NZ trying to get pre-Lions warm up vs Samoa

First topic message reminder :

NZ are aiming to organise themselves a warm up match ahead of the 1st Lions test, in an effort to avoid being caught out by the AB's now-traditional slow start to the international season.

One plan being mooted is a test vs Samoa - ideally setting up a double header, probably at Albany Stadium on Auckland's North Shore with Tonga vs Wales as the curtain raiser. It'd be a nice wee bonus for any travelling fans not able to get to the Maori vs Lions match in Rotorua


http://www.nzherald.co.nz/rugby/news/article.cfm?c_id=80&objectid=11829670

Griff wrote:

Gooseberry wrote:

Taylorman wrote:

Do you even know a pacific islander? have you ever met one?

Probably not. Yet here we have Mr expert telling us how it is.

Sat with the Tullagi family at one Tigers game. Theres usually a fair contingent of them there, although only the tip of the iceberg of the exntended famil that settled in the county now. They seem to be reasonably happy and content with the opportunities rugby gave when Freddie snr came over.  Freddie Jnr is now playing, as did his brother Brian (now at Saracens).

Meanwhile George Ford cant cope being at Bath without his dad so is emirgrating back home.

I guess the point is everyones story is individual and unique to them.

While I don't agree with Gwlad's comments and think he's generally on the wind up (sorry Gwlad!), I do often get the sense that NZ fans think no-one in the world apart from them knows, interacts with or understands people from the non-NZ pacific islands such as Samoa, Tonga , Fiji, etc.  They call us ignorant but are perhaps themselves ignorant to the fact that there are whole communities of Pacific Island families living in Wales.  Big in the church, big in the community, etc.  My daughter has friends in school of Pacific Island heritage, but who were born here to PI parents.  A number of families came over in the 70's, 80's and 90's to play rugby when it was still amateur.  So no money for rugby (or not much), they weren't 'poached' as such, but came over to play rugby and then secure employment in local businesses and ended up settling down to raise families.  The famous examples are the Vunipolas and Faletaus, but there are many more who played only semi-pro or lower league rugby.  Fe'ao Vunipola went on to become a quantity surveyor and a few friends have worked with him in the South Wales area, so it's not all about exploiting them as pieces of meat.  They often stay to pursue qualifications, careers, etc. which is great.

Cool, that's really good to know. They're such a down to earth genuine people where family connection and just being together is so much more important than anything else... materialism doesn't come easily or naturally.

South Auckland has the largest concentration of PIers than anywhere, including the Islands themselves so it's a very vibrant, colourful, loud environment. The shift in thinking towards better education, employment opportunities tended to take a back seat to family, Church, sport, cultural activities etc for much of the early migrants in the 70's and 80's and employment in general wasn't strong through that period.

That's changing slowly with each generation but it still has a way to go, but it's good to hear the numbers are high enough in certain parts of Wales to get some sort of sense of their own culture, language etc while they integrate into the local scene.

Being close to nature in general they're particularly strong in sports where power or athleticism is required and mostly excel at team sports, tending not to want to stand out individually, or go it alone so to speak.

The changes I've seen in confidence levels of some has stunned me where they're typically naturally shy when it comes to the media, public speaking etc.

Vaiaga Tuigamala could hardly mutter a word in interviews when he burst onto the scene as an 18 year old winger and over the years his confidence levels were astounding and very unlike Pacific Islanders in general.

Then I hear the stories of how he helped turn Jason Robinsons life and career around just by being so confident in being himself, having complete trust in his faith etc. without all the trimmings  and excesses that seem to trap the pro's of today.

Valerie Adams our shot putter was the same, outwardly timid but growing unbelievably in confidence as a person after success in the wider sporting world and it's a pity it's really only a small percentage get to mature in that respect.

So it's good to see they're well received and are thriving because they are sooo out of their comfort zones. It will take time but good to know things are working for those that do take that leap.

Two things I'm blessed with growing up in South Auckland, one being the emergence and success of the Auckland team of the 80s, the other being part of the thriving Pacific Island community.

Do they go hand in hand? Who knows.

So look after em!

Cheers Griff, Gooseberry.

Got me thinking, since the dawn of professionalism:
40 born and bred* New Zealanders have debuted for a home nation,
25 born and bred South Africans have debuted for a home nation,
12 born and bred Australians have debuted for a home nation,
4 born and bred Pacific Islanders have debuted for a home nation.
Have any born and bred home nations players debuted for any of the above teams in the last 21 years?

