How will England evolve before they next play New Zealand?

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England next play NZ in the autumn of 2018. We can be confident that they will be ranked 2 and 1 in the world, but England will have home advantage. I expect this will be one of the most hyped games in the history of rugby. But how will England change between now and then? Obviously there will be injuries, loss of form, players coming from nowhere, etc, but here are some things I expect:

- England will get a lot better. We are still a young and inexperienced side, and I would have thought we would naturally get about 20% better over this timescale.
- Elliot Daly will be fullback. Mike Brown has been a great servant but is in decline, and Daly is a wonderful footballer. I think this might be Daly's long-term position for England.
- Jamie George will be hooker, Luke Cowan-Dickie will be the 'finisher' on the bench, and Itoje will be Captain. Hartley has been lucky in terms of not missing internationals, when he eventually does I think the case for change will be clear.
- Underhill will be in the matchday squad, and will quite possibly be the starting 7. England have some fantastic backrows at age-group level, but Underhill will come into contention before them and he may be able to push past Haskell. I think Robshaw will still be the starting 6 at this point.

What does everyone else think?

robbo277 wrote:
Robshaw played 80 against Newcastle, so he's getting minutes under his belt at the moment. Although he's further along his recovery, I think he faces more competition than Kruis does at lock (Stander, O'Mahony, Warburton, Tipuric, Watson, Vunipola and Faletau gives you minimum 2 in each position, Warburton able to play on either flank and Stander able to cover 8), so he's probably a little further away from selection.

I can't see Watson touring. He was good, but not good enough that one 6N secures a Lions place. I'd see SOB and Moriarty as stronger contenders, though Moriarty is competing more directly with Faletau.

In terms of "getting minutes", I think Robshaw managed a little better than that. Billy "got minutes" in his club games, and arguably even in the 6N, but was clearly short of match fitness. Robshaw by contrast picked up exactly where he left off - if anything his form was a little better than before he got injured, albeit against comparatively weak opposition.

A good game against Sarries would be enough to put him in the mix, I think.

So expect something like....

1 Genge
2 Hartley
3 Sinkler
4 Kruis
5 Ewels?
6 Wood
7 Haskell
8 Hughes

9 Care
10 Lozowski
11 Yarde
12 Slade
13 Teo
14 May
15 Brown

GeordieFalcon wrote:So expect something like....

1 Genge
2 Hartley
3 Sinkler
4 Kruis
5 Ewels?
6 Wood
7 Haskell
8 Hughes

9 Care
10 Lozowski
11 Yarde
12 Slade
13 Teo
14 May
15 Brown

Id expect at least one "development" backrow place and quite possibly fullback too. These are both areas Jopnes has openly says he need better depth.

In that case?

1 Genge
2 Hartley
3 Sinkler
4 Kruis
5 Ewels?
6 Clifford
7 Haskell
8 Hughes

9 Care
10 Lozowski
11 Yarde
12 Slade
13 Teo
14 May
15 Haley

Geordiefalcon you either think Nowell is such a good winger he'll be on the Lions tour or behind two of the most overrated wingers in England. Which is it?

Being a bit more unorthodox I think Jones will pick this back three -

Solomona
Nowell
Brown

Sure it's a shame to stick with won't pass Brown but with no other 15s really putting their hands up.

Situation with Foden is one of the strangest. Used to be the starting 15 before Brown but now in the wilderness.


I think wingers in general need to look for work more.

Watson I think is an exciting runner with ball in hand but against Ireland - statisically he barely got the ball and when he did he ballsed up.

Wingers are bystanders if not doing anything.

I personally think Ashton was poor under Lancaster because he wasn't encouraged to play his natural game.

Too often we see wingers not being effective due to a lack of opportunities.

Brown made a lot of metres in the 6 nations because he got the ball again and again but against Scotland he ran 18 times, passed 3, that's poor.

With poor service like that.....

Not sure why passing the ball is something even some professionals can't master.

Teams that can mix their game up are generally the most dangerous IMO. England need to continue to work on their all round skills.

beshocked wrote:Situation with Foden is one of the strangest. Used to be the starting 15 before Brown but now in the wilderness.

He's been injured a fair bit though, hasn't he? He's also the same age as Brown so unlikely to be in the reckoning. Classy player at his best though and had a knack of scoring against France if I remember rightly.

