How will England evolve before they next play New Zealand?

First topic message reminder :

England next play NZ in the autumn of 2018. We can be confident that they will be ranked 2 and 1 in the world, but England will have home advantage. I expect this will be one of the most hyped games in the history of rugby. But how will England change between now and then? Obviously there will be injuries, loss of form, players coming from nowhere, etc, but here are some things I expect:

- England will get a lot better. We are still a young and inexperienced side, and I would have thought we would naturally get about 20% better over this timescale.
- Elliot Daly will be fullback. Mike Brown has been a great servant but is in decline, and Daly is a wonderful footballer. I think this might be Daly's long-term position for England.
- Jamie George will be hooker, Luke Cowan-Dickie will be the 'finisher' on the bench, and Itoje will be Captain. Hartley has been lucky in terms of not missing internationals, when he eventually does I think the case for change will be clear.
- Underhill will be in the matchday squad, and will quite possibly be the starting 7. England have some fantastic backrows at age-group level, but Underhill will come into contention before them and he may be able to push past Haskell. I think Robshaw will still be the starting 6 at this point.

What does everyone else think?

He's talking about Jones view that the lions can beat NZ.

I wonder what Eddie Jones makes of Billy V pi$$ing himself.

You really want to talk about it since its the 2nd time you've brought it up, what do you think.

The Lions can beat the ABs with 4 captains because they're there for the taking

Billy had a good night...so what.

I don't see why the Lions cant beat NZ as long as they prepare well enough. The squad has some absolutely outstanding players going!

For sure it'll be a battle

It'll be an insanely hard task...but not impossible!

The right personnel on the field and the right preparation...theres a chance.

Well it's ramping up! And the good news is, is that the more we hear that the Lions will be bringing the goods and that they'll be a formidable team and that they fancy some wins, the more the ABs and the SR teams will be up for it. It's happening as we speak. So it will be epic. Can't wait.

No 7&1/2 wrote:You really want to talk about it since its the 2nd time you've brought it up, what do you think.

I dont know but Id love to see the English media bring it up in a press conference.

Rugby player gets drunk shocker.......who cares?

Probably best just move on then.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Rugby player gets drunk shocker.......who cares?

He pi$$ed his pants too.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Rugby player gets drunk shocker.......who cares?

Exactly marra....

He only wet himself as he saw the dwarf tossers.

Honestly though, pisssing your pants is inexcusable. Don't care how drunk you are. It's just wrong.

England rugby has evolved into a bunch of pant pisssers

Wums unite. Good to see an Irish man and a Kiwi on the same side after the last match.

There is loads and loads of improvement to be had with Vunipola's drink handling ability

7.5

Are the kids off school this week?

The only time ebop has been schooled is on this forum.

Makes you wish for the days of ghost. Some conversations broke out from his wums rather than the other way around!

Seems strange for a Kiwi to be criticising an England player for having problems with drinking on a night out! Maybe he should have got naked and arrested

Cyril wrote:Seems strange for a Kiwi to be criticising an England player for having problems with drinking on a night out! Maybe he should have got naked and arrested

yes Cyril I was thinking a bit "pot, kettle, black...."

ebop wrote:England rugby has evolved into a bunch of pant pisssers

Danny Care seems to have a problem going to the toilet too.

ebop wrote:There is loads and loads of improvement to be had with Vunipola's drink handling ability

What knob reported this post?

Anyway it will be fun to see what shenanigans the English guys get up to on tour this summer.

I wonder will Gatland put Sexton and Farrell in the same room? I think its almost guaranteed. It was quite funny to see them at each other all match with sly digs.

Not being a great fan of the Lions, I find it annoying that this summers tour is going to be crucial for the development of the majority of our better players. And that's a fact.

Solomona scored again. Taken to union like a duck to water.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Solomona scored again. Taken to union like a duck to water.

Austin Healey wants him in the Lions. If you want a league-style try scoring machine, though, Ashton would probably still be the better bet.

