6N 2017: England vs Scotland

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ENGLAND v SCOTLAND
Saturday 10th March
16:00 GMT
Twickenham Stadium

Live on ITV, RTE, FR2, DMAX

Referee - Matthieu Raynal
AR1 - Romain Poite
AR2 - Marius Mitrea
TMO - Ben Skeen

A. Head to Head

134 Played 134
74 Won 42
18 Drawn 18
42 Lost 74
1,562 Points 1,141

B. Recent Form

6 February 2016
Murrayfield, Edinburgh
9 – 15 to England

14 March 2015
Twickenham, London
25 – 13 to England

8 February 2014
Murrayfield, Edinburgh
0 – 20 to England

2 February 2013
Twickenham, London
38 – 18 to England

4 February 2012
Murrayfield, Edinburgh
6 – 13 to England

C. Teams

ENGLAND


Starting XV:

15. Mike Brown (vice captain, Harlequins, 58 caps), 14. Jack Nowell  (Exeter Chiefs, 21 caps), 13. Jonathan Joseph (Bath Rugby, 31 caps), 12. Owen Farrell (vice captain, Saracens, 50 caps), 11. Elliot Daly (Wasps, 11 caps), 10. George Ford (Bath Rugby, 33 caps), 9. Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers, 68 caps), 1. Joe Marler (Harlequins, 49 caps), 2. Dylan Hartley (captain, Northampton Saints, 82 caps), 3. Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers, 72 caps), 4. Joe Launchbury (Wasps, 40 caps) , 5. Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints, 56 caps), 6. Maro Itoje (Saracens, 10 caps), 7. James Haskell (Wasps, 73 caps) , 8. Nathan Hughes (Wasps, 6 caps).

Finishers

16. Jamie George (Saracens, 15 caps), 17. Mako Vunipola (Saracens, 40 caps), 18. Kyle Sinckler (Harlequins, 6 caps), 19. Tom Wood (Northampton Saints, 48 caps), 20. Billy Vunipola (vice captain, Saracens 32 caps), 21. Danny Care (Harlequins, 69 caps), 22. Ben Te’o (Worcester Warriors, 6 caps), 23. Anthony Watson (Bath Rugby, 24 caps).

SCOTLAND


Starting XV

15. Stuart Hogg (Glasgow Warriors) – 51 caps; 16 tries, 3 pens, 89 points
14. Tommy Seymour (Glasgow Warriors) – 34 caps; 15 tries, 75 points
13. Huw Jones (Stormers) – 6 caps; 2 tries, 10 points
12. Alex Dunbar (Glasgow Warriors) – 22 caps; 6 tries, 30 points
11. Tim Visser (Harlequins) – 29 caps; 12 tries, 60 points
10. Finn Russell (Glasgow Warriors) – 25 caps; 2 tries, 5 cons, 8 pens, 44 points
9. Ali Price (Glasgow Warriors) – 3 caps

1. Gordon Reid (Glasgow Warriors) – 22 caps
2. Fraser Brown (Glasgow Warriors) – 23 caps
3. Zander Fagerson (Glasgow Warriors) – 7 caps
4. Richie Gray (Toulouse) – 63 caps; 3 tries, 15 points
5. Jonny Gray (Glasgow Warriors) – 31 caps; 2 tries, 10 points
6. John Barclay CAPTAIN (Scarlets) – 58 caps; 4 tries, 20 points
7. Hamish Watson (Edinburgh Rugby) – 8 caps; 1 try, 5 points
8. Ryan Wilson (Glasgow Warriors) – 25 caps

Substitutes:
16. Ross Ford (Edinburgh Rugby) – 105 caps; 2 tries, 10 points
17. Allan Dell (Edinburgh Rugby) – 6 caps
18. Simon Berghan (Edinburgh Rugby) – 1 cap
19. Tim Swinson (Glasgow Warriors) – 27 caps; 1 try, 5 points
20. Cornell Du Preez (Edinburgh Rugby) – uncapped
21. Henry Pyrgos (Glasgow Warriors) – 19 caps; 4 tries, 3 pens, 29 points
22. Duncan Weir (Edinburgh Rugby) – 25 caps; 2 tries, 7 cons, 10 pens, 1 drop, 57 points
23. Mark Bennett (Glasgow Warriors) – 19 caps; 6 tries, 30 points

