How will England evolve before they next play New Zealand?

by DaveM Sun 12 Mar 2017, 12:04 pm

First topic message reminder :

England next play NZ in the autumn of 2018. We can be confident that they will be ranked 2 and 1 in the world, but England will have home advantage. I expect this will be one of the most hyped games in the history of rugby. But how will England change between now and then? Obviously there will be injuries, loss of form, players coming from nowhere, etc, but here are some things I expect:

- England will get a lot better. We are still a young and inexperienced side, and I would have thought we would naturally get about 20% better over this timescale.
- Elliot Daly will be fullback. Mike Brown has been a great servant but is in decline, and Daly is a wonderful footballer. I think this might be Daly's long-term position for England.
- Jamie George will be hooker, Luke Cowan-Dickie will be the 'finisher' on the bench, and Itoje will be Captain. Hartley has been lucky in terms of not missing internationals, when he eventually does I think the case for change will be clear.
- Underhill will be in the matchday squad, and will quite possibly be the starting 7. England have some fantastic backrows at age-group level, but Underhill will come into contention before them and he may be able to push past Haskell. I think Robshaw will still be the starting 6 at this point.

What does everyone else think?

by Hammersmith harrier Wed 29 Mar 2017, 10:02 am

Wade needs to learn to tackle before he's going to be considered, it's not enough at international level to just score tries.

by Geordie Wed 29 Mar 2017, 10:10 am

Ill say again, no one is questioning Solomonas talent...he's outstanding...its the other aspects.

And yes whilst its legal and Eddie Jones KPI's are to "WIN Games" he will pick who he can.

Just doesn't sit well with me.

by kingelderfield Wed 29 Mar 2017, 10:17 am

Wade has improved his defense considerably, however pure physics will always intervene at some point.
Honestly though trust me it is all about scoring tries. Let's see what Saturday brings?

by Hammersmith harrier Wed 29 Mar 2017, 10:21 am

It's not though is it or Jack Nowell wouldn't be so highly rated.

by Gooseberry Wed 29 Mar 2017, 10:34 am

kingelderfield wrote:Wade has improved his defense considerably, however pure physics will always intervene at some point.
Honestly though trust me it is all about scoring tries. Let's see what Saturday brings?

True, thats why Tom Varndell has so many caps.

Tumbleweed

by Sgt_Pooly Wed 29 Mar 2017, 10:51 am

I wouldn't have Wade near a squad personally, Ive see no improvements in his defence.

by No 7&1/2 Wed 29 Mar 2017, 11:01 am

Probably slightly better than Rokoduguni or Yarde. ..at least on par. I cant help but feel if wade was 6 foot he'd be in the team.

by Geordie Wed 29 Mar 2017, 11:14 am

Talk that Carl Fearns might indeed make the Argentina tour.

Thoughts?

by Gooseberry Wed 29 Mar 2017, 11:26 am

GeordieFalcon wrote:Talk that Carl Fearns might indeed make the Argentina tour.

Thoughts?

While it would make it even more embaressing for everyone if he walked out on his Gloucester contract as rumoured.

No idea how much hes progressed but he should be at peak in terms of age and experience and he was long a fringe player in his youth.
Backrow selections will be a bit odd for England, its an area they likely wont be missing many Lions for but probably have the most openings in, so you could understand Jones wanting a look at him.

by Geordie Wed 29 Mar 2017, 11:32 am

I confess to not seeing much of him in France, but the reviews have been highly positive. Injury free, and the highly physical aggressive player we all hoped for.

Remains to be seen if he would tour and yes this whole contract thing is hanging over him now aswell.

I agree Back row is an area we need to really look at on this tour.

We might see a back row of :

6 Robshaw
7 Haskell
8 Hughes

Which I don't think will tell us much.

by nlpnlp Wed 29 Mar 2017, 2:07 pm

I think Wood, Harrison and Clifford would all be knocking on the door for selection if Robshaw and/or Haskell were left at home to fully recuperate from their recent injuries. The only bolter to me would be Underhill and he probably could do without being worked into the ground.

