Wasps v Leinster Saturday 1st April

Wasps have named a very strong side:

15. Kurtley Beale
14. Christian Wade
13. Elliot Daly
12. Jimmy Gopperth
11. Willie Le Roux
10. Danny Cipriani
9. Dan Robson
1. Matt Mullan
2. Tommy Taylor
3. Jake Cooper-Woolley
4. Joe Launchbury (c)
5. Kearnan Myall
6. James Haskell
7. Thomas Young
8. Nathan Hughes

Replacements:
16. Ashley Johnson
17. Simon McIntyre
18. Marty Moore
19. Matt Symons
20. Alex Rieder
21. Joe Simpson
22. Alapati Leiua
23. Josh Bassett

Decent Leinster side too:

15. Joey Carbery
14. Adam Byrne
13. Garry Ringrose
12. Robbie Henshaw
11. Isa Nacewa (captain)
10. Jonathan Sexton
9. Luke McGrath
1. Jack McGrath
2. Richardt Strauss
3. Tadhg Furlong
4. Devin Toner
5. Hayden Triggs
6. Dan Leavy
7. Sean O’Brien
8. Jack Conan

Replacements:
16. James Tracy
17. Cian Healy
18. Michael Bent
19. Ross Molony
20. Josh van der Flier
21. Jamison Gibson-Park
22. Fergus McFadden
23. Zane Kirchner

Leinster Rugby (caps in brackets)

15. Joey Carbery (17)
14. Adam Byrne (19)
13. Garry Ringrose (35)
12. Robbie Henshaw (9)
11. Isa Nacewa (165) CAPTAIN
10. Johnny Sexton (133)
9. Luke McGrath (70)
1. Jack McGrath (107)
2. Richardt Strauss (142)
3. Tadhg Furlong (62)
4. Devin Toner (193)
5. Hayden Triggs (26)
6. Dan Leavy (33)
7. Seán O’Brien (109)
8. Jack Conan (46)

16. James Tracy (36)
17. Cian Healy (168)
18. Michael Bent (82)
19. Ross Molony (39)
20. Josh van der Flier (39)
21. Jamison Gibson-Park (23)
22. Fergus McFadden (147)
23. Zane Kirchner (82)

The backs for both side are very strong. This could be a belter.

Dont know much about the Wasps front row. Possible weakness? to be fair though they have Marty Moore on the bench so cant be too weak.

Those Leinster props are a scary prospect for any club side given what the did to the international packs they came up against in the 6N, even their performance against the French pack was very impressive. I think you may be right about the Wasps front row as a potential weakness but the rest of their pack is very strong, and you could probably argue question marks over the Leinster second row.

Is there a question over van der Flier's fitness given that he's not starting? Or is it a case of the starting backrow being preferred and more balanced?

I'm surprised Wasps have Beale at 15 and le Roux at 11 rather than the other way round, but its a very very formidable backline. Perhaps some questions over the defense of the Leinster 13,14 and 15 channel. Ringrose criticism thus far has tended to be around defensive positioning and Adam Byrne whilst scoring trys for fun was a bit found out in that area against the Cardiff Blues as well. In particular if you look at the opportunity the Blues bombed towards the end of the game. Carbery also very green at 15. I think Henshaw has a lot of work to do looking after those outside him.

I'd give Leinster the edge in the pack and with home advantage I predict a narrow Leinster win in Dublin.

I think Ringrose's defense is good but he is just a little inexperienced. He seems to be getting better all the time. Looked good v England.

Artful_Dodger wrote:Those Leinster props are a scary prospect for any club side given what the did to the international packs they came up against in the 6N, even their performance against the French pack was very impressive.  I think you may be right about the Wasps front row as a potential weakness but the rest of their pack is very strong, and you could probably argue question marks over the Leinster second row.

Is there a question over van der Flier's fitness given that he's not starting?  Or is it a case of the starting backrow being preferred and more balanced?

I'm surprised Wasps have Beale at 15 and le Roux at 11 rather than the other way round, but its a very very formidable backline.  Perhaps some questions over the defense of the Leinster 13,14 and 15 channel.  Ringrose criticism thus far has tended to be around defensive positioning and Adam Byrne whilst scoring trys for fun was a bit found out in that area against the Cardiff Blues as well.  In particular if you look at the opportunity the Blues bombed towards the end of the game.  Carbery also very green at 15.  I think Henshaw has a lot of work to do looking after those outside him.