How can I address it when you ignore evidence? You make a claim there hasn't been much difference in the set piece but George hasn't lost a lineout, he's got a 100% record. Hartley hasn't done too badly - lost 3 maybe? Still not the same. Now the scrum is slightly harder but almost every single time George comes on, regardless of the prop, he has improved the scrum, when he starts at club level, the scrum is stronger - this suggests that George  makes a difference. Yes you can bring up the "oh but he plays against tired guys", he doesn't at club level. Can't really say, it's all Mako when Mako isn't really famed as a beastly scrummager either.

rugbyjk there are cracks that a good side might exploit but so far sides haven't enough.

All 3 of France,Wales and Italy frustated though.

At the moment it reminds me of 2011, no prizes for guessing which side England lost to.

I genuinely think Scotland will be tough but should be able to do enough.

Wasn't the discussion a few days ago around the Itoje call. You think there's wasn't a mix up with that and everything went smoothly? As I said I don't think there's much difference between them at setpiece yu honestly think there is it would make that much difference against completely fresh starters and that Hartley would be able to exploit tired bodies for carrying later on in the game as george does?

Do you honestly think we were wiping he floor with teams last 6ns as that's not really how I remember it. But then I think jones can be bothered does care and Dow s develop players. That's for not insulting me in that post as I never have you and believe me that can be quite challenging! Just count to ten if I make a point you can't contest.

beshocked wrote:How can I address it when you ignore evidence? You make a claim there hasn't been much difference in the set piece but George hasn't lost a lineout, he's got a 100% record. Hartley hasn't done too badly - lost 3 maybe? Still not the same. Now the scrum is slightly harder but almost every single time George comes on, regardless of the prop, he has improved the scrum, when he starts at club level, the scrum is stronger - this suggests that George  makes a difference. Yes you can bring up the "oh but he plays against tired guys", he doesn't at club level. Can't really say, it's all Mako when Mako isn't really famed as a beastly scrummager either.

rugbyjk there are cracks that a good side might exploit but so far sides haven't.

I'm always cautious about getting involved in lover's quarrels, but George not starting is one if the biggest mysteries in Eddie Jones' England.

If You want an animal to lead the team, then fair enough, but Jones is way too smart not to realize that Jamie George is far better player. I have none of his level of analysis at my disposal and even I can see Jamie George is a better player.

Eddie Jones picked Hartley IMO because of his rancid disciplinary record and his antagonistic approach to rugby is something Hartley shares with his national coach.

All the while England keep winning though Eddie Jones can say "if it's not broke why tinker?"

beshocked wrote:hugehandoff the reason I say it doesn't seem like Jones cares because instead of focusing on the poor performance of England's players vs Italy he blamed the Italian tactics, sure England should have adapted sooner perhaps and been more streetwise but England have been lethargic throughout the tournament.

I don't agree that England didn't adapt quickly, I just thought their execution was poor (as it was in the first 10, BEFORE we saw the tactic, and as it was in many facets not relating to the breakdown).

But I do agree that Eddie Jones seemed to make an undue fuss about the Italian tactics.

My question to you is this. Which of the following is more likely.

A)He doesn't care about England's performance, and he really hopes World Rugby take a stand to give the fans the best viewing experience.

B)He was diverting attention away from how poor England actually were and will be doing what he can in training to fix it this week.

I would love to test a few things. George is clearly superior to Hartley, at least he makes an impact. If roles were reversed would Hartley? I don't know, I doubt it but it's working at the mo. I have my doubts re Cole, always have tbh. Is now he time to change it? No. We are missing robshaw and kruis, two leaders in the pack, would we want to lose anymore at the moment? No. Not at the moment. Brown, thought he played better last game but isn't breaking tackles like he once did. Would I like to see Watson or Nowell tried at 15? Yes, but not now. I could go on, I feel any individual changes (at the moment!) may upset the team more than would benefit the individual role.

