Lions by Country

First topic message reminder :

here's some options at what the split could be assuming gatland picks on form

England - 16
Ireland - 9
Scotland - 7
Wales - 5

or

England - 15
Ireland - 9
Scotland - 7
Wales - 6

or

England - 14
Ireland - 10
Scotland - 7
Wales - 6

my personal guess it will be:-

England - 16
Ireland - 11
Wales - 9
Scotland - 3

discuss!

My selection actually has 5 Scots - AKA wooden-spooners in disguise. Vern pulling the wool over everyone's eyes again...

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:

alive555 wrote:

EST wrote:

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:

bsando wrote:http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/full-37-man-lions-squad-12768335

According to Wales Online..

England 15
Ireland 9
Wales 9
Scotland 2

I mean, come on that is absurd.

If that is the case I would actually prefer if the token Scots did a Toonie and told Gatland to go and make love with himself.

Wales made just two line breaks against France (France made nine).  The line breaks came from Ross Moriarty and Rhys Webb, meaning that the outside backs didn’t a create a single break in nearly 100 minutes. This is not a problem exclusive to the France game. Wales averaged 7.6 line breaks a game for the tournament as a whole – behind France with 11.4, Ireland with 9 and England with 8.4.

How can they finish 5th, be beaten by 2 of the other home nations and still provide more players than Scotland?

I think you're going to have to get used to the idea, Radge.  I'm not saying it's right, but the England game has given Gats the perfect excuse.  You can see the rationale..."It was a big away game under pressure, and the Scottish boys went AWOL" etc etc.  It seems obvious to me that he doesn't rate our players, and the England game has completely overshadowed our excellent wins against Ireland and Wales.  I'd be very surprised if we get more than three on the tour.

the 6 nations team of most weeks had 3-4 scots in it (apart from the eng game)

Now the lions squads post 6n in all the major news organisations have a total of 2-3 scots in it and either 1 (Hogg) or 0 Scots starters. Yet filled with avg 9 welsh players .

Now for me if theres 3 Scots in the squad i would highly recommend the SRU pull out of all future lions tours and let the players decide if they want to participate in this one.

This is going to be disgraceful bias and you can bet with your house its about to happen .

This is why the coach should be utterly neutral. It should not be a coach currently involved with one of the national teams for this very reason. You are right though alive, this will most likely be very Wales heavy and it will reek of bias.

Actually I am not worried about the actual selections, although I hope the media doesn't influence Gatland and his team. Gatland has seemed very positive in his comments regarding Scotland so I know he will select at least 2-3 more than last tour. My main gripe is with the conservative, boring, outdated articles that have been circulating since Sunday and could have been printed 8 years ago when Scotland were a poor side. How can a side with 3 convincing wins against two home nation sides be supplying crumbs to the lions in many's view? Guess they're in for a shock!

SecretFly wrote:

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:

SecretFly wrote:  
but what England did to them is probably sobering when you think of what the ABs can traditionally do.  

Strange comment from a normally intelligent and insightful poster. By that logic based on what Scotland did to Ireland and Wales they shouldn't get picked based on what the All Blacks could do to them.

It's not strange logic at all, Rugger.  What Scotland did to Ireland and Wales was a blasted good job - they scuppered our bloody GS party quickly so that's enough for me.  But England still did what they did to Scotland and didn't do it to Ireland when Ireland corrected a few selection issues (that were discussed long before the last game and that have been discussed by Irish fans long before the 6n itself)  

If you get 10 or 15 players, good luck.  I have no vested interest in you getting less.  But the arguments used here for whatever numbers any of you want for your nations, well to me they seem lopsided at times - so I say so.  Just an opinion.

I agree with everything you've said above - it's perfectly fair to compare Ireland and Scotland's respective performances against England. We were poor, and definitely showed that we have some way to go before we become, consistently, the good team Scotland are capable of being.

I'll just ask two questions: If Ireland had been playing England, and Jared Payne had been forced off with a head knock. Let's say Zebo would have reverted to full back and Conway would have come on to the wing. Then in quick succession Zebo and Conway are both forced off with injuries, forcing Schmidt to commit all his subs to put a makeshift backline. Would Ireland still have won against England with Marmion on the wing and Paddy Jackson at fullback?

Perhaps more importantly: Would you see that match as a fair representation of what all those players (including those who were injured) are capable of doing when combined with other quality players on tour?

IanBru wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:

SecretFly wrote:  
but what England did to them is probably sobering when you think of what the ABs can traditionally do.  

Strange comment from a normally intelligent and insightful poster. By that logic based on what Scotland did to Ireland and Wales they shouldn't get picked based on what the All Blacks could do to them.

It's not strange logic at all, Rugger.  What Scotland did to Ireland and Wales was a blasted good job - they scuppered our bloody GS party quickly so that's enough for me.  But England still did what they did to Scotland and didn't do it to Ireland when Ireland corrected a few selection issues (that were discussed long before the last game and that have been discussed by Irish fans long before the 6n itself)  

If you get 10 or 15 players, good luck.  I have no vested interest in you getting less.  But the arguments used here for whatever numbers any of you want for your nations, well to me they seem lopsided at times - so I say so.  Just an opinion.

