The Lions WUM Swamp of Madness No Holds Barred Shootout Thread

[No9]

First topic message reminder :

1) Hartley - Not a chance. Playing like a Muppet, being sub'd each game, because he's not up to it. As it stands, unlikely to go on the tour, never the less be Capt.

2) Alun Wyn - Blown it. Was the first choice (IMO). Set up for him, with Warbs standing down as Welsh Capt, but AWJ loathing of being interviewed and the appalling Welsh team performance has ruined his chance of Lions Capt. The nail in the coffin being his comment this week, that he wanted to kick the penalties but Biggar and Halfpenny didn't want to..... WTF... WHO'S CAPT!!!

3) Laidlaw - Not sure of a starting place as Lions 9, and with injuries, will he be ready for the tour.


which, IMO has pushes Rory Best into the pole position for Lions Capt. With the exception of Brown, he's been the on form hooker this 6 Nations, and as Gats has already stated he would like the Lions capt to also captain his country, Best is now the first choice.

... But Warbs is a good outsider, has he's been there, works well with Gats and has the professional attitude needed. He handles the media well and is starting to show return in his form.

Thoughts...

[rodders]

A big NO to Heaslip.

He'd probably only want to go over there for a bit of networking or to open a supermarket anyway. He might be persuaded if it's renamed The British, Irish and Heaslip Lions.

Haha all of that is true however, he will play out of his skin in the test matches as he has done in all five Lions test matches he has played in.

His next game against Wales is his 100th test cap.

That just shows the lack of competition for places in Irish rugby....  

Well that's because we insist that our ex-pat Saffer, Kiwi (and dutch) players actually live in the country

[GunsGermsV2]

Its more to do with the fact that Heaslip is a machine. I think he has had one injury in his career. Just one.

[Presuming Ed]

I just hope that none of the hopeless over-hyped England players get on the tour. The seats on the plane should obviously go to the players from the sides that these English losers keep accidentally beating. Itoje, Hartley, Robsaw et al, laughing stock of the rugby world. I just wish the 17 sides they've beaten would realise this before there are some accidental Lions picks that would send the tour in to a farce.

[Sgt_Pooly]

I disagree about Heaslip and Moriarty.

Moriarty has been impressive defensively but looks what he is, a 6 playing 8. He's been making around 10m a game which is shocking for a number 8. Hughes has struggled to make a huge impact but he's been our only major carrying option which makes him easy to defend.

Heaslip, I just don't rate. I don't even know how he gets a game for Ireland tbh, you have better options.

So who are your 2 8s for the Lions tour? For me it will be Billy V and Heaslip.

Billy V to start , Faletau as backup, CJ Stander to cover if needed.

Flanks.....Stander, Haskell, Warbs, SOB, with Robshaw, POM also fighting it out.

[GunsGermsV2]

You lost me at Haskell and Warburton.

[Cyril]

Its more to do with the fact that Heaslip is a machine. I think he has had one injury in his career. Just one.

Was that from kneeing a Kiwi? I heard it can be painful.

[funnyExiledScot]

Its more to do with the fact that Heaslip is a machine. I think he has had one injury in his career. Just one.

Al Kellock never used to get injured either. It's not always badge of honour.....

[rodders]

Its more to do with the fact that Heaslip is a machine. I think he has had one injury in his career. Just one.

I think he's been awesome guns. He's always got great orthodox skills and work rate but he's scoring more tries and is much more effective with his ball carrying this year.

[funnyExiledScot]

I disagree about Heaslip and Moriarty.

Moriarty has been impressive defensively but looks what he is, a 6 playing 8. He's been making around 10m a game which is shocking for a number 8. Hughes has struggled to make a huge impact but he's been our only major carrying option which makes him easy to defend.

Heaslip, I just don't rate. I don't even know how he gets a game for Ireland tbh, you have better options.

So who are your 2 8s for the Lions tour? For me it will be Billy V and Heaslip.