I think the likes of Fearns and Ewers have their followers but have not consistently stayed fit, or put in performances to demand selection. It would be a bit of a slap in the face for those players above who have been in the squad if not the team throughout the 6 nations.

by Geordie Wed 29 Mar 2017, 2:19 pm

Don't see the point in taking Tom Wood. I genuinely don't.

Harrison will be going well to tour as well. Havent watched him much recently so i'm probably being unfair if he has been playing well (like last season).

Clifford will tour and he needs two BIG performances to really put himself in the mix I think.

by No 7&1/2 Wed 29 Mar 2017, 2:31 pm

I am interested by the scrum half's. Wouldn't be that surprised to find both care and youngs available for Argentina but I would like to see Robson starting...then the next choice of Simpson and spencer. Its a shame the latter doesn't get more game time.

by Geordie Wed 29 Mar 2017, 2:39 pm

Yeah I think we need to find some young SH's but at the moment Youngs and Care are the ones...and will be fore the foreseeable future especially Youngs..he's only about 25 isn't he.

by No 7&1/2 Wed 29 Mar 2017, 2:40 pm

He's young enough. Not a huge fan though.

by SecretFly Wed 29 Mar 2017, 2:42 pm

Isn't Youngs very lucky that he happens to be young enough for his name not to be an issue yet. That's great timing from him but I'd seriously think about legally changing his surname before 2024.

by Gooseberry Wed 29 Mar 2017, 2:56 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:I am interested by the scrum half's. Wouldn't be that surprised to find both care and youngs available for Argentina but I would like to see Robson starting...then the next choice of Simpson and spencer. Its a shame the latter doesn't get more game time.

Sepncer and Robson are the other two in the the EPS.
Is Simpson even still a thing? I wouldve thought his time for tests had passed.

Joe Marchant and Mike Hayley seem to be the forgotten men of the EPS.
Assuming Farrel and JJ go with the Lions theres room for a center or two (along with Teo and Slade, possibly Manu injuries allowing) in the tour squad, and although Brown will likley be available theres a good chance both Daly and Watson wont be ... which could leave the door open for Hayely or another fullback.
Neither got in the training squads but they much have been on the radar to get in the December 45.

by Gooseberry Wed 29 Mar 2017, 2:57 pm

SecretFly wrote:Isn't Youngs very lucky that he happens to be young enough for his name not to be an issue yet. That's great timing from him but I'd seriously think about legally changing his surname before 2024.

That Welsh chap Die Young needs to change his first.

(Bens 27 btw)

by Geordie Wed 29 Mar 2017, 3:15 pm

Is Youngs 27?

Not old though is it. He'll be around for quite a while yet....unless someone comes in and shows genuine consistency.

Although, id say in Youngs defence he has improved his consistency recently.

by Gwlad Wed 29 Mar 2017, 3:18 pm

ebop wrote:Not trying to be funny, just letting the likes of yourself know that it's a disgrace that ~~England~~ NZ are a team of SH PI imports

by Poorfour Wed 29 Mar 2017, 4:23 pm

Gooseberry wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:I am interested by the scrum half's. Wouldn't be that surprised to find both care and youngs available for Argentina but I would like to see Robson starting...then the next choice of Simpson and spencer. Its a shame the latter doesn't get more game time.

Sepncer and Robson are the other two in the the EPS.
Is Simpson even still a thing? I wouldve thought his time for tests had passed.

Joe Marchant and Mike Hayley seem to be the forgotten men of the EPS.
Assuming Farrel and JJ go with the Lions theres room for a center or two (along with Teo and Slade, possibly Manu injuries allowing) in the tour squad, and although Brown will likley be available theres a good chance both Daly and Watson wont be ... which could leave the door open for Hayely or another fullback.
Neither got in the training squads but they much have been on the radar to get in the December 45.

Eddie's said that the EPS is basically his long term development squad - players he wants to keep an eye on and have influence over. The training squad is the group in contention for the next game.