Hartley has his strengths but he's simply not a well rounded enough rugby player.

His set piece is solid but compared to his peers his contribution around the park isn't good.

Not dynamic enough. He'll stay ahead of the likes of LCD and Taylor will they prove their set piece credentials though.

He looked lethargic in the 6 nations.

A hooker needs to do more these days than be strong in the set piece. You need to be an all rounder as a dynamic hooker can cause real problems to the opposition.

If England want to aspire out the ABs I think they need to ease out the likes of Hartley,Brown and sort out the backrow issues.

George, Goode and calum clark it is then.

I keep forgetting about Nowell. I would take him to NZ, but Im not sure Gatland will.

So yes he would be starting winger in Argentina.

Flippin Solomana! I know its going to happen but i'll not be impressed. I hate the thought of him playing in the white shirt...just like I am with Hughes.

If Hartley doesn't go to NZ and Englands starting props in the summer are Genge and Sinkler, put your mortgage on Hartley starting at 2.

no 7 & 1/2 I don't want them in the team unless they are good enough.

George - yes, Goode and Clark - very unlikely.

I want the best. Goode still has a lot to prove at international level. Clark - firstly needs to prove himself more at club level then at international level.

At FB there's not much competition, in the backrow there's lots of players but lack of standout options.

I know some people have jumped onto the Underhill bandwagon. Hopefully he can step up.

Geordiefalcon he's not English but let's be honest - England's squad very much has a foreign feel to it.

Quite a few players not born in England including the captain....   Neither were the Vunipola bros.

The Vunipola bros might well have been playing for Wales in different circumstances.

Hartley will be useful for the experience alongside Genge and Sinckler but I just think in the long term he needs easing out and we do need to try out other hooker options if George goes on the Lions.

I know the Hartley fan club is significant but this is a good opportunity for the likes of Taylor and LCD.

beshocked wrote:Hartley has his strengths but he's simply not a well rounded enough rugby player.

His set piece is solid but compared to his peers his contribution around the park isn't good.

Not dynamic enough. He'll stay ahead of the likes of LCD and Taylor will they prove their set piece credentials though.

I agree. And I think that is how it should be.

beshocked wrote:
A hooker needs to do more these days than be strong in the set piece. You need to be an all rounder as a dynamic hooker can cause real problems to the opposition.

If England want to aspire out the ABs I think they need to ease out the likes of Hartley,Brown and sort out the backrow issues.

I agree that a Hooker needs to be both. But if you haven't got both, the basics are still more important. Same goes for Brown. In terms of hooker, if we're talking about backup, until LCD or Taylor improve on their basics I wouldn't want to elevate either one of those to first or second choice. On that note, I read somewhere yesterday that LCD has improved his throwing. I haven't seen him much this season, is there any truth in that?

Fodens been playing wing recently for Saints and was a replacementry for much of the first half of the season.
Injuries ruined his England career, it's a massive shame for a great all round footballer but surely his time has passed now. He turns 32 this summer.

So I don't think it's in any way bizzare that he isn't playing or in the mix.

As for Ashton...he isn't in the mix firstly because of his disciplinary record, secondly because he doesn't have the all round game of guys like Nowell Daly and Watson and thirdly because he's off to France effectively ruling himself out for England. He's also another who's the wrong side of 30.
It's not exactly as if he's getting overlooked with talk of the foreign chap.

I'd be happier with a group of fairly raw kids playing than the short term 50 cap cavalry their to do a job. Despite only looking to stay for one cycle Jones does seem to be laying foundations with players who will be around for the next and possibly beyond....as well as getting the best from the old hands who still cut it like haskell.

LCD suffers from what youngs has in the past and ford with his kicking. People have seen him have a melt down on TV for England. All are generally good bur now have that attached to them. I think Taylor is ahead of LCD now but he's had throwing issues in the past. Reckon he'll be the bench option this summer. I have a feeling gatland will pick Hartley and George will go to Argentina but with the 4 or possibly 5 top nh hooker it could be any combo who go or push on with their national teams.

cascough I absolutely agree and even though I've criticised Hartley - he does add set piece reliability.

It's why he's always been better than T.Youngs IMO.

That's always been perhaps his greatest asset in his international career.

The problem is LCD or Taylor needed to be given some game time at some point and this tour IMO is a perfect opportunity.

We know what Hartley can do whether you like him or not.