Billy V to start , Faletau as backup, CJ Stander to cover if needed.

Flanks.....Stander, Haskell, Warbs, SOB, with Robshaw, POM also fighting it out.

Test Back Row

6.CJ Stander
7.Warburton
8.Vunipola

20.SOB

Midweek

6.Robshaw
7.Barclay
8.Heaslip (although I'd go with Faletau if he can prove fitness)

I'm tempted by Haskell over Barclay, but I've been very impressed by Barclay this 6 Nations - he's the smarter player of the two, if not as powerful.

Moriarty is unlucky, but I'd like to see him complete 80 minutes at the right level of intensity.

[Sgt_Pooly]

You lost me at Haskell and Warburton.

Doesn't take much it seems

Warburton looks to playing well again and Haskell has been superb for England over the last year. I can't think of anyone better, who is there?

Barclay - Lacks physicality
Hardie - a chance but carrying injuries
Moriarty - Strong defence, what else? Modern day Lydiate....Missed 14 tackles in 3 tests last time in NZ.
Itoje - Not great on the flanks
Josh VDF - Decent shout, not better than options selected.

[Sgt_Pooly]

Good choices FES, only Heaslip/Barclay apart.

Barclay has had a few good games this 6N but Haskell has had a great year and bossed pretty much everyone he's came up against, including Pocock/Hooper.

[SecretFly]

Its more to do with the fact that Heaslip is a machine. I think he has had one injury in his career. Just one.

Was that from kneeing a Kiwi? I heard it can be painful.

Trust in us Cyril.  Those back to back WCs were an education.  You need to stand up to these ABs like men.  If that means knees, then it's knees.  We'll take Hartley for the fingers.

[GunsGermsV2]

Its more to do with the fact that Heaslip is a machine. I think he has had one injury in his career. Just one.

Was that from kneeing a Kiwi? I heard it can be painful.

That was just a Knee slip.

[GunsGermsV2]

You lost me at Haskell and Warburton.

Doesn't take much it seems

Warburton looks to playing well again and Haskell has been superb for England over the last year. I can't think of anyone better, who is there?

Barclay - Lacks physicality
Hardie - a chance but carrying injuries
Moriarty - Strong defence, what else? Modern day Lydiate....Missed 14 tackles in 3 tests last time in NZ.
Itoje - Not great on the flanks
Josh VDF - Decent shout, not better than options selected.

If we bring Haskell he is bound to do something stupid like run into the posts or something. Warburton only gets picked because he is such a nice fellow and looks good in front of the media and sponsors. There are better players now.

[GunsGermsV2]

Its more to do with the fact that Heaslip is a machine. I think he has had one injury in his career. Just one.

I think he's been awesome guns. He's always got great orthodox skills and work rate but he's scoring more tries and is much more effective with his ball carrying this year.

Me too. Very under rated player probably because he is a bit of a knob/spacer.

[SecretFly]

Warburton is also good with refs.................................... *gulp*

We're f**ked on Friday.

[Sgt_Pooly]

You lost me at Haskell and Warburton.

Doesn't take much it seems

Warburton looks to playing well again and Haskell has been superb for England over the last year. I can't think of anyone better, who is there?

Barclay - Lacks physicality
Hardie - a chance but carrying injuries
Moriarty - Strong defence, what else? Modern day Lydiate....Missed 14 tackles in 3 tests last time in NZ.
Itoje - Not great on the flanks
Josh VDF - Decent shout, not better than options selected.

If we bring Haskell he is bound to do something stupid like run into the posts or something. Warburton only gets picked because he is such a nice fellow and looks good in front of the media and sponsors. There are better players now.

Nice counter.

[funnyExiledScot]

Good choices FES, only Heaslip/Barclay apart.

Barclay has had a few good games this 6N but Haskell has had a great year and bossed pretty much everyone he's came up against, including Pocock/Hooper.

Barclay had a really strong AIs as well, particularly against Australia.

