The Lions WUM Swamp of Madness No Holds Barred Shootout Thread

[No9]

First topic message reminder :

1) Hartley - Not a chance. Playing like a Muppet, being sub'd each game, because he's not up to it. As it stands, unlikely to go on the tour, never the less be Capt.

2) Alun Wyn - Blown it. Was the first choice (IMO). Set up for him, with Warbs standing down as Welsh Capt, but AWJ loathing of being interviewed and the appalling Welsh team performance has ruined his chance of Lions Capt. The nail in the coffin being his comment this week, that he wanted to kick the penalties but Biggar and Halfpenny didn't want to..... WTF... WHO'S CAPT!!!

3) Laidlaw - Not sure of a starting place as Lions 9, and with injuries, will he be ready for the tour.


which, IMO has pushes Rory Best into the pole position for Lions Capt. With the exception of Brown, he's been the on form hooker this 6 Nations, and as Gats has already stated he would like the Lions capt to also captain his country, Best is now the first choice.

... But Warbs is a good outsider, has he's been there, works well with Gats and has the professional attitude needed. He handles the media well and is starting to show return in his form.

Thoughts...

[BamBam]

POM

Ah that makes sense .. I probably just saw him captaining plenty while POM was injured and assumed he was the regular captain!

[rodders]

POM

Is that the fella that carries CJ's kit bag?

[SecretFly]

POM

Ah that makes sense .. I probably just saw him captaining plenty while POM was injured and assumed he was the regular captain!

CJ certainly has Captaincy credentials. He likes controlling things and talking. Great 'leading by example' character. But maybe he might get lost in the forwarding department, an area he obviously loves. "Flyhalf? What flyhalf? We have a Flyhalf?"
No, CJ is grand.

[SecretFly]

POM

Is that the fella that carries CJ's kit bag?

CJ doesn't have a kit bag. Wears his Munster kit to bed and only puts the Irish kit on over it when he plays for all of us. Basterde obsessionist!

[doctor_grey]

I think Hartley could devour the ABs mentally, emotionally, and psychically. It's all about the power of the mind...........

[SecretFly]

Well let's not be all cannibalistic about it...it's only a game after all.

[majesticimperialman]

NZ must be licking their lips after this 6 Nations. Best throwing like a drunken loon against Scotland, Warbs stepping down, AWJ being scared by Biggar, Farrell kicking with his boots on the wrong foot, Heaslip awful against Scotland, Russell throwing no-look passes for the camera, Irish citings, England players having trouble with rucking. If only Picamoles was British.

Quite selective in the use of the facts.

Isn't it. Try this…the prime contender for Lions Capt Hartley playing like a schoolboy when he isn't banned.

At least he does not have any pof his own playersover rule him.

Like Dan Biggar dd when he went against AWJ decision to kick for goal.

[mikey_dragon]

NZ must be licking their lips after this 6 Nations. Best throwing like a drunken loon against Scotland, Warbs stepping down, AWJ being scared by Biggar, Farrell kicking with his boots on the wrong foot, Heaslip awful against Scotland, Russell throwing no-look passes for the camera, Irish citings, England players having trouble with rucking. If only Picamoles was British.

Quite selective in the use of the facts.

Isn't it. Try this…the prime contender for Lions Capt Hartley playing like a schoolboy when he isn't banned.

At least he does not have any pof his own playersover rule him.

Like Dan Biggar dd when he went against AWJ decision to kick for goal.

How many bans has AWJ had? I bet none of them were for calling the ref a flippin' cheat . Poor, poor leadership.

[cascough]

If Hartley can get a bit more match sharpness back, then I still think he is the best option. Rock solid basics, experience and leadership. The others are all missing a bit of that for my money. But it's early days, still 2 more games to go.

I'm talking specifically for the number 2 jersey here. Where captaincy is concerned I've no idea!

[Cyril]

NZ must be licking their lips after this 6 Nations. Best throwing like a drunken loon against Scotland, Warbs stepping down, AWJ being scared by Biggar, Farrell kicking with his boots on the wrong foot, Heaslip awful against Scotland, Russell throwing no-look passes for the camera, Irish citings, England players having trouble with rucking. If only Picamoles was British.

Quite selective in the use of the facts.

