Swing Low, Sweet Chariot

12 days since England played Italy and with just 10 hours to go until the first Six Nations match of Week 4, I think we have pretty conclusively discussed the major issues:

• Italy and their fox tactic and why it is the best/worst thing to ever happen to rugby and means they definitely shouldn't/should be relegated immediately
  
• How quickly and in what direction Howley should **** off
  
• Whether Wayne Barnes is secretly a terminator sent back in time to wreck Ireland's chances in various rugby games
  
• Who should start hooker for England
  
• How many tournaments between 2005 and 2010 would it have taken Scotland to match the 7 tries they scored in 3 games so far
  
• Something about France

One thing that's come to my attention this morning that I thinks merit discussion is England's use of "Swing Low, Sweet Chariot" as their official song. Started off by the fans, it has been officially adopted by England Rugby and even their corporate partners. More information can be found here in this NYT article.

The argument goes that the song is about the release of death for a mistreated slave, and to sing it in a sporting context trivialises the suffering of the African-American slaves.

No doubt it has established itself as a big part of watching and supporting England, but that doesn't change the song's actual meaning and its links with the slave trade.

You can argue, as some have, that at £100 a ticket fans are free to sing what they want in the crowd. But whether they should is another issue and whether England Rugby should be encouraging it and profiting from it is another issue again.

So a Friday question: Is "Swing Low, Sweet Chariot" at the rugby a harmless bit of fun, or is it a horrible cultural appropriation that trivialise the suffering of the millions of black American slaves?

Obviously this is a serious debate that will require everyone to be mature and respectful of others. If you don't think you can manage it, please log on to Twitter and engage Matt Dawson with your opinion on Italy's approach to rucking.

The US academic who brought this up has a main issue that people don't know why the song came about or the origins of it. I think it's actually down to the song being sung at rugby that quite a few of us do know where it came from. Points about the rfu profiting indirectly from slavery are stretching it to say the least.

robbo277 wrote: Is "Swing Low, Sweet Chariot" at the rugby a harmless bit of fun, or is it a horrible cultural appropriation that trivialise the suffering of the millions of black American slaves?

As a white, middle class male I am deemed far too privileged to have a worthwhile opinion on any subject around cultural appropriation (or so I have been told). Even being the parent of mixed race daughters means nothing (again so I am told). Perhaps the fact I am 1/8th Irish allows me to complain about The Donald misappropriating St Patricks Day (or St Pattys Day as the GOP called it)?


I do wonder why the RFU felt the need to make it the official song. I am sure that (even though we knew all the words unlike the Twickenham crowd) our renditions on buses back from away matches in the late 70s and early 80s, complete with a plethora of obscene gestures was extremely offensive.

No 7&1/2 wrote:The US academic who brought this up has a main issue that people don't know why the song came about or the origins of it. I think it's actually down to the song being sung at rugby that quite a few of us do know where it came from. Points about the rfu profiting indirectly from slavery are stretching it to say the least.

I think the point he rose about people not knowing where it came from was slightly off, but I guess it's harder to know the extent of it and what it means to some people.

I also don't think it's about profiting indirectly from slavery, as they aren't selling it on the back of it's links with the slavery. It's more that they are selling it with no acknowledgement of it's cultural beginnings.

FFS. It's a song that is sung by English fans as a motivator to their team. They do not support slavery.

I hate the song because it's sh!t.....not because it had a different meaning years and years ago.

Religion is the first thing that should be banned.

Tattie Scones RRN wrote:FFS. It's a song that is sung by English fans as a motivator to their team. They do not support slavery.

I hate the song because it's sh!t.....not because it had a different meaning years and years ago.

Religion is the first thing that should be banned.

I think you've misunderstood my point. I'm not saying that England Rugby, their fans or anyone who has sung the song supports slavery.

I guess the question is if you were descended from slaves, would you be a bit irked that your ancestor's struggle is being compared to England being 4 points down against France and needing Ben Te'o to come off the bench and score?

