6N 2017: England vs Scotland

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ENGLAND v SCOTLAND
Saturday 10th March
16:00 GMT
Twickenham Stadium

Live on ITV, RTE, FR2, DMAX

Referee - Matthieu Raynal
AR1 - Romain Poite
AR2 - Marius Mitrea
TMO - Ben Skeen

A. Head to Head

134 Played 134
74 Won 42
18 Drawn 18
42 Lost 74
1,562 Points 1,141

B. Recent Form

6 February 2016
Murrayfield, Edinburgh
9 – 15 to England

14 March 2015
Twickenham, London
25 – 13 to England

8 February 2014
Murrayfield, Edinburgh
0 – 20 to England

2 February 2013
Twickenham, London
38 – 18 to England

4 February 2012
Murrayfield, Edinburgh
6 – 13 to England

C. Teams

ENGLAND


Starting XV:

15. Mike Brown (vice captain, Harlequins, 58 caps), 14. Jack Nowell  (Exeter Chiefs, 21 caps), 13. Jonathan Joseph (Bath Rugby, 31 caps), 12. Owen Farrell (vice captain, Saracens, 50 caps), 11. Elliot Daly (Wasps, 11 caps), 10. George Ford (Bath Rugby, 33 caps), 9. Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers, 68 caps), 1. Joe Marler (Harlequins, 49 caps), 2. Dylan Hartley (captain, Northampton Saints, 82 caps), 3. Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers, 72 caps), 4. Joe Launchbury (Wasps, 40 caps) , 5. Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints, 56 caps), 6. Maro Itoje (Saracens, 10 caps), 7. James Haskell (Wasps, 73 caps) , 8. Nathan Hughes (Wasps, 6 caps).

Finishers

16. Jamie George (Saracens, 15 caps), 17. Mako Vunipola (Saracens, 40 caps), 18. Kyle Sinckler (Harlequins, 6 caps), 19. Tom Wood (Northampton Saints, 48 caps), 20. Billy Vunipola (vice captain, Saracens 32 caps), 21. Danny Care (Harlequins, 69 caps), 22. Ben Te’o (Worcester Warriors, 6 caps), 23. Anthony Watson (Bath Rugby, 24 caps).

SCOTLAND


Starting XV

15. Stuart Hogg (Glasgow Warriors) – 51 caps; 16 tries, 3 pens, 89 points
14. Tommy Seymour (Glasgow Warriors) – 34 caps; 15 tries, 75 points
13. Huw Jones (Stormers) – 6 caps; 2 tries, 10 points
12. Alex Dunbar (Glasgow Warriors) – 22 caps; 6 tries, 30 points
11. Tim Visser (Harlequins) – 29 caps; 12 tries, 60 points
10. Finn Russell (Glasgow Warriors) – 25 caps; 2 tries, 5 cons, 8 pens, 44 points
9. Ali Price (Glasgow Warriors) – 3 caps

1. Gordon Reid (Glasgow Warriors) – 22 caps
2. Fraser Brown (Glasgow Warriors) – 23 caps
3. Zander Fagerson (Glasgow Warriors) – 7 caps
4. Richie Gray (Toulouse) – 63 caps; 3 tries, 15 points
5. Jonny Gray (Glasgow Warriors) – 31 caps; 2 tries, 10 points
6. John Barclay CAPTAIN (Scarlets) – 58 caps; 4 tries, 20 points
7. Hamish Watson (Edinburgh Rugby) – 8 caps; 1 try, 5 points
8. Ryan Wilson (Glasgow Warriors) – 25 caps

Substitutes:
16. Ross Ford (Edinburgh Rugby) – 105 caps; 2 tries, 10 points
17. Allan Dell (Edinburgh Rugby) – 6 caps
18. Simon Berghan (Edinburgh Rugby) – 1 cap
19. Tim Swinson (Glasgow Warriors) – 27 caps; 1 try, 5 points
20. Cornell Du Preez (Edinburgh Rugby) – uncapped
21. Henry Pyrgos (Glasgow Warriors) – 19 caps; 4 tries, 3 pens, 29 points
22. Duncan Weir (Edinburgh Rugby) – 25 caps; 2 tries, 7 cons, 10 pens, 1 drop, 57 points
23. Mark Bennett (Glasgow Warriors) – 19 caps; 6 tries, 30 points

that is a world class bench indeed!

robbo277 wrote:If Billy starts for Sarries this weekend and comes through strong, I'd rather see him get 25/30 minutes off the bench for England against Scotland to prepare him for a similar or starting role against Ireland.