Isn't it. Try this…the prime contender for Lions Capt Hartley playing like a schoolboy when he isn't banned.

At least he does not have any pof his own playersover rule him.

Like Dan Biggar dd when he went against AWJ decision to kick for goal.

How many bans has AWJ had? I bet none of them were for calling the ref a flippin' cheat . Poor, poor leadership.

I remember AWJ tripping Hartley back in 2010. He started it!

[Gwlad]

NZ must be licking their lips after this 6 Nations. Best throwing like a drunken loon against Scotland, Warbs stepping down, AWJ being scared by Biggar, Farrell kicking with his boots on the wrong foot, Heaslip awful against Scotland, Russell throwing no-look passes for the camera, Irish citings, England players having trouble with rucking. If only Picamoles was British.

Quite selective in the use of the facts.

Isn't it. Try this…the prime contender for Lions Capt Hartley playing like a schoolboy when he isn't banned.

At least he does not have any pof his own playersover rule him.

Like Dan Biggar dd when he went against AWJ decision to kick for goal.

He's not on the pitch enough to be over ruled.

[doctor_grey]

NZ must be licking their lips after this 6 Nations. Best throwing like a drunken loon against Scotland, Warbs stepping down, AWJ being scared by Biggar, Farrell kicking with his boots on the wrong foot, Heaslip awful against Scotland, Russell throwing no-look passes for the camera, Irish citings, England players having trouble with rucking. If only Picamoles was British.

Quite selective in the use of the facts.

Isn't it. Try this…the prime contender for Lions Capt Hartley playing like a schoolboy when he isn't banned.

At least he does not have any pof his own playersover rule him.

Like Dan Biggar dd when he went against AWJ decision to kick for goal.

How many bans has AWJ had? I bet none of them were for calling the ref a flippin' cheat . Poor, poor leadership.

I remember AWJ tripping Hartley back in 2010. He started it!

I thought so!  That dirty rotten scoundrel.  Tripping poor Dylan, and then making him look like the guilty party in a small number of innocuous mishaps.  In addition AWJ is losing too much hair to be a proper captain. Hartley for Captain. Hartley for PM.

[Gwlad]

Tripping is one thing, accusing an official of cheating and short arming your oppo quite another. Dirty player.

[beshocked]

Pick your best team then your captain.

Hartley is not playing well enough, if he keeps up his poor form he'll be lucky to make the mid week team, let alone be a captain contender. Unless Gatland decides to ignore playing form like Jones.....

Hartley has a history of altercations with Irish players, can he get along with them on a Lions tour?


I'd also consider Warburton as tour captain, he's a nice bloke, sure he stepped down from Welsh captain but Lions is different of course.

I think Warburton would be less divisive.

[Gooseberry]

Hartley has a history of altercations with Irish players, can he get along with them on a Lions tour?

Which of the likley Irish tourists has he had altercations with?

[Scottrf]

Hartley has a history of altercations with Irish players, can he get along with them on a Lions tour?

Which of the likley Irish tourists has he had altercations with?

Best. Sean O'Brien potential.

[LondonTiger]

POC to come out of retirement and along with a rejuvenated BOD as VC to lead the B&IL to a stunning victory over NZ, with SJW kicking the winning DG.


I need more acronyms

[IanBru]

Pick your best team then your captain.

Hartley is not playing well enough, if he keeps up his poor form he'll be lucky to make the mid week team, let alone be a captain contender. Unless Gatland decides to ignore playing form like Jones.....

Hartley has a history of altercations with Irish players, can he get along with them on a Lions tour?


I'd also consider Warburton as tour captain, he's a nice bloke, sure he stepped down from Welsh captain but Lions is different of course.

I think Warburton would be less divisive.

I agree with that, and agree with Warburton generally as a tour captain. I find it interesting that some pundits are suggesting John Barclay as a mid-week captain. I sort of agree, and see JB in the same mould as wee Greig - not someone who would necessarily get into the test team, but who has clear leadership qualities, would motivate those players who were deemed surplus to requirements, and most importantly keep them immersed in the ethos of the tour should injury put them in contention for a test role.

[beshocked]

Pick your best team then your captain.

Hartley is not playing well enough, if he keeps up his poor form he'll be lucky to make the mid week team, let alone be a captain contender. Unless Gatland decides to ignore playing form like Jones.....