I agree with everything you've said above - it's perfectly fair to compare Ireland and Scotland's respective performances against England. We were poor, and definitely showed that we have some way to go before we become, consistently, the good team Scotland are capable of being.

I'll just ask two questions: If Ireland had been playing England, and Jared Payne had been forced off with a head knock. Let's say Zebo would have reverted to full back and Conway would have come on to the wing. Then in quick succession Zebo and Conway are both forced off with injuries, forcing Schmidt to commit all his subs to put a makeshift backline. Would Ireland still have won against England with Marmion on the wing and Paddy Jackson at fullback?

Perhaps more importantly: Would you see that match as a fair representation of what all those players (including those who were injured) are capable of doing when combined with other quality players on tour?

marvelous. I was trying to say all of this but Bru is a purveyor of unrivaled eloquence.

A better idea. Let's say Wales were playing England at Twickenham already down to their 2nd choice scrum-half and full back. What if the full-back went off with a head injury and the 3rd choice fly-half had to cover, the winger then went off with a dislocated shoulder and 3rd choice scrum half had to cover, then the 12 went off and god knows who filled in as cover. Did Wales capitulate or did they rally together and destroy the villainous Earl of Lancaster?

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:

IanBru wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:

SecretFly wrote:  
but what England did to them is probably sobering when you think of what the ABs can traditionally do.  

Strange comment from a normally intelligent and insightful poster. By that logic based on what Scotland did to Ireland and Wales they shouldn't get picked based on what the All Blacks could do to them.

It's not strange logic at all, Rugger.  What Scotland did to Ireland and Wales was a blasted good job - they scuppered our bloody GS party quickly so that's enough for me.  But England still did what they did to Scotland and didn't do it to Ireland when Ireland corrected a few selection issues (that were discussed long before the last game and that have been discussed by Irish fans long before the 6n itself)  

If you get 10 or 15 players, good luck.  I have no vested interest in you getting less.  But the arguments used here for whatever numbers any of you want for your nations, well to me they seem lopsided at times - so I say so.  Just an opinion.

I agree with everything you've said above - it's perfectly fair to compare Ireland and Scotland's respective performances against England. We were poor, and definitely showed that we have some way to go before we become, consistently, the good team Scotland are capable of being.

I'll just ask two questions: If Ireland had been playing England, and Jared Payne had been forced off with a head knock. Let's say Zebo would have reverted to full back and Conway would have come on to the wing. Then in quick succession Zebo and Conway are both forced off with injuries, forcing Schmidt to commit all his subs to put a makeshift backline. Would Ireland still have won against England with Marmion on the wing and Paddy Jackson at fullback?

Perhaps more importantly: Would you see that match as a fair representation of what all those players (including those who were injured) are capable of doing when combined with other quality players on tour?

marvelous. I was trying to say all of this but Bru is a purveyor of unrivaled eloquence.

Its a fair point.

Had those Scotland players and Daly stayed on they might have shipped even more points.

mikey_dragon wrote:A better idea. Let's say Wales were playing England at Twickenham already down to their 2nd choice scrum-half and full back. What if the full-back went off with a head injury and the 3rd choice fly-half had to cover, the winger then went off with a dislocated shoulder and 3rd choice scrum half had to cover, then the 12 went off and god knows who filled in as cover. Did Wales capitulate or did they rally together and destroy the villainous Earl of Lancaster?

That was quite some time ago, and 2 very different teams. England played Brad Barrit and Sam burges in the centres

Furthermore the Welsh injuries occured in the final quarter Amos and L Williams coming off in the 67th minute and S Williams coming off in the 62nd minute.

Contrast that to the lethal and clinical England back line that Scotland came up against and the fact that Hogg went off at 18 minutes, Bennett at 22 minutes and Seymour at 45 minutes.

That is taking nothing away from Wales in their somehow relevant RWC performance from 2 years ago, but it was a different England side then and we both know that. Nice try though

IanBru wrote:

I'll just ask two questions: If Ireland had been playing England, and Jared Payne had been forced off with a head knock. Let's say Zebo would have reverted to full back and Conway would have come on to the wing. Then in quick succession Zebo and Conway are both forced off with injuries, forcing Schmidt to commit all his subs to put a makeshift backline. Would Ireland still have won against England with Marmion on the wing and Paddy Jackson at fullback?

Well we've had games like that in the past so we know what it feels like to fiddle the deck of cards! (France WC seems to come to mind)  

Tough exercise sure enough... but Marmion has played on the wing before for us (against the ABs of all sides!) and hmmmmm?....well, he did a pretty ok job so................... and we'd still have our CJs and our POMs and our Sextons and our Hendersons and our Rorys...  Yeah, I'd still give us a whack at England in the kind of mood we were in in Dublin  But sure it's all speculation.

No, I realise the point you're making but I still say it's welcome to Scotland, you've finally joined the cauldron where Lions players get selected by a raucous bunch of pretty biased home player defenders.  Enjoy it  But watch out for the Welsh.  They're sneaky.  They never want all their players chosen but always feel Gatland simply needs to pick most of them so that he doesn't lose the Wales dressing room when he returns back to the day job  So it's all pragmatic 'best player for the job' stuff in this 4 yearly fan selection circus.

