Jeff chat

First topic message reminder :

As LT has retired his excellent pen I thought it would be useful to have a running thread to discuss the Jeff games/ rounds. Entirely self-serving of course given my undoubted preference of club over country

Can see the Tigers v Falcons being a high scorer!

formerly known as Sam wrote:

beshocked wrote:Sam I think a team that has similar strengths to Saracens is more lethal because Saracens likes playing teams like Quins,Wasps and Glasgow generally.

Teams that like to attack are more vulnerable to the counter.

Now perhaps you might argue Leinster are the best, I'd rather face them than Clermont.

Saracens-Clermont have been very tough affairs. We haven't faced Leinster in a while but we are much stronger than them.

Sarries do struggle against hard packs. Leinster have one of those. Second row isn't the biggest strength but they have a very good front row (two thirds of which are favourites to star the first Lions test) and an awesome backrow, Conan I really rate at 8 also Heaslip and SOB are big names and rightly so.

And Murphy, JVDF etc- their back row is ludicrously strong

Fuzzy Dunlop wrote:Early signs that O'Connor doesn't share Mauger's enthusiasm for Fitzgerald at 6. Looking back I can't recall seeing Williams, Hamilton and O'Connor all lining up together to start since Cockerill's departure, but my memory is poor.  (E: was used against Bristol in the 50-17 victory.)

Great to see Harrison back, the rumours led me to believe we wouldn't be seeing until next season. Again Rizzo and Cilliers missing, presumably injured but as far as I know nothing has been said.

On the radio show they were talking about Harrison and Tait having late fitness tests so they could still drop out on the day.

Fitzgerald on the bench covering lock where he belongs, that's a good sign. It's probably the best we've got a the minute though the knocks to Cilliers and Rizzo are blows. Those guys were showing good form when covering during the six nations and would reduce the amount of time we need Cole and Genge on the field.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

Fitzgerald on the bench covering lock where he belongs, that's a good sign. It's probably the best we've got a the minute though the knocks to Cilliers and Rizzo are blows. Those guys were showing good form when covering during the six nations and would reduce the amount of time we need Cole and Genge on the field.

Interestingly Fitzgerald remains on the bench even with Hamilton's withdrawal. I'm liking the look of the new backrow with O'Connor at 8 and Thacker at 7. I had thought it would end up this way with Evans forcing his way in to the 7 shirt but I'm more than happy to see Thacker there instead.

Given its a dry day putting Fitzgerald into the backrow wouldn't be ideal. Extra mobility makes sense. What's worrying is that we've not got another backrow option to come on to the bench.

Falcons giving up a lot of penalties early doors.

Tigers pack on top but Burns isn't controlling the game at all. Far too many phases around the middle of the park and optimistic passes leading to handling errors meant Tigers have largely wasted their dominance. Scrum is all Tigers.

Newcastle have got some intensity but no ball. Young didn't help them with his slow delivery but they've not got their lethal back three into the game at all.

Daft by Genge - not sure what that was all about

Heaf wrote:Daft by Genge - not sure what that was all about

There's been a lot of off the ball stuff and Genge isn't known for letting things go or taking a step back. Two tries and demolishing Wilson at the scrum, I'm happy if that comes with a little aggression. As long as he doesn't get himself banned.

I love that he's tough and aggressive but I hope he doesn't do anything that childish again.

He's matured a lot already so I think it's just a one off brain fart. Leicester need uncompromising hard bastards, not Ashton or Brown style wind up merchants.

Ref has bottled that decision. Falcons scrum goes back and then stands up. Stone cold penalty. Ref doesn't want to go back to more scrums so shouts use it.

Sensational try by Benny.

What a try by Youngs,

Scottrf wrote:What a try by Youngs,

A timely reminder to Mr Gatland ahead of his announcement next week. Key try with Bath losing.

I love being made to look a fool Really thought that Bath had turned a corner and Tigers would need to pick up 15 points form the final 3 games.

Scoreline made it look better than it was tbh, still far too many handling errors (commentary said 12 at 70 minutes) but fortunately Newcastle made even more. YBY great individual try but I want to see a replay of the 3rd try as on first viewing his quick handling looked even more impressive than his later solo score. Missed a bit in the final 10 as I was anxiously watching the Worcester match.

That was an odd game to watch between Tigers and Falcons. A lot of errors from both sides. It felt like both sides wanted to speed up play but poor execution prevented it. A bit frustrating to watch but will obviously take it as a Tigers fan.

I thought that Joel Hodgson had a reasonable game under consistent pressure. Will Welch is a pain in the a*** to watch your side play against!

The Tigers front row played well from the starters through all three subs. The same for our locks as well. Thacker had another busy game at 7. O'Connor showed that he's a useful option at 8 with good control at the base and good link play.

