Wasps v Leinster Saturday 1st April

First topic message reminder :

Wasps have named a very strong side:

15. Kurtley Beale
14. Christian Wade
13. Elliot Daly
12. Jimmy Gopperth
11. Willie Le Roux
10. Danny Cipriani
9. Dan Robson
1. Matt Mullan
2. Tommy Taylor
3. Jake Cooper-Woolley
4. Joe Launchbury (c)
5. Kearnan Myall
6. James Haskell
7. Thomas Young
8. Nathan Hughes

Replacements:
16. Ashley Johnson
17. Simon McIntyre
18. Marty Moore
19. Matt Symons
20. Alex Rieder
21. Joe Simpson
22. Alapati Leiua
23. Josh Bassett

Decent Leinster side too:

15. Joey Carbery
14. Adam Byrne
13. Garry Ringrose
12. Robbie Henshaw
11. Isa Nacewa (captain)
10. Jonathan Sexton
9. Luke McGrath
1. Jack McGrath
2. Richardt Strauss
3. Tadhg Furlong
4. Devin Toner
5. Hayden Triggs
6. Dan Leavy
7. Sean O’Brien
8. Jack Conan

Replacements:
16. James Tracy
17. Cian Healy
18. Michael Bent
19. Ross Molony
20. Josh van der Flier
21. Jamison Gibson-Park
22. Fergus McFadden
23. Zane Kirchner

Leinster again looked a bit lazy in defence. Slow up off the line and far too quick to drift. Made it all to easy for Gopperth to step through.

Can't believe Carberry wasn't sent for a HIA. He didn't move for some time after getting smacked by Gopperth's hip.

Willie Le Roux, will be the talking point. A stupid thing to do and was at a pivotal moment in the game. All pretty much over now for Wasps but they were their own worst enemy today.

Congrats to Leinster and their fans on a Semi Final

On to the Munster match now

Then Leinster turn it back on and put the game to bed.

I don't know who I would give MoTM for this game. A good team performance from Leinster.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:I don't know who I would give MoTM for this game. A good team performance from Leinster.

Know what you mean. Carbery offered some sparkle from 15, Sexton controlled the game, SOB and Conan were tireless up front. Any of them really.

Leinster at home were the far better side, fully deserved winners.

Wasps as a whole never really looked comparable on the day, so certainly not Cipriani's fault that they lost, but definitely further proof that he's not a big match pressure player, and won't be jumping the players ahead of him for the England shirt anytime soon. Wasps made a major long-term error letting Lozowski go.

I'd expected this match to be a humdinger with all the press beforehand about Wasps.

In the end, much ado about nothing. A spanking by Leinster without even getting out of third gear.

Pot Hale wrote:I'd expected this match to be a humdinger with all the press beforehand about Wasps.  

In the end, much ado about nothing.  A spanking by Leinster without even getting out of third gear.  

That's a fair assessment.

Pot Hale wrote:I'd expected this match to be a humdinger with all the press beforehand about Wasps.  

In the end, much ado about nothing.  A spanking by Leinster without even getting out of third gear.  

Must have been a bad day at the office.

Its always the same in the press AP is the best league so its teams must be the best.

The reality is the best of the pro 12 teams play with a pace and intensity that very few teams in Europe can live with as we saw today

Dai will be very disappointed in his initial selection. The bench were far more effective than their starting counterparts.

I thought Wade made a decent case for himself.

TJ wrote:

Pot Hale wrote:I'd expected this match to be a humdinger with all the press beforehand about Wasps.  

In the end, much ado about nothing.  A spanking by Leinster without even getting out of third gear.  

Must have been a bad day at the office.

Its always the same in the press AP is the best league so its teams must be the best.  

The reality is the best of the pro 12 teams play with a pace and intensity that very few teams in Europe can live with as we saw today

They didn't last season when Wasps and Tigers beat down Leinster and Munster in the pool games.

These things change season to season. This isn't a good year for AP sides. Saints and Tigers are dire, Sale are plucky over achievers with no cash, Wasps are a bunch of talented individuals with iffy set pieces. It's only Sarries that are serious contenders this season. Exeter I thought would offer more of a challenge than they did but there you go.

Hopefully we'll see some transformations over the off season and we'll have a stronger selection of teams for next season.

