This week's Lion's subject. The smart money on the Captaincy.

First topic message reminder :

Betting has been suspended on Sam Warburton being selected as the 2017 Lions skipper. Apparently this may be based on insider knowledge though heaven forbid we dont want to start a new conspiracy theory, it seems likely that big Sam is our Captain again.  

Though the haters will not even have him touring (Robshaw is after all back to fitness etc) after a superb 6 Nations the back row has self selected the favorites. Most of us want Billy and i imagine anyone who has a clue about Gatland knows Sam will figure. His upturn in form should continue and if he remains injury free the job is his. In addition to his past glories at 7, Super Sam has now established himself as probably the best all round 6 available with Stander and POM knocking loudly, who also cuts a fine figure at 7 and it seems Sam will almost certainly start the Tests in one shirt or the other and he has therefore put himself into an interesting group of those players inked in to starting Test berths (Farrell, Billy, ?)

Gats loves a player who can cover 2 spots, and with his versatility and Captaincy credentials both in Wales and as a past winning Lion, he seems now to be heir apparent and a shoo in for the Captaincy.   My only reservation is that having been relieved of the Wales Captaincy he has thrived, but the selection of a strong leadership group, the Lions siege mentality and its defined short period should enable him to get his head right for the duration.

Much has been said about AWJ as a potential Lions skipper, there being few other deserving candidates. Hartley anyone? Or Best?  Not likely. But his taciturn, somewhat antagonistic nature in front of the camera won't go down well in NZ. I do not believe he has thrived as Wales Captain under a disastrous Head Coach and since i accept he is by no means guaranteed a starting position and is injured, I think it is clear that he will tour if fit but has not done enough to become skipper, though will stand in admirably as he has before.

Sam it is then.  

Gwalad

You cannot take players on a Lions tour based on what they did 4 years ago. 

The Lions are playing New Zealand not Australia, just to remind you Wales finished 5th yes 5th in this years 6ns. That is 1 place above Italy.

You say you think the Captains as to be a forward. That could be Joe Launchbery, or  possibly POM.

Just how many Welsh players do gyou think will be on the Lions tour.

And just because they are WELSH, DOES NOT GIVE THEM AN AUTOMATIC INCLUSION.

Now does it?

majesticimperialman wrote:Gwalad

You cannot take players on a Lions tour based on what they did 4 years ago. 

The Lions are playing New Zealand not Australia, just to remind you Wales finished 5th yes 5th in this years 6ns. That is 1 place above Italy.

You say you think the Captains as to be a forward. That could be Joe Launchbery, or  possibly POM.

Just how many Welsh players do gyou think will be on the Lions tour.

And just because they are WELSH, DOES NOT GIVE THEM AN AUTOMATIC INCLUSION.

Now does it?

No I said i think the Captain HAS to be a forward

Gwlad wrote:

majesticimperialman wrote:Gwalad

You cannot take players on a Lions tour based on what they did 4 years ago. 

The Lions are playing New Zealand not Australia, just to remind you Wales finished 5th yes 5th in this years 6ns. That is 1 place above Italy.

You say you think the Captains as to be a forward. That could be Joe Launchbery, or  possibly POM.

Just how many Welsh players do gyou think will be on the Lions tour.

And just because they are WELSH, DOES NOT GIVE THEM AN AUTOMATIC INCLUSION.

Now does it?

No I said i think the Captain HAS to be a forward

In '05 England finished 4th and still made up by far the bulk of the squad. Even though Wales finished 5th this year they were much more competitive than that England side in '05. In this years six nations 5th isnt as bad as it sounds.

GunsGermsV2 wrote:

Gwlad wrote:

majesticimperialman wrote:Gwalad

You cannot take players on a Lions tour based on what they did 4 years ago. 

The Lions are playing New Zealand not Australia, just to remind you Wales finished 5th yes 5th in this years 6ns. That is 1 place above Italy.

You say you think the Captains as to be a forward. That could be Joe Launchbery, or  possibly POM.

Just how many Welsh players do gyou think will be on the Lions tour.

