I don't think Teo did too badly but was 13 really the thing that needed fixing the most?

I am not convinced.

Lets's be clear - Italy are terrible, really poor, as bad as they've been for years and years.

England are justifiably ranked 2nd in the world and should have trashed Italy. They still won easily, but the tactic Italy adopted is not new and should have be addressed in seconds not an hour. We've all know for years that Haskell is a sandwich short of a picnic !

Jones was frustrated (very) and should have shown a bit more grace after the match. He was outwitted and didn't like it.

England is still a very good team getting better and I expect them to beat Scotland to set up a cracker in Dublin.

offload wrote: We've all know for years that Haskell is a sandwich short of a picnic !

Nope. He knew the law better than Poite.

Scottrf wrote:

offload wrote: We've all know for years that Haskell is a sandwich short of a picnic !

Nope. He knew the law better than Poite.

Ha, now that is funny.

He quite clearly did.

It's not nice to be labeled a slow learner, but admitting you need extra help is part of growing up.

Scottrf wrote:

offload wrote: We've all know for years that Haskell is a sandwich short of a picnic !

Nope. He knew the law better than Poite.

That's very unlikely. Contender for thickest player in international rugby now that Andy Powell, Craig Gower and Cory Jane aren't around any more.

He gets mentioned a lot here:

https://www.606v2.com/t37557p100-thickest-rugby-player

offload wrote:Lets's be clear - Italy are terrible, really poor, as bad as they've been for years and years.

England are justifiably ranked 2nd in the world and should have trashed Italy.  They still won easily, but the tactic Italy adopted is not new and should have be addressed in seconds not an hour.  We've all know for years that Haskell is a sandwich short of a picnic !

Jones was frustrated (very) and should have shown a bit more grace after the match.  He was outwitted and didn't like it.  

England is still a very good team getting better and I expect them to beat Scotland to set up a cracker in Dublin.

Pretty much exactly how I see it too.

GunsGermsV2 wrote:

Scottrf wrote:

offload wrote: We've all know for years that Haskell is a sandwich short of a picnic !

Nope. He knew the law better than Poite.

That's very unlikely. Contender for thickest player in international rugby now that Andy Powell, Craig Gower and Cory Jane aren't around any more.

He gets mentioned a lot here:

https://www.606v2.com/t37557p100-thickest-rugby-player

Na he knew that he just had to pull a player close to the tackle. Don't think Poite did.

I think Haskell might have encountered it when he played against the Chiefs in super rugby.

GunsGermsV2 wrote:I think Haskell might have encountered it when he played against the Chiefs in super rugby.

When Wasps played Claremont

Just read an article from the Daily Telegraph (Australian version). Seems that Eddie's rant that it "isn't rugby" is a bit hypocritical coming from someone on the English coaching side. I quote from the article (link given at the end)

Ben Ryan, who as England sevens coach pioneered the ‘no-ruck’ ploy in the abbreviated form of the game back in 2012, said he’d been stunned by Jones’s fury.

“I am flabbergasted with Eddie Jones’s reaction to it. It is called coaching, Eddie,” Ryan, who guided Fiji to Olympic Sevens gold in Rio last year, told The Times.

“He is being quite rude to people, fellow coaches who outmanoeuvred him. Good on Italy. We haven’t seen England doing anything different at all.”

So it was invented by an English coach!

Link to article

Even more reason why an Aussie coach hated it....

This thread diminshed since the mods renamed it and deleted the link and posts.

F*ck off Eddie.

"Italy tactic wasn't rugby, says England coach Eddie Jones"
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/39096603

Good to see we've turned Ben Ryan against the English already! He's only been with us a short time!!!