England in West Indies

First topic message reminder :

England are in the Caribbean for a few one day games...Tom Curran is the first Curran to make an England squad replacing the injured Jake Ball and it seems Jonny Bairstow will replace Sam Billings who has failed badly in the two warm up games

Also WI Presidents XI had a fat dude who did really well

Gooseberry wrote:

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:Windies realise this is an ODI and not a test right?

India are jealous of 225 as a test score

Nice one, Goose. Even if you did have to wait an hour and a half to use it.

I don't think I will ever understand Stokes coming in ahead of Buttler in ODI's.

Pig's ear a real possibility as England lose their 6th wicket still 100 shy ....

Indeed, this is a right man sausage up. Can see some changes for the next match if they somehow contrive to lose this. Hales should be fit and Bairstow as ever looks a good option

It's alright guys

Chrissy Woakes has got this

One of our better batsmen of the last 12 months! Also, the next two in can certainly hold a bat

Don't worry windies still have to bowl the medium pacers a fair few more overs.

Well the spinners have done now. Bishoo and Nurse aka the West Indian Warne and Murali. Lucky to survive 20 overs from those two!

VTR wrote:Well the spinners have done now. Bishoo and Nurse aka the West Indian Warne and Murali. Lucky to survive 20 overs from those two!

I will never ever understand why teams don't just have like 4 spinners against England everytime - even rubbish ones they struggle with!

I'd play 5, and make sure at least three of them are leggies

VTR wrote:Well the spinners have done now. Bishoo and Nurse aka the West Indian Warne and Murali Lyon and O'Keefe. Lucky to survive 20 overs from those two!

fixed

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:It's alright guys

Chrissy Woakes has got this

Excellent recovery from Root and Olly's man Woakes saves England's blushes and sees us to another win.

The next time Root gets slated for his strike rate, worth keeping in mind it's not always so relevant as he demonstrated today when getting us home.

Can we slate him for not making 100 instead?

Gooseberry wrote:Can we slate him for not making 100 instead?

Not in this game. You'll have to wait at least for the next Test.

A good win in the end - Olly called it with the dependable Chris Woakes in the mix again. He had some luck but made it count

Concerns for England are:
Buttler in absolutely horrible form - needs some cricket away from internationals to rebuild
Spinners especially Rashid not all that convincing and comfortably outbowled by their opposite numbers
I feel against such a poor Windies team we shouldn't even be giving them a chance let alone a full blown middle order collapse for the millionth time

And on another note, Mr Braithwaite is annoyingly showing himself up to be a very average cricketer who makes Luke Wright look like Viv Richards. Damn him and those four sixes in a row!

VTR wrote:A good win in the end - Olly called it with the dependable Chris Woakes in the mix again. He had some luck but made it count

Concerns for England are:
Buttler in absolutely horrible form - needs some cricket away from internationals to rebuild
Spinners especially Rashid not all that convincing and comfortably outbowled by their opposite numbers
I feel against such a poor Windies team we shouldn't even be giving them a chance let alone a full blown middle order collapse for the millionth time

And on another note, Mr Braithwaite is annoyingly showing himself up to be a very average cricketer who makes Luke Wright look like Viv Richards. Damn him and those four sixes in a row!

I'd play Buttler as a specialist batsman next game - Billings is a better gloveman anyway, & Buttler's batting is worth a spot on his own

I think Billings is most under threat in the team, because he's only really filling in for Hales. If Buttler isn't keeping wicket I couldn't justify him as a specialist bat at the moment. Bairstow would offer a more in form alternative. I expect Buttler to get the next game now the series isn't on the line to see if he can find some form

Buttler's not going to be dropped. Yes he's been struggling a bit in the last few games (India and here, scored crucial runs in Bangladesh), but talk of leaving him out is IMO a little silly.

VTR wrote:

And on another note, Mr Braithwaite is annoyingly showing himself up to be a very average cricketer who makes Luke Wright look like Viv Richards. Damn him and those four sixes in a row!

...or a good cricketer with a poor attitude. This was certainly the view of Amrose and others on TMS.

Yes he seems lazy. So has talent but no application, other than for that one aforementioned over! Does make the whole package average, which is sadly the same story as a lot of Windies cricketers over the last decade or so

Interesting to see Mason Crane is playing for New South Wales in the Shield today - first overseas player to do so since Imran Khan

He took 1 wicket for 24 from 5 overs

Great opportunity for him

Electric Demon wrote:Interesting to see Mason Crane is playing for New South Wales in the Shield today - first overseas player to do so since Imran Khan

He took 1 wicket for 24 from 5 overs

Great opportunity for him

graeme Hick, Andy Flower and a few other Zimbabweans have played from what I can remember

Maybe ED was referring to the first overseas player to play for NSW, rather than in the Shield? Seem to recall the odd overseas player in the Shield over the years, though they're few and far between in general.