Marchant isn't forgotten - just not baked yet - and with JJ in excellent form there's been no need for him. I assume the same applies to Haley. Wouldn't be at all surprised to see Marchant trialled in Argentina as a direct substitute for JJ.

by Cumbrian Thu 30 Mar 2017, 2:28 pm

Gooseberry wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:I am interested by the scrum half's. Wouldn't be that surprised to find both care and youngs available for Argentina but I would like to see Robson starting...then the next choice of Simpson and spencer. Its a shame the latter doesn't get more game time.

Sepncer and Robson are the other two in the the EPS.
Is Simpson even still a thing? I wouldve thought his time for tests had passed.

Joe Marchant and Mike Hayley seem to be the forgotten men of the EPS.
Assuming Farrel and JJ go with the Lions theres room for a center or two (along with Teo and Slade, possibly Manu injuries allowing) in the tour squad, and although Brown will likley be available theres a good chance both Daly and Watson wont be ... which could leave the door open for Hayely or another fullback.
Neither got in the training squads but they much have been on the radar to get in the December 45.

Agreed that they seem somewhat forgotten (by the fans anyway), a fact I find particularly strange in Haley's case. As fans we are looking for the next 15 and seemed to have identified Elliott Daly (largely down to Eddie I guess) as the next cab off the rank. Thi is despite the fact that I can't find a single match in the last three seasons where he started at FB for Wasps. I'm pretty sure that Gopperth and Cipriani are covering that position rather than Daly when there are injuries too.

by No 7&1/2 Thu 30 Mar 2017, 2:40 pm

Haley looked class for the saxons until his injury but I guess as he's not had a sniff since its not that people don't rate him more that we think jones is looking elsewhere. Daly seems the obvious one even though he foesnt play full back for Wasps as he played there earlier in his career, we have some very good options on the wings not so many at full back and jones seems to want him in the team full stop.

by robbo277 Sun 02 Apr 2017, 7:52 pm

Eddie Jones watching the O's play Stade today. One English player on show, wouldn't bet against him touring this summer.

by lostinwales Sun 02 Apr 2017, 8:42 pm

Poorfour wrote:
Gooseberry wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:I am interested by the scrum half's. Wouldn't be that surprised to find both care and youngs available for Argentina but I would like to see Robson starting...then the next choice of Simpson and spencer. Its a shame the latter doesn't get more game time.

Sepncer and Robson are the other two in the the EPS.
Is Simpson even still a thing? I wouldve thought his time for tests had passed.

Joe Marchant and Mike Hayley seem to be the forgotten men of the EPS.
Assuming Farrel and JJ go with the Lions theres room for a center or two (along with Teo and Slade, possibly Manu injuries allowing) in the tour squad, and although Brown will likley be available theres a good chance both Daly and Watson wont be ... which could leave the door open for Hayely or another fullback.
Neither got in the training squads but they much have been on the radar to get in the December 45.

Eddie's said that the EPS is basically his long term development squad - players he wants to keep an eye on and have influence over. The training squad is the group in contention for the next game.

Marchant isn't forgotten - just not baked yet - and with JJ in excellent form there's been no need for him. I assume the same applies to Haley. Wouldn't be at all surprised to see Marchant trialled in Argentina as a direct substitute for JJ.

Joe Marchant was playing in the U20's world cup last summer. I'd have thought he still has a little time to make a claim for a place

by Geordie Mon 03 Apr 2017, 12:35 pm

Anyone think Wade will get a spot on the Argentina tour?

by SecretFly Mon 03 Apr 2017, 12:45 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:Anyone think Wade will get a spot on the Argentina tour?

Well given most of the headliners will be away in New Zealand (in Gatland's 78 strong squad - coz he doesn't want to miss anyone and he's as nervous a f**k about choosing the wrong players) - I think it would be difficult to say a player of Wade's attacking ability wouldn't be considered for England's tour.

by Geordie Mon 03 Apr 2017, 12:52 pm

Yeah I think he has to tour.

For all Yarde hasn't actually played badly under Jones, I just don't think he's the answer. Wade offers more x-factor. He can make things happen.