Hartley has a history of altercations with Irish players, can he get along with them on a Lions tour?


I'd also consider Warburton as tour captain, he's a nice bloke, sure he stepped down from Welsh captain but Lions is different of course.

I think Warburton would be less divisive.

I agree with that, and agree with Warburton generally as a tour captain. I find it interesting that some pundits are suggesting John Barclay as a mid-week captain. I sort of agree, and see JB in the same mould as wee Greig - not someone who would necessarily get into the test team, but who has clear leadership qualities, would motivate those players who were deemed surplus to requirements, and most importantly keep them immersed in the ethos of the tour should injury put them in contention for a test role.

Ianbru I agree. Barclay could be a good suggestion for mid week captain.

[LondonTiger]

I could cope with having a pre-decided midweek captain, but would hope we would not go down the 2005 route where there was a midweek squad with it's own coaches.

[captain carrantuohil]

Pre-determined midweek captain a really decent idea. I think back to the Lions tour of 89, when Donal Lenihan did the job superbly. His boys were known affectionately as "Donal's Doughnuts" and the spirit that was fostered played a big part in the sense of togetherness that saw the Lions over the line against Australia.

By comparison, on the 93 tour in NZ, the midweek side was all over the place, well as the Test team was playing; it eventually appeared to stop trying altogether and the result was a sapping of the spirit and a series loss that could have been otherwise with just a bit more cohesion. As for 2005, point's already been made but it does emphasise the importance of having first-teamers and dirt-trackers playing and thinking as one.

[SecretFly]

Jay-SUS! Now we're on to mid-week Captain finger-nail eating stuff.
Breakfast Captain is being ignored!

[RuggerRadge2611]

Pick your best team then your captain.

Hartley is not playing well enough, if he keeps up his poor form he'll be lucky to make the mid week team, let alone be a captain contender. Unless Gatland decides to ignore playing form like Jones.....

Hartley has a history of altercations with Irish players, can he get along with them on a Lions tour?


I'd also consider Warburton as tour captain, he's a nice bloke, sure he stepped down from Welsh captain but Lions is different of course.

I think Warburton would be less divisive.

I agree with that, and agree with Warburton generally as a tour captain. I find it interesting that some pundits are suggesting John Barclay as a mid-week captain. I sort of agree, and see JB in the same mould as wee Greig - not someone who would necessarily get into the test team, but who has clear leadership qualities, would motivate those players who were deemed surplus to requirements, and most importantly keep them immersed in the ethos of the tour should injury put them in contention for a test role.

Ianbru I agree. Barclay could be a good suggestion for mid week captain.

Yes, Jiffy's rather petulant snort on the BBC forum when it was suggested that any of the Scottish backrow might tour after systematically dismantling 3 "hot lions favourites" might come back to haunt him.

The whole Welsh backrow got a bit of a pummeling on Saturday.

[captain carrantuohil]

Much easier to sort out the mid-week captain, Secret. Someone (preferably a forward) deserving of making the trip but in no danger of threatening the Test side. Someone, what's more with a life and soul sort of personality, popular with everyone else and capable of standing his round. That's most of them out, of course, so it should be a case of self-selection by the time they get to New Zealand.

[LondonTiger]

Jay-SUS!  Now we're on to mid-week Captain finger-nail eating stuff.
Breakfast Captain is being ignored!

Pfft, as all Hobbitses know - second breakfast needs the captain.

[funnyExiledScot]

Much easier to sort out the mid-week captain, Secret. Someone (preferably a forward) deserving of making the trip but in no danger of threatening the Test side. Someone, what's more with a life and soul sort of personality, popular with everyone else and capable of standing his round. That's most of them out, of course, so it should be a case of self-selection by the time they get to New Zealand.

Should we just take DOC again.....

[Rugbyjk]

Way I see it at Mo:

1-3 Irish from row, best captain. English front row ( mako George Cole) to come on 2nd half
4-5 itoje kruis
6 stander
7 o Brien
8 vunipola
9 Murray
10 sexton
11 north/ Nowell
12 Farrell
13 Jones (Scotland)
14 Watson ( solomona ahem)
15 L williams

[Poorfour]

The worrying thing about the Lions captaincy debate is that for most of the candidates what we have to consider is which potentially superior player they will keep out of the side. There's no-one who's both obviously captain material and obviously the number one pick in their own position.