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:A better idea. Let's say Wales were playing England at Twickenham already down to their 2nd choice scrum-half and full back. What if the full-back went off with a head injury and the 3rd choice fly-half had to cover, the winger then went off with a dislocated shoulder and 3rd choice scrum half had to cover, then the 12 went off and god knows who filled in as cover. Did Wales capitulate or did they rally together and destroy the villainous Earl of Lancaster?

That was quite some time ago, and 2 very different teams. England played Brad Barrit and Sam burges in the centres

Furthermore the Welsh injuries occured in the final quarter Amos and L Williams coming off in the 67th minute and S Williams coming off in the 62nd minute.

Contrast that to the lethal and clinical England back line that Scotland came up against and the fact that Hogg went off at 18 minutes, Bennett at 22 minutes and Seymour at 45 minutes.

That is taking nothing away from Wales in their somehow relevant RWC performance from 2 years ago, but it was a different England side then and we both know that. Nice try though

You Scots have been telling us that it isn't just recent form that counts, and I happen to agree with you. It was a good effort in getting rid of that Earl of Lancaster yeah. It lead to bringing in Lord Edward Jones III and the subsequent slaughter of Scotland at Twickenham .

Its going to be some crack on here when Gatland drops Hogg for 1/2penny.

rodders wrote:

George Carlin wrote:I remember seeing interviews with JD2 when he talked about disliking the Top 14 as it is much slower and more forward orientated than the Pro 12. I honestly believe Halfpenny has suffered from playing in that league - I presume also that he is being played to death as the likes of Sexton was.

The top 14 didn't harm Abendanon or Armitage. Maybe Halfpenny has just been exposed as the one trick pony he is.

Sexton's time at Racing actually started off ok before injuries and concussions began to take its toll.

Stephen Jones is correct in one instance with his assessment but I think the underlying issue is far more serious. The reason the targeting of Sexton is drawing so much attention is because of the length of time it is taking him to recover from each hit he takes.

He's always been regularly involved in big collisions but the issue now is almost each one is resulting in treatment and injury, whereas in the past he was straight back to his feet. I don't believe he is milking penalties, as Jones has suggested, rather that his durability has diminished markedly over the past 3 seasons due to the impact he has suffered over his career. I hope for his own sake he gets the summer off.

Except that they disappeared into obscurity and Steffon, who was to be England's Next Big Thing in the back row never fulfilled his potential.

Sin é wrote:Its going to be some crack on here when Gatland drops Hogg for 1/2penny.

Fully deserved - As Hogg is not the front line kicker

Why would you want anyone else than a kicker?

No need to have someone who can score tries, break lines, catch a high ball and even pass - totally wasted in this day an age when the only way we want our teams to score are through the boot

IanBru wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:

SecretFly wrote:  
but what England did to them is probably sobering when you think of what the ABs can traditionally do.  

Strange comment from a normally intelligent and insightful poster. By that logic based on what Scotland did to Ireland and Wales they shouldn't get picked based on what the All Blacks could do to them.

It's not strange logic at all, Rugger.  What Scotland did to Ireland and Wales was a blasted good job - they scuppered our bloody GS party quickly so that's enough for me.  But England still did what they did to Scotland and didn't do it to Ireland when Ireland corrected a few selection issues (that were discussed long before the last game and that have been discussed by Irish fans long before the 6n itself)  

If you get 10 or 15 players, good luck.  I have no vested interest in you getting less.  But the arguments used here for whatever numbers any of you want for your nations, well to me they seem lopsided at times - so I say so.  Just an opinion.

I agree with everything you've said above - it's perfectly fair to compare Ireland and Scotland's respective performances against England. We were poor, and definitely showed that we have some way to go before we become, consistently, the good team Scotland are capable of being.

I'll just ask two questions: If Ireland had been playing England, and Jared Payne had been forced off with a head knock. Let's say Zebo would have reverted to full back and Conway would have come on to the wing. Then in quick succession Zebo and Conway are both forced off with injuries, forcing Schmidt to commit all his subs to put a makeshift backline. Would Ireland still have won against England with Marmion on the wing and Paddy Jackson at fullback?

Perhaps more importantly: Would you see that match as a fair representation of what all those players (including those who were injured) are capable of doing when combined with other quality players on tour?

Ireland v Australia in the autumn (Ireland won 27-24)
11 mins in: Kearney off Zebo on
30 mins in: Trimble off, Carbery on (2nd cap)
40 mins in: Payne off, Marmion on.

Marmion ended up on the wing for 40 mins. and Ireland still won.

Ireland losing to Scotland was down to bad selection - Ireland needed a more experienced engine room and should have started Donnacha Ryan (and possibly Peter O'Mahoney for his aggressiveness & lineout prowess).

Sin é wrote:

IanBru wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:

SecretFly wrote:  
but what England did to them is probably sobering when you think of what the ABs can traditionally do.  

Strange comment from a normally intelligent and insightful poster. By that logic based on what Scotland did to Ireland and Wales they shouldn't get picked based on what the All Blacks could do to them.