I'd probably drop Wood to make room.

Agreed. I think 20 mins in an England shirt will be better prep for the Ireland game than another week with Sarries.

cascough wrote:

robbo277 wrote:If Billy starts for Sarries this weekend and comes through strong, I'd rather see him get 25/30 minutes off the bench for England against Scotland to prepare him for a similar or starting role against Ireland.

I'd probably drop Wood to make room.

Agreed. I think 20 mins in an England shirt will be better prep for the Ireland game than another week with Sarries.

I think we need to consider the competing priorities in play here:
1. V Vunipola's preparedness for the Ireland test
2. The effect on my psyche of said Vunipola playing against a team I support.

It's bad enough that he's turning out against Falcons on Sunday, I'm genuinely not prepared to see him appear at Twickers with 20 minutes to go and Scotland holding a six point lead...

http://www.punditarena.com/rugby/english-rugby/pwassell/the-england-team-eddie-jones-should-pick-for-scotland/

I like this team, only thing I'd change is not make Farrell captain. Plus have Billy V on the bench instead of Wood.


Ianbru Billy V is coming back at an ideal time. Saracens can't afford to lose to Newcastle, the Vunipolas combined should shore up a pack struggling without most of their best forwards.

As for England, Billy V will just augment an already strong bench.

Don't think Scotland will know what hit them if England brings on the Saracens trio at the same time if they all are fit enough. Having those 3 rampaging at the same time. Fresh against tired Scottish forwards.....

Only in England would you have those 3 on the bench and not starting....

Then you add Sinckler and Teo too....

beshocked wrote:http://www.punditarena.com/rugby/english-rugby/pwassell/the-england-team-eddie-jones-should-pick-for-scotland/

I like this team, only thing I'd change is not make Farrell captain. Plus have Billy V on the bench instead of Wood.


Ianbru Billy V is coming back at an ideal time. Saracens can't afford to lose to Newcastle, the Vunipolas combined should shore up a pack struggling without most of their best forwards.

That's not really a change so much as a statement. You have to name a captain.

cascough I've said it before - Pick Haskell, he had to act as Hartley's translator vs Italy.

Itoje is probably the most intelligent guy in the squad and I still think he's the long term solution but not yet.

Need some captain placeholders till then. I'd share the captaincy around to build a bit of leadership experience before Itoje.

IanBru wrote:

cascough wrote:

robbo277 wrote:If Billy starts for Sarries this weekend and comes through strong, I'd rather see him get 25/30 minutes off the bench for England against Scotland to prepare him for a similar or starting role against Ireland.

I'd probably drop Wood to make room.

Agreed. I think 20 mins in an England shirt will be better prep for the Ireland game than another week with Sarries.

I think we need to consider the competing priorities in play here:
1. V Vunipola's preparedness for the Ireland test
2. The effect on my psyche of said Vunipola playing against a team I support.

It's bad enough that he's turning out against Falcons on Sunday, I'm genuinely not prepared to see him appear at Twickers with 20 minutes to go and Scotland holding a six point lead...

Possibly got my wording a bit wrong. Putting him on the bench obviously wouldn't just be to prepare him from Ireland, I'd also be expecting an impact against Scotland. We've definitely missed his go forward, and against tired legs he could be lethal.

Billy will definitely offer more impact than Wood could offer, but if he comes through 25 minutes for England well, he could potentially start in Week 5.

Saying that, did anyone see the clips doing the rounds on Twitter? Ryan Wilson made 6 tackles in 90 seconds against Wales in minutes 73-74! If Billy comes on, a similar defensive shift may be needed.

https://twitter.com/topofthemoonGW/status/837398132208041984

Beshocked, that's not a bad team, and obviously ticks your boxes of starting Mako and George over Marler and Hartley.

The interesting one for me there is the midfield. Jones has backed Ford so thoroughly, the one time he's dropped Ford it took him a whole 20 minutes before he regretted it. Not sure if I can see him doing the same again, I definitely can't see him dropping him out the 23 altogether, as a Farrell injury would leave him with an inexperienced international centre running the game.

However, a midfield of Farrell, Te'o and Joseph (which some considered before Joseph was removed from the squad for the Italy game) is definitely worthy of consideration.

beshocked wrote:cascough I've said it before - Pick Haskell, he had to act as Hartley's translator vs Italy.