[Gwlad]

The worrying thing about the Lions captaincy debate is that for most of the candidates what we have to consider is which potentially superior player they will keep out of the side. There's no-one who's both obviously captain material and obviously the number one pick in their own position.

Warburton is

[Scottrf]

Warburton isn't even number one choice in his position for Wales. Tipuric plays there.

[BigTrevsbigmac]

The worrying thing about the Lions captaincy debate is that for most of the candidates what we have to consider is which potentially superior player they will keep out of the side. There's no-one who's both obviously captain material and obviously the number one pick in their own position.

I think Best probably comes closest & if Ireland beat England he will get the nod. It could well be a battle for the Lions captaincy that last game. Assuming Dylan ups his game.

[Poorfour]

The worrying thing about the Lions captaincy debate is that for most of the candidates what we have to consider is which potentially superior player they will keep out of the side. There's no-one who's both obviously captain material and obviously the number one pick in their own position.

I think Best probably comes closest & if Ireland beat England he will get the nod. It could well be a battle for the Lions captaincy that last game. Assuming Dylan ups his game.

That's very possibly true. Though George is probably the best actual hooker available right now.

[beshocked]

Is Sexton captaincy material?

He looks likely to be starting 10 so perhaps give it to him.

Maybe in the end just put a bunch of names in a hat and pick from that?

It's not been talked about but there might be a chance Farrell Sr twists Gatland's arm to make Farrell Jr captain.

Sadly the Irish contenders don't really stand a chance for captain do they? After O Driscoll gate...

Scottish - nice blokes but let's be honest Gatland will only pick them likely as a mid weeker to mollify them.

So in all likelihood it's Farrell Jr vs AWJ vs Warburton for the captaincy.

[GunsGermsV2]

Way I see it at Mo:

1-3 Irish from row, best captain. English front row ( mako George Cole) to come on 2nd half
4-5 itoje kruis
6 stander
7 o Brien
8 vunipola
9 Murray
10 sexton
11 north/ Nowell
12 Farrell
13 Jones (Scotland)
14 Watson ( solomona ahem)
15 L williams

Not a bad team. I think a 9,10 and 12 of Murray, Sexton and Farrell would be fairly formidable. Not sure Sexton make it that far without getting injured but it is an exciting combo.

[Rugbyjk]

Think that pack could stand up to anything, with sexton AND Farrell's will to win could be great.

Re bench, you could ( sure thisll be popular) go mako, george, Cole/ sinckler, launchbury, Haskell, heaslip/robshaw/ or a n other back, care, daly,

[RuggerRadge2611]

North has been rubbish all tournament.
Watson hasn't played yet, neither has Kruis or Billy V.

No Hogg is the biggest head scratcher. By a huge distance the best fullback in the NH.

[Rugbyjk]

I disagree. North/ Nowell as was undecided.

Watson, kruis, billy V based on what they are capable of.

I do not want Hogg at fullback, I think he is defensively weak and I would much prefer Williams having to make that last tackle.

[GunsGermsV2]

North has been rubbish all tournament.
Watson hasn't played yet, neither has Kruis or Billy V.

No Hogg is the biggest head scratcher. By a huge distance the best fullback in the NH.

Agree re Hogg. He would be one of the first names on the sheet for me. Id put Williams on the wing instead of North or Watson.

[RuggerRadge2611]

I disagree. North/ Nowell as was undecided.

Watson, kruis, billy V based on what they are capable of.

I do not want Hogg at fullback, I think he is defensively weak and I would much prefer Williams having to make that last tackle.

How can you say Hogg is defensively weak and then pick North? He watched as Visser roasted him in the between the touch and 5 meter line last weekend?

North is just not at the races at the moment and that pick is based purely on reputation.

Williams is a good player and I'd have him on one wing with Seymour on the other and Hogg at full back.

Hogg's biggest weakness is his defence, no argument here but he's not the salloon door everyone thinks or wants him to be. Over the 6N he's made 13 tackles and missed 3. That's not really all that terrible.

For me he offers so much more in attack than Williams and as I have said, you are never going to shut the all blacks out. You need to try and outscore them and Hogg is the best man for the job.