You've been trying to push the agenda that fast open attacking always wins tj for a while. It's still more to do with how good the team is. Home advantage helps too!

TJ wrote:

Pot Hale wrote:I'd expected this match to be a humdinger with all the press beforehand about Wasps.  

In the end, much ado about nothing.  A spanking by Leinster without even getting out of third gear.  

Must have been a bad day at the office.

Its always the same in the press AP is the best league so its teams must be the best.  

[[/b]The reality is the best of the pro 12 teams play with a pace and intensity that very few teams in Europe can live with as we saw today

I think you are falling into the same trap you criticise the press for with your concluding sentence. It's been 5 years since a Pro12 won the cup & there are a lot of reasons we can all come up with for that!
Leinster were different class yesterday like Wasps were last season against them. A home draw is a big bonus to.

7&1/2 "Home advantage helps"

Being Leinster helps too - not exactly ever regarded as slouches in the realm of Provincial/club rugby when on form.

I was a little surprised to see the idea developed that Wasps would be favourites (on a dry day) because of their exceptional va va, va voom style and domination of AP.  I was surprised given that Leinster had scored more tries this year at League level and let less in.  Two different Leagues to be sure, but when Leinster were dominating Europe a while back, they were scoring less domestic tries than they've scored to date this year in a Pro12 that is quite a bit more competitive at the top.  Their form this year looks slickly assured and ruthless so far.

I'm sure the next game (semi-final) will be a whole other level and all sides that get that far are good enough to win the whole thing but Leinster know all too well how to play crisp direct rugby that wins at this level.  I was surprised people across the pond seemed to forget that so quickly.

SecretFly wrote:7&1/2  "Home advantage helps"

Being Leinster helps too - not exactly ever regarded as slouches in the realm of Provincial/club rugby when on form.

I was a little surprised to see the idea developed that Wasps would be favourites (on a dry day) because of their exceptional va va, va voom style and domination of AP.  I was surprised given that Leinster had scored more tries this year at League level and let less in.  Two different Leagues to be sure, but when Leinster were dominating Europe a while back, they were scoring less domestic tries than they've scored to date this year in a Pro12 that is quite a bit more competitive at the top.  Their form this year looks slickly assured and ruthless so far.

I'm sure the next game (semi-final) will be a whole other level and all sides that get that far are good enough to win the whole thing but Leinster know all too well how to play crisp direct rugby that wins at this level.  I was surprised people across the pond seemed to forget that so quickly.

I think you will struggle to find the last time an away side was favourite in the quarterfinals.
Leinster have struggled away in France this year in the pool stages & yet won at home convincingly with their 'crisp direct style'.

It's all about timing Trev.  Next job is in France so we'll get to see how much Leinster struggle when the chips are down.  They could very well do (like I said, it's a tough competition that gets only tougher as you progress) but we'll have to wait and see.  This year so far is in any case progress forward after a few bleak years.
It's a pretty good bunch of players (old International hands - plus those promising newlings; Ringrose, Adam Byrne, Carberry etc).  Touch wood, the engine seems to be cranking up again.

Timing is everything Secret. Even for the ref when Wasps were away to Connacht.

There is a subtle difference in playing away at an opponents ground to just playing away but you can't beat a home tie in European Competition.

There you go Fly. Leinster won because of the ref in the wasps Connacht game.

Sod off you wimpy dutch twit. While Wasps were naff yesterday, there comes a point when Muppet like you should be told to Smeg off

So you're saying it wasn't the ref in the Connacht game then?

The original comment was that home advantage is just that an advantage. Leinster are a good side but so are wasps. To suggest his result shows the pro 12 s fast open play is better than another type of rugby is a little clouded as suggesting saracens win over Glasgow shows the opposite. Any style can work brilliantly in rugby.

No 7&1/2 wrote:The original comment was that home advantage is just that an advantage. Leinster are a good side but so are wasps. To suggest his result shows the pro 12 s fast open play is better than another type of rugby is a little clouded as suggesting saracens win over Glasgow shows the opposite. Any style can work brilliantly in rugby.

I was focused on the original comment from kingelderfield, 7: "Home advantage could well be the difference, however historically playing away has never worried Wasps. I'm actually more worried about the weather benefiting Leinster's superior front row / forward domination. If it were a dry day then Wasps would have to be favourites."