Itoje is probably the most intelligent guy in the squad and I still think he's the long term solution but not yet.

Need some captain placeholders till then. I'd share the captaincy around to build a bit of leadership experience before Itoje.

It's amazing that Launchbury was out of sorts and looked out of shape against France, but has now followed that up with (correct me if I'm wrong) two man-of-the-match awards. If Jones does decide to drop Hartley and is looking for a temporary captain, he could do worse.

To be fair robbo277 I am not too bothered if Marler starts.

He has had a solid tournament, Mako I feel would take pressure off Hughes in the carrying department though.

There's not really that much between Mako and Marler except in the loose.

I'd pick Mako and George together also because they are team mates.

robbo277 very true. Pretty good shout that. Jones talked about needing to build up the leadership group. Sharing the captaincy would do that IMO.

Launchbury certainly is in good form and there are 3 players sharing lineout duties so he has less on his plate.

robbo277 wrote: I definitely can't see him dropping him out the 23 altogether, as a Farrell injury would leave him with an inexperienced international centre running the game.

Just doing that devils advocate thing...isnt that what Farrell was (as replacement then starting 10) in the early Lancaster games?

You are right maybe not drop Ford from the 23. Think he would be useful from the bench with 20 minutes to go.

I've been worried about Ford's defence. Made his tackles in the first couple of games but shunted backwards, 3rd game exposed for his defensive frailty.

Sexton would love a repeat of 2015 I am sure....

Farrell has a much better record against Sexton than Ford.

Sigh, this again.

Ford misses 1 tackle and it's confirmed he's a bad defender for the next year. Put's in a years worth of good defense and then misses a tackle, labelled as a bad defender...and repeat.

beshocked, Mako is definitely the better carrier. Neither are perfect in the scrum, but Marler has generally been less prone being outfoxed than Mako. I also think Marler adds more in defence - not necessarily in terms of absolute tackle count but he covers more ground, makes a lot of assists and I think is a big presence in the defensive line.

For me, it's a question of horses for courses. With Billy in the team, I prefer it when Eddie starts with Marler - Mako's carrying is better used against tired legs and he scrummages better with George alongside him. Without Billy, I'd be very happy to see him start. Possibly that would work best if George also started, but I can't see that happening unless Hartley suffers a training injury.

Beyond that, I don't think it's time to experiment too much. Scotland are in form and will be up for this match. England should be looking to put out the strongest team available rather than experiment with new combinations. The ones we have are only just bedding in.

As for Ford... A lot depends on whether Itoje (or possibly Lawes) can step up to Robshaw's cover tackling role. It's clear that Ford needs a backup in his channel and is a bit exposed without it. I'd probably be uncomfortable with Farrell / Te'o / Joseph unless Care also started - I think Farrell needs a bit of extra creativity around him when he plays 10; Youngs doesn't play that type of game, and Joseph is too far removed at 13. Again, can't see it happening to start.

What I could see happening is England starting with a largely unchanged backline and aiming to starve Scotland of possession through the setpiece. If that doesn't work, I could see an early change to bring Te'o on.

Marler, in the earlier stages of his career, used to be pretty potent in the loose. He doesn't seem to do as much of that now (with ball in hand anyway). Has he concentrated on the scrum and less on that part of the game? I seem to recall him having a few barnstorming runs (maybe more for Quins than England) a few years ago.

cascough you seem to think if you make your tackles that makes you a good defender. I don't think you are a good defender if you get driven back every single time or need someone to help you tackle the opposition most times.

It's not just a missed tackle, it's a bad one.

Poorfour it's not really much of an experiment to start Mako and George.

I agree England need to put out their strongest team available hence why those two should start....

It's not good when a team has to protect their 10.

How would Teo strengthen the set piece?

Trying to rack my brains on the instance where Farrell missed 2 tackles in the build up to a try along with one for Hartley in the same move...thinking it was one of the Aus tests last year. We maybe need to move on from these 2.

I'm sure Sam Burgess can play 10.

Gooseberry wrote:

robbo277 wrote: I definitely can't see him dropping him out the 23 altogether, as a Farrell injury would leave him with an inexperienced international centre running the game.

Just doing that devils advocate thing...isnt that what Farrell was (as replacement then starting 10) in the early Lancaster games?