LondonTiger wrote:

robbo277 wrote: Is "Swing Low, Sweet Chariot" at the rugby a harmless bit of fun, or is it a horrible cultural appropriation that trivialise the suffering of the millions of black American slaves?

As a white, middle class male I am deemed far too privileged to have a worthwhile opinion on any subject around cultural appropriation (or so I have been told). Even being the parent of mixed race daughters means nothing (again so I am told). Perhaps the fact I am 1/8th Irish allows me to complain about The Donald misappropriating St Patricks Day (or St Pattys Day as the GOP called it)?


I do wonder why the RFU felt the need to make it the official song. I am sure that (even though we knew all the words unlike the Twickenham crowd) our renditions on buses back from away matches in the late 70s and early 80s, complete with a plethora of obscene gestures was extremely offensive.

I agree, I'm not sure why the RFU made it their official song, and if there is pressure to remove it they will feel it more strongly than the fans do. I can easily imagine a situation where the RFU change the official song and people carry on with SLSC regardless.

This is the kicker......

"The song was first adopted by rugby crowds in 1988, after England completed an impressive comeback victory over Ireland.

On that day, Chris Oti - the first black player to represent England for 80 years - scored three tries."

Ummmmmm, mmmmmm

I try not be a pearl-clutcher about this sort of thing, but I think we should try to be as culturally sensitive as possible.

I don't think paying £100 for a ticket gives people the right to sing what they want - there are many reasons why Old Firm fans shouldn't sing sectarian songs (the Famine Song makes me absolutely cringe, though I wouldn't use state power to actually ban it). If we follow that line of argument, we can start to tolerate all kinds of offensive behaviour simply because a punter has paid for the privilege.

For me, it's not just that the song is about slavery and the mis-treatment of slaves, it's that Britain played a key role in the slave trade - one of the key terms of the Treaty of Utrecht in 1713 (along with giving Gibraltar to Britain) was to grant us a monopoly on the slave trade to the Spanish colonies in the Americas, which then included large chunks of what is now the USA. Although we banned slavery earlier than the US (although it was a state-by-state issue before 1865) we can't escape the fact that a large number of slaves were in the Americas because of us.

For that reason alone, I just think it's a bit crass for England supporters to appropriate an African-American spiritual. For the same reason, the Exeter Chiefs' mock-Native American 'war cry' is bloody awful.

All that being said, I'll admit my opposition to the song is primarily because it gives me the dry-boak...

Is it worse than any of the anthems?

May I propose an alternative song for the English rugby supporters - having thought about how Fields of Athenry is used by the Irish and Flower of Scotland by the Scots - Would it not be appropriate for the English to have an English folk song to sing, rather than an American negro spiritual. And having searched the web for inspiration I have come up with the perfect song. It celebrates a famous English victory - against the French no less. And it contains these stirring words which seem apt for a rugby match confirming the English triumph in the field of play
"In Agincourt feld he faught manly;
Throw grace of God most marvelsuly,
He had both feld and victory."
(apologies for the Old English - they couldn't spell as well in those days)
And for those of you who would like to learn the lyrics and harmony I include a link to Youtube.
Link to song on Youtube

However on reflection - not sure if the prawn sandwich brigade could cope with belting it out at Twickers.
Also I would recommend reading the comments below the Youtube song - especially the one by HeavensGremlin - which describes the Agincourt victory as
A vast bunch of well-fed poofs cornered a bunch of cold starving men with dysentery. Always beware pissing-off grumpy Brits.
Scots beware!!!

Nice stirring ebop but the complaint is that the history of the song isn't known.

BAN IT and ban that god awful anthem with its racist undertones as well...

... just saying like

I like Swing Low. It's something a bit different.

Obviously we need to be sensitive in certain areas but, as usual, it's academics getting offended on somebody else's behalf.