I'd give Leinster the edge in the pack and with home advantage I predict a narrow Leinster win in Dublin.

As far as I can see, in the last match both Leavy and VDF were put on the flanks with a view to the better performer getting rewarded to the starting berth this weekend. In my mind Leavy played a better game against the Blues (though leinster were poor overall) and got the nod.

If I was picking a Wasps side i'd have leRoux at fullback as well though when people talk about having playmakers in your back line, every Wasps back is a playmaker and game changer. To assemble that kind of firepower in a salary cap era is impressive stuff (though elliot and wade are probably still on post-academy-home-town-discount team-friendly contracts).

I don't think Strauss has shown enough this season to be getting the nod over Tracy who I think is the better player. Pity Cronin isn't fit enough to feature. McGrath vs Healy is toss of a coin. Furlong won't let anyone down, pity Ross isn't there on the bench, Bent is good at replacing LH but he ain't a high calibre TH for this level of competition. Toner will thrive back in the provincial set up and they've gone for an enforcer in Triggs to try and compete with Launchbury rather than youth and movement of Molony.

Back row between these two sides might decide the game, not sure which way it'll go.

I'm not sure about Carberry at 15 instead of bringing in the likes of Kirchner for the wing and moving Nacewa to FB. The experience either of those options would give from FB I think is underestimated and a mistake by Cullen in selection. Wades pace against Nacewa's experience is a classic contest.

These are two very good teams, this has the makings of a great game. I was very critical of Cullen at first as I thought it was too early for him but he is really getting a lot out of this Leinster team. I have a feeling that Leinster will nip this one.

GunsGermsV2 wrote:The backs for both side are very strong. This could be a belter.

Dont know much about the Wasps front row. Possible weakness? to be fair though they have Marty Moore on the bench so cant be too weak.

Wasps don't seem to have that many 'big names' up front, at least not as many as I thought. They're not top of premiership for no reason though. This should be one hell of a game, and I think Wasps might just pip Leinster. Having former Leinster players always helps when you play Leinster.

Wasps are solid in the tight five as opposed to spectacular. Mullen and Cooper-Wooley are reliable experienced players but not destructive scrummagers. Myall is athletic and good in the lineout and will compensate for that weakness in Launchbury's game. Taylor at hooker is the exception he's an explosive and athletic player, he's unlucky that there's so many options for England at the minute.

thebandwagonsociety wrote:I'm surprised Wasps have Beale at 15 and le Roux at 11 rather than the other way round, but its a very very formidable backline.

I'm not a Wasps fan but have watched them a fair bit this season and I think having them this way around I feel works for them. They both can sit deep on opposition ball and cover the backfield for kicks in a right side left side kind of way whilst Wade stays closer to the breakdown/ game line. That way Wade's not as exposed to defending high balls plus is close at hand in case of a turnover, where he can be deadly running off the 9 when the defense are not organized.

As for building such an impressive backline within the salary cap then I pretty sure both Beale and Le Roux are the two marquee players for Wasps. You could certainly make an argument that they would have been better to invest some of that cash in a prop or two. But Wasps 9-15 are certainly strong and Jimmy Goperth has been nothing short of a revaluation at 12 this season. AP player of the season for me.

thebandwagonsociety wrote:McGrath vs Healy is toss of a coin.

Just noticed this. Surprised me as an England fan because I thought McGrath was significantly better and should be the starting Lions LH this summer. In the 6N only time we (England) got anything whatsoever out of the scrum in Dublin was when Healy replaced him, regardless of who England had in the front row (both Vunipola and George had come on before he was substituted). Top drawer player.

Wasps scrum has struggled at times this season so Leinster should attack the set piece. If Wasps can get parity up front and the weather is decent then I can see them maybe sneaking the win. Really looking forward to the game.

Shame Wasps were robbed of a home semi by that idiot ref not knowing the laws ...

How nice to see Gopperth back, ready to try to prove once more that it was O'Connor's ...em tactics, shall we call them? ... that held back Leinster more than anything poor Gopperth was trying, though he got a lot of unnecessary flak. Always liked his attitude, he just had nothing to work off with at Leinster at that time.

That Wasps frontrow is pretty strong, all 3 are good solid club players and Taylor is a potential future Int. They're not going to dominate the scrums but that's never really been Wasps way.

Should be a cracker.