* A player who has moved to the representative nation at high school age or older

Not grey and not a ghost wrote:Got me thinking, since the dawn of professionalism:
40 born and bred* New Zealanders have debuted for a home nation,
25 born and bred South Africans have debuted for a home nation,
12 born and bred Australians have debuted for a home nation,
4 born and bred Pacific Islanders have debuted for a home nation.
Have any born and bred home nations players debuted for any of the above teams in the last 21 years?

* A player who has moved to the representative nation at high school age or older

Thinking? You did that from memory?

Gooseberry wrote:

Not grey and not a ghost wrote:Got me thinking, since the dawn of professionalism:
40 born and bred* New Zealanders have debuted for a home nation,
25 born and bred South Africans have debuted for a home nation,
12 born and bred Australians have debuted for a home nation,
4 born and bred Pacific Islanders have debuted for a home nation.
Have any born and bred home nations players debuted for any of the above teams in the last 21 years?

* A player who has moved to the representative nation at high school age or older

Thinking? You did that from memory?

No. The original debate got me thinking so I did a bit of background digging on test players. Started with NZ, then worked my way along. Probably wasted far too much time I can't justify.

Not grey and not a ghost wrote:Got me thinking, since the dawn of professionalism:
40 born and bred* New Zealanders have debuted for a home nation,
25 born and bred South Africans have debuted for a home nation,
12 born and bred Australians have debuted for a home nation,
4 born and bred Pacific Islanders have debuted for a home nation.
Have any born and bred home nations players debuted for any of the above teams in the last 21 years?

* A player who has moved to the representative nation at high school age or older

What nationality are we classing the Vunipola's as then?

They are Tongans not born there who play for England.

Billy is an aussie and mako a kiwi from memory.

Not grey and not a ghost wrote:Got me thinking, since the dawn of professionalism:
40 born and bred* New Zealanders have debuted for a home nation,
25 born and bred South Africans have debuted for a home nation,
12 born and bred Australians have debuted for a home nation,
4 born and bred Pacific Islanders have debuted for a home nation.
Have any born and bred home nations players debuted for any of the above teams in the last 21 years?

* A player who has moved to the representative nation at high school age or older

You're ignoring 'waves' of emigration/immigration.  There has always been an ebb and flow.  In the UK we've had periods of mass Caribbean immigration.  We've had Italian immigration.  Irish.  More recently Eastern European.  There's been a sporting emigration of players from those countries you mention above (NZ, Aus, SA) for work because it is so poorly paid in their own countries and they end up representing the land of opportunity that they land in. The same happened many years ago when British people (amongst others) emigrated to NZ, Aus, etc. for better prospects and a new life, and now their descendants are representing the countries that their fore fathers landed in.  How many All Blacks are of European (specifically British European) decent? Lots.  The only difference is time.  You've conveniently put in the 'since the dawn of professionalism' time limit on your post to skew the argument in your favour

Not grey and not a ghost wrote:

Gooseberry wrote:

Not grey and not a ghost wrote:Got me thinking, since the dawn of professionalism:
40 born and bred* New Zealanders have debuted for a home nation,
25 born and bred South Africans have debuted for a home nation,
12 born and bred Australians have debuted for a home nation,
4 born and bred Pacific Islanders have debuted for a home nation.
Have any born and bred home nations players debuted for any of the above teams in the last 21 years?

* A player who has moved to the representative nation at high school age or older

Thinking? You did that from memory?

No. The original debate got me thinking so I did a bit of background digging on test players. Started with NZ, then worked my way along. Probably wasted far too much time I can't justify.

You could have just had a conversation with Beshocked for that

Cyril wrote:

Gooseberry wrote:I guess the point is everyones story is individual and unique to them.

That's certainly true of Gwlad.

Knew you'd chime in as usual

aucklandlaurie wrote: This discussion is one of those situations where Gwlad is looking for the reasons as to why the All Blacks have so much more success than other teams, and to him the only obvious answer can be the players skin colour. what Gwlad needs to take into consideration is the development of players from early childhood and throughout the Rugby education that occurs in New Zealand, how we are taught to have total belief in our skills and the many other parts to New Zealand rugby that doesnt occur elsewhere. the longer others think that New Zealands success is derived on the back of the number of Polynesians playing the game here, then the longer into the future the All Blacks will reign as the top team in the World.

Spot on.