As I said, really tough choice between those two. On another day I could easily go with Haskell, who was epic last summer.

[Poorfour]

Robshaw and Itoje are polar opposites on the PR front. But arguably, for England, Robshaw is missed more than Maro would be.

If both Robshaw and Itoje are fit, I would expect both of them to start. The point for me is that if Itoje were to pick up an injury England can call on Launchbury, Lawes and Kruis before they have to look at less experienced options, but they don't have a direct replacement for Robshaw.

We've only got one game to go on, but last autumn Hughes, Wood and Robshaw had enough to cope with Pocock, Hooper and Timani, and Hughes looked better in that game than he has so far in the 6N.

All that said, is Robshaw likely to tour this time? I think, based on what I heard Gatland talk about at the kick off press conference, that it's 50/50. You have to assume that Stander is the automatic pick, and Tipuric, Warburton and SOB will be in the running. But Robshaw's influence has been felt heavily in his absence, and Gats also spoke about wanting a handful of players who will make a difference off the pitch, even if they are not in the matchday squad. Robshaw is definitely in that category.

Gatland also said that the tactics would be very different this time. Last time he clearly went in looking to play Wales's power game, using the wider player pool to augment a core Welsh squad with players who could offer the same sort of game. My guess is that this time it's going to be much more about trying to match the AB's work rate, fitness, decision-making (especially late in the game) and discipline - which is closer to the way England and Ireland are playing.

[RuggerRadge2611]

Tipuric and SOB have both been slightly shown up by the Scottish backrow. Watson also kept Stander very quiet.

Scotland have whether posters on here and Gatland likes it or not torn up Gatland's idea of what the lions was going to be. I just hope he does the right thing and picks the form players, not his favourites or those with the killer rep.

[GunsGermsV2]

Tipuric and SOB have both been slightly shown up by the Scottish backrow. Watson also kept Stander very quiet.

Scotland have whether posters on here and Gatland likes it or not torn up Gatland's idea of what the lions was going to be. I just hope he does the right thing and picks the form players, not his favourites or those with the killer rep.

Stander still got 50 meters in that game, Heaslip 69, SOB 38. They each got more yards than any of the Scotland forwards.

http://stats.espnscrum.com/statsguru/rugby/match/255003.html

I think the Scottish back row dominated the first half but the Irish back row were probably more dominant over the course of the full 80 minutes according to the match stats anyway.

[RuggerRadge2611]

Tipuric and SOB have both been slightly shown up by the Scottish backrow. Watson also kept Stander very quiet.

Scotland have whether posters on here and Gatland likes it or not torn up Gatland's idea of what the lions was going to be. I just hope he does the right thing and picks the form players, not his favourites or those with the killer rep.

Stander still got 50 meters in that game, Heaslip 69, SOB 38. They each got more yards than any of the Scotland forwards.

http://stats.espnscrum.com/statsguru/rugby/match/255003.html

I think the Scottish back row dominated the first half but the Irish back row were probably more dominant over the course of the full 80 minutes according to the match stats anyway.

Using stats like that in isolation is dangerous. They carried well. However perhaps if their work around the breakdown was sharper they could have starved Scotland off that quick clean ball in the first half where we racked up 3 tries...

POM was a very notable absentee in that game, he would have probably kept the scoreline in the 1st half down and that would have meant when Ireland had the ball in the 2nd half they would have been clear with some comfort room.

[Sgt_Pooly]

Bringing up carrying stats hardly show which backrow dominated, thats a very odd argument.

[RuggerRadge2611]

Bringing up carrying stats hardly show which backrow dominated, thats a very odd argument.

Agreed, the Scottish pack's tackle statistics are equally remarkable for that game...

Riche Gray made 23 tackles and missed 0
Johnny Gray made 27 and missed 2
Ross Ford made 19 and missed 1 (he was a subs)
Hamish Watson made 19 and missed 0 and only played 50 mins

All those stats show is the Irish did a lot of carrying and the Scots did a lot of tackling.