And just because they are WELSH, DOES NOT GIVE THEM AN AUTOMATIC INCLUSION.

Now does it?

No I said i think the Captain HAS to be a forward

In '05 England finished 4th and still made up by far the bulk of the squad. Even though Wales finished 5th this year they were much more competitive than that England side in '05. In this years six nations 5th isnt as bad as it sounds.

05 tour was a huge success for the Lions wasn't it?

There isn't a obvious captain IMO - I'd probably pick Warburton as tour captain. A non controversial pick. He's likely to tour anyway.

No but Wales arent as bad now as England were then.

Gunsgerms it doesn't matter. Wales still shouldn't have more representation than England.

I didn't mind Wales getting more representation in 2013. Sure I argued about the likes of Phillips and Lydiate but not because they were Welsh, just didn't want a non scrum half at 9 and an one dimensional tackling machine at 6 who had been injured for months.

I wouldn't want Moriarty at 8 because he's not really a 8. Perhaps Wales are happy to have someone who likes to tackle more than carry at 8 but for Lions I'd like to see a big ball carrier.

I dont think they should either but I do think there will be a healthy number of Wales players and there should be IMO. Possibly the same amount or more than the Irish players.

There reality is there is very little between Ireland, Wales and England and even Scotland even if England are better at the moment.

majesticimperialman wrote:I do not know who will be Captain for the Lions. 

But in all honesty i do not think it will be Warburton. Since they took the Captaincy arm band off him he as been playing out of his skull.

Brilliant!

The way I see it, there are 5 players I can say with some certainty will start a test if they can remain injury free:

Hogg at Fullback
Farrell at Inside Centre
Sexton at Fly half
Billy V at no.8
Stander at blindside flank.

Would you say any of those are captain material? I'd have to say no. Hence I'd say it's more likely that we go down the route of a tour captain, for that guys like Warburton or Robshaw would be perfect candidates (should they make the tour).

I think Farrell is good enough to be a captain but maybe not the best option for captain. In the last Lions tour in one of his half time speeches Paul O'connell gave the team a bollicking by saying that the only one showing any leadership was Owen Farrell. The guy must have it in him.

think it was this clip
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rsWxJG6CS34

For me the Best options are Best and AWJ. Probably AWJ shading it.

GunsGermsV2 wrote:I think Farrell is good enough to be a captain but maybe not the best option for captain. In the last Lions tour in one of his half time speeches Paul O'connell gave the team a bollicking by saying that the only one showing any leadership was Owen Farrell. The guy must have it in him.

think it was this clip
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rsWxJG6CS34

For me the Best options are Best and AWJ. Probably AWJ shading it.

I agree, but he also has a bit of a temper on him.

He does alright. I think Paul O'Connell did too but he seemed to get away with it a lot.

I also don't think Farrell is the most articulate, sure he's perhaps a great guy to have with you on the rugby pitch and inspire others through his performance but a captain has a lot of responsibilities.

There's also a distinct difference between leading on the pitch and being the main figure in a group of 40 odd.

Farrell isn't captain for club or country either.

He has experience though captaining england every time Hartley has been off the pitch.

AWJ had only captained Wales once years ago when Gatland made him Lions captain. Experience would be a plus though.

No 7&1/2 wrote:He has experience though captaining england every time Hartley has been off the pitch.

Sigh your usual - I disagree with beshocked....

Farrell has a little experience as a replacement captain but then again England aren't chock full of captain candidates.

Still is not generally not picked as Saracens captain. Might have been given it if there has been a few injuries though.

Not as if Farrell is 1st choice captain for either club or country.

It's not a disagreement. Just pointing out that he's been the captain on a few occasions.

It's your usual I disagree.. You look to start arguments.

Farrell is still not captain of England - that is Hartley. I don't like either player but have to acknowledge that Hartley is the captain.

I'd rather have a captain to be proud of instead of embarrassed by.

I don't think you need to be an * hole to be captain of club,country or the Lions.

Stop dragging me into an argument with you.

Warburton in my opinion is the most inoffensive choice.

Debatable whether he's the best but I feel AWJ,Hartley and Farrell would be more polarising choices.