You could argue that if, god forbid, we lost on Saturday the shackles would be lifted and a few experimental changes could be made eg pack and fb in particular.

no 7 & 1/2 Yup blame Itoje, don't blame the thrower. Not my fault guv, Itoje used mind control.

I can easily contest, I regularly dismantle your posts with evidence but you decide to ignore the evidence. That's frustating. Nope, he's playing well, despite the evidence to the contrary.

rugbyjk would you have not used the Italy game? I think it was an ideal opportunity.

Why wait till a loss though?

cascough

I think it's hard to know. Jones has been fiercely defending Hartley and I don't think he's doing it just to protect his captain's feelings. I genuinely think he believes Hartley is the best hooker in England.

Not sure, Jones uses so many mind games.

You'd think he would look to address the poor form of players by now if he thought it was an issue.

Actually yes I would have used the Italy game but I think this winning run is hindering us by adding extra pressure, as well as obviously a consecutive grand slam. First loss, and a few may well be for the chop.

I wonder if we're going to set a new record of a thread filling up before the game actually starts.

Have you lot not got some work to do?

So there was no confusion then fair enough. Just Hartley s fault now. You feel Hartley can bring the carrying george does in the latter part of the game? That's the best way around for the team? I can see why you want george in the team he's from your club etc I just don't understand why you feel the need to deminish Hartley to build.your case.

On a separate point I really don't think you're right that Jones hasn't helped players like george Itoje Sinckler Nowell et al develop.

I do wonder how much pressure this record thing may add, if the best all black sides (and bok?) Only ever managed 17 on the trot then it may well be an underestimated burden and could benefit the Scots.

beshocked wrote:

cascough

I think it's hard to know. Jones has been fiercely defending Hartley and I don't think he's doing it just to protect his captain's feelings. I genuinely think he believes Hartley is the best hooker in England.

Haha! let it go, mate. I didn't mention Geortley.

It's on recent record Jones turned billy v around to becoming a top 8?!

Well, Hartley has won 17 on the trot in an England jersey as captain. By some peoples theory, that would make him the best hooker in the world rugby, not just England.

Is it 17 now?

Rugbyjk wrote:Is it 17 now?

Well, 16 for Hartley. 17 for England. Scotland game is to equal the record.

Wasn't sure if 16 or 17?

Thought 17 was to equal record, ergo only 16 won to date.

no 7 & 1/2 There are you go again, trying to deflect, ignore the evidence, say it's because he plays for my club. No I just think he's the best hooker in England. Hartley hasn't played well but you seem to be insistent that he has.

We've been over this before. You think players have had good matches when the evidence suggests otherwise. Hartley is just another case.

We don't know what George can do with a start because he's not been given the opportunity, same with Sinckler.

I don't think being a permanent bench warmer is good for a player's development personally.

No 7&1/2 wrote:So there was no confusion then fair enough. Just Hartley s fault now. You feel Hartley can bring the carrying george does in the latter part of the game? That's the best way around for the team? I can see why you want george in the team he's from your club etc I just don't understand why you feel the need to deminish Hartley to build.your case.

On a separate point I really don't think you're  right that Jones hasn't helped players like george Itoje Sinckler Nowell et al develop.

Hartley kind of does that by himself. Take his deplorable disciplinary record out of it, he's not exactly been on fire. He's firmly in 5th place for a Lions trip on ability behind Best, Owens, George and Brown.

The team he happens to be the captain for are winning games but that's in spite of him, not because of him.

I really don't rate Hartley either. He is accurate at the lineout but IMO England's scrum functions better when George is at hooker. George also carries more effectively both for Sarries and when he comes off the bench, his lineout work is also very soid, he is good in the loose, he hits rucks and is an all round better player.