No 7 & 1/2 of course you want Gatland to pick Hartley but for the reasons I've said I think Gatland will pick George. The more complete player and more dynamic player is better suited to face the Nzers IMO.

beshocked wrote:no 7 & 1/2 I don't want them in the team unless they are good enough.

George - yes, Goode and Clark - very unlikely.

I want the best. Goode still has a lot to prove at international level. Clark - firstly needs to prove himself more at club level then at international level.

At FB there's not much competition, in the backrow there's lots of players but lack of standout options.

I know some people have jumped onto the Underhill bandwagon. Hopefully he can step up.

Geordiefalcon he's not English but let's be honest - England's squad very much has a foreign feel to it.

Quite a few players not born in England including the captain....   Neither were the Vunipola bros.

The Vunipola bros might well have been playing for Wales in different circumstances.

Hartley will be useful for the experience alongside Genge and Sinckler but I just think in the long term he needs easing out and we do need to try out other hooker options if George goes on the Lions.

I know the Hartley fan club is significant but this is a good opportunity for the likes of Taylor and LCD.

I don't have a problem with people with foreign connections etc...its a very small world, people move around for work etc. Players like Hartley are routinely highlighted but he's got an English parent and has been here since he was about 15/ 16

Its the like of Solomona and Hughes I have huge problems with. But that's been done to death and for another time.

Hartley doesn't have a huge fan club. It more that the other options bar George simply aren't standing out. To the man most fans on here would have George starting. Its more to do with captaincy. Jones obviously felt that Hartley was the best option for that, as the rest of the squad has limited experience. Most fans tended to agree with that.

Now however most people are saying the time has come for George to take over...and to maybe find a new captain.

The question is .....who?

I didn't say that above but I'd like gatland to pick both tbh. I think george may be with england. I said it before but I don't think we'll learn that much from the summer, more likely players like solomona underhill just get some game time and see how they gel with the squad.

I wish people would stop saying the S word....

I would take George to NZ. Hartley to start in Argentina, but either Taylor or LCD getting loads of game time in the two matches.

Since England will need 3 hookers Hartley, Taylor and LCD might all be on tour.  In fact if Hartley and George are with the Lions or even called up as injury cover then England will need a 4th hooker.

GF

You'd say it could be time for someone like Itoje to be elevated to captain. With so much International experience around him (Marler, Mako, Hartley, Cole, Kruis, Launchbury, Robshaw, Haskell, Billy, Youngs, Ford, Farrell, Joseph and Brown all established and likely to be in the 23) it might be worth putting the captaincy on your long term candidate early so he has time to settle into the role.

What is the rush to make Itoje the captain? Yes he is a very talented player with great potential - but why captain, he does not even captain his club. With Robshaw fit and presumably back at 6 and Kruis back and fit - does Itoje even become an automatic pick in the second row? I think that is at least debateable.

I think he needs to fully establish himself as no 1 in his position, before he worries about becoming captain.

With Hartley, George, Taylor, LCD plus other solid players like Batty, Heywood, etc I don't think we look too bad at hooker. It is a call for Jones if he sees Hartley making it through to the next world cup as a realistic first choice. I have my doubts about that. He has done a decent job of captain bar the Ireland game, but as a player George is better than him and Taylor as an impact sub would also be ahead. I am not writing off Hartley. A summer off, and a start to the season without injury and suspension then he could work himself back into full form.

Oh I haven't said Itoje for captain. I was merely saying...George should be starting 2 so who becomes captain!

That's the question!

Abd Nlp,

You mention Robshaw, Hartley, Haskell, brown etc. I suspect most of them won't make the next Wc

nlplp Hartley isn't captain of his club currently, obvious why he was stripped of the captaincy...

Still think Hartley offers little outside the set piece. These days you need more to your game.

You seriously think Hartley was a good captain in the 6 nations? I thought he was rubbish captain bar the Scotland game where Scotland basically let the occasion get to them - rabbit in the headlights.

Poor vs France, headless chicken vs Italy hence needing Haskell as his interpreter, unceremoniously taken off vs Wales, poor vs Ireland.

Was not a good tournament for Hartley no matter how some people like to think it was.

On a side note I'd like to see Wade going to Argentina, sure he still needs to work on his defence and his positioning but he creates tries out of nothing.

