How will England evolve before they next play New Zealand?

First topic message reminder :

England next play NZ in the autumn of 2018. We can be confident that they will be ranked 2 and 1 in the world, but England will have home advantage. I expect this will be one of the most hyped games in the history of rugby. But how will England change between now and then? Obviously there will be injuries, loss of form, players coming from nowhere, etc, but here are some things I expect:

- England will get a lot better. We are still a young and inexperienced side, and I would have thought we would naturally get about 20% better over this timescale.
- Elliot Daly will be fullback. Mike Brown has been a great servant but is in decline, and Daly is a wonderful footballer. I think this might be Daly's long-term position for England.
- Jamie George will be hooker, Luke Cowan-Dickie will be the 'finisher' on the bench, and Itoje will be Captain. Hartley has been lucky in terms of not missing internationals, when he eventually does I think the case for change will be clear.
- Underhill will be in the matchday squad, and will quite possibly be the starting 7. England have some fantastic backrows at age-group level, but Underhill will come into contention before them and he may be able to push past Haskell. I think Robshaw will still be the starting 6 at this point.

What does everyone else think?

I think theres a few on there I wouldn't be selecting and a few they haven't listed that I would be.

Don't see what the selection of Symons would give. We have other younger locks with much more to offer.

Likewise whats the point in taking Manu. The guy is a sick note...they need to be looking elsewhere - James, Addison, Tompkins etc etc

And no Haley for FB?

Gooseberry wrote:Why is there always an assumption that Mako will get a Lions spot ahead of Marler, when Marler has almost exclusively been ahead of him in the England pecking order?

Mako has been ahead on recent time before injury. I think Mako is getting the nod due to the impact he brings, rather than starting. NZ also don't have the strongest scrummaging unit so is Marler really needed?

Mako is generally thought to be going as he was picked above better scrummagers last time and he's improved that aspect loads.

And is Brookes really the next in line. He's not fit enough. He wasn't fit enough for us...how is going to be fit enough for England!

Are there no other TH's? And what about Sinkler? Do they think he'll go with the Lions?

Tom Youngs won't be anywhere near the squad either, looks like a lazily thought out squad to me.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

Gooseberry wrote:Why is there always an assumption that Mako will get a Lions spot ahead of Marler, when Marler has almost exclusively been ahead of him in the England pecking order?

Mako has been ahead on recent time before injury. I think Mako is getting the nod due to the impact he brings, rather than starting. NZ also don't have the strongest scrummaging unit so is Marler really needed?

No he hasn't - Marler excused himself from the summer tour and wasn't starting in the autumn because Eddie declared wasn't back to full fitness after his summer off. Of the 8 matches when both players have been available and there's been no indication from the camp on fitness, Marler has started 6 (and one of the others was against Italy).

Pundits tend to overemphasise big carries. There's no doubt that Mako is the better carrier but Marler's scrummaging and defence are both still better. I wouldn't be surprised to see them both tour. New Zealand don't have a big scrumaging pack - but it's a heck of a lot better than the Australia pack of 2013, and I can't imagine that Rowntree and Borthwick will be arguing the case for taking anything less than the best setpiece operators.

I think Mako started all of the AI games? If fit, he'd have started the 6N too. Marler got in because Mako was injured, I'd expect him start again when fully available. Im not sure Marler's defence is better really, his carrying and hands certainly arent.

Hammersmith harrier wrote:Tom Youngs won't be anywhere near the squad either, looks like a lazily thought out squad to me.

Tom Youngs

Lets not go down the Tom Youngs route yet!!!

I've just came out in a cold sweat.......

I'm with Poorfour on this one; when both are available Jones invariably picks Marler and his defence is much better too, he doesn't have great hands but that's the only edge Mako has on him.

Hammersmith harrier wrote:Tom Youngs won't be anywhere near the squad either, looks like a lazily thought out squad to me.

Agree...filling column inches...

So, back to my original question...

If they are missed by the Lions....Do you take Brown, Hartley, Kruis, Robshaw, Haskell etc.etc

Or do you take a Fringe EPS / Saxons based side.

Hammersmith harrier wrote:I'm with Poorfour on this one; when both are available Jones invariably picks Marler and his defence is much better too, he doesn't have great hands but that's the only edge Mako has on him.

I dont think this is the case. Mako is a much better carrier and on the deck. Tbh, I prefer Marler too but I think Jones prefers Mako. He also seems to fit in with the pack makeup as we lack carriers.

GeordieFalcon wrote:So, back to my original question...