Think he has been firmly found out on the international scene and threw his toys out of the pram re the saxons. Added to the fact that he's unavailable as in France and to be honest some of the actual finishes from Solomona are been out of the absolute top drawer and not just the guy at the end of the passing line. The question remains does he want to play for England. ..For my money he's easily good enough.

Im not questioning his ability...im questioning all the other aspects.

No 7&1/2 wrote:The question remains does he want to play for England. ..For my money he's easily good enough.

For the RFU's money, too, I'm sure he will...

Good.

We'll have the best Polynesian team in Europe soon....

We're just like every other team in the world, I agree the pacific islanders should play for their home countries but for as long as it benefits New Zealand and Australia nothing will change.

1 Mako V
6 Hughes
8 Billy V

11 Solomana
12 Teo
13 Manu
14 Roko

Not a bad start for building a team!

Te'o of course has an English mother.

Strictly speaking you could throw Hartley and Harrison in there too. Embrace it.

Hammersmith harrier wrote:We're just like every other team in the world, I agree the pacific islanders should play for their home countries but for as long as it benefits New Zealand and Australia nothing will change.

Most of ours were born in NZ. Granted so were most of Australia's PI players

In any case, NZ are in favour of the proposed 5 year residency rule ...

1 Mako V
2 Hartley
6 Hughes
7 Harrison
8 Billy V

11 Solomana
12 Teo
13 Manu
14 Roko

I wonder whether Mike Brown's international obituary is being written a bit prematurely.

I can't shake this idea that he won't be selected for the Lions, won't play much, if at all, in Argentina, and so will actually get some rest, and a decent pre-season compared with the last three years.

On the back of that, and potentially a new club, he'll start to show some of the form which made him player of the Six Nations in 2014. Which will lead EJ to keep selecting him until the World Cup.

Rugby Fan wrote:I wonder whether Mike Brown's international obituary is being written a bit prematurely.

I can't shake this idea that he won't be selected for the Lions, won't play much, if at all, in Argentina, and so will actually get some rest, and a decent pre-season compared with the last three years.

On the back of that, and potentially a new club, he'll start to show some of the form which made him player of the Six Nations in 2014. Which will lead EJ to keep selecting him until the World Cup.

Did you watch him on Saturday? He looked fresh. He ran. He beat defenders. He scored tries. He passed. Admittedly against a well organised but limited Newcastle side, but he did everything you could expect of him and showed that he could play in a different style.

I still think the not passing thing at international level is a deliberate tactical instruction: take it into contact and ensure it gets recycled unless it's clearly on. Make yards, beat a couple of defenders, set up a platform. What if he's been told to do the same job as Billy, only in a 15 shirt?

To look at it another way: When in Eddie's entire coaching history has he persisted with a player who has consistently done something that wasn't asked for? Eddie has had ample opportunity to tell Brown to play differently, try someone else at full back, or replace him entirely. Instead, he's dropped Goode, and hasn't subbed Brown even against Italy and Scotland after the game was won.

I just can't escape the conclusion that Brown is doing exactly what Eddie has asked of him. When England break down defences, it's through giving Ford and JJ front foot ball rather than through counter-attacking from the back 3.

Poorfour wrote:

Rugby Fan wrote:I wonder whether Mike Brown's international obituary is being written a bit prematurely.

I can't shake this idea that he won't be selected for the Lions, won't play much, if at all, in Argentina, and so will actually get some rest, and a decent pre-season compared with the last three years.

On the back of that, and potentially a new club, he'll start to show some of the form which made him player of the Six Nations in 2014. Which will lead EJ to keep selecting him until the World Cup.

Did you watch him on Saturday? He looked fresh. He ran. He beat defenders. He scored tries. He passed. Admittedly against a well organised but limited Newcastle side, but he did everything you could expect of him and showed that he could play in a different style.

I still think the not passing thing at international level is a deliberate tactical instruction: take it into contact and ensure it gets recycled unless it's clearly on. Make yards, beat a couple of defenders, set up a platform. What if he's been told to do the same job as Billy, only in a 15 shirt?