I also wonder if Nathan Earle or James Short might make it. Short has had a good season.

by cb Mon 03 Apr 2017, 1:06 pm

Love to see Roko and Wade as the wingers. I not saying they are a long-term solution but would be fun if they could get a lot of ball.

CB

by Sgt_Pooly Mon 03 Apr 2017, 1:23 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:Anyone think Wade will get a spot on the Argentina tour?

I don't think he's up to Int rugby personally, plenty of better options ahead of him.

by No 7&1/2 Mon 03 Apr 2017, 1:30 pm

Even if wade does go we won't really learn anything. He was the pick of the bunch 4 years ago and is still waiting for a chance (though injury has played a part).

by Geordie Mon 03 Apr 2017, 1:39 pm

That true 7.5

by king_carlos Mon 03 Apr 2017, 2:13 pm

I'd love to see Wade try to get a season in Super Rugby to improve his defensive skills further and challenge himself to still stand out in attack.

If he isn't getting a look in for further caps then he wouldn't really be taking himself out of contention and he'd stand to learn a lot. It would also be an excellent chance to prove some doubters wrong.

by Sgt_Pooly Mon 03 Apr 2017, 2:26 pm

Super rugby to improve defence?? Im not seeing that theory KC, defence is almost optional in some Super games.

by Geordie Mon 03 Apr 2017, 3:18 pm

It just seems such a waste of an attacking player not to have another look at him.

But I guess he is behind Watson, May, Nowell and Daly at the moment.

by cascough Mon 03 Apr 2017, 3:24 pm

Regarding the Argentina tour, much of it will be dictated by who is fit and available, as opposed to pre determined plans of who EJ want's to look at.

For example if his front and second rows depart en masse for NZ, or succumb to injury, will he really still tinker with his backrow? That would mean sending out an incredibly inexperienced pack.

I reckon it will be more a case of picking the strongest team out of what is left, and where he has no choice but to pick someone green, that will be his experiment. It will be a good test of squad depth for sure, but I'd be wary about making it harder than it has to be just so I could get a look at a particular player.

by Geordie Mon 03 Apr 2017, 3:33 pm

I agree cascough.

Ive said before I don't think it should be used as a Saxons tour, even though it might well end up being an inexperienced squad due to Lions, Injuries etc

Pick the strongest team / squad possible.

But if a selection comes down to an decent experienced guy and a really impressive youngster, I'd maybe side toward the youngster.

Ie Mullan v Genge.

by Sgt_Pooly Mon 03 Apr 2017, 3:39 pm

Eddie won't do anything less GF, he's always put out the strongest side and seems very reluctant to tamper too much.

Genge for me on those options. Mullen is not a great scrummager, Genge just seems to be getting better and better.

by king_carlos Mon 03 Apr 2017, 3:41 pm

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Super rugby to improve defence?? Im not seeing that theory KC, defence is almost optional in some Super games.

If that were the case then we'd see far more players graduating from Super Rugby to Internationals with poor defence Sgt, which isn't the case.

Super Rugby sees more games where sides cut loose, creating more gaps, turnovers, overlaps and inevitably with it defensive mismatches and missed tackles. By and large the ability of SH players to attack the wider channels is still a notch above given the better handling skills and attacking 'vision' they develop from a younger age.

He'd be challenged one on one and in space more often in Super Rugby which would either show how his defence has improved or highlight it's shortcomings.

The dryer conditions Super Rugby usually enjoys also sees sides kick in field more rather than looking for touch. This would challenge Wade dealing with kicks under pressure and his decision making when he has claims the ball.

by No 7&1/2 Mon 03 Apr 2017, 3:41 pm

Think that a good point. We're likely to have an inexperienced front row with the real possibility of missing our first and second choices across it. Another good chance of missing 2 locks and our 8. A lot of changes in that pack which does make throwing in underhill harder which is a shame as 7 is an area we do need a bit of an experiment with.

by Geordie Mon 03 Apr 2017, 3:52 pm

I suppose that depends if Robshaw and Kruis are available to tour. I cant see them getting picked for the Lions. I assume they'll be fit to tour Argentina, so Eddie would select them.