It's not strange logic at all, Rugger.  What Scotland did to Ireland and Wales was a blasted good job - they scuppered our bloody GS party quickly so that's enough for me.  But England still did what they did to Scotland and didn't do it to Ireland when Ireland corrected a few selection issues (that were discussed long before the last game and that have been discussed by Irish fans long before the 6n itself)  

If you get 10 or 15 players, good luck.  I have no vested interest in you getting less.  But the arguments used here for whatever numbers any of you want for your nations, well to me they seem lopsided at times - so I say so.  Just an opinion.

I agree with everything you've said above - it's perfectly fair to compare Ireland and Scotland's respective performances against England. We were poor, and definitely showed that we have some way to go before we become, consistently, the good team Scotland are capable of being.

I'll just ask two questions: If Ireland had been playing England, and Jared Payne had been forced off with a head knock. Let's say Zebo would have reverted to full back and Conway would have come on to the wing. Then in quick succession Zebo and Conway are both forced off with injuries, forcing Schmidt to commit all his subs to put a makeshift backline. Would Ireland still have won against England with Marmion on the wing and Paddy Jackson at fullback?

Perhaps more importantly: Would you see that match as a fair representation of what all those players (including those who were injured) are capable of doing when combined with other quality players on tour?

Ireland v Australia in the autumn (Ireland won 27-24)
11 mins in: Kearney off Zebo on
30 mins in: Trimble off, Carbery on (2nd cap)
40 mins in: Payne off, Marmion on.

Marmion ended up on the wing for 40 mins. and Ireland still won.

Ireland losing to Scotland was down to bad selection - Ireland needed a more experienced engine room and should have started Donnacha Ryan (and possibly Peter O'Mahoney for his aggressiveness & lineout prowess).

OOoooooooooorrrrr maybe Scotland actually played well and deserved to win on merit??????

R!skysports wrote:

Sin é wrote:

IanBru wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:

SecretFly wrote:  
but what England did to them is probably sobering when you think of what the ABs can traditionally do.  

Strange comment from a normally intelligent and insightful poster. By that logic based on what Scotland did to Ireland and Wales they shouldn't get picked based on what the All Blacks could do to them.

It's not strange logic at all, Rugger.  What Scotland did to Ireland and Wales was a blasted good job - they scuppered our bloody GS party quickly so that's enough for me.  But England still did what they did to Scotland and didn't do it to Ireland when Ireland corrected a few selection issues (that were discussed long before the last game and that have been discussed by Irish fans long before the 6n itself)  

If you get 10 or 15 players, good luck.  I have no vested interest in you getting less.  But the arguments used here for whatever numbers any of you want for your nations, well to me they seem lopsided at times - so I say so.  Just an opinion.

I agree with everything you've said above - it's perfectly fair to compare Ireland and Scotland's respective performances against England. We were poor, and definitely showed that we have some way to go before we become, consistently, the good team Scotland are capable of being.

I'll just ask two questions: If Ireland had been playing England, and Jared Payne had been forced off with a head knock. Let's say Zebo would have reverted to full back and Conway would have come on to the wing. Then in quick succession Zebo and Conway are both forced off with injuries, forcing Schmidt to commit all his subs to put a makeshift backline. Would Ireland still have won against England with Marmion on the wing and Paddy Jackson at fullback?

Perhaps more importantly: Would you see that match as a fair representation of what all those players (including those who were injured) are capable of doing when combined with other quality players on tour?

Ireland v Australia in the autumn (Ireland won 27-24)
11 mins in: Kearney off Zebo on
30 mins in: Trimble off, Carbery on (2nd cap)
40 mins in: Payne off, Marmion on.

Marmion ended up on the wing for 40 mins. and Ireland still won.

Ireland losing to Scotland was down to bad selection - Ireland needed a more experienced engine room and should have started Donnacha Ryan (and possibly Peter O'Mahoney for his aggressiveness & lineout prowess).

OOoooooooooorrrrr maybe Scotland actually played well and deserved to win on merit??????

BLASPHEMY!!!

Also, Huw Jones is out for 5 months after tearing his hammy.

so that's that for him then.

Well then that's back to 4 Scots for the Lions. I feel for Huw though, he had a genuine chance at touring as he's Welsh.

Warbs is nailed on as Captain again.

I had Huw Jones down as a tourist too. Damn.

When does he actually name the squad?

Gwlad wrote:

rodders wrote:

George Carlin wrote:I remember seeing interviews with JD2 when he talked about disliking the Top 14 as it is much slower and more forward orientated than the Pro 12. I honestly believe Halfpenny has suffered from playing in that league - I presume also that he is being played to death as the likes of Sexton was.

The top 14 didn't harm Abendanon or Armitage. Maybe Halfpenny has just been exposed as the one trick pony he is.

Sexton's time at Racing actually started off ok before injuries and concussions began to take its toll.

Stephen Jones is correct in one instance with his assessment but I think the underlying issue is far more serious. The reason the targeting of Sexton is drawing so much attention is because of the length of time it is taking him to recover from each hit he takes.

He's always been regularly involved in big collisions but the issue now is almost each one is resulting in treatment and injury, whereas in the past he was straight back to his feet. I don't believe he is milking penalties, as Jones has suggested, rather that his durability has diminished markedly over the past 3 seasons due to the impact he has suffered over his career. I hope for his own sake he gets the summer off.