If they are missed by the Lions....Do you take Brown, Hartley, Kruis, Robshaw, Haskell etc.etc

Or do you take a Fringe EPS / Saxons based side.

You take who's available and try getting the new players to gel into that, there's no benefit of taking a squad that largely won't be playing in the autumn.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

Hammersmith harrier wrote:I'm with Poorfour on this one; when both are available Jones invariably picks Marler and his defence is much better too, he doesn't have great hands but that's the only edge Mako has on him.

I dont think this is the case. Mako is a much better carrier and on the deck. Tbh, I prefer Marler too but I think Jones prefers Mako. He also seems to fit in with the pack makeup as we lack carriers.

I do think it's the opposite, Jones seems to pick a solid and dependable pack to start and then injects it with more carrying later on.

Marler/Mako
Hartley
Cole
Kruis
Itoje
Robshaw
Haskell
Billy V

That's the preferred starting pack and having a strong dependable scrummager seems to fit better but it's only a minor gripe.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

Hammersmith harrier wrote:I'm with Poorfour on this one; when both are available Jones invariably picks Marler and his defence is much better too, he doesn't have great hands but that's the only edge Mako has on him.

I dont think this is the case. Mako is a much better carrier and on the deck. Tbh, I prefer Marler too but I think Jones prefers Mako. He also seems to fit in with the pack makeup as we lack carriers.

Stephen Jones, maybe.

Eddie Jones has consistently picked Marler first except - as I said above - in the AIs, when he said in an interview that he didn't think Marler was fully fit after a summer away from rugby. Mako's had one start under Eddie in a properly competitive fixture when Marler's been available AND fit.

Agree with that pack Harrier, happy to agree to disagree on Mako/Marler

Hammersmith harrier wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:So, back to my original question...

If they are missed by the Lions....Do you take Brown, Hartley, Kruis, Robshaw, Haskell etc.etc

Or do you take a Fringe EPS / Saxons based side.

You take who's available and try getting the new players to gel into that, there's no benefit of taking a squad that largely won't be playing in the autumn.

Yeah I tend to agree with you.

I think a starting XV will be something like this:

1 Marler
2 Hartley (No lions call)
3 Sinkler
4 Kruis
5 Lawes (No Lions call)
6 Robshaw
7 Haskell
8 Hughes

9 Care
10 Ford (No Lions call)
11 May
12 Slade
13 Teo
14 Solomana
15 Goode

Poorfour wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

Hammersmith harrier wrote:I'm with Poorfour on this one; when both are available Jones invariably picks Marler and his defence is much better too, he doesn't have great hands but that's the only edge Mako has on him.

I dont think this is the case. Mako is a much better carrier and on the deck. Tbh, I prefer Marler too but I think Jones prefers Mako. He also seems to fit in with the pack makeup as we lack carriers.

Stephen Jones, maybe.

Eddie Jones has consistently picked Marler first except - as I said above - in the AIs, when he said in an interview that he didn't think Marler was fully fit after a summer away from rugby. Mako's had one start under Eddie in a properly competitive fixture when Marler's been available AND fit.

Nope Eddie.

We've got differing opinions on Jones opinions, no problem.

Looks like a bloody strong team considering the number of players who'll be unaivabke, I can't imagine Goode being near the side again; one of Daly, Brown, Watson or Nowell will be available you'd imagine.

Ah I forgot about Nowell

I think Daly and Brown and possibly Watson will travel to NZ

Can/does Mercer play 6?

No 7&1/2 wrote:Can/does Mercer play 6?

He's a 6/8 from what I can gather.

Tbh, I'd be very surprised if he travels. He's one of the leadership group in a strong U20 side that will want to contest, if not win the U20 WC. I think it's better for him to travel and shine in the WC than do tackle bag duties for the full side.

Hammersmith harrier wrote:I'm with Poorfour on this one; when both are available Jones invariably picks Marler and his defence is much better too, he doesn't have great hands but that's the only edge Mako has on him.

Sorry to re-hash this but the stats don't back this up (I've only checked as I really don't see much between them in defence from casual viewing). Both had very similar tackles/completed in the AI & 6N. I think Mako averaged around 12 a game against the big sides and Marler a touch higher. Marler missed 2 tackles and Mako the 1. I think they both make similar impact in the tackle area too.

If we were going to split hairs, Marler is the better scrummager. Mako is capable of being dominant but in general is a bit of a lottery as he sometimes struggles to hold his own weight. Mako generally makes better carries, not always. He seems to pick better lines and has more of a backrow type awareness and hands. Horses for courses.....2 very good options.