And is it possible that we'll lose Lawes, Launchbury AND Itoje? Im not sure...I think we'll have one of those available.

And Hartley is another debate. He may very well be the player who captained his side to a joint world record winning run but wasn't selected for the Lions in the same year.

by cascough Mon 03 Apr 2017, 3:56 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Think that a good point. We're likely to have an inexperienced front row with the real possibility of missing our first and second choices across it. Another good chance of missing 2 locks and our 8. A lot of changes in that pack which does make throwing in underhill harder which is a shame as 7 is an area we do need a bit of an experiment with.

Unless Borthwick threatens to release those pics of Gatland in a sweet warm embrace with Rob Howley after the christmas do, then I think the reality is there will be enough resource left behind to put out what we might call a "first choice" pack. If you're left with Marler, Hartley/George, Sinckler, Launch, Kruis, Robshaw, Haskell, Hughes then there's definitely scope to look at Underhill.

Then again, Borthwick might threaten to besmirch Gatland's good name after all (plus injuries) and Jones' hand might be forced a bit and he will have to be conservative in certain areas where he might not otherwise have wanted to be.

Once the Lions squad is announced then I'm sure he will start making some hard plans, but until then it's all a bit too hypothetical. My plan for the tour would be to pick the strongest team available, don't change the gameplan but concentrate on executing it for longer periods of time than we have seen. Fringe players will inevitably get some game time in the process (whoever they may be). I always think it's easier for players to come and slot into a well oiled machine than not, so from that point of view the tour should be about continual improvement of the team overall, rather than targeted individuals/positions. IMO, anyway.

by Sgt_Pooly Mon 03 Apr 2017, 3:56 pm

I don't think we need to test him in Super rugby to know he has defensive shortcomings KC. Super Rugby isn't like test match rugby, there's much more space. He'd probably thrive in an attacking sense and get tortured by the numerous big wingers.

He's not a strong defensive player, I doubt he's ever going to really improve this. The question is, do his attacking abilities warrant selection despite him being able to targeted in defence? So far, it's been a big fat no.

by Poorfour Mon 03 Apr 2017, 6:03 pm

cascough wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:Think that a good point. We're likely to have an inexperienced front row with the real possibility of missing our first and second choices across it. Another good chance of missing 2 locks and our 8. A lot of changes in that pack which does make throwing in underhill harder which is a shame as 7 is an area we do need a bit of an experiment with.

Unless Borthwick threatens to release those pics of Gatland in a sweet warm embrace with Rob Howley after the christmas do, then I think the reality is there will be enough resource left behind to put out what we might call a "first choice" pack. If you're left with Marler, Hartley/George, Sinckler, Launch, Kruis, Robshaw, Haskell, Hughes then there's definitely scope to look at Underhill.

Then again, Borthwick might threaten to besmirch Gatland's good name after all (plus injuries) and Jones' hand might be forced a bit and he will have to be conservative in certain areas where he might not otherwise have wanted to be.

That's a pretty pessimistic view of the England contingent. Don't forget that the coaching team this time around includes 3 current or ex-England coaches - Borthwick, Farrell and Rowntree. I would expect the England pack to be better represented than on the previous tour.

Relatively few forwards covered themselves in glory this 6N - Furlong and Stander maintained their reputations, Warburton and Launchbury enhanced theirs, POM impressed me in the England game. Itoje showed that he's good enough to do a job out of position but I'd be staggered if he travelled as a back row. A lot of other players stood still and some went backwards. I think it's pretty open who gets picked in the pack, and England players may have a few more voices in their favour this time around - not least as back to back champions, despite the loss in Dublin.

by cascough Tue 04 Apr 2017, 8:39 am

Poorfour wrote:
cascough wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:Think that a good point. We're likely to have an inexperienced front row with the real possibility of missing our first and second choices across it. Another good chance of missing 2 locks and our 8. A lot of changes in that pack which does make throwing in underhill harder which is a shame as 7 is an area we do need a bit of an experiment with.