What the stats don't show is the overall performances. Stander aside I felt the Irish backrow had a poor game. As I said their inability to slow the ball down, particularly in the 1st half meant Scotland ran riot with the platform of quick ball our pack was providing.

[GunsGermsV2]

Tipuric and SOB have both been slightly shown up by the Scottish backrow. Watson also kept Stander very quiet.

Scotland have whether posters on here and Gatland likes it or not torn up Gatland's idea of what the lions was going to be. I just hope he does the right thing and picks the form players, not his favourites or those with the killer rep.

Stander still got 50 meters in that game, Heaslip 69, SOB 38. They each got more yards than any of the Scotland forwards.

http://stats.espnscrum.com/statsguru/rugby/match/255003.html

I think the Scottish back row dominated the first half but the Irish back row were probably more dominant over the course of the full 80 minutes according to the match stats anyway.

Using stats like that in isolation is dangerous. They carried well. However perhaps if their work around the breakdown was sharper they could have starved Scotland off that quick clean ball in the first half where we racked up 3 tries...

POM was a very notable absentee in that game, he would have probably kept the scoreline in the 1st half down and that would have meant when Ireland had the ball in the 2nd half they would have been clear with some comfort room.

Look at all the other stats then, the only stat that Scotland really won was the most important one the score and as such I cant argue that they weren't the better side overall.

However, I dont think its true that the Ireland back row was outshone by the Scotland backrow over the full 80. For periods yes but not over all.

Scotland conceded more turnovers that Ireland over 80 minutes for example, they missed more tackles, made less yards etc.

I dont think POM would have made much difference Scotland got their tactics right.

[SecretFly]

Scotland played both halves. Ireland only played one. Proves the point that rugby happens in 80 minutes.

[GunsGermsV2]

Bringing up carrying stats hardly show which backrow dominated, thats a very odd argument.

No its not when the original comment was about how the Scotland back row keeping Stander quiet, his obvious strength being his carrying.

[funnyExiledScot]

Scotland played both halves.  Ireland only played one.  Proves the point that rugby happens in 80 minutes.

I'm not entirely sure that's correct. Ireland scored 17 unanswered points either side of half time. We did fall asleep for a chunk of the game, but our innate superiority over Ireland shone through in the end.

Is Rob Kearney still having nightmares about Stuart Hogg?

[Sgt_Pooly]

Bringing up carrying stats hardly show which backrow dominated, thats a very odd argument.

No its not when the original comment was about how the Scotland back row keeping Stander quiet, his obvious strength being his carrying.

Well you've just said Nathan Hughes has been muck (he made 75m against Wales, Tips the closest Welsh player with 20m), what's his strength......

You remind me very much of BS sometimes Germs. Picking and choosing when an argument suits, yet completely ignoring when it doesn't.

[GunsGermsV2]

Haha Id say Keith Earls and Ringrose are having the nightmares as they were the ones that missed the tackles on Hogg. Kearney was our top performing back in that game.

Scotland were superior. I predicted they would win that game and a grand slam and to be fair they arent that far off.

[beshocked]

I'd say Scotland played for 50 minutes, Ireland for 30.

Scotland dominated the first half. Scottish pack was stopping Irish momentum, Russell was putting Scotland into good positions from the boot and from Irish errors from the pressure created.

Ireland's ball carriers started to make some ground in the 2nd 40 but Scotland in the end did enough to win.

[SecretFly]

Scotland played both halves.  Ireland only played one.  Proves the point that rugby happens in 80 minutes.

I'm not entirely sure that's correct. Ireland scored 17 unanswered points either side of half time. We did fall asleep for a chunk of the game, but our innate superiority over Ireland shone through in the end.

Is Rob Kearney still having nightmares about Stuart Hogg?

The only Scottish player the Irish players know off-by-heart is Dan Parks.  And they were very disappointed he wasn't playing because they planned to rough him up.  He had it coming too.