Neither Hartley and Farrell are captain of their clubs.

It's really not an argument. I'm just saying Farrell has experience of captaining England. If you want to disagree with a statement of fact go nuts.

Statement of facts? That's something you generally ignore unless it's convenient.

Farrell's small experience of captaining England doesn't mean he should captain Lions. The challenges are different. Looking after a team on pitch for 20-40 minutes is not the same thing as being a tour captain or indeed squad captain.

Making the decision to go for goal etc, kick for touch is something Farrell likes to do anyway.

On the pitch - Farrell is a leader, I am not going to deny that. Looking after press conferences, taking charge in training sessions, generally boosting morale etc is not the same thing.

I don't ignore facts just throwing it out there he has experience. I seem to remember someone saying Hartley leadership isn't that important as he's off the put h for the crucial minutes. But to emphasise I am simply saying he's one of the favourites for the team seems to be a leader and has experience of captaining his country. In the end there's likely to be 3 or 4 guys in the team that are capable of captaining as long as they aren't all telling aw jones what to do well be fine.

Hartley's leadership in the 6 nations was pretty poor. I don't think it was Farrell's captaincy that won us the games in the last minutes of the game either. It's not as if either player is alone.

I think England have got to where they are through primarily superior coaching and generally superior depth to the opposition. Not superior leadership.

It's why I am particularly worried about the Lions, a lack of clear captain options and a mediocre coaching set up.

Perhaps you'd be pleased if either Hartley or Farrell captain the Lions - I wouldn't.

The Lions arent short of leaders at all, maybe short of one stand out leader but Farrell, Sexton, AWJ, Warburton, Best, Heaslip, Hartely, Launchbury etc are all good leaders.

With no clear and outstanding choice, I think Gatland will go with Sam Warburton. He's a decent bet for the 7 jersey in the Tests, having played well in the 6 Nations (albeit at 6), and has captaincy experience with both Wales and the Lions. He also has a good bond with Gatland.

Which is a different discussion perhaps valid perhaps not. You seem to suggest that captaincy is and isn't important all in a few sentences beshocked. To be honest I'd like to see the team named and then have a look. I agree with guns in that there will be a few players whatever the team who could lead.

Gunsgerms I said the Lions lack a clear captain option.

You might claim those players are all good leaders but who stands out as captain?

I don't think Launchbury did his claims any favours. I think Heaslip is overrated, particularly by Irish fans. Hartley has been struggling for form and personally I thought his leadership in the 6 nations was poor.

Most of those players are leaders but wouldn't pick as captain.

No 7 & 1/2 captaincy can be both important and unimportant. It's not straightforward. The importance can be overstated. In the Lions case there is no outstanding candidate so a simply agreeable option like Warburton would make sense.

Equally for England I don't think there has been an outstanding candidate but Hartley has done a solid job so has Farrell off the bench.

I don't think Hartley is the tactical genius some posters think though.

Captaincy can be important but not always.

I know, let's use straws.  Now who has the short one?

This is becoming laughable.... the finger nail eating to find a proper Captain that lords it above the rest with the heroic glow and the super-hero cape.  

You've all admitted over and over that for whatever reason (National bias being a big one ) there are no clear cuts.  And yet the debate is going around in circles still trying to find the clear-cut ghost. "I like the way he frowns when being interviewed, shows he is taking his role seriously and won't be intimidated by the Ruskie backed New Zealanders. He's the obvious choice."

The obvious choice doesn't exist obviously - so just let Gatland make his own choice - which will be POM

Trust the Irishman to suggest straws, you lot just love clutching at them...

They are planning on changing the captaincy format with having a Tour Captain who might not necessarily start.

If that is the case, they will be looking at a captain that doesn't throw a hissy fit if they are not selected.

No we Irish love bookies - chance, Russian Roulette. So come, mikey - is you afraid of a short straw contest? Ring Gatland this instant and tell him the 606ers have decided that the Captain is going to be chosen for him.......

He's free to choose the rest of them - i.e., the Plane Journey Captain, the Hotel Jacuzzi Captain, the Fraternising with the Female Natives Captain, the Post-Test-Blues Captain, the Tucking-In Captain etc, etc, etc.