I guess so, but did we have any other option at that time? Our options at the 2011 World Cup were Wilkinson and Flood. Wilkinson retired in 2011 and Flood was injured for the tournament, leaving Lancaster with Hodgson and Farrell at 10/12 with Turner-Hall on the bench.

beshocked wrote:cascough you seem to think if you make your tackles that makes you a good defender. I don't think you are a good defender if you get driven back every single time or need someone to help you tackle the opposition most times.

You seem to think most backs and 10s in particular are dominant defenders.

I think desire, positioning and technique are what makes a good defender. And Ford displays these consistently to a high level. Where a back and particularly a half back is concerned, power is a bonus.

Didn't Haskell miss a tackle leading to a try for Wales last year (or was it two years ago - the Faletau pick up and Webb try). Drop him now I say.

LondonTiger wrote:Didn't Haskell miss a tackle leading to a try for Wales last year (or was it two years ago - the Faletau pick up and Webb try). Drop him now I say.

That was 2015 I think. Was at the start of a game, where last year Wales scored 3 tries towards the end.

Thanks Robbo my advancing years means I often forget thi

No 7 & 1/2 you like to find ways to disagree with me even when you agree with me...sigh...

cascough no I don't but compared to Sexton,Biggar and Farrell, Ford's defence isn't up to scratch.

Ford's defence is perhaps on par with Russell but then again Russell's is one of the worst.

Ford doesn't stop opposition on the gain line generally, he's pushed backwards.

Even when you compare Ford to other previous England 10s like Flood and Wilkinson, Ford is worse in defence. Better than Hodgson sure though. Hodgson hasn't been known as a good defender though.

Londontiger pretty sure Faletau shrugged off Ford in that try.


I am not sure Scotland have enough big ball carriers to cause a lot of problems for Ford but the backs might do.

I don't agree that Ford isn't a strong enough defender to play fly half. I was also pointing out Farrell has made mistakes with tackling, normally by going too high and wanting to make that big hit which for me is a riskier technique.

beshocked wrote:Even when you compare Ford to other previous England 10s like Flood and Wilkinson, Ford is worse in defence.

That's a bit of an unfair comparison. Jonny was one of the best (if not the best) defensive fly-halfs ever. Flood is a big guy for a 10 (about the same size as Sexton).

No 7&1/2 wrote:I don't agree that Ford isn't a strong enough defender to play fly half. I was also pointing out Farrell has made mistakes with tackling,  normally by going too high and wanting to make that big hit which for me is a riskier technique.

People were quick to criticise Brown for Campagnaro's try....but Ford was the first up tackler, lined up nicely, and put up as much resistance as a wet newspaper.

mid_gen wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:I don't agree that Ford isn't a strong enough defender to play fly half. I was also pointing out Farrell has made mistakes with tackling,  normally by going too high and wanting to make that big hit which for me is a riskier technique.

People were quick to criticise Brown for Campagnaro's try....but Ford was the first up tackler, lined up nicely, and put up as much resistance as a wet newspaper.

Yeah Ford was the one who got ran through, Brown was just fixed. You can argue his positiong wasnt great because it meant he was static and too far behind the line, but there would have been some assumption that Ford would have at least made it look like he was tackling and a chip through had to be covered. Browns just made to look stupid, Ford was brushed aside way too easily.

That said if youre picking your fly halves on their tackling ability youve already given up and admited you're in damage limitation.

Yup should have made that tackle mid gen. So should george. So should brown. I still consider all 3 good enough. Apart from Jonny gray and Tipuric everyone misses tackles occasionally.

So Ford missed a tackle. Farrell has in ghe past which led a try. Can we please ensure we go for a safety first approach no matter what across the team! Where are this year's Hape and Tindall for midfield.

No 7&1/2 wrote: So should george.

Paging Beshockked

robbo277 wrote:

IanBru wrote:

cascough wrote:

robbo277 wrote:If Billy starts for Sarries this weekend and comes through strong, I'd rather see him get 25/30 minutes off the bench for England against Scotland to prepare him for a similar or starting role against Ireland.

I'd probably drop Wood to make room.

Agreed. I think 20 mins in an England shirt will be better prep for the Ireland game than another week with Sarries.

I think we need to consider the competing priorities in play here:
1. V Vunipola's preparedness for the Ireland test
2. The effect on my psyche of said Vunipola playing against a team I support.