Except that they disappeared into obscurity and Steffon, who was to be England's Next Big Thing in the back row never fulfilled his potential.

Several European player of the years and Heineken cups would beg to differ....his England career failed due to not being picked by the then England coaches (they don't seem to like fetchers at 7)...nothing to do with ability.

GeordieFalcon wrote:When does he actually name the squad?

When Standard Life and the RFU tell him who to pick.

rodders wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:When does he actually name the squad?

When Standard Life and the RFU tell him who to pick.

April 19 is when he's told

TightHEAD wrote:Warbs is nailed on as Captain again.

Can you name a better candidate, i doubt it.

Previous winning Lions skipper and just and an extraordinary 6 Nations. Consistent, respected and arguably the best 6 or 7 available with honorable mentions for Tipuric and Stander.

Despite Gatland saying the captain is not guaranteed a test spot I do think you want your captain to be as near a certainty as possible. That means Warbs over AWJ for me. Warbs is getting back to his best form and should be captain. Best is also a good candidate and a genuine leader, but having had 2 away 6Ns losses he will need to prove himself in the early tour games. I admire AWJ but I think 2nd row is genuinely competitive and could also come down to tour form.

hugehandoff wrote:Despite Gatland saying the captain is not guaranteed a test spot I do think you want your captain to be as near a certainty as possible. That means Warbs over AWJ for me. Warbs is getting back to his best form and should be captain. Best is also a good candidate and a genuine leader, but having had 2 away 6Ns losses he will need to prove himself in the early tour games. I admire AWJ but I think 2nd row is genuinely competitive and could also come down to tour form.

I agree with this assessment entirely; had Warburton presided over this 6 Nations for Wales it would be hard to award him the role, as hard as it is now to give it to AWJ combined with the fact that he is arguably not a first choice 2nd row.

Gwlad wrote:

TightHEAD wrote:Warbs is nailed on as Captain again.

Can you name a better candidate, i doubt it.

Previous winning Lions skipper and just and an extraordinary 6 Nations. Consistent, respected and arguably the best 6 or 7 available with honorable mentions for Tipuric and Stander.

He's better without the captaincy burden though. He starts my test XV with Stander and POM but I feel he's better without the pressure of being captain

R!skysports wrote:

Sin é wrote:Its going to be some crack on here when Gatland drops Hogg for 1/2penny.

Fully deserved - As Hogg is not the front line kicker

Why would you want anyone else than a kicker?

No need to have someone who can score tries, break lines, catch a high ball and even pass - totally wasted in this day an age when the only way we want our teams to score are through the boot

You know, in my darker moments I'm quite convinced that Gatland sees the, best possible, Lions Test back three being made up of: North-Halfpenny-Williams.
Also, I've just had to spend far too long explaining to Young Pipetto why Finn Russell has slightly less likelihood than Nigella Lawson of being a Lion on this tour.

jimbopip wrote:

R!skysports wrote:

Sin é wrote:Its going to be some crack on here when Gatland drops Hogg for 1/2penny.

Fully deserved - As Hogg is not the front line kicker

Why would you want anyone else than a kicker?

No need to have someone who can score tries, break lines, catch a high ball and even pass - totally wasted in this day an age when the only way we want our teams to score are through the boot

You know, in my darker moments I'm quite convinced that Gatland sees the, best possible, Lions Test back three being made up of: North-Halfpenny-Williams.
Also, I've just had to spend far too long explaining to Young Pipetto why Finn Russell has slightly less likelihood than Nigella Lawson of being a Lion on this tour.

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:

Gwlad wrote:

TightHEAD wrote:Warbs is nailed on as Captain again.

Can you name a better candidate, i doubt it.

Previous winning Lions skipper and just and an extraordinary 6 Nations. Consistent, respected and arguably the best 6 or 7 available with honorable mentions for Tipuric and Stander.

He's better without the captaincy burden though. He starts my test XV with Stander and POM but I feel he's better without the pressure of being captain

Agreed he is but will he step up when that fine Kiwi wool is being pulled over the refs eyes?

My test 23

McGrath
Owens
Furlong
Launchbury
Itoje
Stander
Warburton C
Billy
Webb
Sexton
Jaws
Farrell
Joseph
Watson
L Williams

Mako, Best, Cole, Gray, Faletau, Murray, JD2, Hogg.

I have to say though

Itoje did not impress me this 6 nations


There I said t

R!skysports wrote:I have to say though

Itoje did not impress me this 6 nations


There I said t

He fell off for sure and seemed anonymous towards the end but then he wasn't done any favors by being played at 6 when he is a lock.

I still think he'll tour but no different to any other star - and England have a bad habit of making them and then watching them fizzle out - i think his 2nd season syndrome has already started.

I'd like to see him tour and see what he makes of the club games as i think he's capable of being a special player just not in the environment this 6 Nations has provided.

R!skysports wrote:I have to say though

Itoje did not impress me this 6 nations


There I said t

I would log off and hide before beshocked comes back.

He was playing second row really. They just had the numbers the other way round.

Itoje wasn't at his best but he still made some decisive contributions. I'd be amazed if he didn't go. This time four years ago launchbury was the big loser when we got pummelled by Wales, but there was no comparable capitulation this time.