If you read the words of most anthems they probably wouldn't pass the PC test these days.

Ah of course

An English sports crowd didn't see an opportunity to have a bit of a laugh and pull out some tongue in cheek stuff

My bad 7.5, all innocent stuff I'm sure

Cyril, your coach and half your team is culturally appropriated so appropriating a slave song as an anthem kinda works.

ebop wrote:Cyril, your coach and half your team is culturally appropriated so appropriating a slave song as an anthem kinda works.

Any of your players not from another Pacific Island?

ebop wrote:Cyril, your coach and half your team is culturally appropriated so appropriating a slave song as an anthem kinda works.

If you want to beat the best, follow their lead

When do you play you next? You can't keep running forever.

The hard core offended will always find a way to be offended. And cultural appropriation is the latest buzz phrase. Bit like institutional this or institutional that was 'til people got bored.
It's just a song, something you can sing between bites on your prawn sarnies.

So a Friday question: Is "Swing Low, Sweet Chariot" at the rugby a harmless bit of fun, or is it a horrible cultural appropriation that trivialise the suffering of the millions of black American slaves?

Don't forget that we will also have to ask the opinions of the descendants of the Africans who sold the descendants of other Africans to the slavers what they think about this.

Let's be inclusive, all sides must be represented.

Some of you guys lack awareness. Bit like your rugby team (who remembers the Italy game?)

Haka. And drop kicks. Poor wumming ebop must do better.

ebop wrote:Some of you guys lack awareness. Bit like your rugby team (who remembers the Italy game?)

It's the drink and drugs culture in NZ that worries me if we're trying to grow the game.

Sigh. I wonder what will be next for the well-educated middle class whites to feel outraged on behalf of other minorities.

It's virtue signalling at its finest, nothing more. "Swing low" doesn't trivialise anything. Most people haven't any idea about the song's origins. Many old fashioned songs originated from times of great suffering which is often the very thing that makes them iconic.

Simple - Flanders and Swan patriotic prejudice song..

'The English, the English, the English are best
I wouldn't give tuppence for all of the rest.

The rottenest bits of these islands of ours
We've left in the hands of three unfriendly powers
Examine the Irishman, Welshman or Scot
You'll find he's a stinker, as likely as not.

Och aye, awa' wi' yon Edinburgh Festival

The Scotsman is mean, as we're all well aware
And bony and blotchy and covered with hair
He eats salty porridge, he works all the day
And he hasn't got bishops to show him the way!

The English, the English, the English are best
I wouldn't give tuppence for all of the rest.

Ah hit me old mother over the head with a shillelagh

The Irishman now out contempt is beneath
He sleeps in his boots and he lies through his teeth
He blows up policemen, or so I have heard
And blames it on Cromwell and William the Third!

The English are noble, the English are nice,
And worth any other at double the price

Ah, iechyd da

The Welshman's dishonest and cheats when he can
And little and dark, more like monkey than man
He works underground with a lamp in his hat
And he sings far too loud, far too often, and flat!

And crossing the Channel, one cannot say much
Of French and the Spanish, the Danish or Dutch
The Germans are German, the Russians are red,
And the Greeks and Italians eat garlic in bed!

The English are moral, the English are good
And clever and modest and misunderstood.

And all the world over, each nation's the same
They've simply no notion of playing the game
They argue with umpires, they cheer when they've won
And they practice beforehand which ruins the fun!

The English, the English, the English are best
So up with the English and down with the rest.

It's not that they're wicked or natuarally bad
It's knowing they're foreign that makes them so mad!

For the English are all that a nation should be,
And the flower of the English are Donald (Michael)
Donald (Michael) and Me!

Serious question. When swing low is belted out, do you guys think of the black slave?

Nope.

Ok

What about if people around the world know it's a slave song and you whitey guys dressed in white are singing it and pointing fingers at you guys for cultural appropriation after it originated after a black guy scored 3 tries, do you care?