Sport is interesting as a facet of culture. It is a means of resistance, of patriotic pride, of a great leveller. Often, for supporters, and often in the old colonial countries, it can be one of the few remaining cultural expressions of national or racial exceptionalism. It's why the England football team goes through boom and bust- so much of the nationalism that was extinguished during the decline of the Empire was grafted onto football, creating probably the best and most interesting club football culture in the world, such is the 'healthy' partisan competitiveness and localism in the country. However, that idea of excellence flies in the face of reason when- having steam rolled the powers of Azerbaijan and San Marino in the qualifiers- they come up against the produce of superior footballing academies from the likes of Spain, Germany, Netherlands, Italy etc. To make matters worse, this fragile self-belief/delusion also means they then bottle it against the likes of Iceland.

New Zealand, however, are so successful- and have been so dominant in one sport that, albeit not played globally, is popular enough for this dominance to not be mere chance- that surely anyone coming to a conclusion other than 'New Zealand have clearly got their development right' is a fool or a bigot. Race probably helps New Zealand in that, if you're a skinny white boy, it probably helps tackling the Polynesian boys when you're growing up. Equally, by grouping kids by weight, it means you don't have the token early developer dominating rugby games to the detriment of all the childrens' skills, both the ball carrying 6ft 13 year old, and the 15 children trying and failing to tackle him.

I'd like to know quite how and why New Zealand are so successful, and in what ways their system cannot be replicated in Wales, because some things simply cannot cross that cultural divide. For two rugby cultures that seemed at one point very similar, and there is an affinity between their fans and players in a way that is quite uncommon for two lands half the world away from one another, I do think that Wales has gone away from many of the things that New Zealand has kept and maintained their success as a result. I really don't understand the bitterness or, frankly, trolling of New Zealanders on these grounds. We literally have no footing to do so: we can neither pretend we're culturally superior as we're so alike (sorry, England, but this is why you get most of the 'arrogant' tag from), and we certainly can't feel any sense of superiority for our performances on a Rugby field against NZ.

miaow wrote: I really don't understand the bitterness or, frankly, trolling

Oh come on you really do

Hammersmith harrier wrote:

Not grey and not a ghost wrote:Got me thinking, since the dawn of professionalism:
40 born and bred* New Zealanders have debuted for a home nation,
25 born and bred South Africans have debuted for a home nation,
12 born and bred Australians have debuted for a home nation,
4 born and bred Pacific Islanders have debuted for a home nation.
Have any born and bred home nations players debuted for any of the above teams in the last 21 years?

* A player who has moved to the representative nation at high school age or older

What nationality are we classing the Vunipola's as then?

They are Tongans not born there who play for England.

Not sure they are on the list as they moved to the UK at a pre school or primary school age. I'd have to look at the spreadsheet. The eldest might if I thought he moved to England at 13. Almost all the players listed moved to the UK to play rugby.

Gooseberry wrote:

miaow wrote: I really don't understand the bitterness or, frankly, trolling  

Oh come on you really do

Not really.

Good trolling generally gets under the skin as it pertains to a truth, often willfully ignored or unacknowledged by the people(s) being trolled. There's a big difference between that and the modern variety which, to me, just seems to be heavy handed meanness that suggests people have some sort of personality problem/being online brings out some of the worst aspects of human nature. Much can be said for the modern state of this 'new' trolling and the political and societal realities for the contemporary world.

So yes, I don't quite understand anyone Welsh winding up a New Zealander on a topic like this. Quite clearly, there's no foot to stand on, in relation to 'poaching' or 'leveraging' talent from the Pacific Islands (New Zealand included) and the benefit the 'poacher' then gives back. In short, it's weird, neither clever, funny, nor 'true' in any sense, and I don't get it.

miaow wrote:

Gooseberry wrote:

miaow wrote: I really don't understand the bitterness or, frankly, trolling  

Oh come on you really do

Not really.

Good trolling generally gets under the skin as it pertains to a truth, often willfully ignored or unacknowledged by the people(s) being trolled. There's a big difference between that and the modern variety which, to me, just seems to be heavy handed meanness that suggests people have some sort of personality problem/being online brings out some of the worst aspects of human nature. Much can be said for the modern state of this 'new' trolling and the political and societal realities for the contemporary world.

So yes, I don't quite understand anyone Welsh winding up a New Zealander on a topic like this. Quite clearly, there's no foot to stand on, in relation to 'poaching' or 'leveraging' talent from the Pacific Islands (New Zealand included) and the benefit the 'poacher' then gives back. In short, it's weird, neither clever, funny, nor 'true' in any sense, and I don't get it.