Yeah he's the first for NSW was what I meant.

Still a noteable achievement

Was wondering if Hales might be a bit rusty after not much cricket - needn't have worried and England look a lot stronger with him in the side

Hales gone for 110. Fine knock from him, showing his worth to the side there. Root showing why it's not a good idea to drop him twice cheaply early on.

Don't think the pitch is as flat as England (and WI's bowling) are making it look.

Buttler in next? Could be a good opportunity for him to get some form back.

Buttler fails again - need him back and firing for the Champions Trophy. I assume he will play quite a bit of the IPL so hopefully that gets him back in form

Making slightly hard work of converting the start (219-1 about 34 overs) into the big total it should be . Root stuck in the 90s for some time, mainly due to a lack of strike, and wickets going at the other end. 258-4 with 8 overs left, should be well over 300 (325-340 depending on how well someone sticks with Root)

Root does something very un Root like, and gets to 100 and then gets out...

should have been getting near 350 in this, doesnt look like we will now. we'll get away with it away the windies but against the top sides these mini collapses will cost us

VTR wrote:Buttler fails again - need him back and firing for the Champions Trophy. I assume he will play quite a bit of the IPL so hopefully that gets him back in form

Seems like going ok in the tests has affected his ODI stuff

I'm disappointed Dawson hasn't been given a game over Moeen

This is abysmal from the Windies

Actually the stage I wrote that will be looked back on as a position of strength as Plunkett takes two in two for it to be 45-6

England are gonna have themselves a bit of a selection conundrum when David Willey returns from injury. Plunkett has staked a big claim this series

VTR wrote:Actually the stage I wrote that will be looked back on as a position of strength as Plunkett takes two in two for it to be 45-6

Understood, VTR.

You can only beat who you are up against etc etc but disappointing not to have a stiffer challenge, particularly as to what may be coming this summer.

Connected with that and Jimbo's post, today would have provided a good opportunity to give at least one of the squad players a game. Let's not wait for an injury before a semi-final!

One thing England have scotched is that talk of pressure on Hales from Billings. I can't remember who said it and won't see to embarrass themy but yeah ....
If there's pressure anywhere based on recent form it would be Butler but again the guy is a class act and a couple of dodgy months cross formats doesn't change that. The experiment with him in tests was ill founded and he as much as anyone has the right to be knackered after the ridiculous winter schedule. I expect him to be back destroying bowling attacks for the last 10 overs come summer.

Sure this was a pretty limp end against sub standard opposition but at least England turned up for the game unlike the last two and we got to see something nearer their potential. They haven't lost it.

If you thing back a few years England have struggled or cone unstuck in meaningress and even meaningfull ODIS against opposition of this level.

So I'm talking it as a positive and settling down to laugh at Australia's "all rounders " debate content that Englands winter from hell is done and ended with positive signs for the champions trophy

Gooseberry wrote:One thing England have scotched is that talk of pressure on Hales from Billings. I can't remember who said it and won't see to embarrass themy but yeah ....
If there's pressure anywhere based on recent form it would be Butler but again the guy is a class act and a couple of dodgy months cross formats doesn't change that. The experiment with him in tests was ill founded and he as much as anyone has the right to be knackered after the ridiculous winter schedule. I expect him to be back destroying bowling attacks for the last 10 overs come summer.

Sure this was a pretty limp end against sub standard opposition but at least England turned up for the game unlike the last two and we got to see something nearer their potential. They haven't lost it.

If you thing back a few years England have struggled or cone unstuck in meaningress and even meaningfull ODIS against opposition of this level.

So I'm talking it as a positive and settling down to laugh at Australia's "all rounders " debate content that Englands winter from hell is done and ended with positive signs for the champions trophy

UPDATE: Following the publication of the above post, a spokesman for Mr Gooseberry said this morning that Mr Gooseberry stood fully behind what was written but declined to comment on suggestions that he regarded ''England as having the Champions Trophy in the bag''.

Some thoughts from me.

First off, I shall shamelessly blow my own trumpet and point out the accuracy of my comment above
"Don't think the pitch is as flat as England (and WI's bowling) are making it look."