Erm. Not all English people are white. Up your game ebop.

ebop wrote:Serious question. When swing low is belted out, do you guys think of the black slave?

Yes, and I pinch myself so hard even my great, great, great, great grandfather can feel it.

For a while at least the guilt is assuaged.

TrailApe wrote:

So a Friday question: Is "Swing Low, Sweet Chariot" at the rugby a harmless bit of fun, or is it a horrible cultural appropriation that trivialise the suffering of the millions of black American slaves?

Don't forget that we will also have to ask the opinions of the descendants of the Africans who sold the descendants of other Africans to the slavers what they think about this.

Let's be inclusive, all sides must be represented.

Well yes.  Slavery was, slaver is, slavery will be.  And every colour engaged in it through history.  We're close to the black American experience and it still resonates today, so it's understandable that it's a sensitive issue worldwide - but is it a sensitive issue in some of the areas of Africa where indigenous tribes walked their own slaves to the coast to furnish the white man's ships with workers for the plantations? - AND, slavery still exists; and slaves are still being boated around the world, and it's again not only white people doing the trading.

So my solution would be to let the rugby song be a rugby song, as it is for the vast majority who sing it - and then let the people that know the true meaning of the song seriously address the present day serious slavery trade and talk more about it than the historic version.

Most people at twickers are 7.5

Don't be a mug

ebop wrote:Serious question. When swing low is belted out, do you guys think of the black slave?

No but I do think about when we beat the All Blacks though. Brings a tear to my eye.

No need to be offensive ebop just because your wums are in need of improvement.

Serious question. When swing low is belted out, do you guys think of the black slave?

Serious question. When swing low is belted out, do you guys think of Angels coming after people in bands?

Do you guys REALLY believe in God?

Figures concerning attendance at Churches and Chapels (yes you Bread Of Heaven singers - I'm looking at you!) would indicate the British are a bunch of Heathens so it's rank hypocrisy to sing spirituals.

I'm serious though, you guys know the connotations and you know England has a rich history of exploiting new frontiers, do you guys seriously not think about slavery when you belt it out? Maybe there could even be a sense of historical pride in the song as in we dominated once upon a time. But alas, no more. But let's not give up hope, right?

Barney McGrew did it wrote:

ebop wrote:Serious question. When swing low is belted out, do you guys think of the black slave?

No but I do think about when we beat the All Blacks though. Brings a tear to my eye.

Yeah I bet, it's such a long time between drinks it must be a great relief

It backfired on the BBC this morning as they interviewed two American cultural professor types and neither had a problem with England rugby fans using it, sort of mucked up the beebs left wing agenda somewhat.

I don't have a problem with it and as an England fan I don't care if people do get upset by it.

Cyril wrote:

ebop wrote:Serious question. When swing low is belted out, do you guys think of the black slave?

Yes, and I pinch myself so hard even my great, great, great, great grandfather can feel it.

For a while at least the guilt is assuaged.

Cyril, that is amazing and you are a fine example

Cyril wrote:

ebop wrote:Cyril, your coach and half your team is culturally appropriated so appropriating a slave song as an anthem kinda works.

If you want to beat the best, follow their lead

When do you play you next? You can't keep running forever.

England dont play NZ till next November. Win streak will be long gone by then.

ebop wrote:I'm serious though, you guys know the connotations and you know England has a rich history of exploiting new frontiers, do you guys seriously not think about slavery when you belt it out?

Come on now, ebop. They don't have a whole lot of alternatives. If they drop the Swing Low, they're back to the open warfare song:

"Lord grant that Marshal Wade
May be thy mighty aid
Victory bring
May he sedition hush
And like a torrent rush
Rebellious Scots to crush
God save the Queen"

That can't be good for crowd control at an England v Scotland game. But I'm glad to see Wade is playing - lovely little tricksty player.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Sigh. I wonder what will be next for the well-educated middle class whites to feel outraged on behalf of other minorities.