Wales back row against Italy first 60 min poor i jackle was all they had to show against England they was good against Scotland well the Scotland back row blew them away against Ireland they was good against France poor bar Tips who was good 18 tackles get ready for it Warby 12 tackles and ross even less and the amount of tackles Ross M and Warby missed was really bad My point is when one on here or where ever starts the ball rolling how outstanding the Welsh back row was everyone jumps on the band wagon agreeing and it was not so in all games For Gods sake Wales came 5th how could any of them played every game as outstanding and no doubt i will now get slagged off for stating the fact but it had to be said let the insults flow and accusations of being a wind up merchant begin.

Pretty pointless to make a guess now but below is my punt at what Gatland might go for.

- If Nel makes it back before the end of the season I think he'll travel. Gatland and Wig wont leave that scrummaging power at home if he's available.

- I reckon Warburton will feature at 6 and 7 during the tour.

- I think Farrell will travel as one of the 4 centres to make room for a third full back.

- I wouldn't take Rob Evans, Heaslip, JDv2 or Halfpenny personally but think that Gatland will. Same with North I reckon he's already on the plane regardless of form he shows in the season run in.

- Wingers are hard to call but I think that Seymour will sneak in ahead of Nowell. Wouldn't be upset by that either, I think Seymour is an excellent winger.

1.McGrath, Vunipola, Evans
2.Best, George, Hartley
3.Cole, Furlong, Nel
4.Itoje, Henderson
5.J Gray, Wyn Jones, Kruis
6.Stander, Warburton
7.Tipuric, O'Brien
8.Vunipola, Faletau, Heaslip

9.Murray, Webb, Youngs
10.Sexton, Biggar

11.North, Seymour
12.Farrell, Henshaw
13.Joseph, Davies
14.Watson, Daly
15.Hogg, Kearney, Halfpenny

12 English
11 Irish
10 Welsh
4 Scots

king_carlos wrote:Pretty pointless to make a guess now but below is my punt at what Gatland might go for.

- If Nel makes it back before the end of the season I think he'll travel. Gatland and Wig wont leave that scrummaging power at home if he's available.

- I reckon Warburton will feature at 6 and 7 during the tour.

- I think Farrell will travel as one of the 4 centres to make room for a third full back.

- I wouldn't take Rob Evans, Heaslip, JDv2 or Halfpenny personally but think that Gatland will. Same with North I reckon he's already on the plane regardless of form he shows in the season run in.

- Wingers are hard to call but I think that Seymour will sneak in ahead of Nowell. Wouldn't be upset by that either, I think Seymour is an excellent winger.

1.McGrath, Vunipola, Evans
2.Best, George, Hartley
3.Cole, Furlong, Nel
4.Itoje, Henderson
5.J Gray, Wyn Jones, Kruis
6.Stander, Warburton
7.Tipuric, O'Brien
8.Vunipola, Faletau, Heaslip

9.Murray, Webb, Youngs
10.Sexton, Biggar

11.North, Seymour
12.Farrell, Henshaw
13.Joseph, Davies
14.Watson, Daly
15.Hogg, Kearney, Halfpenny

12 English
11 Irish
10 Welsh
4 Scots

Don't think Kearney will go nor do i think you need him with Liam on the squad who you have omitted strangely since he is a cert to go and acts as FB cover behind Hogg and Half.
No Launchbury too?
Agree on Nel if fit he goes for his power and what he offers elsewhere, Evans would be nice but doubtful if he will go before Marler.
Doubt Heaslip will go either though thats a tough call.
I don't think Biggar will tour now. Beginning to think he will gamble on Ford with Farrell; Biggar may be the reason Wales have been so poor in attack this term. Gats has never liked Biggar.

Gats is his on man, he might take Gethin and Doc. Even Lydiate if fit. Kruis likely if he shows up at all now.

irnbrew wrote:Wales back row against Italy first 60 min poor i jackle was all they had to show  against England they was good against Scotland well the Scotland back row blew them away against Ireland they was good against France poor bar Tips  who was good 18 tackles get ready for it Warby 12 tackles and ross even less and the amount of tackles Ross M and Warby missed was really bad My point is when one on here or where ever starts the ball rolling how outstanding the Welsh back row was everyone jumps on the band wagon agreeing and it was not so in all games For Gods sake Wales came 5th how could any of them played every game as outstanding and no doubt i will now get slagged off for stating the fact but it had to be said let the insults flow and accusations of being a wind up merchant begin.

I have no idea what you're saying....

GeordieFalcon wrote:

Gwlad wrote:

rodders wrote:

George Carlin wrote:I remember seeing interviews with JD2 when he talked about disliking the Top 14 as it is much slower and more forward orientated than the Pro 12. I honestly believe Halfpenny has suffered from playing in that league - I presume also that he is being played to death as the likes of Sexton was.

The top 14 didn't harm Abendanon or Armitage. Maybe Halfpenny has just been exposed as the one trick pony he is.

Sexton's time at Racing actually started off ok before injuries and concussions began to take its toll.