Unless Borthwick threatens to release those pics of Gatland in a sweet warm embrace with Rob Howley after the christmas do, then I think the reality is there will be enough resource left behind to put out what we might call a "first choice" pack. If you're left with Marler, Hartley/George, Sinckler, Launch, Kruis, Robshaw, Haskell, Hughes then there's definitely scope to look at Underhill.

Then again, Borthwick might threaten to besmirch Gatland's good name after all (plus injuries) and Jones' hand might be forced a bit and he will have to be conservative in certain areas where he might not otherwise have wanted to be.

That's a pretty pessimistic view of the England contingent. Don't forget that the coaching team this time around includes 3 current or ex-England coaches - Borthwick, Farrell and Rowntree. I would expect the England pack to be better represented than on the previous tour.

Relatively few forwards covered themselves in glory this 6N - Furlong and Stander maintained their reputations, Warburton and Launchbury enhanced theirs, POM impressed me in the England game. Itoje showed that he's good enough to do a job out of position but I'd be staggered if he travelled as a back row. A lot of other players stood still and some went backwards. I think it's pretty open who gets picked in the pack, and England players may have a few more voices in their favour this time around - not least as back to back champions, despite the loss in Dublin.

Putting aside my light heartedness, the pack I've left behind suggests that Eng will have 3 front rowers, 2 second rowers and 1 back row in the touring party. That's pretty strong representation, do you really think more than that will go? I'd be surprised if more than 2 locks go, given the competition. It could happen. You might see an extra front row go or perhaps even Haskell or Robshaw as an outside bet. So absolute max, including those 2 outside bets is 10. More realistically, you might consider the max to be 8. Then again, there may be a few marginal calls that might mean we're left with less.

It's not beyond the realms of possibility that they might think Hartley is lacking form and George is inexperienced. Owens, Best and Brown could easily go, so that's 5 on my original gambit. And then what if they only take 4 locks and Alun Wyn is captain, there's 3 spots up for grabs. Is it crazy to suggest they might go with 2 from J Gray/R Gray/Toner/Henderson/Ball leaving only 1 lock spot? Could be as low as 4? I think it's unlikely we will see more than 6 English forwards go myself but the point I was making was really about Eddie Jones' plans. He's pretty hamstrung until he knows where he stands.

by Geordie Tue 04 Apr 2017, 8:47 am

I genuinely don't think Hartley will travel. I just don't think he has played well enough to compete with other hookers and even Jamie George has more chance, and I think there are other options as captain.

by cascough Tue 04 Apr 2017, 8:56 am

On form, I'd agree. But I'm not a huge advocate of form over experience given the challenge that is the Lions, plus there's still plenty of time for players to lose/discover some form between now and then.

Much of it will be about how you perform on tour, so if Gatland thinks Hartley would be valuable as a leader (regardless of if he is captain), which I think he might, and if he rates him as a player, which I think he does, then he still has a good chance of making the touring party.

I reckon he might sneak in, but I wouldn't be surprised if he didn't.

by beshocked Tue 04 Apr 2017, 9:43 am

Agree - I like the look of Genge.

Probably a frontrow of Genge,Taylor/LCD,Sinckler which isn't bad.

cascough I doubt Fraser Brown will go. The h2h vs George won't have helped.

I actually think that now it's between Hartley and George who gets the 3rd hooker spot. Form vs experience.

Owens and Best I think will be picked.

From an England perspective if only one English hooker tours it's not bad because one can be the glue in a frontrow to Argentina.

by Geordie Tue 04 Apr 2017, 9:53 am

I think George would go to NZ over Hartley.

That means possibly..

1 Genge
2 Hartley
3 Sinkler

Nice young aggressive props, with calm headed, disciplined, experienced Hartley to guide them through.

by beshocked Tue 04 Apr 2017, 10:01 am

GeordieFalcon wrote:I think George would go to NZ over Hartley.

That means possibly..

1 Genge
2 Hartley
3 Sinkler

Nice young aggressive props, with calm headed, disciplined, experienced Hartley to guide them through.

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