Sure WI's batting was dreadful, but I think that was a tricky-ish pitch to bat on, very two-paced with tennis ball bounce and the odd ball exploding/going through the top. Shows how good Root and Hales's innings were, and to a degree why England found it difficult to really explode in the last ten overs. Not an easy pitch to come in and score quickly on. In that light, nice cameo from Stokes, made the difference between a score of 310-315 or so and 328 with some fine hitting.

Buttler looks a bit jaded I agree. Tough winter schedule (I could "happily" rant about that one for a while). Think the IPL comes at a decent time for him, and a few good knocks there should see him back in shape quickly enough.

On the squad rotation thing, I'm going to play devil's advocate for a second. Say England bring in Curran for the last game (instead of, most likely, Woakes), and Curran does well, takes 2-30 or so. Do England really learn much? Is it enough to say that he belongs at this level? For me, England will learn as much if not more from the Lions series and from the coaches getting a closer look at him in the nets. I'd rather England worked on their main plans, with a view to the Champions Trophy, than use a dead rubber to just get a look at someone.

guildfordbat wrote:

Gooseberry wrote:One thing England have scotched is that talk of pressure on Hales from Billings. I can't remember who said it and won't see to embarrass themy but yeah ....
If there's pressure anywhere based on recent form it would be Butler but again the guy is a class act and a couple of dodgy months cross formats doesn't change that. The experiment with him in tests was ill founded and he as much as anyone has the right to be knackered after the ridiculous winter schedule. I expect him to be back destroying bowling attacks for the last 10 overs come summer.

Sure this was a pretty limp end against sub standard opposition but at least England turned up for the game unlike the last two and we got to see something nearer their potential. They haven't lost it.

If you thing back a few years England have struggled or cone unstuck in meaningress and even meaningfull ODIS against opposition of this level.

So I'm talking it as a positive and settling down to laugh at Australia's "all rounders " debate content that Englands winter from hell is done and ended with positive signs for the champions trophy

UPDATE: Following the publication of the above post, a spokesman for Mr Gooseberry said this morning that Mr Gooseberry stood fully behind what was written but declined to comment on suggestions that he regarded ''England as having the Champions Trophy in the bag''.

I was thinking more "Not losing to an associate meber for a change" as being a positivie acheivement for England in comparisson to some of the recent cups

(And yes Im aware they dont even qualify for the thing )

Mad for Chelsea wrote:Some thoughts from me.

...

On the squad rotation thing, I'm going to play devil's advocate for a second. Say England bring in Curran for the last game (instead of, most likely, Woakes), and Curran does well, takes 2-30 or so. Do England really learn much? Is it enough to say that he belongs at this level? For me, England will learn as much if not more from the Lions series and from the coaches getting a closer look at him in the nets. I'd rather England worked on their main plans, with a view to the Champions Trophy, than use a dead rubber to just get a look at someone.

Hi MfC - although I'm sure Goose won't accept this , I wasn't particularly advocating Curran's selection. Furthermore, I was strongly not in favour of making wholesale changes.

I do agree with you that England should be working on their main plans for the Champions Trophy. Where we appear to disagree is as to what that may involve. For me, I would have thought it useful in all the circumstances yesterday and still within the main plans to give some game experience to someone who is, say, 12th or 13th in line.

If Curran isn't that high up the pecking order (and he probably isn't), don't play him - no issue there. However, if, as appears likely, Dawson is going to make the Champions Trophy squad and be understudying Moeen, then I would have thought yesterday might have been an appropriate time for him to do more than warm the bench. As I posted earlier, we don't want to be faced with an injury and have to bring players into Champions Trophy games as the tournament goes on (and we hopefully progress) who are under prepared.

How big are the CT squads? Is it the usual 15? If so, you'd expect England's XI from yesterday to be joined by Billings (top order reserve), Bairstow (middle order reserve), Dawson (reserve spinner) and Willey ("reserve" seamer, not sure if he'd be first choice ahead of Finn/Plunkett or not). Possibly Ball instead of Bairstow (both in if it's a squad of 16). England's hierarchy in ODIs seems clear, with the seamers the only question mark.

On the Curran issue, it wasn't particularly addressed at you guildford, but there were various posts suggesting that given the poor opposition it would have been a nice opportunity for England to give some fringe players a go to see what they could do. My post was pointing out that "see what they could do" in this series would feel rather pointless and not sure you learn too much.

