How will England evolve before they next play New Zealand?

First topic message reminder :

England next play NZ in the autumn of 2018. We can be confident that they will be ranked 2 and 1 in the world, but England will have home advantage. I expect this will be one of the most hyped games in the history of rugby. But how will England change between now and then? Obviously there will be injuries, loss of form, players coming from nowhere, etc, but here are some things I expect:

- England will get a lot better. We are still a young and inexperienced side, and I would have thought we would naturally get about 20% better over this timescale.
- Elliot Daly will be fullback. Mike Brown has been a great servant but is in decline, and Daly is a wonderful footballer. I think this might be Daly's long-term position for England.
- Jamie George will be hooker, Luke Cowan-Dickie will be the 'finisher' on the bench, and Itoje will be Captain. Hartley has been lucky in terms of not missing internationals, when he eventually does I think the case for change will be clear.
- Underhill will be in the matchday squad, and will quite possibly be the starting 7. England have some fantastic backrows at age-group level, but Underhill will come into contention before them and he may be able to push past Haskell. I think Robshaw will still be the starting 6 at this point.

What does everyone else think?

But NZR never said they would drop the baa bass game

That's the point

They told RFU that

They didn't like it

RFU threatened to pull twickers

I'm agreeing with you ebop I'm pleased that at least england were thinking of the baa baas while nz were thinking about the cash. Really desperate for money down there. They're even trying to get the northern hemisphere t pay them money to visit! Awful people in charge down there.

And back to the thread.......so how will we develop before November 2018? (ab's have approx 20 games and we about a dozen)

New captain (new hooker), improved back row with a fetcher, Tuilagi back in the mix, Wade in the squad and a new strike running full back. I'd also like to see Slade and Malinder both challenging the Ford/Farrell axis

But most of all we should strive to improve our mental fortitude. This is both the most important and hardest to achieve. We have to grow beyond the anglo saxon parent/child coach/player relationship.

England dont want to play NZ until they have to, they're enjoying being 2nd in the World and won't risk it. Fact is they would like to avoid it until RWC and then sneak under the radar.

Ranking is more at risk playing teams ranked lower than England. Losing to the ABs wouldn't dent our ranking too much, losing to teams ranked lower would really hurt and also give teams below a big boost and a chance to catch up.

Unless you're suggesting England are less likely to lose to teams below them, in which case I'd say the ranking is probably a fair reflection.

Not sure what benefit a falsely-inflated ranking would be going into the world cup either.

And yet again this thread descends into anti England tripe!!!

Plenty of other threads to slate England please leave this one...

Back to thread...

Okay, if Hartley, Brown, Haskell, Robshaw and Kruis (both following injury) don't tour...do they go to Argentina?

See there you have it…how is that 'anti England'…its not at all, its just not what you want to hear. By that standard the amount of 'anti Welsh' sentiment would drown this forum.

England are enjoying their revival post apocalyptic RWC, they're threatening to be the best in the world but just had a slip up. If they can avoid NZ then IMO they will until - as Eddie has stated - they are in another RWC when any team (except Wales obviously) could beat any other team on the day.

'anti England' don't be such a baby

We can still be friends Gwlad. Even when you insult me, my nationality and my mum. Be the bigger man x

Okay, if Hartley, Brown, Haskell, Robshaw and Kruis (both following injury) don't tour...do they go to Argentina?

Hartley - does George go with the Lions? If so, Harley has more chance of going to Argentina. Option 2 and 3 need a bit more exposure, so if George is with the Lions you could go with Hartley and Taylor. If not, go with George and Taylor.

Brown - no thanks. We need to trial other options in my opinion.

Haskell and Robshaw - both have spent time out so might be fresher than they otherwise would be. But again we need to look at more options at flanker. I don't think we should take both, if either.

Kruis - if we're missing other second rows, sure. He's younger than the other guys and will be a big part of this team over the next 6 years. We have four good options at lock so dont need to develop as many options. If 2 or 3 go on the Lions, we will still get one or two fresh faces in the matchday squad. If we only get one or none in the Lions, I'd sit someone out of this tour, although it wouldn't automatically be Kruis.