It's bad enough that he's turning out against Falcons on Sunday, I'm genuinely not prepared to see him appear at Twickers with 20 minutes to go and Scotland holding a six point lead...

Possibly got my wording a bit wrong. Putting him on the bench obviously wouldn't just be to prepare him from Ireland, I'd also be expecting an impact against Scotland. We've definitely missed his go forward, and against tired legs he could be lethal.

Billy will definitely offer more impact than Wood could offer, but if he comes through 25 minutes for England well, he could potentially start in Week 5.

Saying that, did anyone see the clips doing the rounds on Twitter? Ryan Wilson made 6 tackles in 90 seconds against Wales in minutes 73-74! If Billy comes on, a similar defensive shift may be needed.

https://twitter.com/topofthemoonGW/status/837398132208041984

Beshocked, that's not a bad team, and obviously ticks your boxes of starting Mako and George over Marler and Hartley.

The interesting one for me there is the midfield. Jones has backed Ford so thoroughly, the one time he's dropped Ford it took him a whole 20 minutes before he regretted it. Not sure if I can see him doing the same again, I definitely can't see him dropping him out the 23 altogether, as a Farrell injury would leave him with an inexperienced international centre running the game.

However, a midfield of Farrell, Te'o and Joseph (which some considered before Joseph was removed from the squad for the Italy game) is definitely worthy of consideration.

That turnover by Watson, at the end is one of the best I've ever seen. He's got Warburton and charteris I think litteraly hanging off him and he still doesn't let go. Billy V is big, strong and direct. He is a concern, but not a terminal one. France and Wales bashed it up all game long and only got a try each. Daly, Nowell are greater concerns IMO

cyril so it's unfair to name 3 England 10s in recent times superior to Ford in defence?

no 7 & 1/2 if Ford doesn't get brushed off easily then George would have enough time to assist.

ruggerradge2611

Billy was like a wrecking ball in last year's 6 nations and vs Scotland too.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/35498062

Wales didn't have anyone of Billy's caliber. Billy punches the holes for others.

If a fresh Billy comes on vs Scotland with 20 to go.... I've already pointed out the disparity in backrow weights... Billy tips that even further in England's favour.

beshocked wrote:No 7 & 1/2 you like to find ways to disagree with me even when you agree with me...sigh...

cascough no I don't but compared to Sexton,Biggar and Farrell, Ford's defence isn't up to scratch.

Ford's defence is perhaps on par with Russell but then again Russell's is one of the worst.

Ford doesn't stop opposition on the gain line generally, he's pushed backwards.

Even when you compare Ford to other previous England 10s like Flood and Wilkinson, Ford is worse in defence. Better than Hodgson sure though. Hodgson hasn't been known as a good defender though.

Londontiger pretty sure Faletau shrugged off Ford in that try.


I am not sure Scotland have enough big ball carriers to cause a lot of problems for Ford but the backs might do.

To compare him to Wilkinson and then use that as a negative for Ford rather than a positive for Wilkinson is ridiculous.

Sexton is a decent defender, but I certainly wouldn't call him a dominant defender (the occasional tackle perhaps). Biggar and Russell are both tenacious (with the latter having the poorer technique IMO) but are still often passive defenders. Barrett, not a dominant defender. Foley, not a dominant defender. Many of these are good defenders, but you just can't go expecting your flyhalf to knock back 18 stone back rowers.

And your comment about the gainline is demonstrably false. That has more to do with Englands system than Fords defence, I'll grant you. Englands linespeed is such that even if Ford loses a metre in the tackle the opposition often don't get gainline success.

beshocked wrote:cyril so it's unfair to name 3 England 10s in recent times superior to Ford in defence?

no 7 & 1/2 if Ford doesn't get brushed off easily then George would have enough time to assist.

ruggerradge2611

Billy was like a wrecking ball in last year's 6 nations and vs Scotland too.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/35498062

Wales didn't have anyone of Billy's caliber. Billy punches the holes for others.

If a fresh Billy comes on vs Scotland with 20 to go.... I've already pointed out the disparity in backrow weights... Billy tips that even further in England's favour.

We've dealt with Stander, O'Brien, Vahamina and Picomoles.

Billy V is a monster. However he is just coming back from a lengthy injury, will he be the same? Even if he is, it's not as if we haven't come up against big ball carrying units in this 6N yet.