I was just curious as to why Wasps would be favourites on a dry day against Sexton, O'Brien, Furlong, Nacewa, Toner, Ringrose, Carbery etc in Dublin? I don't think either side had the honour to arrive as clear favourites, given their respective seasons to date. The game really had to decide.

I fancied wasps to win but wouldn't have money on it!

I think Leinster were for sure favourites yesterday and backed them to win on Superbru - had the match been at the Ricoh I think I would have picked it the other way.

On reflection l was over confident in the Wasps back rows ability to produce quick ball to enable the back line the opportunity.
Take absolutely nothing away from Leinster who performed a level above.
I just hope that Wasps park this performance, learn from it and go on to deliver over the remainder of the season.
That said there were a number of senior players who did not perform on Saturday, and while you could point the finger at their relative unfamiliarity and possible fatigue, the fact is there was a collective failure in leadership and a continued loss of form would be a huge disappointment.

kingelderfield wrote:On reflection l was over confident in the Wasps back rows ability to produce quick ball to enable the back line the opportunity.
Take absolutely nothing away from Leinster who performed a level above.
I just hope that Wasps park this performance, learn from it and go on to deliver over the remainder of the season.
That said there were a number of senior players who did not perform on Saturday, and while you could point the finger at their relative unfamiliarity and possible fatigue, the fact is there was a collective failure in leadership and a continued loss of form would be a huge disappointment.

Leinster do have pretty much have an international class backrow so that was always going to be tough.

On paper Wasps backs looked better and more experienced but the game was won in the forwards. The Leinster pack was outstanding. Its no surprise Leinster continue to make up a large proportion of the Ireland squad even though Munster are really good now too.

It was nice to watch Carbery but he can be a bit over confident at times. His mistakes did lead to Wasps tries.

The good news for Leinster and the reason they are one of the best teams in Europe again is because most of their best players are young home grown guys like Carbery, Conan, Furlong, Byrne or VDF for example.

Also its really nice to see McFadden prove the doubters wrong time and time again. Great player.

I feel that Leinster will win at least one European cup in the next three years.

I genuinely think Wasps could have won if not for that Le roux balls up.

Would have made it 8-7 and game on - psychologically it would have made a huge difference.

As kingelderfield said Wasps played like individuals and not a team.

Cipriani has shown why an England recall is very unlikely, made Ford look like a backrow forward defensively, decision making poor.

Superb solo try by Wade but defensively he's not reliable enough sadly.

I feel most sorry for Beale, put in so much effort, must be frustating for him to see his team mate making such a error off his assist.

I don't think Sexton played particularly well but with his opposite number even worse he didn't need to really.

Sexton made a couple of uncharacteristic kicking blunders but I don't think that should detract too much from the usual volume of good work he put in. Good goal kicking, lead the back line well and provided good leadership when required.

I think Gopperth was Wasps best player or possibly Beale. Cipriani is a couple of levels below Lions test level.

A more cohesive side I feel would have punished Sexton's mistakes more.

Credit to Leinster though for controlling the game.

Clermont should be more organised though.

Gopperth was indeed good, his try was an excellent effort. Wasps can be dangerous as they showed but weren't able to build enough.

Cipriani in my opinion isn't really close to being England 10 either - I'd pick the following ahead - Farrell,Ford,Slade,Lozoskwi.

Cipriani has serious talent but he clearly isnt the sharpest tool in the box so the talent is wasted a little.

Clermont will probably be too much for Leinster but not impossible. Leinster have won there before. I think Leinster will have the right game plan but time will tell if it works or not.

GunsGermsV2 wrote:The good news for Leinster and the reason they are one of the best teams in Europe again is because most of their best players are young home grown guys like Carbery, Conan, Furlong, Byrne or VDF for example.

Also its really nice to see McFadden prove the doubters wrong time and time again. Great player.

I feel that Leinster will win at least one European cup in the next three years.

There are understandable comparisons between this and the Ireland and England Six Nations match. In some ways, it reminded me more of the 2015 premiership final between Saracens and Bath.

Both winners made vaunted attacking teams look a bit amateurish, and the fightback by the both losing sides always looked off the pace.

Geen sport voor watjes wrote:

GunsGermsV2 wrote:The good news for Leinster and the reason they are one of the best teams in Europe again is because most of their best players are young home grown guys like Carbery, Conan, Furlong, Byrne or VDF for example.