Stephen Jones is correct in one instance with his assessment but I think the underlying issue is far more serious. The reason the targeting of Sexton is drawing so much attention is because of the length of time it is taking him to recover from each hit he takes.

He's always been regularly involved in big collisions but the issue now is almost each one is resulting in treatment and injury, whereas in the past he was straight back to his feet. I don't believe he is milking penalties, as Jones has suggested, rather that his durability has diminished markedly over the past 3 seasons due to the impact he has suffered over his career. I hope for his own sake he gets the summer off.

Except that they disappeared into obscurity and Steffon, who was to be England's Next Big Thing in the back row never fulfilled his potential.

Several European player of the years and Heineken cups would beg to differ....his England career failed due to not being picked by the then England coaches (they don't seem to like fetchers at 7)...nothing to do with ability.

I think the failed drugs test,assault convinction, and not being available for all games and training camps didnt help his case much either.

Let's talk flankers.

Most reporters plopping out their Lions 15 now seem to have a concerted boner for Sam Warbuton and so, whilst not having watched 2 of the Wales games, I will take it at face value that he is now playing well and the fact he is a fomer Wales captain, Lions tourist and Gatland favourite means that is highly likely to travel.

What is not so straighforward and not explained at all are the people who just automatically assume that Tipuric will travel too and drop him straight into a Lions squad as well. It is happening a lot in major newspapers so I just wondered what Wales fans made of this.

If comparing types, did he really play better than Hamish Watson? Is he clearly better than Sean O'Brien, James Haskell or Josh Van Der Flier? Is he more versatile than John Barclay, another very good openside in his own right?

This is not a WUM - I am just interested to know what fans think, especially Welsh fans.

He's playing better than Sam Warburton IMO.

George Carlin wrote:Let's talk flankers.

Most reporters plopping out their Lions 15 now seem to have a concerted boner for Sam Warbuton and so, whilst not having watched 2 of the Wales games, I will take it at face value that he is now playing well and the fact he is a fomer Wales captain, Lions tourist and Gatland favourite means that is highly likely to travel.

What is not so straighforward and not explained at all are the people who just automatically assume that Tipuric will travel too and drop him straight into a Lions squad as well. It is happening a lot in major newspapers so I just wondered what Wales fans made of this.

If comparing types, did he really play better than Hamish Watson? Is he clearly better than Sean O'Brien, James Haskell or Josh Van Der Flier? Is he more versatile than John Barclay, another very good openside in his own right?

This is not a WUM - I am just interested to know what fans think, especially Welsh fans.

He had a decent 6 nations, George. But he's had an extremely good season so far as well (from a club point of view). I forget the stats, but up to the 6 nations he hadn't missed a tackle since the summer - so league, AIs, Europe - 6 months worth. I think it was 160 tackles, none missed. Something like that. It was like those Johnny Gray stats that everyone was fawning over, but better! And that was why he took the 7 shirt from Warbs for the whole tournament. He did have a quiet few games in the 6N, no doubt. But against Ireland and England (I think) he was very good. When he was 'quiet' he wasn't bad. He wasn't making howlers (like Cuthbert, for example). Just wasn't as noticeable as usual. I've actually been one of his biggest critics over the years as I felt he wasn't physical enough for international level, but I'm coming round to him now.

Would the Lions really go with only 6 props?  The game has moved on since 12 years ago and it is now a 23 man game with a minimum of 4 props (or 4 players who can play prop).

Thus with no injuries, the top pair start in the week-end/test match with the second pair as substitutes.  In the middle week match maybe the second pair start and the 3rd pair come on later.  This is all fine but one injury in a pretty physical position and potentially the same two players now play both week-end and mid-week matches.  New Zealand is a long, long way from Europe with a tremendous time zone difference.  So if the reserves are not in situ there could be major problems.

There is a case for taking 8 props though I think the 4th pair would not see too much match day action.

Likewise 4 hookers and maybe 4 four scrum-halves.

This may be Woodward thinking but there is a question mark over only having 6 props?

cb wrote:This may be Woodward thinking but there is a question mark over only having 6 props?

You're probably right. And midweek games against the Chiefs/Canes is probably a better standard than the likes of Italy, Wales and Scotland. Tough tour.

George Carlin wrote:Let's talk flankers.

Most reporters plopping out their Lions 15 now seem to have a concerted boner for Sam Warbuton and so, whilst not having watched 2 of the Wales games, I will take it at face value that he is now playing well and the fact he is a fomer Wales captain, Lions tourist and Gatland favourite means that is highly likely to travel.

What is not so straighforward and not explained at all are the people who just automatically assume that Tipuric will travel too and drop him straight into a Lions squad as well. It is happening a lot in major newspapers so I just wondered what Wales fans made of this.

If comparing types, did he really play better than Hamish Watson? Is he clearly better than Sean O'Brien, James Haskell or Josh Van Der Flier? Is he more versatile than John Barclay, another very good openside in his own right?

This is not a WUM - I am just interested to know what fans think, especially Welsh fans.