I appreciate that some of this may be distorted by him coming off the bench, a smiliar thing happened with Tipuric for Wales. He would come on instead of Warburton and make a huge impact. However when Tipuric and Warburton have been starting at the same time Warburton has looked far more effective. Unfortunately this scenario isn't possible when your playing position is hooker.

Forget Beshocked for a moment and argue why Hartley is better than George, because I need convincing too!

George has now got the record of most capped player for England without a start hasn't he? He'll have that for a while. To twist the argument I think Hartley and george are our best hooker s but there is an argument that if george starts that may be better hookers for the impact off the bench. Does that come into jones thinking. Ie you strengthen the starting team but diminish he overall team?

We don't know what Hartley brings in re leadership skills, IE over the top follow me.

Beshocked, get what you're saying re confidence abt warming the bench. I would've hated it in my day, but with it being a "23 man game" now, do they still see it as that or they are just as important as "finishers"?

As I've indicated above rugger I don't believe overall as a pure player he is though as has been pointed out to me george is unproven as a starter. He does bring leadership though and good leadership and it's about the combo of them two players and how that best works for England. I'd also.also contest Hartley is behind best owens and Brown as well!

rugbyjk let's be honest everyone wants to start or at least being given an opportunity to do so.

Look at May the guy has been numerous starts then dropped, then started again then dropped again.

Nowell is one of the most unlucky seems to be dropped inexplicably, not just by Jones but was by Lancaster too. Bring him off the bench and hey presto 2 tries vs Italy.

Joseph has been dropped but is likely to be reinstated.

The problem is if you write off a player as a "finisher" before he's given an opportunity to start is that fair?

Cole,Hartley and Brown are 3 players that Jones has stuck with through thick and thin, those seem to be are weakest positions at the moment. Surely England needs to look at other options?

Well done no 7 & 1/2, give the man a cookie, George is unproven as a starter - thanks to Jones. Should never pick him to start because of that.

Have we or have we not just won 16/17 games on the bounce?

Again, if it isn't broken don't fix it.

Once it is a disproven formula then make the changes, surely?

Not a big fan of cookies. You keep skimming around the point of what the combo offers beshocked but never really get to it. Does george starting with Hartley benched add more for the extra ten min george gets add more than Hartley starting with Georges superior skill set off the bench. And would you really risk an unproven player when the gs is still on? Yu used to be very against this

Rugbyjk wrote:Have we or have we not just won 16/17 games on the bounce?

Again, if it isn't broken don't fix it.

Once it is a disproven formula then make the changes, surely?

When it's too late? If it ain't broke don't fix it is an outdated maxim. Kaizen is the best way of working.

beshocked wrote:Cole,Hartley and Brown are 3 players that Jones has stuck with through thick and thin, those seem to be are weakest positions at the moment. Surely England needs to look at other options?

To be fair to Mike Brown, he has been Eddie Jones' Mr Reliable up until this tournament, and I think Anthony Watson's injury and recent form has probably delayed what will, I suspect, be his instalment as England's next 15. If not Brown and Watson, then who?

I'm pretty easy on the whole Hartley vs George debate. George looks to the be man on form, with Hartley having done it in the past for Jones. The case for George starting is an easy one to make, but he's also been a very effective impact sub and perhaps Jones wants him in that role for the next couple of games. I would probably give George a start, but I think Jones will go with Hartley.

I think Cole, with Sinckler on the bench, is the correct combination for now.

Not skimming, the combo, if Hartley isn't good enough he should be dropped completely.

Jones could have tried it vs Italy but didn't.

Starting George vs Italy was not risky. Should have got 50-60 minutes.

Similarly could have tried Sinckler instead of Cole starting but didn't.

FES I don't think Brown was particularly good in last year's 6 nations either. You are right alternatives have been a bit thin but could have tried someone out some time.

I can understand starting Cole vs Scotland but it was Sinckler vs Italy where the opportunity was wasted.