It's virtue signalling at its finest, nothing more. "Swing low" doesn't trivialise anything. Most people haven't any idea about the song's origins. Many old fashioned songs originated from times of great suffering which is often the very thing that makes them iconic.

I agree with the last sentence, and that's definitely a good point to note.

I'm trying to not offer too much of an opinion here, because I only read about it this morning and I guess I still don't know what side of the fence I fall on. However I don't think the objection has been raised by well-educated, middle class whites and I don't think it's inappropriate now the issue has been raised for well-educated, middle class whites to join the debate on it.

Maybe the haka should be reconsidered for its historical use on the battlefield which trivialises victims of Maori warfare as a form of entertainment.

Do you think about the villagers who were slaughtered in these tribal battles?

robbo277 wrote: However I don't think the objection has been raised by well-educated, middle class whites and I don't think it's inappropriate now the issue has been raised for well-educated, middle class whites to join the debate on it.

You'd have to run that past me again robbo.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Maybe the haka should be reconsidered for its historical use on the battlefield which trivialises victims of Maori warfare as a form of entertainment.

Do you think about the villagers who were slaughtered in these tribal battles?

I got to admit I don't. But I'd slaughter anyone who tried to ban the Haka ...

robbo277 wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Sigh. I wonder what will be next for the well-educated middle class whites to feel outraged on behalf of other minorities.

It's virtue signalling at its finest, nothing more. "Swing low" doesn't trivialise anything. Most people haven't any idea about the song's origins. Many old fashioned songs originated from times of great suffering which is often the very thing that makes them iconic.

I agree with the last sentence, and that's definitely a good point to note.

I'm trying to not offer too much of an opinion here, because I only read about it this morning and I guess I still don't know what side of the fence I fall on. However I don't think the objection has been raised by well-educated, middle class whites and I don't think it's inappropriate now the issue has been raised for well-educated, middle class whites to join the debate on it.

That isn't my point, of course, as I also loathe the idea that white people can't have opinions on, well, anything, due to their "privilege". However, that line of thought comes from the same people who complain about this sort of thing.

Often, these sorts of objections come from people who are actively looking for something that may be deemed "offensive". Organisations make money from this sort of thing and some people live for it. If there isn't a bad guy to fight, you have to make one up.

I believe the appropriate response is:

"You can swing that fecking chariot up your arse,
you can swing that fecking chariot up your arse.
You can swing that fecking chariot,
swing that fecking chariot,
swing that fecking chariot up your arse"

To the tune of "She'll be coming round the mountain"

ebop wrote:I'm serious though, you guys know the connotations and you know England has a rich history of exploiting new frontiers, do you guys seriously not think about slavery when you belt it out? Maybe there could even be a sense of historical pride in the song as in we dominated once upon a time. But alas, no more. But let's not give up hope, right?

By the way its not 'you guys' its 'us guys'. The original British colonists of NZ and Australia were a) part of Britain when we were making money through slavery and b) their own actions and interactions with the native populations were nothing to write home about long after we gave up on the slavery thing

SecretFly wrote:

ebop wrote:I'm serious though, you guys know the connotations and you know England has a rich history of exploiting new frontiers, do you guys seriously not think about slavery when you belt it out?

Come on now, ebop.  They don't have a whole lot of alternatives.  If they drop the Swing Low, they're back to the open warfare song:

"Lord grant that Marshal Wade
May be thy mighty aid
Victory bring
May he sedition hush
And like a torrent rush
Rebellious Scots to crush
God save the Queen"

That can't be good for crowd control at an England v Scotland game.  But I'm glad to see Wade is playing - lovely little tricksty player.

Mm ok, relevant but a bit provocative

What's the tune, is it catchy?

Can they do the thing where one part of the crowd starts and the other starts later and it overlaps and sounds pleasant but not quite Welsh-level pleasant, or is it a bit messy?