England are enjoying their revival post apocalyptic RWC, they're threatening to be the best in the world but just had a slip up. If they can avoid NZ then IMO they will until - as Eddie has stated - they are in another RWC when any team (except Wales obviously) could beat any other team on the day.

If England win their next 13 games (Arg tour, AIs, 6 Nations and SA tour) they still wouldn't be number one unless NZ lost 2 or 3 themselves in that time. Neither is particularly likely.

England won't get to number one in the world without beating the All Blacks at least once, unless the ABs suffer a couple of shock losses.

robbo277 wrote:

England are enjoying their revival post apocalyptic RWC, they're threatening to be the best in the world but just had a slip up. If they can avoid NZ then IMO they will until - as Eddie has stated - they are in another RWC when any team (except Wales obviously) could beat any other team on the day.

If England win their next 13 games (Arg tour, AIs, 6 Nations and SA tour) they still wouldn't be number one unless NZ lost 2 or 3 themselves in that time. Neither is particularly likely.

England won't get to number one in the world without beating the All Blacks at least once, unless the ABs suffer a couple of shock losses.

I think Eddie has one thing on his mind, and has down since 2003, RWC 2019. Thats the number 1 he is interested in.

robbo277 wrote:

England are enjoying their revival post apocalyptic RWC, they're threatening to be the best in the world but just had a slip up. If they can avoid NZ then IMO they will until - as Eddie has stated - they are in another RWC when any team (except Wales obviously) could beat any other team on the day.

If England win their next 13 games (Arg tour, AIs, 6 Nations and SA tour) they still wouldn't be number one unless NZ lost 2 or 3 themselves in that time. Neither is particularly likely.

England won't get to number one in the world without beating the All Blacks at least once, unless the ABs suffer a couple of shock losses.

Shame the Lions aren't in the World Rankings - could do us a favour

As any new Zealanders will tell you you don't have to be number one in the rankings or win the world cup to be the best team in the world. You can just blame it on Wayne Barnes.

robbo277 wrote:I'd raise an eyebrow if either of them went, but for different reasons.

I'm not sure how much Jones would have watched Fearns. Maybe he'll have a quick look until the end of the season, but I wouldn't be surprised if Jones waited until he was playing regularly (and well) in the Premiership.

With Kvesic, I'd say Jones wouldn't be doing his job if he hadn't had a look at him. He was called up to the Saxons last summer, but beyond that he hasn't had much of a sniff. Since then Sam Jones and Mike Williams have both had call-ups (and subsequently suffered with injuries), Wood has come back into the equation and Itoje has been reassigned to the back row. Clifford and Harrison have remained with the squad, so in terms of flankers Kvesic is below at least 8 players.

Sam Jones will be back end of next month

Gwlad wrote:See there you have it…how is that 'anti England'…its not at all, its just not what you want to hear. By that standard the amount of 'anti Welsh' sentiment would drown this forum.

England are enjoying their revival post apocalyptic RWC, they're threatening to be the best in the world but just had a slip up. If they can avoid NZ then IMO they will until - as Eddie has stated - they are in another RWC when any team (except Wales obviously) could beat any other team on the day.

'anti England' don't be such a baby

On the contrary, this thread is looking how we need to improve etc it is being critical but constructively so! ...but non England fans have just come on to spout sh1te!!

We know there needs to be big improvements and we're discussing it on here.

And as for being a baby?? No , you just get sick of the sh1te banter sometimes....its nice to actually have a constructive thread once in a while!

However you want to draw the curve it is obvious that the upward trajectory has plateaued and its fair to say that last saturday's performance probably represents a dip. All of that was obvious and predicable following the initial blooming of the Sarries squad additions and then followed by the inevitable fatigue and injuries they and the larger squad incurred.

So as I say predictable, but lets not forget what achievements and fun there has been along the way.