Ben Youngs played well but outside of that I thought our backs all had mixed games. JPP was solid but could have got involved more. Mermoz did plenty of good things but had poor moments. Jack Roberts and Veainu did well with what opportunities they had but neither were prominent. Thompstone made some uncharacteristic errors.

What are the odd's of Bristol turning over Wasps today? Form wise things are a lot closer than their respective table positions would suggest.

Wasps obviously should have too much, however unless they've learn't the lessons of their recent performances and with Bristol absolutely desperate, an upset is a distinctly real possibility.

Should be a great game with the Wasps back line looking set well with players playing their preferred positions, leaving a frustrated Cipriani on the bench, which will do him good.

Wasps failure against Leinster will rightly weigh heavy for a long time, however the failure was first and foremost in the forwards and was compounded by poor preparation(selection) and performance against Leinsters comprehensive display. The point is though Cipriani lost his composure, we know that that was predictable and as much as that is who he is (you take the good with the bad), he was not to blame for the loss though his disappointment is understandable. Time on the bench will do him good to reconsider. I suspect a couple of very large Kiwi props will be top of Dai's shopping list over the summer.

Cipriani was not helped by his pack failing to show any fight, and then his scrum half falling apart. We should not be too critical of any 10 who receives the cack that he did that day - but yes he did lose all composure and tried to produce a series of hail mary plays, when instead playing the percentages and trying to get his team onto the front foot would have been better.

I think for Cipriani that game was too hyped. It was billed as his chance to face down Sexton (the favourite for the Lions 10 shirt) and stake a claim for the England squad. Cipriani bought into that and went way over the top I'm his attacking play early in the game, instead of just easing himself and his team into the game and looking for territory and possession. Which is what Sexton did. The fact the Wasps pack then went through the ringer really helped no one in black.

Can't see Bristol beating them though, Wasps gave too much firepower and Bristol have a crap defence. I'm not sure Bristol have enough forward power to control the set pieces or take on Wasps in the loose.

Agree about Cipriani and Wasps/bristol in general. There is a reason Bristol are last and why Wasps are top of the table. To be fair to Bristol, they have played much better since they replaced Andy Robinson, and - perhaps - they wouldn't be on the edge of the precipice today if Robinson wasn't there from the start of the season. Relegation is always tough. But my main concern today is in Milton Keynes......

doctor_grey wrote:But my main concern today is in Milton Keynes......  

Where Northampton seem t be facing Sarries LV team.

Despite the second choice feel of the majority of that Sarries team it still looks a good set of options. The Spencer/Lozowski combo has plenty of skill and attacking threat, the centres are physical. Up front Kruis is back to lead the lineout and Koch, George and Burger are all internationals. Saints won't be able to take it easy.

After a bright start and scoring first Bristol are now 7 - 21 down just before half time.

As expected when Worcs won yesterday that relegation battle will be sealed today.

Oh dear Northampton!

What a garbage team we are. Pathetic.

Excellent at snatching defeat from the jaws of victory though

At least Beshocked will have to admit that Hartley was better than George in this head to head.

Very vocal today too. Leaders performance.

Arguably Saints fell apart once Hartley left, looking shorn of all leadership.

Meanwhile Sarries improved when George, whose petulance was annoying the ref, left the field and Wray took over the captaincy (well once Billy calmed down - having come so close to being sent off)

Hartley did well to score his try but was pretty poor aside from that - perhaps might be cited for potentially gouging Wray.

Bear in mind this was a weakened Sarries. Saints should have won.

beshocked wrote:Saints should have won.

No sh.. Sherlock.

London tiger or you could argue Saints ran out of steam. I know Hartley is seen as a deity to many fans. I don't think even he would have turned the tide.

Saints have finished poorly vs Wasps, Leicester and now Sarries.

Should get rid of j mallinder.

Though I detest Hartley I feel for Saints. Stuck with a coach no longer delivering.

Hi Beshocked

I accept this is a can of worms but if you despise Hartley so much due to his disciplinary record then how did you feel when Schalk Burger signed for Sarries?

I'm not trying to cause an argument of any kind, I'm just genuinely curious whether there's a distinction that you draw between their similarly patchy records. It usually feels that how people react to players indiscretions is driven largely by how they are portrayed in the media rather than the act they've actually committed.

Umaga and Mealamu rarely getting any mud slung their way over the BOD incident in '05 is always an example that springs to mind here.

Can't afford to sack Mallinder. Still 2 years on his contract. Unless there's a top 6 performance clause. But by then it's too late.

King carlos Hartley is almost in a league of his own when it comes to bans. 60 weeks is shocking yet his recorded is defended repeatedly.

Burger is a player with a patchy record but when was his last ban?

Hartley is praised despite his thuggery. He is given the highest honours and treated like a deity.

Burger is not treated as such.

Mealamu and Umaga - still have notoriety for their actions on BOD. They are not lauded for their thuggery.

You'd have to say Hartley bullied george off the park today nonetheless.

No 7&1/2 wrote:You'd have to say Hartley bullied george off the park today nonetheless.