Much can be said for the modern state of this new trolling blah blah fookin blah, why use a few words when you can write an essay? I'd call that weird, not clever and definitely not funny. I don't get it?

I hope you appreciate the irony of your name, as you make it very hard for anyone to find any national fraternity and solidarity with you, Gwlad.

miaow wrote:I hope you appreciate the irony of your name, as you make it very hard for anyone to find any national fraternity and solidarity with you, Gwlad.

Oh bugger off you pretentious harpie.

Gwlad wrote:

miaow wrote:I hope you appreciate the irony of your name, as you make it very hard for anyone to find any national fraternity and solidarity with you, Gwlad.

Oh bugger off you pretentious harpie.

miaow wrote:being online brings out some of the worst aspects of human nature

That's a worrying sense of entitlement over this forum, Gwlad. Did mami not teach you to share?

Gwlad wrote:

miaow wrote:I hope you appreciate the irony of your name, as you make it very hard for anyone to find any national fraternity and solidarity with you, Gwlad.

Oh bugger off you pretentious harpie.

Stop the press but I agree with you.

miaow wrote:

Gwlad wrote:

miaow wrote:I hope you appreciate the irony of your name, as you make it very hard for anyone to find any national fraternity and solidarity with you, Gwlad.

Oh bugger off you pretentious harpie.

miaow wrote:being online brings out some of the worst aspects of human nature

That's a worrying sense of entitlement over this forum, Gwlad. Did mami not teach you to share?

Leave your mum out of this.

Hammersmith harrier wrote:

Gwlad wrote:

miaow wrote:I hope you appreciate the irony of your name, as you make it very hard for anyone to find any national fraternity and solidarity with you, Gwlad.

Oh bugger off you pretentious harpie.

Stop the press but I agree with you.

Careful that's 606 suicide.

But yes this guy has the soporific qualities of Ambien. Forget water boarding, just make the Guantanamo inmates join 606v2 and miaow will get all the forced confessions we need.

Come on Gwlad. Time to log off for a few days.

Very good miaow

Where is gwlad the cry baby nark

(that's not an insult is it?)

Congratulations miaow, you conveyed a sentiment without irrelevant verbiage, a first for you i'm sure.

Now, why don't you and ebop go %^&*( and #$%^&

(that's not an insult, its a request)

I read this week that as part of the duper 18 retrenchment, consideration was given to creating a stand alone Ozy/Kiwi provincial competition. Apparently the aru and the kiwi provinces plus the broadcaster were in favour but only the nzrfu were against and so the proposal stalled.

Its only a matter of time before the ozy debacle seismically restructures the game down south. Lets just hope that the Islands are given a better crack next time round instead of the usual commercial shagging.

Gwlad wrote:Congratulations miaow, you conveyed a sentiment without irrelevant verbiage

Yet more irony there, hopefully not lost on you, but I wouldn't count on it.

Genuinely, Gwlad. You're quickly becoming the new mikey.

Take a note out of his book and give the forum a break for a few weeks. It's embarrassing as well as annoying.

miaow wrote:

Gwlad wrote:Congratulations miaow, you conveyed a sentiment without irrelevant verbiage

Yet more irony there, hopefully not lost on you, but I wouldn't count on it.

Genuinely, Gwlad. You're quickly becoming the new mikey.

Take a note out of his book and give the forum a break for a few weeks. It's embarrassing as well as annoying.

what's embarrassing is your inability to recognize just how dull your essays are, but then you clearly rate your literary ability

and as for your invitation to leave, your arrogance is breathtaking, i suggest you take your own advice if you can't deal with it, do one.

Although you clearly think you own the forum, momma obviously didn't teach you to share. see ya

Gwlad wrote:you clearly think you own the forum, momma obviously didn't teach you to share. see ya

You really need to improve your trolling, Gwlad.

Repeating what someone has already said to you- in seriousness, and based on the fact that you're clearly investing a bit too much time and effort into winding people up on here- is the equivalent of "I know you are, I said you are, but what am I?" You know, the 'insult' of a child.

http://www.wikihow.com/Be-a-Troll

Come on, step up your game, now.

Gwlad wrote:

miaow wrote:

Gwlad wrote:Congratulations miaow, you conveyed a sentiment without irrelevant verbiage

Yet more irony there, hopefully not lost on you, but I wouldn't count on it.

Genuinely, Gwlad. You're quickly becoming the new mikey.