The blindingly obvious question now is where do we go from here? Do we stagnate during the Lions hiatus and possible/probable unnecessary battle wounds that the tour will inflict or do we positively progress by way of european club success, Lions experience and respect earnt, plus Argentinian revelation?

Realistically (and I do own that I am not a fan of the Lions in the professional era) this summers tour to NZ does make things a lot harder to predict and more importantly to control. Player welfare goes out the window with the Lions and so all involved will be casualties by either injury or fatigue. And obviously that will effect England's development opportunities, plus there will be the disruption of reintegrating the divergent tour squads next autumn.

So all in all, EJ has one arm tied behind his back and there is every likelihood that when he does again have the use of both, that one of the hands will be missing some of its fingers!

Therefore I think you will have to agree that its not a great opportunity for our evolution and perhaps all involved might better be served by extended beach duty?

Come on Eeyore let's try and remain positive......Wasps to win the double and Wade is selected for the Lions

Some valid points there KingE

However,

On the other hand....has the style currently being played taken us as far as we can..and with that I mean just smashing the breakdown with little technical guys in there (with the exception of Itoje).

With that in mind...we need to look to continuing the physical aspects that helped us smash Australia etc...but use this Argentina tour, AI's etc to now introduce a bit more technical savy aswell...that Underhill, Curry x 2, etc etc can possibly offer.

This is what I meant previously when I said the biggest thing for Jones will be identifying from the huge numbers coming through...which ones can progress us towards the desired WC goal...and play the required mix of physicality and technical ability.

To be fair as well a plateau of a joint world record for tier 1 wins ain't bad! Further tinkering but no need for the baby to ge thrown out with the bath water. We're in a pretty good place.

GeordieFalcon wrote:Some valid points there KingE

However,

On the other hand....has the style currently being played taken us as far as we can..and with that I mean just smashing the breakdown with little technical guys in there (with the exception of Itoje).

With that in mind...we need to look to continuing the physical aspects that helped us smash Australia etc...but use this Argentina tour, AI's etc to now introduce a bit more technical savy aswell...that Underhill, Curry x 2, etc etc can possibly offer.

This is what I meant previously when I said the biggest thing for Jones will be identifying from the huge numbers coming through...which ones can progress us towards the desired WC goal...and play the required mix of physicality and technical ability.  

You're right in that to successfully progress we will require a functioning pack and specifically a back row that is able to compete. There were various things that did for us on saturday, one of those was that our back row was second best.
Haskell and especially BV were undercooked, plus his selection was disruptive in terms of familiarity and psychologically, it sent out the wrong message(it suggested arrogance by saying we can win even when BV is not at his best. That message would have wound up the opposition and told his team mates that they did not need to try so hard) BV should have been on the bench with Hughes starting. I'm just hoping it wound up Hughes so that he really makes a statement on his return on the qtr final.
Furthermore while Haskell and Robshaw, in tandem with BV, were previously able to negate the lack of a good fetcher, on saturday regardless of BV's shortfalls, Haskell and Itoje/Lawes were definitely not and so we were continually beaten to the breakdown and slowed down. Therefore going forward I believe we will need to either replace Haskell with another 6 (Haskell is 32 and won't make Japan) or move Robshaw to 6 with a fetching 7 (underhill or similar)?
Eitherway I believe it is the end of the 4/6 Itoje/Lawes experiment as even with form and fitness I cannot see a backrow of Robshaw Vunipola Itoje/Lawes being able to compete on the floor or at pace with NZ, and even though we want to play to our physical strenght's, we will need the greater forward dexterity to take  them on in a 15 man game where all forms of attack are required to compete and WIN!

No 7&1/2 wrote:To be fair as well a plateau of a joint world record for tier 1 wins ain't bad! Further tinkering but no need for the baby to ge thrown out with the bath water. We're in a pretty good place.

Ah no im not belittling what we have done. Its been such a positive run and the side has improved no end. However we haven't been scintiliating this 6n ( I appreciate we have had injuries to key players).