Heaf wrote:Shame Wasps were robbed of a home semi by that idiot ref not knowing the laws ...

Yawn. If your good enough you don't rely on the ref

Geen sport voor watjes wrote:

Heaf wrote:Shame Wasps were robbed of a home semi by that idiot ref not knowing the laws ...

Yawn. If your good enough you don't rely on the ref

Yawn ... stupid argument. Wasps were good enough to beat the other team, and most likely would have if the game had been correctly officiated - why should they have to be good enough to make up for an incompetent ref as well. I really don't get this daft idea that if a team loses due to a shocking error by the officials it's somehow their own fault.

Heaf wrote:

Geen sport voor watjes wrote:

Heaf wrote:Shame Wasps were robbed of a home semi by that idiot ref not knowing the laws ...

Yawn. If your good enough you don't rely on the ref

Yawn ... stupid argument.  Wasps were good enough to beat the other team, and most likely would have if the game had been correctly officiated - why should they have to be good enough to make up for an incompetent ref as well.  I really don't get this daft idea that if a team loses due to a shocking error by the officials it's somehow their own fault.

Even more moronic is the arguement that it woz the ref wot doneit. First of all if wasps were good enough they should have held out secondly as it was a penalty how do you know Connacht wouldn't have scored anyhow. Sounds like you are making excuses for tomorrow already. Build a bridge and get over it.

I don't know if this is the same for Leinster, but it really worries me that this Wasps line up hasn't played together for ages. I'd far prefer to be in Saracens shoe's having had the run out together last weekend.

Home advantage could well be the difference, however historically playing away has never worried Wasps. I'm actually more worried about the weather benefiting Leinster's superior front row / forward domination.

If it were a dry day then Wasps would have to be favourites.

All the best one and all - for the game of the season?

Geen sport voor watjes wrote:

Heaf wrote:

Geen sport voor watjes wrote:

Heaf wrote:Shame Wasps were robbed of a home semi by that idiot ref not knowing the laws ...

Yawn. If your good enough you don't rely on the ref

Yawn ... stupid argument.  Wasps were good enough to beat the other team, and most likely would have if the game had been correctly officiated - why should they have to be good enough to make up for an incompetent ref as well.  I really don't get this daft idea that if a team loses due to a shocking error by the officials it's somehow their own fault.

Even more moronic is the arguement that it woz the ref wot doneit. First of all if wasps were good enough they should have held out secondly as it was a penalty how do you know Connacht wouldn't have scored anyhow. Sounds like you are making excuses for tomorrow already. Build a bridge and get over it.

Nothing to do with tomorrow's match and I'm not a Wasps supporter - It just annoys me when officials make huge blunders that can affect the outcome of matches and beyond.  I also said they would most likely have won - not that Connacht would definitely not have scored, but it was far less likely from a tap and go from that far out versus a 5m line-out.  I still can't work out if you're just being obtuse or you really can't understand the simple idea that teams shouldn't have to be good enough to beat the other team and a poor ref - according to your logic if a team lost a match due to a try being incorrectly awarded against them or having a perfectly good try disallowed it would be because they weren't good enough ... so how many extra points should a team score to be 'good enough' to make up for poor officials?

Heaf wrote:

Geen sport voor watjes wrote:

Heaf wrote:

Geen sport voor watjes wrote:

Heaf wrote:Shame Wasps were robbed of a home semi by that idiot ref not knowing the laws ...

Yawn. If your good enough you don't rely on the ref

Yawn ... stupid argument.  Wasps were good enough to beat the other team, and most likely would have if the game had been correctly officiated - why should they have to be good enough to make up for an incompetent ref as well.  I really don't get this daft idea that if a team loses due to a shocking error by the officials it's somehow their own fault.

Even more moronic is the arguement that it woz the ref wot doneit. First of all if wasps were good enough they should have held out secondly as it was a penalty how do you know Connacht wouldn't have scored anyhow. Sounds like you are making excuses for tomorrow already. Build a bridge and get over it.

Nothing to do with tomorrow's match and I'm not a Wasps supporter - It just annoys me when officials make huge blunders that can affect the outcome of matches and beyond.  I also said they would most likely have won - not that Connacht would definitely not have scored, but it was far less likely from a tap and go from that far out versus a 5m line-out.  I still can't work out if you're just being obtuse or you really can't understand the simple idea that teams shouldn't have to be good enough to beat the other team and a poor ref - according to your logic if a team lost a match due to a try being incorrectly awarded against them or having a perfectly good try disallowed it would be because they weren't good enough ... so how many extra points should a team score to be 'good enough' to make up for poor officials?

