England tour to Argentina

First topic message reminder :

It has been touched on in other threads but thought it was worth its own post.  
With the Lions touring to NZ there will be an opportunity for EJ to test some fresh talent.  Who would you like to see?

Interesting fact...the last time Wade was capped was the last tour to Argentina when he was also called into the Lions.
Clifford is now ruled out as having shoulder surgery - http://www.quins.co.uk/news/jack-clifford-injury-update/

I am working on the assumption that Lions call ups will be - Hartley, George, Cole, Itoje, Lawes, Mako V, Billy V, Launchbury, Youngs, Farrell, Joseph, Watson, Daly, Haskell, Brown......(there will be others I am sure and possibly some of these wont go).

But on that assumption and picking 2 in each position I would think that the tour selection group could be something like this - (from EPS and Saxons)
1. Marler, Genge
2. Taylor, LCD
3. Sinkler, Catt (not sure if he is TH or LH)
4. Kruis, Attwood
5. Ewels , ?
6. Robshaw, D.Armond
7. T.Harrison, T.Wood
8. Hughes, J.Chisholm
9. Care, Robson
10. Ford, Slade
11.J.May, Rokko
12.Ben Teo, ?
13.? ?
14.Yarde, Wade
15.Lozowski, Goode

Those are the chaps that I can think of from the current EPS and Saxons - There are a number that I am sure wont be included and a number from outside the squads that might have a run.
Guys like Solomona have been mentioned, Underhill, Beaumont, youngsters from U20s - Malinder, Marchant,
Who is a good option for 13?

UPDATED WITH SELECTED SQUAD -
Forwards
Will Collier (Harlequins, uncapped)
Luke Cowan-Dickie (Exeter Chiefs, 4 caps)
Ben Curry (Sale Sharks, uncapped)
Tom Curry (Sale Sharks, uncapped)
Charlie Ewels (Bath Rugby, 3 caps)
Ellis Genge (Leicester Tigers, 1 cap)
Dylan Hartley – captain (Northampton Saints, 84 caps)
James Haskell (Wasps, 75 caps)
Paul Hill (Northampton Saints, 5 caps)
Nathan Hughes (Wasps, 8 caps)
Nick Isiekwe (Saracens, uncapped)
Joe Launchbury (Wasps, 42 caps)
Matt Mullan (Wasps, 15 caps)
Chris Robshaw (Harlequins, 55 caps)
Sam Underhill (Ospreys/Bath Rugby, uncapped)
Harry Williams (Exeter Chiefs, uncapped)
Tom Wood (Northampton Saints, 50 caps)

Backs
Mike Brown – vice-captain (Harlequins, 60 caps)
Danny Care – vice captain (Harlequins, 71 caps)
Joe Cokanasiga (London Irish, uncapped)
Nathan Earle (Saracens, uncapped)
George Ford – vice captain (Bath Rugby, 35 caps)
Piers Francis (Auckland Blues/Northampton Saints, uncapped)
Sam James (Sale Sharks, uncapped)
Alex Lozowski (Saracens, uncapped)
Harry Mallinder (Northampton Saints, uncapped)
Joe Marchant (Harlequins, uncapped)
Jack Maunder (Exeter Chiefs, uncapped)
Jonny May (Gloucester Rugby, 25 caps)
Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs, 4 caps)
Denny Solomona (Sale Sharks, uncapped)

Unavailable for selection due to injury
Jack Clifford (Harlequins)
Sam Jones (Wasps)

England’s two-Test tour to Argentina
Estadio San Juan del Bicentenario, San Juan, Kick-off 16:15 (local time), Saturday 10th June
Estadio Brigadier General Estanislao Lopez, Santa Fe. Kick-off 16:15 (local time), Saturday 17th June

I don't care if he's exciting. He shouldn't be playing...like Nathan Hughes shouldn't be.

Wade is exciting! Id be more than happy to have him.

What other wingers are there in the prem?
James Short at Exeter? Been playing well.

Always impressed by Short actually. Not sure why he's never discussed.

Hes a strong lad, fast, scores tries for them having a good season.

How has young Packman gone on the wing for Saints? One of my mates is a Saints season ticket holder and said to watch out for him.

GeordieFalcon wrote:How has young Packman gone on the wing for Saints? One of my mates is a Saints season ticket holder and said to watch out for him.

Hasn't played. EDIT: apparently played you in the LV, and I can't really remember the game.

I thought he had got about 7 run outs? Must be mistaken.

Ok back to the props....

What EQ TH's are there?

Can only think of the Saints guys (Catt in OP is LH). Hill has only had 20-25 minutes per game this season.

Maybe Eddie can get Brookes into shape, that would be nice. Can't see him going as is.

Ok here is a rough list....

Wasps: Cooper-Woolley
Exeter: Rimmer, Williams
Saracens: Du Plessis
Leicester: Bateman, Balmain
Bath: Lahiff, Thomas
Northampton: Brookes, Hill
Quins: Collier,
Gloucester: PDJ
Newcastle: Davy Wilson, Scotty Wilson
Sale: Harrison
Worcester: Alo 1
Bristol: Ford-Robinson - is he LH or TH?

I think Ford-Robinson switches but is mainly LH - signed to replace Ethan Waller.

Ah right...so he's off the list for the moment.

Gooseberry wrote:

robbo277 wrote:

Gooseberry wrote:

robbo277 wrote:