And that performance v Ireland was so underwhelming....

NZ don't sit on their laurels and neither should we....constant progression...

Absolutely. I still think without any change this same group will overall still get better. As the thread suggests evolution not revolution.

No 7&1/2 wrote:To be fair as well a plateau of a joint world record for tier 1 wins ain't bad! Further tinkering but no need for the baby to ge thrown out with the bath water. We're in a pretty good place.

Agreed, however for us to win in Japan we will need to learn from every opportunity and hope that we don't have to take to much medicine in the process.

I really hope that everyone understands and owns saturday's loss, becuase it is times like this that you really learn.

Was it Vunipola Jr who said the next game is important. That old bounce back ability.

kingelderfield wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:Some valid points there KingE

However,

On the other hand....has the style currently being played taken us as far as we can..and with that I mean just smashing the breakdown with little technical guys in there (with the exception of Itoje).

With that in mind...we need to look to continuing the physical aspects that helped us smash Australia etc...but use this Argentina tour, AI's etc to now introduce a bit more technical savy aswell...that Underhill, Curry x 2, etc etc can possibly offer.

This is what I meant previously when I said the biggest thing for Jones will be identifying from the huge numbers coming through...which ones can progress us towards the desired WC goal...and play the required mix of physicality and technical ability.  

You're right in that to successfully progress we will require a functioning pack and specifically a back row that is able to compete. There were various things that did for us on saturday, one of those was that our back row was second best.
Haskell and especially BV were undercooked, plus his selection was disruptive in terms of familiarity and psychologically, it sent out the wrong message(it suggested arrogance by saying we can win even when BV is not at his best. That message would have wound up the opposition and told his team mates that they did not need to try so hard) BV should have been on the bench with Hughes starting. I'm just hoping it wound up Hughes so that he really makes a statement on his return on the qtr final.
Furthermore while Haskell and Robshaw, in tandem with BV, were previously able to negate the lack of a good fetcher, on saturday regardless of BV's shortfalls, Haskell and Itoje/Lawes were definitely not and so we were continually beaten to the breakdown and slowed down. Therefore going forward I believe we will need to either replace Haskell with another 6 (Haskell is 32 and won't make Japan) or move Robshaw to 6 with a fetching 7 (underhill or similar)?
Eitherway I believe it is the end of the 4/6 Itoje/Lawes experiment as even with form and fitness I cannot see a backrow of Robshaw Vunipola Itoje/Lawes being able to compete on the floor or at pace with NZ, and even though we want to play to our physical strenght's, we will need the greater forward dexterity to take  them on in a 15 man game where all forms of attack are required to compete and WIN!

I agree with that in part aswell. But we must remember Billy was only just back from injury, Haskell hasn't been at full tilt after long term injury, Robshaw (a key player for me) was out as was another key player in Kruis (despite Lawes and Launchbury playing outstanding)

I agree the Lock at 6 doesn't work for me. it needs to be a genuine back row player...and I think Tom wood should retire from Internationals now.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Was it Vunipola Jr who said the next game is important. That old bounce back ability.

Here's hoping. As it stands the end of the club season could really inspire some special performances.

Well pre-EJ we needed to re-invigorate the set-piece, balance the BR and sort out IC. Funnily enough IMO we’ve only really sorted the 1st one, and even that only to a satisfactory level. Despite that we’ve still got back2back 6Ns, 1 GS, equal world record winning streak and #2 ranking. Work that one out.

I’d say the FH/IC combo needs a longer-term back-up, and the same for Haskell. On the front foot the Ford/Farrell is good but where is plan B for RWC19. And I wonder how much longer Haskell can throw himself at everything.

Regards Wood I think that could well be it at this level, though he could be a peculiar Lions selection as players genuinely like to go out with a bang?

Coincidentally club-wise the Saints are looking real dark horses at present with everyone fit. Saturday's game will tell us more.

kingelderfield wrote:Regards Wood I think that could well be it at this level, though he could be a peculiar Lions selection as players genuinely like to go out with a bang?