Also its really nice to see McFadden prove the doubters wrong time and time again. Great player.

I feel that Leinster will win at least one European cup in the next three years.

Set up one try scored another. The joke is on you.

GunsGermsV2 wrote:

Geen sport voor watjes wrote:

GunsGermsV2 wrote:The good news for Leinster and the reason they are one of the best teams in Europe again is because most of their best players are young home grown guys like Carbery, Conan, Furlong, Byrne or VDF for example.

Also its really nice to see McFadden prove the doubters wrong time and time again. Great player.

I feel that Leinster will win at least one European cup in the next three years.

Set up one try scored another. The joke is on you.

Should be on the Irish team. No wait the Lions squad. Even better European player of the year.

How can he be on the Ireland team? Do you mean in the Ireland team?

He is too old now to be in the Ireland team but he is still a very good player and would do a good job if called on to plug a hole. 32 caps for your country is pretty good.

GunsGermsV2 wrote:How can he be on the Ireland team? Do you mean in the Ireland team?

He is too useless now to be in the Ireland team but he is still a very good player and would do a good job if called on to plug a hole. 32 caps for your country is pretty good, considering how useless he has been.

Fixed that for you

10 tries for Ireland in 32 caps is hardly useless. He has scored more tries in less games for Ireland than Simon Zebo. Again the joke seems to be on you.

394 points in 146 games for Leinster is also hardly useless.

B91212 wrote:

thebandwagonsociety wrote:McGrath vs Healy is toss of a coin.

Just noticed this. Surprised me as an England fan because I thought McGrath was significantly better and should be the starting Lions LH this summer. In the 6N only time we (England) got anything whatsoever out of the scrum in Dublin was when Healy replaced him, regardless of who England had in the front row (both Vunipola and George had come on before he was substituted). Top drawer player.

Wasps scrum has struggled at times this season so Leinster should attack the set piece. If Wasps can get parity up front and the weather is decent then I can see them maybe sneaking the win. Really looking forward to the game.

For Leinster one will play the first 50 minutes of the game and the other will come on for the final half an hour, so in reality there's only 20 minutes of rugby being moved between them. I prefer McGrath's work ethic and he is the better technical scrummager. Healy has come out of his slump in the last couple of weeks (but still is a bit niave at scrum time). I could see Cullen start Healy and play him for 45 minutes and give McGrath the final 35mins as an impact player. When both are healthy it's a great problem to have.

GunsGermsV2 wrote:10 tries for Ireland in 32 caps is hardly useless. He has scored more tries in less games for Ireland than Simon Zebo. Again the joke seems to be on you.

394 points in 146 games for Leinster is also hardly useless.

The joke is you think he is / was international class. A decent and honest journeyman

Geen sport voor watjes wrote:

GunsGermsV2 wrote:10 tries for Ireland in 32 caps is hardly useless. He has scored more tries in less games for Ireland than Simon Zebo. Again the joke seems to be on you.

394 points in 146 games for Leinster is also hardly useless.

The joke is you think he is / was international class. A decent and honest journeyman

Are you saying Zebo isnt international class given McFadden has a better record?

Stats hunt

Sexton has already said Leinster could have been a whole lot better.... meaning they weren't as good as they could have been - i.e. hands up for obvious errors.  But again, what should we have expected - Wasps, numero uno in AP - the desire not to be caught out by Wasps increased the tension and sometimes applied the right amount of mental pressure to cause mistakes.  Wasps were in the same pressure cooker environment and they made their mistakes. One side made less of them.

On McFadden.... if ever there was a player that encapsulates POC's famous line 'Manic Aggression' it has to be Mad McFad - he has absolutely a screw loose somewhere and it's very beneficial to the game he plays which is just about being all over the place with that charging angry-and-mostly-blind-rhino stuff always close to the surface.  Rhinos are very difficult to train - thus why you don't see a whole lot of them doing pirouettes in circuses - thus why McFadd is often a liability and a genius all in the one game.

Being at the match, Carberry was out of position for most of the game, watching the highlights kind of flatters his performance. Still only a kid and for that age it was a brilliant performance. Leinster were correct to have him on the pitch (I would have put Kirchener on the wing with Nacewa at FB) and it was a brave call by Cullen.