Christ, kaizens been around for yonks. This is getting the grand slam as key objective not a continuous improvement business model. Unless of course the record and GS are deemed unimportant, maybe not even the world cup as these are irrelevant in comparison to continual improvement. Which is it? Forsake the records/ trophies (possibly) striving/ hoping for improvement, or get the next trophy in the cabinet and then develop further?

Rugbyjk wrote:Christ, kaizens been around for yonks. This is getting the grand slam as key objective not a continuous improvement business model. Unless of course the record and GS are deemed unimportant, maybe not even the world cup as these are irrelevant in comparison to continual improvement. Which is it? Forsake the records/ trophies (possibly) striving/ hoping for improvement, or get the next trophy in the cabinet and then develop further?

They aren't mutually exclusive. You don't have to hold off improvements to win. In fact if you can improve, it makes winning easier.

rugbyjk well I've always said that without changes England won't beat Ireland.

Billy coming back might be enough but maybe not.

Depends if you think we will beat Scotland and Ireland without changes, I think Scotland just about but not Ireland as things stand.

But you kind of side stepped the point yet again. If George starting strengthens the starting team but overall the team for the day is weakened as.I think it would be would you do it? Or start George an unproven starter and pick an unproven bench player as well? You must admit that some players aren't suited for a bench?

Now isn't the time to experiment.

Hartley is better defensively, that's quite an obvious one. He makes a lot of tackles and has a good technique of going low. Hartley is also very good in the set piece, he rarely has an off day with his darts and is a good scrummager.

Is George a better scrummager? Hard to tell until he starts. Playing against a tired or 2nd string front row isn't a real comparison.

George is better in the loose though and adds real impact. I do think his effect slows down though which again points the fact that he's a better impact player than he would be starter. Hartley would not have the same impact as George from the bench also.

I'm a George fan but I can see why Hartley starts, it's close one though.

Cole v Snckler is a different debate. Cole is the superior scrummager, thats why he starts.

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:Onto the ref we will have on Saturday, I'm glad he saw and let Glasgow play at full pelt and saw that prison shaming at Welford Road.

He'll be well used to the pace and intensity Glasgow and by extension Scotland will play with and knows what to expect.

In response to this I expect the huge English pack to try an negate that sort of game plan at source by trying to hold players up and try and maul us off the park.

But isn't that anti rugby, and fans should ask for their money back, and if that is rugby everyone should retire

(BTW - meant in jest)

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Hartley is better defensively, that's quite an obvious one. He makes a lot of tackles and has a good technique of going low.

Probably right generally but he has the most missed tackles in the 6 Nations.

IanBru wrote:This thread is like the Tet Offensive, but without the good music.

Scottrf wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Hartley is better defensively, that's quite an obvious one. He makes a lot of tackles and has a good technique of going low.

Probably right generally but he has the most missed tackles in the 6 Nations.

Quite surprised with this as he generally gets good stats and is very effective. He does tend to chance his arm slightly and rush up with the chop tackle, you can see how he chalks up quite a few missed.

no 7 & 1/2 the person side stepping is you. Ignoring evidence as usual. We don't know if the team would be weakened because George hasn't been given an opportunity.

Sgt Pooly don't what you've been smoking but Hartley was joint top of missed tackles after first 2 rounds. Don't know how he did in round 3.

Can't really make a case for him being better defensively. George statistically generally makes more tackles than Hartley. George topped the tackle count in the ERCC in 2015.

George strengthens the scrum and does it regularly either for club or country. Starting for his club too.

You call yourself a George fan but basically spout a load of things that aren't true.

Cole has been a penalty machine, especially vs Italy.

beshocked wrote:hugehandoff the reason I say it doesn't seem like Jones cares because instead of focusing on the poor performance of England's players vs Italy he blamed the Italian tactics, sure England should have adapted sooner perhaps and been more streetwise but England have been lethargic throughout the tournament.

Even though people understandably sometimes get sick of my rants you know as well as I do that some players should be given more opportunities.

Brown in my opinion has been average for some time yet there's no plan to replace him.

Cole and Hartley in my opinion should be eased out or at least galvanised to perform better.