Coincidentally club-wise the Saints are looking real dark horses at present with everyone fit. Saturday's game will tell us more.

Fixture run in is too difficult for top 4.

Barney McGrew did it wrote:Well pre-EJ we needed to re-invigorate the set-piece, balance the BR and sort out IC.  Funnily enough IMO we’ve only really sorted the 1st one, and even that only to a satisfactory level. Despite that we’ve still got back2back 6Ns, 1 GS, equal world record winning streak and #2 ranking. Work that one out.

I’d say the FH/IC combo needs a longer-term back-up, and the same for Haskell. On the front foot the Ford/Farrell is good but where is plan B for RWC19. And I wonder how much longer Haskell can throw himself at everything.

I mentioned earlier that I want to see Slade and hopefully Malinder challenge the Ford/Farrell combo. You can have quite a lot of fun working out the various possibilities;

fd/f = yes
fd/s = maybe
fd/m = na

f/s = maybe
f/m = maybe
f/fd = na

s/fd = na
s/f = maybe
s/m = maybe

m/fd = na
m/f = na
m/s = na

And then ofcourse Mr Danny Cipriani has confirmed that EJ calls him every other week (and twice at weekends) and so he's still in the picture. Ridiculous on these boards maybe, but if Wasps do the double then giddy up horsey!

Lozowski presumably there as well. Tuilagi seemed the preferred option at 12. GF s favourite winger will surely play shortly....

Scottrf wrote:

kingelderfield wrote:Regards Wood I think that could well be it at this level, though he could be a peculiar Lions selection as players genuinely like to go out with a bang?

Coincidentally club-wise the Saints are looking real dark horses at present with everyone fit. Saturday's game will tell us more.

Fixture run in is too difficult for top 4.

Yer that's a tough call - though they do finish with Quins!

There is still a chase but I'd have to agree a rather small one - good odds at the bookies mind

kingelderfield wrote:However you want to draw the curve it is obvious that the upward trajectory has plateaued and its fair to say that last saturday's performance probably represents a dip

Pretty much paraphrasing what I've said for the last 12 months regarding Eddie Jones.

He's been shrewd in appointing Borthwick in particular I feel, but- much like Woodward- any future improvement and potential World Cup success relies heavily on the people around him, primarily coaches, but also (obviously) including any contemporary equivalents of Wilkinson/Johnson/Robinson etc., those World Class or vital players who made the difference when it mattered.

England don't have quite the monopoly on professionalism in the NH, or the World, as they did under Woodward, nor do I believe they are blessed with players as good as they had then. This is undoubtedly the best squad since that time, and they're fortunate in that they have a lot of Test quality players pushing for places. They've been helped by the standard of the Aviva Premiership in that regard, and the influx of real quality foreign talent seems to have helped.

But I don't know if they have those stand out players. The closest would be the Farrell: Wilkinson comparison, but as much as Sky Sports has done its level best to try and implicitly force that narrative down peoples' throats, I'm not sure he'll ever quite get there. There's just something missing. Itoje obviously looks a talent, but also very loose, and had an average Six Nations, conceding a lot of penalties, and frankly looked like he was 'playing up' quite a bit, in terms of bravado side of things. That has its place in Rugby, of course. But I don't quite see the makings of a steely eyed leader yet, someone to get behind when the going gets tough. So far, I've seen someone revel in the contest and enjoy winning positions, but not the grit. He's still very young though.

Outside of that, I'm not sure there's anyone even at a Greenwood or Dallaglio level. Vunipola is very special at what he does, and I thought Mako held up the scrum well when he played, and we know what he brings in the loose from prop. They'd be amongst that tier of players you look to build your team around. Likewise. Launchbury, Ford, and Daly all have something about them that- if they do what they do well every time they play for England- could put them amongst the bracket. But they're not there yet. And, as such, I almost think England are almost greater than the sum of its parts; or, at least, the proclamations that they're now closer to NZ than Ireland or Wales perhaps inflates what most would expect that sum to be.