Sin é wrote:They are planning on changing the captaincy format with having a Tour Captain who might not necessarily start.

If that is the case, they will be looking at a captain that doesn't throw a hissy fit if they are not selected.

In the words of that Great Irish-Dutch Bard, DOD:  Horse schidt.

Sin é wrote:They are planning on changing the captaincy format with having a Tour Captain who might not necessarily start.

Wilkinson has argued for that approach recently too. Not sure the sponsors want it that way, though, and they do pay a lot of the bills.

beshocked wrote:Gunsgerms I said the Lions lack a clear captain option.

You might claim those players are all good leaders but who stands out as captain?

I don't think Launchbury did his claims any favours. I think Heaslip is overrated, particularly by Irish fans. Hartley has been struggling for form and personally I thought his leadership in the 6 nations was poor.

Most of those players are leaders but wouldn't pick as captain.

No 7 & 1/2 captaincy can be both important and unimportant. It's not straightforward. The importance can be overstated. In the Lions case there is no outstanding candidate so a simply agreeable option like Warburton would make sense.

Equally for England I don't think there has been an outstanding candidate but Hartley has done a solid job so has Farrell off the bench.

I don't think Hartley is the tactical genius some posters think though.

Captaincy can be important but not always.

You would have to extend that to the World Player of the Year panel, last two Lions coaches and last three Ireland coaches too then because Heaslip has been selected as a regular starter by the last three Ireland coaches and the last two Lions coaches and was recently nominated to be world player of the year.

It seems to be the most knowledgeable people rate him highly and selected groups of fans dont rate him probably because he has never really been a flash player.

I think he has a good a chance as any 8 to tour as you can find fault in them all:

Vunapola, not the player he was last year. Didnt feature in the 6 nations until the last game where he was largely anonymous.
Faletau, has been injured too.
Hughes, looked average enough in the six nations for England.
Moriarty, looked very good for Wales but quite inexperienced compared to all other options.
Stander is a possibility but is inexperienced as an 8 at international level. Better 6?

I'd concur with beshocked moriarty doesn't carry well enough to be an 8 and isn't in the class of Vunipola faletau or even Hughes. If the plan is to tackle all day fair enough but I'd question the wisdom of just picking a side on defence.

Billy V can't be the player he was last year if he misses most of the 6 nations....  

Billy V was invisible vs the Scots except of course for his try and his assist.....

Don't think NZ have a coach who specifically knows exactly how to target Billy V like Andy Farrell.

To be fair Andy Farrell did his job well - help successfully nullify a player he knows very well who was coming back from injury but doesn't mean NZ will do the same.

When I've seen Heaslip this year and last year he's been missing in action.

Didn't turn up in the first half vs Scotland. Struggled vs Wales.

His injury vs England actually helped Ireland.

Don't see what all the fuss is about these days. Used to be a good no 8 a while back but these days he's an overhyped player.

The Scotland England game was the only game of the 6 nations I missed. Was he really good?

I think it is silly and a little naive to put Billy Vs poor game down solely to Andy Farrell. Is it Farrell's fault Billy V pi$$ed himself that night too?

Heaslip has very rarely been missing in action. Very consistent player.

So you seriously think Heaslip played well vs Scotland and Wales?

I thought his poor performances contributed to the losses.

Billy V wasn't amazing vs Scotland, solid 7/10 but he did contribute to the demolition job in his cameo. Looked to pass the ball more than M Brown and had the power to drive over albeit with help from Launchbury.

Admittedly passing the ball more than Brown isn't hard.

Sometimes you have to applaud the tactics of the opposition even if they are one dimensional. Yes the tactics employed by A.Farrell were important to Ireland's tactic of shackling Billy. England are easier to beat when their primary ball carrier is basically nullified.

Ireland's tactics aren't original but if England can't answer it.... credit to Ireland.