I'd certainly pick him ahead of the likes of May and Yarde who you all know I don't particularly rate.

So who should be Captain?

It can certainly be argued that Hartley should have called the side to pick and drive earlier against Italy but Poite had a different view to refs in super rugby on those set of calls hence when england tried to grab opponents it didn't work. Bar that quite unusual tactic I fail to see a difference in the captaincy aspects of Hartley this 6Ns and the last 12 months.

Someone's going to be captain this summer but the next full time one looks set to be Farrell doesn't it?

Farrell certainly looks a leading candidate.

Will be quite interesting if any of the England players get the chance with the lions.

My gut feel is that Farrell will be captain, fitness permitting, come the AIs.

No 7 & 1/2 look I get it in your eyes some players can do no wrong.  You have some utterly bizarre viewpoints - when someone is clearly poor you believe they are good.

Hartley was clearly a poor captain in the 6 nations, don't need to be a genius to realise that.

I hope it's not Farrell. I know he's your 2nd choice after Hartley.

I'd just like England to pick someone likable again.

I know it seems to be the trend to pick the least likable candidate but do we have to?

Unfortunately there are a lack of options though.

Itoje and Farrell will likely go on the Lions so neither of them will captain on the Argentina tour.

No 7&1/2 wrote:It can certainly be argued that Hartley should have called the side to pick and drive earlier against Italy but Poite had a different view to refs in super rugby on those set of calls hence when england tried to grab opponents it didn't work. Bar that quite unusual tactic I fail to see a difference in the captaincy aspects of Hartley this 6Ns and the last 12 months.

It can't. They started pick and drive after just 10 minutes of the Italian tactic rearing it's head. It wasn't effective until the second half because the performance was mistake ridden in many facets, but that's not the same thing.

I agree his captaincy is good though. I see an edge and determination with England now that I didn't see under Lancaster and Robshaw. I think Hartley is a big part of setting that tone, on and off the field.

To be fair Beshocked, Hartley has just captained a team on a 17 game winning streak. He cant be doing THAT badly.

Howevver I agree, George needs to be starting hooker.

My other question is also...will Ford and Farrell remain at 10 and 12? I think to evolve Farrell needs to move back to 10 and we need another player at 12.

And its too much for Farrell to be kicker, playmaker AND captain.

The pick and goes were a little in isolation in the 1st half cas?

Beshocked happy to consider instances of poor captaincy by Hartley if you have some examples. I wouldn't personally pick Farrell but he looks the choice of Jones captaining when Hartley is off the pitch. Personally I don't care about the likeability of players.

Take Hartley's performances out of it (which were ok to good, no more), what exactly was wrong with his captaincy? There was the debacle against Italy which was a bit of an anomaly, but I thought his did well.

On the counter, were George's performance that great? Even from the bench when it's easier to shine, I thought he just played ok.

cascough really? I thought the Ireland game was just like 2015 under Lancaster.

Seriously - name one game bar the Scotland game when you actually think Hartley was a good captain in this 6 nations. 1 game in 5 is poor in my opinion. It mirrored his 6 nations performances - 1 good performance in 5 games.

I know some people on here think the difference in England under Lancaster to Jones is primarily down to Hartley being made captain but I disagree - it's just being dismissive of the many contributions.

Hartley was a solid captain in 2016 but in 2017 he's been poor. If I was rating leadership out of 10 I'd say 7.5/10 in 2016, 4/10 in 2017.

The Hartley fan club is out in full force it seems! Sgt Pooly England clearly looked rudderless/flat against the likes of France,Ireland and Wales.

In two of those games England improved and won the game on his departure. Hartley was utterly baffled by Italy and England lacked good leadership on the day.

George was generally an improvement on Hartley, he wasn't outstanding but on most occasions he performed better. Certainly his performance vs Wales helped lift England out of a precarious position and he helped England get out of trouble vs France too.

Only vs Ireland did the bench not have it's normal impact.

Are you rating his captaincy or how you feel he has played though? Seems to be the latter.

I think you're getting performances confused with captaincy.

Yeah I think Beshocked is more rating the performances not the captaincy.

The whole teams performance wasn't breath taking in 2017, but that reflects the injuries, and players loss of form.

Ie Haskell was a key part of the Australia win. He then missed lots due to injury and his performances weren't the same level when he returned.

We missed Kruis aswell, and Robhaw.