[funnyExiledScot]

Haha Id say Keith Earls and Ringrose are having the nightmares as they were the ones that missed the tackles on Hogg. Kearney was our top performing back in that game.

Scotland were superior. I predicted they would win that game and a grand slam and to be fair they arent that far off.

It makes me happy to see you commit that to writing.

You will probably still finish above us in the table, if that's any consolation.....

[Scottrf]

Scotland were superior. I predicted they would win that game and a grand slam and to be fair they arent that far off.

Apart from already losing and a fixture they haven't won in 34 years.

[funnyExiledScot]

Scotland played both halves.  Ireland only played one.  Proves the point that rugby happens in 80 minutes.

I'm not entirely sure that's correct. Ireland scored 17 unanswered points either side of half time. We did fall asleep for a chunk of the game, but our innate superiority over Ireland shone through in the end.

Is Rob Kearney still having nightmares about Stuart Hogg?

The only Scottish player the Irish players know off-by-heart is Dan Parks.  And they were very disappointed he wasn't playing because they planned to rough him up.  He had it coming too.

Well we were hoping to keep it tight and just chuck the ball to Ronan O'Gara with 30 seconds to play.

[tigertattie]

Bringing up carrying stats hardly show which backrow dominated, thats a very odd argument.

No its not when the original comment was about how the Scotland back row keeping Stander quiet, his obvious strength being his carrying.

Well you've just said Nathan Hughes has been muck (he made 75m against Wales, Tips the closest Welsh player with 20m), what's his strength......

You remind me very much of BS sometimes Germs. Picking and choosing when an argument suits, yet completely ignoring when it doesn't.

Metres gained is one of the most pointless stats out there!

Sergio Parrise often tops this chart (for backrows) as he spends huge swathes of time hanging out on the wings and when he catches a clearance kick, he can leg it 20m forward before he meets an opponent! He can then get tackled by the first man so zero defenders beaten, 20m made!

Then you can have Billy V for example, who crashes onto a pass from the base of a ruck. He bashes the first defender out his way, steps the 2nd defender and then makes 10 metres before he's hauled down by a covering winger. Two defenders beaten, 10m made.  

To me, metres made should only be counted as metres over the gain line. so if you are returning a kick, you only get metres by getting passed either where the ball was kicked (which is very rare) or it should only be counted from when you get passed the first defender!

[GunsGermsV2]

Haha Id say Keith Earls and Ringrose are having the nightmares as they were the ones that missed the tackles on Hogg. Kearney was our top performing back in that game.

Scotland were superior. I predicted they would win that game and a grand slam and to be fair they arent that far off.

It makes me happy to see you commit that to writing.

You will probably still finish above us in the table, if that's any consolation.....

I have never claimed otherwise and I also predicted Scotland to win that game and the slam prior to the start of the 6N. I rate them very highly. I think they will beat England.

[GunsGermsV2]

Scotland were superior. I predicted they would win that game and a grand slam and to be fair they arent that far off.

Apart from already losing and a fixture they haven't won in 34 years.

Thanks captain obvious.

[GunsGermsV2]

Bringing up carrying stats hardly show which backrow dominated, thats a very odd argument.

No its not when the original comment was about how the Scotland back row keeping Stander quiet, his obvious strength being his carrying.

Well you've just said Nathan Hughes has been muck (he made 75m against Wales, Tips the closest Welsh player with 20m), what's his strength......

You remind me very much of BS sometimes Germs. Picking and choosing when an argument suits, yet completely ignoring when it doesn't.

Do you need a hug or something?

Im sure BS will be very flattered.

[BamBam]

Bringing up carrying stats hardly show which backrow dominated, thats a very odd argument.

No its not when the original comment was about how the Scotland back row keeping Stander quiet, his obvious strength being his carrying.

Well you've just said Nathan Hughes has been muck (he made 75m against Wales, Tips the closest Welsh player with 20m), what's his strength......