England's tactics aren't original either, shocked. It's called rugby - we all borrow from each other as we go round in circles.
Ireland won because they shackled/smothered/handcuffed/bagged/hogtied England's beautiful game? No, Ireland won because they played rugby and played it better on the day than England did. You don't have to qualify it by highlighting how unoriginal it all was. It was rugby.

beshocked wrote:So you seriously think Heaslip played well vs Scotland and Wales?

I thought his poor performances contributed to the losses.

Billy V wasn't amazing vs Scotland, solid 7/10 but he did contribute to the demolition job in his cameo. Looked to pass the ball more than M Brown and had the power to drive over albeit with help from Launchbury.

Admittedly passing the ball more than Brown isn't hard.

Sometimes you have to applaud the tactics of the opposition even if they are one dimensional. Yes the tactics employed by A.Farrell were important to Ireland's tactic of shackling Billy. England are easier to beat when their primary ball carrier is basically nullified.

Ireland's tactics aren't original but if England can't answer it.... credit to Ireland.

As a team we played badly enough against both sides. Against Scotland Ireland including Heaslip rallied well in the second half. Against Wales as usual the Wales backrow nullified any of the Irish backrows carries by chopping them down.

I dont think he was any worse than anyone else in those games but as usual for some reason he tends to be the scapegoat.

secretfly as long as you win no? It's rugby yes but there are games that are easier on the eye than others.

Sadly most Ireland vs England games are a borefest.

Yes gunsgerms you rallied in the 2nd half but the problem is Scotland built up a big lead. Those are the tactics - you need to be able to combat it.

Whether he was better or worse is irrelevant if he was poor . Not really good to win the competition of whose the least worst player on your team.

beshocked wrote:secretfly as long as you win no? It's rugby yes but there are games that are easier on the eye than others.

Sadly most Ireland vs England games are a borefest.

No, that's a 'play it our way to save yourself embarrassment and slurs of being unoriginal... so that we can win' trick . The ABs often tried that with Wales. They'd talk about how they liked Wales because Wales tried to play it their way. Yeah, and didn't the All Blacks love meeting the Welsh when they fell for the schmaltz.

Ireland played their game better than England could play theirs. There are no extra points for artistry or style. Besides, Rugby Union is a very diverse sport - many aspects that attract different levels of love and enjoyment. Some folks love that breakdown area collision stuff. Art is in the eye of the beholder.

Heaslip is great for doing a lot of unseen work. In fact there have been quite a few games where you wouldn't think he was playing at all.

Billy V was not amazing against Scotland, he was amazing vs Glasgow though

Geen sport voor watjes wrote:Heaslip is great for doing a lot of unseen work. In fact there have been quite a few games where you wouldn't think he was playing at all.

  The old ones with cobwebs on are always the best.

Heaslip is not Richard Hill

His unseen work is unseen because he isn't doing it

If he tours my money is on Gethin going too

It's a conspiracy theory!!!!

.... the irrational fear of and hatred for poor Jamie is part of the World Paranoia about the Communist basterdes infiltrating our precious bodily fluids and turning our genetic coding off so that we can't breed no more!!!...well, except for the inbred-mid-western hicks who are impervious to genetic coding manipulation from the Ruskies.

Gwlad wrote:Heaslip is not Richard Hill

His unseen work is unseen because he isn't doing it

If he tours my money is on Gethin going too

Heaslip, Bowe, Phillips, Jenkins and Kearney are all Gatland faves.

NZ are quaking in their boots.

Nah they'll just conveniently discover some poor Tongans/Fijians/Samoans who are eligible, job done.

"Heaslip, Bowe, Phillips, Jenkins and Kearney are all Gatland faves.

NZ are quaking in their boots"




My faith in Gats and De Lions have just been revived.  I knew Gats would cop on when he seriously reflected on the right commandos to take on this mission.  You can't be picking Launchburys, Dalys, Haskells and Hugheses that get shown up by eejits like the BFG, Mad McFad and Harry Potter at 15....

Warburton should be captain simply because he and Gatland already have history in the partnership. It's easy, and they just need to pick up where they left off.

It would be crazy to make Farrell captain. In NZ he'll be under so much pressure just to play and kick well, let alone take on the many extra duties as Captain.

Easy one really.