It's England's pace out wide that I think will be difficult to handle. Noone in the 6N has tested us out wide the way England will. Equally England haven't come up against an attacking threat like Scotland this 6N. This has all the hallmarks of a classic in the making.

cascough I didn't just mention Wilkinson. I mentioned numerous 10s but of course you have to single out Wilkinson....

Ford doesn't compare well to numerous 10s which is my point. Not - oh he's not as good as Wilkinson.

Russell and Ford are similar. Can't fault either for tenacity but they are players that can be targeted.

No I don't expect every fly half to be Jonny Wilkinsonesque but don't want them to be one of the worst 10 defenders in the 6 nations.

Obviously a fly half should be a good all rounder and Ford has weaknesses he must work on.

ruggerradge2611 I'd say Billy V on form is better than all of them. I guess that's the biggest issue, will he hit the ground running?

It's important to have a good mix of guile and power.

Ireland were well off the pace in the first 40. Ireland's ball carriers were easily stopped. France lacked guile. Billy isn't just a bosher, his handling has improved and might be used as a decoy.

Remember it's a different challenge - a potentially fresh Billy with 20 minutes to go. Then you add the others on top of that like George,Mako and Sinckler.

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:

robbo277 wrote:

IanBru wrote:

cascough wrote:

robbo277 wrote:If Billy starts for Sarries this weekend and comes through strong, I'd rather see him get 25/30 minutes off the bench for England against Scotland to prepare him for a similar or starting role against Ireland.

I'd probably drop Wood to make room.

Agreed. I think 20 mins in an England shirt will be better prep for the Ireland game than another week with Sarries.

I think we need to consider the competing priorities in play here:
1. V Vunipola's preparedness for the Ireland test
2. The effect on my psyche of said Vunipola playing against a team I support.

It's bad enough that he's turning out against Falcons on Sunday, I'm genuinely not prepared to see him appear at Twickers with 20 minutes to go and Scotland holding a six point lead...

Possibly got my wording a bit wrong. Putting him on the bench obviously wouldn't just be to prepare him from Ireland, I'd also be expecting an impact against Scotland. We've definitely missed his go forward, and against tired legs he could be lethal.

Billy will definitely offer more impact than Wood could offer, but if he comes through 25 minutes for England well, he could potentially start in Week 5.

Saying that, did anyone see the clips doing the rounds on Twitter? Ryan Wilson made 6 tackles in 90 seconds against Wales in minutes 73-74! If Billy comes on, a similar defensive shift may be needed.

https://twitter.com/topofthemoonGW/status/837398132208041984

Beshocked, that's not a bad team, and obviously ticks your boxes of starting Mako and George over Marler and Hartley.

The interesting one for me there is the midfield. Jones has backed Ford so thoroughly, the one time he's dropped Ford it took him a whole 20 minutes before he regretted it. Not sure if I can see him doing the same again, I definitely can't see him dropping him out the 23 altogether, as a Farrell injury would leave him with an inexperienced international centre running the game.

However, a midfield of Farrell, Te'o and Joseph (which some considered before Joseph was removed from the squad for the Italy game) is definitely worthy of consideration.

That turnover by Watson, at the end is one of the best I've ever seen. He's got Warburton and charteris I think litteraly hanging off him and he still doesn't let go. Billy V is big, strong and direct. He is a concern, but not a terminal one. France and Wales bashed it up all game long and only got a try each. Daly, Nowell are greater concerns IMO

England wont just bash it up all game though. We haven't been great this tournament...HOWEVER when we wake up, the one thing we have done is been brutally efficient with chances. That's the area that Scotland need to be focused on the most. Even if England are playing badly for 70 mins...if Scotland are only a few points ahead...they are capable of scoring rapidly.

Something that hasn't been said of an England team for along time.

Wilkinson is certainly an unfair comparison, given that the list of "flyhalves worse than Jonny Wilkinson in defence" is very close to the list of "every fly half who ever played except Jonny Wilkinson".

Not all fly halves are equal at all skills. What set Wilkinson, Carter and to some extent Sexton apart was that they have so many facets of their game that they could have a bad day on one and still contribute massively. Even then, Wilkinson played best with Catt or Greenwood (or both) alongside him to give an extra creative spark - his skill was execution, they added a bit of vision.

Farrell is, to my mind, a lot like Wilkinson. He executes very well across all the skills. But his vision and use of space is not as good as Ford's. England have consistently been a better attacking team when Ford is on the pitch, even if he himself isn't at the top of his game.