Totally agree Heaf.
In actual fact the replacement ref made the correct decision initially & said there was no time for a kick to touch. Muldoon, the Connaught captain, then incorrectly persuaded the ref to change his mind stating the laws had changed. The ref changed his mind & allowed the line out which as you say most likely changed the result.

The sport is littered with decisions or lack thereof by officials (good and bad) that affect games and change results. If the queen had balls she would be the king. Despite your protestations it still sounds like a high pitched whine to me. It's in the past get over it. If wasps are good enough they will win today.

SecretFly wrote:How nice to see Gopperth back, ready to try to prove once more that it was O'Connor's ...em tactics, shall we call them? ... that held back Leinster more than anything poor Gopperth was trying, though he got a lot of unnecessary flak.  Always liked his attitude, he just had nothing to work off with at Leinster at that time.  

Yes Secret he has fitted in well at Wasps & the 2 playmakers suits the way Wasps play. I know he isn't one of the nominated players of the EPCR but he would have got my vote.

Today's Officials are;

Match Officials
Referee Nigel Owens (Wales)
Touch Judge 1 Romain Poite (France)
Touch Judge 2 Ian Davies (Wales)
TMO Jonathan Mason (Wales)
Citing Commissioner Yves Thieffine (France)

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:

SecretFly wrote:How nice to see Gopperth back, ready to try to prove once more that it was O'Connor's ...em tactics, shall we call them? ... that held back Leinster more than anything poor Gopperth was trying, though he got a lot of unnecessary flak.  Always liked his attitude, he just had nothing to work off with at Leinster at that time.  

Yes Secret he has fitted in well at Wasps & the 2 playmakers suits the way Wasps play. I know he isn't one of the nominated players of the EPCR but he would have got my vote.

Gopperth had limitations as a flyhalf sd does Cipriani what's worked well for Wasps is that their strengths cover the weaknesses of the other. Similar to Ford and Farrell for England. 

What I've liked about Gopperth at 12 is that it allows him to be as aggressive as he likes in defence and with ball in hand he is pretty decent especially with no pressure to orchestrate the back line. He still kicks very well and Cipriani is flourishing with no defensive or kicking burdens. He just runs his attacking game which is fairly devastating.

Geen sport voor watjes wrote:The sport is littered with decisions or lack thereof by officials (good and bad) that affect games and change results. If the queen had balls she would be the king. Despite your protestations it still sounds like a high pitched whine to me. It's in the past get over it. If wasps are good enough they will win today.

True there are lots of poor decisions - but a ref getting a fundamental law wrong is way worse than a poor judgement call or a ref missing something. The net result is Wasps most likely lost the opportunity of a home match (not versus Leinster) and now find themselves away to Leinster - a much more difficult prospect to get through to the next round now than they might of had if the ref had not been incompetent. If this sounds like whining to you, well that's up to you - it's a forum and I was making a point about how I felt they were hard done by to find themselves facing Leinster away due to one of the worst blunders we've seen for a while.

Will Gopperth be the difference?

His knowledge of Leinster maybe crucial.

Keith Wood has just said this match will be weather dependent.

Leinster controlling possession well until a sliced clearance out on the full by Sexton. Leinster a touch lucky with a successful choke tackle just in front of their line, I'm unsure whether Owens called maul before or after a retreating Leinster player joined from the Wasps side.

Owens totally bottled it there.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Owens totally bottled it there.

At the tackle/maul or the multi penalty offence on the Wasps try line?

formerly known as Sam wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Owens totally bottled it there.

At the tackle/maul or the multi penalty offence on the Wasps try line?

Sorry, I very delayed, it was the Wasps try line penalty. That had to be a yellow.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Owens totally bottled it there.

At the tackle/maul or the multi penalty offence on the Wasps try line?

Sorry, I very delayed, it was the Wasps try line penalty. That had to be a yellow.

I think BOD summed it up well. It's not the offence it's the secondary offence that cynically kills the ball to stop any advantage to be played. 

Just like that Wasps open up Leinster like a tin of beans. You can't kick and chase sloppily to that Wasps back three. Saved by a humiliating inability to dot the ball down.

Can someone point me to the part of the laws that mentions being 'in control' of the ball when grounding ... I thought it said the grounding could be made by the upper body. Unless it was judged as a knock-on that was grounded.