[Rugbyjk]

Each to their own, Saturday should show us a few things. Let's revisit then.

[BigGee]

There are so many good players, playing international rugby at the moment, that I suspect it is going to be very hard for those that are not (Kruis and Watson in particular) to come into the reckoning.

Picking either Gray (Johnny should be there in his own right) over Kruis is hardly going to weaken the team and may make a very difficult decision for Gatland a little bit easier.

Billy V still got time and opportunity to show his hand, but I saw the Bath game on Saturday and Watson did not play well at all. EJ clearly does not feel he is good enough for the England squad yet and I think he is rapidly slipping out of contention as it is hard to see him rgaining his England place before then end of the 6N.

I can never remember a Lions squad that is going to be as genuinely competitive as this. Some very good players will be staying at home.

[GunsGermsV2]

I disagree. North/ Nowell as was undecided.

Watson, kruis, billy V based on what they are capable of.

I do not want Hogg at fullback, I think he is defensively weak and I would much prefer Williams having to make that last tackle.

How can you say Hogg is defensively weak and then pick North? He watched as Visser roasted him in the between the touch and 5 meter line last weekend?

North is just not at the races at the moment and that pick is based purely on reputation.

Williams is a good player and I'd have him on one wing with Seymour on the other and Hogg at full back.

Hogg's biggest weakness is his defence, no argument here but he's not the salloon door everyone thinks or wants him to be. Over the 6N he's made 13 tackles and missed 3. That's not really all that terrible.  

For me he offers so much more in attack than Williams and as I have said, you are never going to shut the all blacks out. You need to try and outscore them and Hogg is the best man for the job.

I think he is a good defender. Fullback is probably one of the hardest positions to defend as you have to cover a lot of ground and you deal with a lot of one on ones in space. Williams is a better defender but Hogg a better all round full back. I would have them both in the team on form anyway.

[quinsforever]

williams? hell no. he's not the attacking threat hogg is by half. and when push comes to shove, williams has the potential to fly in with his shoulder and get sent off.

[Gwlad]

williams? hell no. he's not the attacking threat hogg is by half. and when push comes to shove, williams has the potential to fly in with his shoulder and get sent off.

no he doesn't not anymore, and i reckon Williams is easily as good as Hogg from 15 and far better defensively.

[Cyril]

NZ must be finding this very amusing

[aucklandlaurie]

NZ must be finding this very amusing

 Probably more confusing than amusing.

 But its very important that we see who the Lions bring down here as fullbacks, as it may well influence who Hansen plays at fullback, rather than just going for Ben from accounts it may well be better to play him on the wing and use either Dagg or Barrett at fullback possibly even McKenzie. at this stage Bennny will be vice captain and that is another tangent for consideration.

 Do you guys have any thoughts as to who you see as being Lions vice captain should Hartley go off injured or red carded?

[gavstar]

Any of the above posters who wrongly accused you, dan biggar ,of overruling your captain etc etc now know they were wrong......but they wouldn't say that now would they ?.......

[Rugby Fan]

Just occurred to me that, if Hartley does manage to make the tour, then he'll be the first current England captain to be selected for the Lion since 2005. Steve Borthwick and Chris Robshaw both missed out.

[aucklandlaurie]

Just occurred to me that, if Hartley does manage to make the tour, then he'll be the first current England captain to be selected for the Lion since 2005. Steve Borthwick and Chris Robshaw both missed out.

 Not a case of 'if' RF, Hartley will make the tour. so will Robshaw if he recovers.

[Gwlad]

Just occurred to me that, if Hartley does manage to make the tour, then he'll be the first current England captain to be selected for the Lion since 2005. Steve Borthwick and Chris Robshaw both missed out.

 Not a case of 'if' RF, Hartley will make the tour. so will Robshaw if he recovers.

Robshaw? Assuming CJ Stander and Warburton and Itoje are kidnapped by the Men In Black, Robshaw might tour. Otherwise, zero chance. He is a journeyman, an ex captain who lead his team to ignominy at a RWC, with no discernible x factor that would indicate he is Lions material. Nor will he have had the opportunity to demonstrate his form in the 6 Nations and thus unless he has a star rep - he does not - his selection is unjustifiable.

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