Did seem that way.

No 7&1/2 wrote:You'd have to say Hartley bullied george off the park today nonetheless.

It'll be interesting to see BS's thoughts, as he puts so much on head to heads and George was completely outplayed.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:You'd have to say Hartley bullied george off the park today nonetheless.

It'll be interesting to see BS's thoughts, as he puts so much on head to heads and George was completely outplayed.

You could say he was schooled or manshamed even

Not my words but I suppose you could. Puts a lot of traction behind the theory that George is better sub than starter, doesn't have the same impact when he plays from the beginning imo.

Ha. Just scroll up sarge. He detests Hartley which makes me think he may be slightly biased ignoring the saracens player thing. Pretty poor bar his try. Should be cited. And now apparently you have to bear in mind the strength of the teams involved.

That's a serious case of sour grapes, I imagine we'd have never heard the end of it if George had outplayed Hartley.

let's look at the whole picture - this was basically a full strength Saints side bar North with a full strength pack.

George was in the front five with our 3rd choice LH and TH and a 18 year old on his debut in the 2nd row and still Saints did not dominate at scrum time. It was evens.

Saints should have dominated.

At lineout both George and Hartley lost one. George of course playing with a 18 year old and a rusty team mate in the 2nd row.

George made more tackles.

Hartley only making 4 in 60 minutes is pretty low.
Hartley did score a try though to be fair and it was good but one good piece of play is not enough in a season of mediocrity.

The Hartley fan club are crowing over one moment which in the end didn't matter because Saints lost to a weakened Sarries who obviously were gearing up for Munster. Hartley did not inspire his team to victory.

That one moment doesn't make Hartley the better hooker. George had the better stats going into the game and will probably have better stats afterwards.

1 try isn't the same as 6. George still makes on average more metres per carry, more tackles and is just as good in the set piece.

Just be gratious and accept Hartley outplayed him BS, as he did.

I checked the stats and they're very similar, not that it matters. George made 2 more tackles and 1 more meter, Hartley had 4 more successful lineouts.

You don't need the stats to see who played better though, it was pretty clear.

No one's really crowing but I bet a few people were interested to see how you'd argue that george was better. I thought george was below the level most have come to expect but I do accept those mitigating factors of who he was playing with. I hope we can all bear in mind that rugby is very much a team game and the group as a whole has a big impact on some people's perceptions on the performance as an individual.

I didn't see the game but it doesn't surprise me that George wasn't really firing, there's a big game coming up and I can imagine in the back of his mind he was thinking "don't get injured". Hartley on the other hand must have been desperate to get one over on George knowing that Jones will be watching and he had a sub par 6N.

why should I ever accept anything you or a fool like no 7 & 1/2 say when you never acknowledge when George has been superior?

Look I just think Hartley was pretty ordinary bar his try. Hartley's performance has been elevated to godlike status because of it. Probably his best performance of the season though.

I am giving credit - it was a good carry and try but that one moment didn't matter and it shouldn't matter when it comes to Lions selection.
As I said you have to factor in the respective strengths of the teams.

Sarries were generally likely to finish strong and so it proved.

To be fair I don't care whether Hartley won his H2H battle, he lost in the end.

Hope he gets cited anyway. Wray clearly clutched his face after Hartley did something.

For me, George has been consistently the better hooker this season.  That though is a debate for another forum though. In this one George was, for people who like to concentrate on head to head confrontations, outplayed on the field quite clearly to anyone who actually watches a game rather than relying on stats. If we then look at leadership, George who was his side's captain seriously let the club down. His constant whining annoyed the ref and was counterproductive. Saracens were a betterteam when he left the field and were much better led by Wray. Hartley was teh heartbeat of his team and they looked spineless when he left the field.

It is not an anachronism to state that George is the better hooker (usually) yet also be able to see the logic behind Hartley's so far continued selection for England.

Nice to see you can admit when you were wrong BS

At last we can stop this rubbish about George must start ahead of Hartley.......phew.

You really don't have to throw insults into this beshocked just again pointing out inconsistencies in your arguments.

Londontiger you can't ignore stats though. As I say Hartley only made 4 tackles.

I am trying to be fair - what Hartley gave to Saints was leadership when he was on the field but bar the try I genuinely didn't think he was that good ( when you factor in taking on a much weakened opposition).

You also must factor in the Saracens game plan - anyone who watches rugby knows that Saracens were likely to be superior in the last 10.

Look at previous games, look at the bench, the impact was not surprising.

As long as Sarries weren't too far behind I always thought they could fight back.

Plus Saints have let too many games get away from them in the last 10.

SGT Pooly well you certainly won't admit you are wrong!

No 7&1/2 wrote:You really don't have to throw insults into this beshocked just again pointing out inconsistencies in your arguments.

Did you expect anything different? He normally reverts to personal insults when he loses a debate, nothing new here.