Ref cost wasps again eh. Bloody refs

He had the ball in his hands and in the act of falling over the line, the ball fell from his hands. That is a knock on.

Hard lines for Wasps, score line flattering Leinster. Been a good match but I think the horse may have already bolted for Wasps.

Schmidt must be watching this game hiding behind the sofa with all the offloading going on.

Heaf wrote:Can someone point me to the part of the laws that mentions being 'in control' of the ball when grounding ... I thought it said the grounding could be made by the upper body.  Unless it was judged as a knock-on that was grounded.

If you carry it over the line and touch down you must be in control of the ball. If the ball is over the line and you fall on it you only have to touch the ball with your upper body while the ball is on the ground.

In this case the first offense is the knock on when he loses control

I think Owens and the TMO felt he lost control of the ball before dotting the ball down. There should have been no doubt though, stupid Swan dive was completely unnecessary, he should have been going as close to under the posts as possible and placing the ball down.

Wasps are losing this because they are nowhere close to the intensity that Leinster are bringing to the game. Leinster have the tactics spot on, hard defence making it difficult for Wasps to generate momentum, attacking the breakdown to slow the ball down and holding on to possession to take Wasps big attacking names out the game for large parts.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Schmidt must be watching this game hiding behind the sofa with all the offloading going on.

Well there you go Wasps not surprisingly playing as individuals or at best units, but not a cohesive team.

Leinster are completely dominating. 3 trys to zip at the half.

I don't think Haskell is fit and I hope is replaced now. The bench has other very good options that need to be taken.

Quite frankly its going to take a miracle for Wasps to turn this around.

I really like Cipriani but he is not having a great game.

TJ wrote:

Heaf wrote:Can someone point me to the part of the laws that mentions being 'in control' of the ball when grounding ... I thought it said the grounding could be made by the upper body.  Unless it was judged as a knock-on that was grounded.

If you carry it over the line and touch down you must be in control of the ball.  If the ball is over the line and you fall on it you only have to touch the ball with your upper body while the ball is on the ground.

In this case the first offense is the knock on when he loses control

OK I wasn't sure if they were saying it was a knock-on as it was in contact with his body all the time by the looks of it and it may not have gone forwards but I wasn't sure. The fact that you keep hearing the phrase 'in control' used is the bit I'm not sure about as there is no mention of that in the laws so I don't know why they didn't just say it was a knock-on if that's what they judged it to be.

eirebilly wrote:I really like Cipriani but he is not having a great game.

There's all sorts of pressure on him because the forwards are going backwards. If you're going to have an attacking ten you need to give him some sort of platform.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

eirebilly wrote:I really like Cipriani but he is not having a great game.

There's all sorts of pressure on him because the forwards are going backwards. If you're going to have an attacking ten you need to give him some sort of platform.

True but his general decision making seems very off.

Far too casual from Carbery. Wade's pace is just ridiculous. It's a shame that the Wasps aren't playing well collectively because when they actually get possession and stop making silly errors they make a lot of ground.

eirebilly wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:

eirebilly wrote:I really like Cipriani but he is not having a great game.

There's all sorts of pressure on him because the forwards are going backwards. If you're going to have an attacking ten you need to give him some sort of platform.

True but his general decision making seems very off.

It's the reason he's not in the England squad. If he's on the back foot he tries to force all manner of things instead of just playing his game, if you free things you make errors and he's made a few so far. Not a surprise he's now been subbed for some extra muscle in midfield.

Lazy try to give away by Leinster. Should be second nature for someone to drop in when the fullback is in contact.

Almost poetic to watch Furlong put Moore on his behind.

I'm not a Wasps supporter but found Willie Le Roux's mistake so excruciatingly embarrassing, I had to stop watching the match for a bit.

I scored one try in my rugby career - from a distance of about 30cm - so I'm ill-equipped to understand why anyone would think getting the ball down legally shouldn't be a priority.

In all the years people have expected Chris Ashton to butcher a try with his scoring technique, quite a few top players have done exactly that, while he hasn't.

Hard to say whether the match would have changed if Wasps had caused Leinster to rethink at that point. The odds are Leinster would have come back strong again anyway but that would have been more interesting for the neutral. Now Wasps need a purple patch just to get close.

Wasps...

Leinster have really fallen off the tempo and the Wasps smell blood.