It's a fair point about Dawson, for match practise as much as anything else. However, England probably felt there was more benefit in sticking to their plan A*, and giving Ali and Rashid a few extra overs. While it's good to have all options covered, neither Ali nor Rashid is particularly injury prone (has Moeen missed a game through injury since breaking into the England side?). Not something I feel particularly strongly about either way TBH, and one I suspect will make little to no difference in the end.

I'd agree there isn't much merit in blooding players against poor opposition, it could give a false impression of their abilities which sets them up to be found out against a quality opponent. Anyone remember Ravi Bopara batting at number 3 in an Ashes series!

Mad for Chelsea wrote:How big are the CT squads? Is it the usual 15? If so, you'd expect England's XI from yesterday to be joined by Billings (top order reserve), Bairstow (middle order reserve), Dawson (reserve spinner) and Willey ("reserve" seamer, not sure if he'd be first choice ahead of Finn/Plunkett or not). Possibly Ball instead of Bairstow (both in if it's a squad of 16). England's hierarchy in ODIs seems clear, with the seamers the only question mark.

On the Curran issue, it wasn't particularly addressed at you guildford, but there were various posts suggesting that given the poor opposition it would have been a nice opportunity for England to give some fringe players a go to see what they could do. My post was pointing out that "see what they could do" in this series would feel rather pointless and not sure you learn too much.

It's a fair point about Dawson, for match practise as much as anything else. However, England probably felt there was more benefit in sticking to their plan A*, and giving Ali and Rashid a few extra overs. While it's good to have all options covered, neither Ali nor Rashid is particularly injury prone (has Moeen missed a game through injury since breaking into the England side?). Not something I feel particularly strongly about either way TBH, and one I suspect will make little to no difference in the end.

Fair enough in turn, MfC. Yes, some Surrey supporters are bleating about Curran not getting a game yesterday. As you would probably expect, I'm far more old school and don't go along with giving someone an international cap just because it's ''nice'' to do so.

I accept Ali and Rashid (when he's not worried about his grandmother ) have good records of fitness unlike, for example and keeping it on a fairly recent Surrey theme, that walking sicknote Tremlett. However, anyone can take a blow in the nets the morning of a game - be warned I'll be all over you like a cheap suit if that happens!

I didn't actually realise how soon the Ireland ODIS rock around. They coincide with IPL so there will be significant enforced experimentation and opportunities for all manner of wheelie bins and tins of custard.

Gone are the days of a 30 man Provisional squad to be announced 2 months before CT. I quite liked to see all the players who hoped to play. Now it's a 15 man squad to be announced 1 month beforehand. Squads can be changed 7 days before the start of the CT.

So if its only 15 I guess the last 11 plus billings willey and Dawson. Then a choice of another seamer or bairstow. Very slim chance of any wildcards forcing their way in.
The only part of the side I have reservations about are the spinners...but as endlessly noted there's not people sat in the wings waiting to push Ali, Dawson and rashid for a squad place. If anything the question would be do we need a third spinner and could England cope just playing one. It's unlikelyour they'll rock the boat and break the formula all the same.
Pending injuries obviously. In some ways having a small squad will help concentrate the line up and England have been more settled in the make up of their side than I can ever remember.

ECB - Flower
Obviously Livingstone was a stand-out performer with the bat throughout the series,” he said, “and if he has a strong North-South Series I can see him pushing for an international place fairly soon in the limited overs forms of the game. He’s shown a real understanding of how to play spin, shown tremendous power, and he’s shown the capacity to learn quite quickly. With his part-time off-spin, he’s stolen some tactics used by the Sri Lankans.

Gooseberry wrote:One thing England have scotched is that talk of pressure on Hales from Billings. I can't remember who said it and won't see to embarrass themy but yeah ....

Ha ha... I am "outing" myself here  (presume Goose is referring to comments I made a while back) :  though I'm not at all embarrassed. If I recall correctly ,  I simply questioned whether Billings , if he had a string of very good performances might put some pressure on Hales after his self-inflicted absence from the limited overs squad.  I didn't actually suggest that this was the likely course of events !

Just for the record I am a Hales fan who once urged him for the Test side (sadly that didn't exactly work and I confess to having pretty much abandoned the idea) and am delighted to see him coming back with a bang

Agree with the general feeling on here that the Champions squad is nearly settled , health and fitness permitting. Only question would seem to be the last couple of "spares" : spinner or pace man or extra batsman. Suspect they will feel they have enough bats and make sure the bowling reserves are overflowing...