The Six Nations- particularly France- are going to improve between now and 2019. I said last year, I couldn't really see where this England team goes, other than getting better and better at that bullocking, bullying forward power game they had last year. That in itself is enough to win a World Cup. If you truly believe you have the better of the opposition, and are able to consisntely go out there and beat teams through physicality and aggression, and top if up with invention, tactics, and running when needs be, all the sports psychology in the world doesn't compensate for how much better you can play with that conviction running through the team, collectively and individually.

We've also seen the desire to move it wide with that power game through the forward effort, to a mostly positive effect. But Ireland showed what happens when you stop it at source. Wales showed the limitations of England's inventiveness. France showed how tentative that self belief really is, despite the unbeaten run they went on last season.

England were always favourites to retain this 6Ns. I'm not sure they will be next year. Or, at least, there won't be a clear favourite. Even discounting the Lions, England need to adapt enough to rediscover how to squeeze over the line against Ireland whilst not playing well, as well as finding some players (at 7) who are a bit savvier at the breakdown.

England's trajectory was never in isolation, and I remember so many people saying "well, why won't it continue to rise?" The main reason is the improvement of other teams. South Africa are at their weakest point in the professional era. France have had over half a decade in the wilderness. Scotland have had nearly two decades. All of those will continue to improve between now and the World Cup. Add in that you'd also expect Ireland and Wales to continue developing more variety to their well structured gameplans- as well as blooding new players- and suddenly England are looking over their shoulders again, not just up to the All Blacks. It goes without saying, Australia will get it right at the World Cup, as they always do, even if they do nothing between now and then, and the All Blacks juggernaut shows no signs of slowing down.

The task for Eddie Jones is to stay as many steps ahead of the curve as he can. He can't do it alone, and he's done well so far. Complacency- particularly in coaching, as far as I can tell from the outside- would be the biggest thing to fear. They have the player depth. They mostly have the players. The experience and temperament isn't there yet, but the only way they'll get it is by continuing to win titles.

Three on the bounce, Grand Slam or not, would be a big statement to make next year.

Gooseberry wrote:As any new Zealanders will tell you you don't have to be number one in the rankings or win the world cup to be the best team in the world. You can just blame it on Wayne Barnes.

 Its only coincidence that New Zealand has lost only one Rugby World Cup game of Rugby since 2003, and it just happened to be refereed by a young Mr Barnes.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Lozowski presumably there as well. Tuilagi seemed the preferred option at 12. GF s favourite winger will surely play shortly....

Lozowski, yer he's had quite a season especially when you think how little game time he really go at wasps - trumpet at the ready - I did say he would go well at sarries. Argentina bound a suspect.

Winger? noman i canna b c in tha

If Tuilagi does get back i'd want to see him on the outside but we'll have to wait or that.

aucklandlaurie wrote:

Gooseberry wrote:As any new Zealanders will tell you you don't have to be number one in the rankings or win the world cup to be the best team in the world. You can just blame it on Wayne Barnes.

 Its only coincidence that New Zealand has lost only one Rugby World Cup game of Rugby since 2003, and it just happened to be refereed by a young Mr Barnes.

Because he stops you cheating?

No he felt sorry for them afterwards so taught them how to do drop goals.

Scottrf wrote:

aucklandlaurie wrote:

Gooseberry wrote:As any new Zealanders will tell you you don't have to be number one in the rankings or win the world cup to be the best team in the world. You can just blame it on Wayne Barnes.

 Its only coincidence that New Zealand has lost only one Rugby World Cup game of Rugby since 2003, and it just happened to be refereed by a young Mr Barnes.

Because he stops you cheating?

 We're not talking about cheating, We're talking about being Number 1 in the rankings and being World Champions.Cheating doesnt come into it.

Graham Henry accused Barnes of cheating that day. At the very least he was very incompetent to the extent that NZ some how managed to convince world rugby not to let Barnes ref any NZ games for a few years after.