Last season Jones appeared to favour Billy V over Farrell as the VC who took over when Hartley left. Harder to compare this season with Billy's injury.

If Jones elects to move Farrell to 10 then I accept that captaincy would be too much, but I can see him continuing to start at 12 and only move to 10 if Jones is looking to change things during a game.

As to likeability - pfft. Most important thing I need from the captain is for the players to respect him. Currently that seems to be the case for Hartley, which bearing in mind his respective performance levels vs Jamie George is a real indicator of the esteem in which the squad hold him.

Being likeable is a matter of opinion anyway. Having met Owen Farrell a handful of times, I like the lad. Yes he can be grumpy (all the best people are ), and on the pitch can appear petulant (in part because he has an unfortunate "look" to him, but also because he cares so much it hurts) - but as with Hartley the players in the England squad (and Saracens) seem to respect him.

beshocked wrote:I'd just like England to pick someone likable again.

I know it seems to be the trend to pick the least likable candidate but do we have to?

Farrell seems likable enough to me and is a popular squad player.

He's a winner, has an edge (that very rarely causes problems for his team) and has matured a lot in a last 2-3 seasons.

You claim to have some inside information on him not being a good guy (that you won't reveal) despite most evidence to the contrary.

Not sure why you think 'likability' is the most important asset for a captain (with Eddie in charge, good luck with that anyway!). In any case, Hartley seems to have a decent rapport with the referees.

You're saying the team looked rudderless but these are games we won. I'm not a big Hartley fan as it happens, never have been. But, I can plainly see the leadership he brings to the team, more so than Robshaw ever did.

You can complain all you like about George being the better player. Maybe he is, maybe he isn't....but he certainly isn't the leader Hartley is.

I am rating both. Good performances help allow a player to be a good leader and lead by example.

Poor performances do not instill confidence and means others must pick up the slack.

Look at someone like Louw for Bath - he leads by example. Same with Launchbury vs Saints. Play well and it helps the leadership side.


Farrell is seen as a captaincy candidate because more often than not he plays well. Had a shocker vs Italy and not his best day at the office vs Ireland but he did better than Hartley in terms of leading even though I still don't want him as England captain.

Cyril I agree likability isn't always the most important thing but I personally want a captain to be proud of, not embarrassed by.

Hartley obviously doesn't have good rapport with Poite, doesn't with Barnes either... Now of course they are only 2 refs but high profile.

Being a winner might be all that matters to you. His edge got England into trouble vs Australia with his YC and he's messed up 1 AP title and ERCC title thanks to his pride (sure in the former the TMO and ref were very poor but Farrell should have just calmed down).

You think it's just me? Riskysports said he chatted to Farrell Jr and said he was grumpy.

Londontiger fair enough if you like him. If you want him as captain fair enough.

I'll never support a claim. I respect him as a good rugby player will never respect him as a person.

No matter how well he does, I'll always know what he really is like. There are others who do too.

He's the only player at Saracens I dislike.

Sgt Pooly we only just beat France and Wales and that wasn't down to Hartley.

Well we've settled it's not important who the captain is then. What did Farrell do to you?

Why do you keep asking? Just assume I have a good reason for dislking him.

Because it's of interest. Why do you keep bringing it up as some sort of proof without telling anything. It's either a thing or not.

I once saw Peter Schmeichel refuse to shake a ball boys hand. He's still on the BBC.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Because it's of interest. Why do you keep bringing it up as some sort of proof without telling anything.  It's either a thing or not.

Even though it's hard you have to take my word for it. I have a good reason. I know we don't always get along but I wouldn't say it if I thought otherwise.

Doesn't mean that if you have to feel the same.

No 7&1/2 wrote:The pick and goes were a little in isolation in the 1st half cas?

Beshocked happy to consider instances of poor captaincy by Hartley if you have some examples. I wouldn't personally pick Farrell but he looks the choice of Jones captaining when Hartley is off the pitch. Personally I don't care about the likeability of players.

Watch the game back, they weren't. It's true we struggled for continuity, and it was still scrappy, but that was down to the myriad of other mistakes we made. Purely from a "there's no ruck, let's pick and go" perspective, that decision was made very quickly. Hartley's captaincy was fine in that game.

He obviously thinks george is overrated as some sort of deity.

I'll tell the truth cas I'm not going back to watch that 1st half!