Take a note out of his book and give the forum a break for a few weeks. It's embarrassing as well as annoying.

what's embarrassing is your inability to recognize just how dull your essays are, but then you clearly rate your literary ability

and as for your invitation to leave, your arrogance is breathtaking, i suggest you take your own advice if you can't deal with it, do one.

Although you clearly think you own the forum, momma obviously didn't teach you to share. see ya

Well said Gwlad, I agree with everything you have written here. I don't know why he doesn't take his own advice but I suppose V2 needs a court jester; although saying that he isn't in the slightest bit funny. That's okay though as Jester's were stupid and un-funny right?

What makes me laugh about this menopausal cat is the fact that he's still here, still taking himself seriously with his snout remaining high in the sky, still writing his BS-snorefest posts after a number of posters have stated that they either don't like his comments or have put him on ignore. I think it's time someone took the hint don't you? (Don't answer that cat as I can't read it when you're on ignore - best thing I ever did.)

mikey_dragon wrote:

Gwlad wrote:

miaow wrote:

Gwlad wrote:Congratulations miaow, you conveyed a sentiment without irrelevant verbiage

Yet more irony there, hopefully not lost on you, but I wouldn't count on it.

Genuinely, Gwlad. You're quickly becoming the new mikey.

Take a note out of his book and give the forum a break for a few weeks. It's embarrassing as well as annoying.

what's embarrassing is your inability to recognize just how dull your essays are, but then you clearly rate your literary ability

and as for your invitation to leave, your arrogance is breathtaking, i suggest you take your own advice if you can't deal with it, do one.

Although you clearly think you own the forum, momma obviously didn't teach you to share. see ya

Well said Gwlad, I agree with everything you have written here. I don't know why he doesn't take his own advice but I suppose V2 needs a court jester; although saying that he isn't in the slightest bit funny. That's okay though as Jester's were stupid and un-funny right?

What makes me laugh about this menopausal cat is the fact that he's still here, still taking himself seriously with his snout remaining high in the sky, still writing his BS-snorefest posts after a number of posters have stated that they either don't like his comments or have put him on ignore. I think it's time someone took the hint don't you? (Don't answer that cat as I can't read it when you're on ignore - best thing I ever did.)

i was thinking more Impotent Cat.

Making friends boys, well done.

Misery loves company.

miaow wrote:Making friends boys, well done.

Misery loves company.

no one likes sour puss

Immigration largely comes into the Uk, though there are examples of players who have gone to the Pacific and been asked about playing for New Zealand. Martin Johnson played for New Zealand U21. David Llewellyn was asked about his availability for the All Blacks. Rhys Llewellyn was born in Bridgend, and started with the Ospreys academy, he played centre for New Zealand U20 when they beat Wales 92-0 a few years ago, and locked himself to New Zealand by playing for their 7's team.
In a cosmopolitan world players will have multiple choices of countries to play for. Look at the overlap between Wales and England. 25% of people living in Wales and English, while by 2070 there will be more English people living in Wales than Welsh people, according to the 2014 report by the ONS of immigration into Wales. Races are breeding into each other.

Shifty wrote:Immigration largely comes into the Uk, though there are examples of players who have gone to the Pacific and been asked about playing for New Zealand.  Martin Johnson played for New Zealand U21.   David Llewellyn was asked about his availability for the All Blacks.  Rhys Llewellyn was born in Bridgend, and started with the Ospreys academy, he played centre for New Zealand U20 when they beat Wales 92-0 a few years ago, and locked himself to New Zealand by playing for their 7's team.  
In a cosmopolitan world players will have multiple choices of countries to play for.  Look at the overlap between Wales and England.  25% of people living in Wales and English, while by 2070 there will be more English people living in Wales than Welsh people, according to the 2014 report by the ONS of immigration into Wales.  Races are breeding into each other.  

Yes that's a good point. Fact is the invention of the aeroplane makes our world so much smaller. Extending that further the concept of 'nation' or 'country' is fast becoming an outdated one. Fact is, people are now moving to where they think they'll have a better life, regardless of borders, language, religion or belief systems.

The expense we go to in managing our borders both internally and externally is rapidly becoming a huge overhead. The John Lennon Imagine version of no countries appeals more now simply in an economic rather than just an idealistic, peace on earth love thy neighbour blah blah sense.

National identity was great while it lasted but it will eventually erode when we realise we actually are all one, that our resources are better shared. Greed will still exist, wars will still happen, and rugby tests will still be played, but just perhaps not under the banners of a national 'flag', at least if we're that mature.

Brexit