Jones blaming the Italian tactics was an obvious strategy to deflect blame away from him, his coaches and the players. I agree re Brown and would love to see Daly or Watson given a run at 15. Brown is awesome in defence, has a decent boot and runs hard, but he is unable to link effectively with his wings. Overall he is a decent player, but I think Daly or Watson could be better. Cole I have always been concerned about and had hoped that someone else would put their hand up. Shame that the two Northampton tightheads did not do so. Hartley I do rate overall, but obviously George is on better current form. Given sufficient game time I expect Hartley to justify his selection, but I also think Jamie George might develop into a world class hooker. An underpowered Hartley has not helped England to date, but he should go better against the Scots.

Didn't Jones say they are looking to improve every game?

That doesn't necessarily mean changing the players.

The other day I became overly preoccupied with bench. Considered Scotland's fagerson to be a weaker scrummager and therefore we could give marler the day off and go with mako then genge. I was reminded a few things and now I agree, go with marler, pressure the scrums etc. You could argue if robshaw, kruis were playing, if billy v and mako been around in each game and on fire, Jones be more confident ( having a core available) to make changes.

However, they haven't.

Can someone confirm if England are on 16 or 17 wins please and if Scotland will level it?

I think the record and GS are all that matters to Jones at the mo. Yes, I wish we had experimented a bit more, but for god's sake look how far we have come in a year, look at where we are and what we may be achieving and stop moaning!

This is about England, not petty interclub rivalries that frankly I don't understand as i was too busy playing!

Beshocked. If people ask me a question ill answer it as it's forum of give and take. If you're not side stepping the point I'm making could you just point out where you answered it?

rugbyjk where's the improvement then?

Won't get the record and GS unless England improve. It's all well and good saying, focus on the GS, it ain't broken.

Some people will only notice the cracks when we've lost. I just think they should be addressed beforehand.

Look at how far we've come.... still no proper 12, no proper 7, an underperforming 2, an underperforming 3, underperforming 15 and a poorly performing 8.

Development of players wise still a lot to do.

Jones hasn't actually yet fixed too many issues Lancaster had, he's added a bit of resilience admittedly but the personnel is not dramatically different.

He'll revert back to Billy, sticks with Hartley just like Lancaster, likes the Robshaw-Haskell combo, is still sticking with Brown and Cole. Kept Lancaster's decision of Farrell at 12.

Why does ever thread just end up with everyone arguing with BS?

Stats are stats, Hartley makes more effective tackles than George imo. Hartley missed 1 tackle against Italy which is more like it.

I'm not smoking anything, thanks for asking. I like both hookers but Hartley is the proven starting hooker and captain, I can't see any real reason to drop him. George is a cracking impact player, pretty sure he won't look as good as a starter but his time will come. We have 2 good options.

Cole is an excellent scrummager, Sinckler isn't at his level.

Anyway.....I'm done. Good luck with talking to a brick wall

I really hope the English players bicker amongst themselves as much as their fans on here :-)

R!skysports wrote:I really hope the English players bicker amongst themselves as much as their fans on here :-)

With Danny Care, Mike Brown and Owen Farrell in the dressing room I'm pretty sure that's true!

Sgt Poorly stats are stats indeed and you ignore most. You say Hartley is a better defender and I wreck your argument with evidence. Like crushing an ant with a boot.

You and no 7 & 1/2 are seriously deluded.

Disagree actually. George made lots of tackles vs Wales when Wales were threatening a bit, his workrate IMO helped keep the Welsh attacks out. I would say his effectiveness in that instance was good indeed.

The reason to drop Hartley is simple - he's not playing well enough, he's not leading well enough and George is outperforming him in all facets. Everything - lineout,scrum,defence,carries, assists and so on.

It's not about which club each player plays for or even to do with Hartley's shocking discipline.

It's simple picking the player that will mostly likely help England win and I believe that is George.


If you don't want England to win fair enough. I am sure you'll get plenty of support from our Scottish and Irish friends with those thoughts.