I'd say Marler is more dominant in defence than Mako, he doesn't do it as much now but he's got the ability to hit the opposition on to the back foot instead of making gainline tackles. It's an area where Lawes has the edge on statistically better defenders like Gray or Launchbury.

Lawes dominant tackles are usually against 80kg halfbacks though!

His highlight reel hits are but even in the recent 6N he was the most dominant lock just a shame he coughed up possession so often.

Hammersmith harrier wrote:I'd say Marler is more dominant in defence than Mako, he doesn't do it as much now but he's got the ability to hit the opposition on to the back foot instead of making gainline tackles. It's an area where Lawes has the edge on statistically better defenders like Gray or Launchbury.

One thing I noticed a bit was attackers avoiding Marler either by passing or moving into a different channel. Tackles completed may be similar, but Marler plays an interesting role in shaping the defence that I haven't seen Mako doing. I think he also sometimes defends in a wider channel than Mako.

Geordie is about to have a mental breakdown I imagine.

Solomona commits his future to England and is likely to be picked for the Argentina tour.

Hammersmith harrier wrote:Geordie is about to have a mental breakdown I imagine.

Solomona commits his future to England and is likely to be picked for the Argentina tour.

Its a disgrace he could keep out English talent like Rokoduguini

Well ive been told all morning that the world is coming to an end because of Brexit....but that's small fry compared to that news you have just landed on me Hammer...



The Tyne bridge is looking a good spot for a jump....

Another kiwi propping up England's national team

You guys are hilarious

You need to get a life ebop, you're constant whinging stopped being funny a long time ago.

Not trying to be funny, just letting the likes of yourself know that it's a disgrace that England are a team of SH imports

I'm sure we'll live not that I understand why you're so concerned with all things England.

I'm sure you will live

Serious question, do you think integrity is important in sport?

It is and you play within the rules, obviously an alien concept to an All Blacks fan.

DON'T FEED THE TROLL

Saturday will tell us much about Cipriani and Wade's credibility. Looks wet in Dublin like a couple of weeks back.
Whether Jones wants another look is the worry, though both performed well last summer in Africa.

I'm excited to see Solomona get a crack in the summer....be it England or Lions! I thought it would be Charnley ripping it up bur Solomona just looks quality.

kingelderfield wrote:Saturday will tell us much about Cipriani and Wade's credibility. Looks wet in Dublin like a couple of weeks back.
Whether Jones wants another look is the worry, though both performed well last summer in Africa.

Suspect Robson and Simpson are more likely to make an impact on their England chances (if they play).

Its amazing how hypocritical you can be when the guy plays for your team (Hughes/wasps), though I do have a soft spot for Sale, Diamond etc.
Seriously the sooner a 5 year residency is brought in the better. Probably 10 years to late.

Hughes and Solomana is like going back to the dark days of Henry Paul and Lesley Vainikolo and Hape!

And its a slap in the face to young English talent!

I hope Charnley sticks with it, a proper preseason will help. Though I can't see him making a international challenge, but you never know.

There just isn't the space in the squad or the games available. If/brown drops out it may create space should Daly or Watson drop back to 15 but looking at the ages of the group of wingers currently there they look pretty well set.

Hammersmith harrier wrote:You need to get a life ebop, you're constant whinging stopped being funny a long time ago.

*your


Meanwhile England havent picked him yet and the RFU are leading the calls for the residency period to be extended to 5 years, and may (as they have with cricket) impose their own tougher rule regardless of which way World Rugby goes in the vote this May (which I'm sure NZRFU will back them on?)

It does make me boil to think that Wade could be left out for a residency player.
Maybe if Wade crossed over to Wigan RL he'd improve his Union national chances?
Actually it would do May the world of good to have a season knuckle dragging as he might learn to run in the right direction.

Gooseberry wrote:

Hammersmith harrier wrote:You need to get a life ebop, you're constant whinging stopped being funny a long time ago.

*your


Meanwhile England havent picked him yet and the RFU are leading the calls for the residency period to be extended to 5 years, and may (as they have with cricket) impose their own tougher rule regardless of which way World Rugby goes in the vote this May (which I'm sure NZRFU will back them on?)

NZ are in favour (we lose more players than we gain after all) of it, as are SA and Arg, so the SANZAAR block vote is going to go in favour (I don't know what they've promised Aus for dropping their opposition)

As for cricket, if England return Stokes then NZ will be able to give De Grandhomme back to Zimbabwe

Wade is already left out for 2 residency players. Solomona is better than either of those for my money.