George I'm obviously biased being a long standing Osprey ST holder, let me give you just 2 instances from last Saturdays game to illustrate how highly I think of Justin. Warburton when he ripped that ball and kicked it over the dead ball line, in a game for the Ospreys last season there was a ruck on our line and the ball was passed to Biggar who passed it further infield to Justin who was still near the dead ball line but to the left of the post, he put the ball into touch between the 10 metre and halfway line on the right hand side of the pitch, also did you see the try he scored against the Falcons in the RCC2 cup this season when he jumped up and took the ball from a kick off charged between 2 players and then chipped the final defender and caught the ball and ran about 20 yards to touch down, I know there was a large number of Falcons reserves in that match, but the execution was exceptional, I said 2 things about last Saturdays match on 2 occasions he tackled Picamoles and stopped him in his tracks. I didn't see that happen to Picamoles in any other game this 6N, he was also utilised in the lineout on many occasions. Let me finally say if all you want from an open side is a jackaler (sp) pick Watson and Warburton before him or a rampaging open side pick O'Brien before for all round skills, ripping in the tackle, link play, passing, kicking and all round skills IMO he is far superior IMO than any of the others.

wayne wrote:

George Carlin wrote:Let's talk flankers.

Most reporters plopping out their Lions 15 now seem to have a concerted boner for Sam Warbuton and so, whilst not having watched 2 of the Wales games, I will take it at face value that he is now playing well and the fact he is a fomer Wales captain, Lions tourist and Gatland favourite means that is highly likely to travel.

What is not so straighforward and not explained at all are the people who just automatically assume that Tipuric will travel too and drop him straight into a Lions squad as well. It is happening a lot in major newspapers so I just wondered what Wales fans made of this.

If comparing types, did he really play better than Hamish Watson? Is he clearly better than Sean O'Brien, James Haskell or Josh Van Der Flier? Is he more versatile than John Barclay, another very good openside in his own right?

This is not a WUM - I am just interested to know what fans think, especially Welsh fans.

George I'm obviously biased being a long standing Osprey ST holder, let me give you just 2 instances from last Saturdays game to illustrate how highly I think of Justin. Warburton when he ripped that ball and kicked it over the dead ball line, in a game for the Ospreys last season there was a ruck on our line and the ball was passed to Biggar who passed it further infield to Justin who was still near the dead ball line but to the left of the post, he put the ball into touch between the 10 metre and halfway line on the right hand side of the pitch, also did you see the try he scored against the Falcons in the RCC2 cup this season when he jumped up and took the ball from a kick off charged between 2 players and then chipped the final defender and caught the ball and ran about 20 yards to touch down, I know there was a large number of Falcons reserves in that match, but the execution was exceptional, I said 2 things about last Saturdays match on 2 occasions he tackled Picamoles and stopped him in his tracks. I didn't see that happen to Picamoles in any other game this 6N, he was also utilised in the lineout on many occasions. Let me finally say if all you want from an open side is a jackaler (sp) pick Watson and Warburton before him or a rampaging open side pick O'Brien before for all round skills, ripping in the tackle, link play, passing, kicking and all round skills IMO he is far superior IMO than any of the others.    

I think that's fair Wayne. My abiding memory from this tournament was Tipuric's 30 metre track back, cover tackle and then turnover on Huw Jones when he had just stepped George North. I think that he's quality and wouldn't let anyone down is selected. It just comes down to whether Gatland prioritises specialists over utility men. Hard to tell. Picking Hogg as cover for 10 last time without actually telling the player makes me think that anything is possible.

cb wrote:Would the Lions really go with only 6 props?  The game has moved on since 12 years ago and it is now a 23 man game with a minimum of 4 props (or 4 players who can play prop).

Thus with no injuries, the top pair start in the week-end/test match with the second pair as substitutes.  In the middle week match maybe the second pair start and the 3rd pair come on later.  This is all fine but one injury in a pretty physical position and potentially the same two players now play both week-end and mid-week matches.  New Zealand is a long, long way from Europe with a tremendous time zone difference.  So if the reserves are not in situ there could be major problems.

There is a case for taking 8 props though I think the 4th pair would not see too much match day action.

Likewise 4 hookers and maybe 4 four scrum-halves.

This may be Woodward thinking but there is a question mark over only having 6 props?

Bearing in mind its only a 36 man squad that would leave 29 spots to cover all 14 other positions ...just 2 of each. Add in a 4th hooker and 4th scrum half and you have no cover in some positions.

So no theres not a very strong case, unless they return to a much bigger travelling circus and all the issues that bought with it. Last time the took 6, called up 3 replacements during the tour.


Initial squad was :
3 hookers
6 props
5 locks
5 flankers
2 eights
3 scrum halves
2 fly halves
4 centres
5 wings
3 fullbacks

I cant see it being much different this time around

Gooseberry wrote:Bearing in mind its only a 36 man squad that would leave 29 spots to cover all 14 other positions ...

I don't think there's a limit? Squad sizes have varied in the past.

Hi GB,

Is the 36 man squad set in stone? (The list above is 38 - 21/17 split).  I understand the issues of too large a squad but logistically New Zealand is difficult.  From the UK, South Africa is less than 12 hours away with very little of a time difference.  I am assuming NZ is more like 48 hours with a circa 12 hours time difference.  Difficult then to send reinforcements, so unless there are travelling reverses who lie on the beach?

Not an easy question to answer as to what the right size is, mainly because injuries cannot be predicted.