Nacewa's experience bested Wades youth and pace for almost the entire match... but that break by Wade for his try was fabulous, there really is something special about seeing a proper speed merchant in top gear just pull away from professional athletes. If he developed the other parts of his game instead of relying just on that pace the sky would be the limit.

Wasps looked most dangerous in broken play. Gopperth could have gotten MOTM considerations even though he was on the losing side.

That pack though for Wasps. Something was just 'off'. Launchbury seemed to be 80%. Haskell wasn't leading by example. Hughes seemed quiet. And with the exception of a couple of smart scrum wins over Healy (which every team seems to get a little too easily), the scrum felt like a potential penalty win to Leinster every time they crouched down to engage.

Saracens seem to be the form team again coming into the business part of the season. If Wasps meet them in the Jeff with silverware on the line I'm not sure that pack can get close enough to parity for that backline to bring home the victory.

I don't think being no 1 in a league necessarily makes you the better team.

I think Munster > Leinster, Saracens > Wasps. Clermont > Rochelle.

That's just my opinion.

Wasps obviously play it with the philosophy of 'we'll score more than you'.  When that philosophy is hit by a team that also pays attention to defence ...then the foundations of the philosophy can crumble.  Wasps have been letting tries in in their League because they are pointedly too finely tuned to attack.  You have to go down to 8th in their league to find a team that has let in the same number of tries (49)  That's why I felt it was always on for Leinster to add more to that Wasps 'TA' category.

So I always look for the side close to the top that has the lowest try count against them - they're usually a real serious side and of course in terms of Pro12, Munster are always there or thereabout on the philosophy of 'defences wins games'.  
Leinster have a relatively high leakage rate but also have that 'we'll score more than you' philosophy about them to fall back on.  Munster and Ospreys are the danger men with less generosity.  Munster better than Leinster?  Different philosophy.  That's probably always been the battle between those two sides - the clash of philosophies.
In AP, yep, with only 19 tries against them, Saracens are a serious outfit to be wary of.  I guess Munster are the ideal side to meet them - two balanced sides in terms of attack and defence.
In Top14, I think La Rochelle are backing up their ranking in that league with only 33 tries being scored against them as distinct from 2nd placed Clermont having 49 put past them.

Hopefully we'll see some 'bounce back ability' on show at the Ricoh next Sunday.
A few players reputations need repairing.

Agree King. What's done is done.

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2017/apr/03/wasps-leinster-european-champions-cup-rugby-union-saracens

Interesting stats about home and away in this piece & a good summary of where Wasps are.

SecretFly wrote:Wasps obviously play it with the philosophy of 'we'll score more than you'.  When that philosophy is hit by a team that also pays attention to defence ...then the foundations of the philosophy can crumble.  Wasps have been letting tries in in their League because they are pointedly too finely tuned to attack.  You have to go down to 8th in their league to find a team that has let in the same number of tries (49)  That's why I felt it was always on for Leinster to add more to that Wasps 'TA' category.

So I always look for the side close to the top that has the lowest try count against them - they're usually a real serious side and of course in terms of Pro12, Munster are always there or thereabout on the philosophy of 'defences wins games'.  
Leinster have a relatively high leakage rate but also have that 'we'll score more than you' philosophy about them to fall back on.  Munster and Ospreys are the danger men with less generosity.  Munster better than Leinster?  Different philosophy.  That's probably always been the battle between those two sides - the clash of philosophies.
In AP, yep, with only 19 tries against them, Saracens are a serious outfit to be wary of.  I guess Munster are the ideal side to meet them - two balanced sides in terms of attack and defence.
In Top14, I think La Rochelle are backing up their ranking in that league with only 33 tries being scored against them as distinct from 2nd placed Clermont having 49 put past them.

Talking more about who I think are better sides when including European form.

Wasps are still in development phase. Plus I question a side who spends more of their budget on getting high profile backs instead of forwards. A backline generally needs a good forward pack performance.

Clermont have in the last few years generally been in the business end of the tournament - best side not to win it. Much more European experience than Rochelle.

Leinster are a good side, I am just more wary of Munster because I feel like they can deal with the Sarries gameplan with more effect.

Munster at home should be able to beat Sarries, although I would say if Leinster played Sarries at home they would also beat them. I think both Munster and Leinster would struggle to beat Clermont away but both could pull it off. Not much between the sides at the moment.