The question is whether the trade off of losing a bit of vision for gaining a bit of defensive solidity is worth it. Which comes down to whether England's cover defence can cope. At the moment, it's been OK, but it probably needs strengthening for the last two games. Haskell getting back up to speed should make a difference, as a lot of the defensive system relied on him getting up and in the face of the attack to reduce the pressure on Ford. I still think it needs Lawes or Itoje to step up their cover positioning.

Cyril wrote:

beshocked wrote:Even when you compare Ford to other previous England 10s like Flood and Wilkinson, Ford is worse in defence.

That's a bit of an unfair comparison. Jonny was one of the best (if not the best) defensive fly-halfs ever. Flood is a big guy for a 10 (about the same size as Sexton).

Unless I can't read, or Cyril has misquoted you. Yes you did, Beshocked.

edit* I did misread, just not this post!

Point stands, throwing Jonny Wilkinson into an argument about the defence of a 10 and then using it against said 10 is ridiculous. Regardles if you mentioned others.

beshocked wrote:cascough I didn't just mention Wilkinson. I mentioned numerous 10s but of course you have to single out Wilkinson....

Ford doesn't compare well to numerous 10s which is my point. Not - oh he's not as good as Wilkinson.

Russell and Ford are similar. Can't fault either for tenacity but they are players that can be targeted.

No I don't expect every fly half to be Jonny Wilkinsonesque but don't want them to be one of the worst 10 defenders in the 6 nations.

Obviously a fly half should be a good all rounder and Ford has weaknesses he must work on.

ruggerradge2611 I'd say Billy V on form is better than all of them. I guess that's the biggest issue, will he hit the ground running?

Billy is good, but having seen Stander this year for Munster in the pro12 and his brutal hatrick against Italy it has to be said he is the best ball carrying forward in the world right now.

Poorfour except it's not just Jonny superior, why just focus on the best defending 10? You and cascough cherrypicking Wilkinson not me.

Why should Lawes or Itoje have to go on baby sitting duty? Ford already has Farrell to look after the goalkicking and extra playmaker. What else?

I mention Wilkinson and Sexton and Flood and Biggar, you just hone in on the one guy - Wilkinson.

Do you think Carter was a bad defender?

ruggerradge2611 seems a bit of an exaggeration, hammering Italy doesn't make you the best in the world.... Stander wasn't good enough against Scotland. That's the game he needs to perform for 80 in.

Carter missed a fair few tackles. Farrell misses more than Ford.

cascough wrote:

To compare him to Wilkinson and then use that as a negative for Ford rather than a positive for Wilkinson is ridiculous.

Sexton is a decent defender, but I certainly wouldn't call him a dominant defender (the occasional tackle perhaps). Biggar and Russell are both tenacious (with the latter having the poorer technique IMO) but are still often passive defenders. Barrett, not a dominant defender. Foley, not a dominant defender. Many of these are good defenders, but you just can't go expecting your flyhalf to knock back 18 stone back rowers.

And your comment about the gainline is demonstrably false. That has more to do with Englands system than Fords defence, I'll grant you. Englands linespeed is such that even if Ford loses a metre in the tackle the opposition often don't get gainline success.

Lol

beshocked wrote:Poorfour except it's not just Jonny superior, why just focus on the best defending 10? You and cascough cherrypicking Wilkinson not me.

Why should Lawes or Itoje have to go on baby sitting duty? Ford already has Farrell to look after the goalkicking and extra playmaker. What else?

I mention Wilkinson and Sexton and Flood and Biggar, you just hone in on the one guy - Wilkinson.

Do you think Carter was a bad defender?

ruggerradge2611 seems a bit of an exaggeration, hammering Italy doesn't make you the best in the world.... Stander wasn't good enough against Scotland. That's the game he needs to perform for 80 in.

No Carter wasn't a bad defender. But you keep saying "bad" and then equate it to power in the tackle.

Do you really see it as that simple? If you're not powerful in the tackle then you are a bad defender, regardless of if (Like Ford) you are very good at the other facets of defence?

To be fair Guns, I've sold Sexton short there. Sexton is up there as being one of the best defenders in the world in terms of Fly Halves.

Poorfour wrote:Wilkinson is certainly an unfair comparison, given that the list of "flyhalves worse than Jonny Wilkinson in defence" is very close to the list of "every fly half who ever played except Jonny Wilkinson".