To look at it another way: When in Eddie's entire coaching history has he persisted with a player who has consistently done something that wasn't asked for? Eddie has had ample opportunity to tell Brown to play differently, try someone else at full back, or replace him entirely. Instead, he's dropped Goode, and hasn't subbed Brown even against Italy and Scotland after the game was won.

I just can't escape the conclusion that Brown is doing exactly what Eddie has asked of him. When England break down defences, it's through giving Ford and JJ front foot ball rather than through counter-attacking from the back 3.

Excellent post. Agree entirely.

Poorfour wrote:

Rugby Fan wrote:I wonder whether Mike Brown's international obituary is being written a bit prematurely.

I can't shake this idea that he won't be selected for the Lions, won't play much, if at all, in Argentina, and so will actually get some rest, and a decent pre-season compared with the last three years.

On the back of that, and potentially a new club, he'll start to show some of the form which made him player of the Six Nations in 2014. Which will lead EJ to keep selecting him until the World Cup.

Did you watch him on Saturday? He looked fresh. He ran. He beat defenders. He scored tries. He passed. Admittedly against a well organised but limited Newcastle side, but he did everything you could expect of him and showed that he could play in a different style.

I still think the not passing thing at international level is a deliberate tactical instruction: take it into contact and ensure it gets recycled unless it's clearly on. Make yards, beat a couple of defenders, set up a platform. What if he's been told to do the same job as Billy, only in a 15 shirt?

To look at it another way: When in Eddie's entire coaching history has he persisted with a player who has consistently done something that wasn't asked for? Eddie has had ample opportunity to tell Brown to play differently, try someone else at full back, or replace him entirely. Instead, he's dropped Goode, and hasn't subbed Brown even against Italy and Scotland after the game was won.

I just can't escape the conclusion that Brown is doing exactly what Eddie has asked of him. When England break down defences, it's through giving Ford and JJ front foot ball rather than through counter-attacking from the back 3.

We were a shadow of the side we have been this season. But never the less he played well.

I think it comes back again to the question...will senior (non Lions) be rested or will they go to Argentina.

Players like Brown, Hartley, Haskell, Kruis & Robshaw (injury returnees), Care etc etc

I suspect most will go if they are available....Jones will want to still take the strongest team possible.

GeordieFalcon wrote:I think it comes back again to the question...will senior (non Lions) be rested or will they go to Argentina.

Players like Brown, Hartley, Haskell, Kruis & Robshaw (injury returnees), Care etc etc

I suspect most will go if they are available....Jones will want to still take the strongest team possible.

Telegraph asked and answered a similar question in what is quite a clickbaity article, forcing you to click through 38 pages to get the squad. But here it is:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union/2017/03/28/englands-summer-tour-argentina-plane-south-america-13-englishmen/

Some odd selections, picking 4 loose-heads and 2 tight-heads being the most obvious one for me, but noticeably they have picked the strongest players available across the board (e.g. their two 15s are Brown and Goode).

I would hope Eddie Jones picked a strong 23, a couple of cover players for those guys and then an extra 8 or so guys to get experience. So that could be Genge, Spencer, Mallinder, Underhill, Marchant, Haley, guys who haven't previously had a proper look in at senior internationals but who are going to come into the equation before the next World Cup.

I'd also be in favour of no-one eligible for the Under-20 World Cup to go. Send them to that comp.

I don't know whether to continue after it stated " big things are expected of Keiron Brookes"

Lol. Tommy Taylor is the archetypal modern day prop.

So they are suggesting...if it was a larger squad....

LH:
Marler, Mullan, Genge, Catt

Hooker:
George, Taylor, Youngs

TH:
Brookes, Hill

Locks:
Kruis, Attwood, Ewells, Symmons, Beaumont

Back Row:
Robshaw, Wood, Haskell, Hughes, Clifford, Underhill, Mercer

SH:
Care, Robson, Spencer

FH:
Ford, Lozowski, Slade

Centre:
Teo, Manu Tuilagi, Marchant, Devoto

Wings:
Nowell, May, Yarde, Solomana

FB:
Brown, Goode

Why is there always an assumption that Mako will get a Lions spot ahead of Marler, when Marler has almost exclusively been ahead of him in the England pecking order?