England evolution thread.

GunsGermsV2 wrote:Graham Henry accused Barnes of cheating that day. At the very least he was very incompetent to the extent that NZ some how managed to convince world rugby not to let Barnes ref any NZ games for a few years after.

Have another go.

GunsGermsV2 wrote:Graham Henry accused Barnes of cheating that day. At the very least he was very incompetent to the extent that NZ some how managed to convince world rugby not to let Barnes ref any NZ games for a few years after.

 And thats the way it should be, you cant have some young Rooster come along and get stunned by the headlights and drag what is a good competition into a shambles. Within four years, by 2011 Barnes was a completely different referee.

No 7&1/2 wrote:England evolution thread.

 Barnes is English.

aucklandlaurie wrote:

GunsGermsV2 wrote:Graham Henry accused Barnes of cheating that day. At the very least he was very incompetent to the extent that NZ some how managed to convince world rugby not to let Barnes ref any NZ games for a few years after.

 And thats the way it should be, you cant have some young Rooster come along and get stunned by the headlights and drag what is a good competition into a shambles. Within four years, by 2011 Barnes was a completely different referee.

Dont try and have that conversation with an Ireland fan!

aucklandlaurie wrote:

GunsGermsV2 wrote:Graham Henry accused Barnes of cheating that day. At the very least he was very incompetent to the extent that NZ some how managed to convince world rugby not to let Barnes ref any NZ games for a few years after.

 And thats the way it should be, you cant have some young Rooster come along and get stunned by the headlights and drag what is a good competition into a shambles. Within four years, by 2011 Barnes was a completely different referee.

He'd taken the form of Alain Rolland?

It all makes perfect sense...

No 7&1/2 wrote:Lozowski presumably there as well. Tuilagi seemed the preferred option at 12. GF s favourite winger will surely play shortly....

Gooseberry wrote:

aucklandlaurie wrote:

GunsGermsV2 wrote:Graham Henry accused Barnes of cheating that day. At the very least he was very incompetent to the extent that NZ some how managed to convince world rugby not to let Barnes ref any NZ games for a few years after.

 And thats the way it should be, you cant have some young Rooster come along and get stunned by the headlights and drag what is a good competition into a shambles. Within four years, by 2011 Barnes was a completely different referee.

Dont try and have that conversation with an Ireland fan!

 Barnes was a project referee.

aucklandlaurie wrote:

Gooseberry wrote:As any new Zealanders will tell you you don't have to be number one in the rankings or win the world cup to be the best team in the world. You can just blame it on Wayne Barnes.

 Its only coincidence that New Zealand has lost only one Rugby World Cup game of Rugby since 2003, and it just happened to be refereed by a young Mr Barnes.

Mute point. I don't think any wc winners have lost games at wc's. We never so nearly managed it in 07 after you had gone home

aucklandlaurie wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:England evolution thread.

 Barnes is English.

Yeah but are you evolved?

kingelderfield wrote:

aucklandlaurie wrote:

Gooseberry wrote:As any new Zealanders will tell you you don't have to be number one in the rankings or win the world cup to be the best team in the world. You can just blame it on Wayne Barnes.

 Its only coincidence that New Zealand has lost only one Rugby World Cup game of Rugby since 2003, and it just happened to be refereed by a young Mr Barnes.

Mute point. I don't think any wc winners have lost games at wc's. We never so nearly managed it in 07 after you had gone home

 That would be more of a Moot Point.

Gooseberry wrote:

aucklandlaurie wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:England evolution thread.

 Barnes is English.

Yeah but are you evolved?

 we can stand up now and walk as good as anyone.

aucklandlaurie wrote:

Gooseberry wrote:

aucklandlaurie wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:England evolution thread.

 Barnes is English.

Yeah but are you evolved?

 we can stand up now and walk as good as anyone.

two legs good four legs better said the kiwi to the madam........

this is about us not you and the ab's have evolved quite enough for now thank you.