Not all fly halves are equal at all skills. What set Wilkinson, Carter and to some extent Sexton apart was that they have so many facets of their game that they could have a bad day on one and still contribute massively. Even then, Wilkinson played best with Catt or Greenwood (or both) alongside him to give an extra creative spark - his skill was execution, they added a bit of vision.

Farrell is, to my mind, a lot like Wilkinson. He executes very well across all the skills. But his vision and use of space is not as good as Ford's. England have consistently been a better attacking team when Ford is on the pitch, even if he himself isn't at the top of his game.

The question is whether the trade off of losing a bit of vision for gaining a bit of defensive solidity is worth it. Which comes down to whether England's cover defence can cope. At the moment, it's been OK, but it probably needs strengthening for the last two games. Haskell getting back up to speed should make a difference, as a lot of the defensive system relied on him getting up and in the face of the attack to reduce the pressure on Ford. I still think it needs Lawes or Itoje to step up their cover positioning.

Robshaws absence, showing just how valuable a player he is!

England badly miss Robshaw and Billy V

Really hope Robshaw gets a Lions nod

beshocked wrote:Poorfour except it's not just Jonny superior, why just focus on the best defending 10? You and cascough cherrypicking Wilkinson not me.

Why should Lawes or Itoje have to go on baby sitting duty? Ford already has Farrell to look after the goalkicking and extra playmaker. What else?

I mention Wilkinson and Sexton and Flood and Biggar, you just hone in on the one guy - Wilkinson.

Do you think Carter was a bad defender?

ruggerradge2611 seems a bit of an exaggeration, hammering Italy doesn't make you the best in the world.... Stander wasn't good enough against Scotland. That's the game he needs to perform for 80 in.

Correct, but he certainly did more against Italy with the ball in hand than any England player. It's not an exaggeration to say he's the best ball carrying forward, especially if I think he is. He has certainly left his mark on every match in this 6N including against Scotland having made a huge amount of carries and making a huge amount of ground. Scotland have faced Billy Vunipola before and I do keep an eye on sarries because of the Scottish interests at the club. He is good, and he is coming back from injury. Hence in my opinion Stander is the best ball carrying forward in the world right now.

Billy will have his chance to prove it in due course but we don't know what he'll be like on his return. For all Vunipola offers though I think England miss Robshaw more. Robshaw I think is the best backrow forward England have produced since Back.

Onto Stander though, he is an incredible player. Dynamic, strong and direct. He's been the pick of the backrows in this 6N IMO. Him and Hamish Watson anyway.

cascough wrote:

beshocked wrote:Poorfour except it's not just Jonny superior, why just focus on the best defending 10? You and cascough cherrypicking Wilkinson not me.

Why should Lawes or Itoje have to go on baby sitting duty? Ford already has Farrell to look after the goalkicking and extra playmaker. What else?

I mention Wilkinson and Sexton and Flood and Biggar, you just hone in on the one guy - Wilkinson.

Do you think Carter was a bad defender?

ruggerradge2611 seems a bit of an exaggeration, hammering Italy doesn't make you the best in the world.... Stander wasn't good enough against Scotland. That's the game he needs to perform for 80 in.

No Carter wasn't a bad defender. But you keep saying "bad" and then equate it to power in the tackle.

Do you really see it as that simple? If you're not powerful in the tackle then you are a bad defender, regardless of if (Like Ford) you are very good at the other facets of defence?

No it's not just about power in the tackle. It's about not needing to protect a player, not having a weakness that the opposition can exploit.

If you are knocked back more often than not you can't claim to be good. If you make a tackle but constantly need a team mate to help that doesn't make you a good defender.

It's just there is a system to make the weaker defender less exposed.

Most 10s don't need protection.


ruggerradge2611 Billy wasn't playing vs Italy though obviously. I don't think anyone would say England have a better ball carrier.

Stander IMO wasn't effective enough vs Scotland in the first half. If you think hammering Italy makes you best in the world fair enough.

Billy has nothing to prove personally.  Billy V outclassed him and the Irish backrow last year in the 6 nations.

Stander has to prove himself vs Billy V. It will be fascinating if they face in Ireland vs England.

There's a world of difference between hammering an Italy side that capitulated after 10 minutes and hammering every defence you play against; Picamoles is a better all round 8 than Billy but as far as ball carrying goes he's out on his own.