You remind me very much of BS sometimes Germs. Picking and choosing when an argument suits, yet completely ignoring when it doesn't.

Oh come on he's not that bad!

[rodders]

Stats are very misleading.

Its like that Scottish fella who apparently never misses any tackles.

I say the lazy bugger doesn't attempt any he isn't sure he'll make...what use is a fella like that?

[Sgt_Pooly]

Haha....youre probably right. Got to take the anti-English stuff with a pinch of salt.

[funnyExiledScot]

Stats are very misleading.

Its like that Scottish fella who apparently never misses any tackles.

I say the lazy bugger doesn't attempt any he isn't sure he'll make...what use is a fella like that?  

Exactly. It's a bit like saying Biggar and Halfpenny are decent goal kickers, when it's clear as day they duck the hard ones....

[beshocked]

Sgt Poorly don't know why you are mentioning me. As for picking and choosing that's exactly what you are doing now.

Hughes making more metres than Tipuric doesn't mean he performed better. Hughes was used frequently as a ball carrier and got smashed, noticeably by Moriarty.

Hughes deserves credit for effort but wasn't making enough of an impact. Being better than vs France and Italy doesn't mean he was particularly good. 6/10 is probably a fair rating vs Wales.

[lostinwales]

I think England have been better against the SH sides than they have in the 6N

I think Ireland have been lacking consistency. They have had some very good and some poor performances in the last year.

[lostinwales]

Stats are very misleading.

Its like that Scottish fella who apparently never misses any tackles.

I say the lazy bugger doesn't attempt any he isn't sure he'll make...what use is a fella like that?  

Exactly. It's a bit like saying Biggar and Halfpenny are decent goal kickers, when it's clear as day they duck the hard ones....

The Patterson of 2nd row forwards...

[GunsGermsV2]

Stats are very misleading.

Its like that Scottish fella who apparently never misses any tackles.

I say the lazy bugger doesn't attempt any he isn't sure he'll make...what use is a fella like that?  

Nigel Walker apparently never missed a tackle.

https://www.606v2.com/t7777p100-unusual-rugby-facts

[Sgt_Pooly]

Sgt Poorly don't know why you are mentioning me. As for picking and choosing that's exactly what you are doing now.

Hughes making more metres than Tipuric doesn't mean he performed better. Hughes was used frequently as a ball carrier and got smashed, noticeably by Moriarty.

Hughes deserves credit for effort but wasn't making enough of an impact. Being better than vs France and Italy doesn't mean he was particularly good. 6/10 is probably a fair rating vs Wales.

I was being ironic BS, completely lost on you yet again. I know you're not the brightest button but It's spelt POOLY

It sometime feels like I'm debating with a 5 year old.......poorly.....jesus man.

[funnyExiledScot]

Stats are very misleading.

Its like that Scottish fella who apparently never misses any tackles.

I say the lazy bugger doesn't attempt any he isn't sure he'll make...what use is a fella like that?  

Exactly. It's a bit like saying Biggar and Halfpenny are decent goal kickers, when it's clear as day they duck the hard ones....

The Patterson of 2nd row forwards...

Exactly. Chris Paterson was highly overrated as a goal kicker. It's widely known that the reason Scotland scored so few tries is because Paterson instructed the team not to score tries except underneath the sticks, so as to bump up his kicking percentages. The whole world record (at the time) 36 consecutive successful kicks at goal at Test level was just fake news, and the numerous kicks from the touchline during that run was an optical illusion created by Russian hackers.

[funnyExiledScot]

Stats are very misleading.

Its like that Scottish fella who apparently never misses any tackles.

I say the lazy bugger doesn't attempt any he isn't sure he'll make...what use is a fella like that?  

Nigel Walker apparently never missed a tackle.

https://www.606v2.com/t7777p100-unusual-rugby-facts

How many did he attempt?? I recall him being a bit Cuthbert-esque in defence.

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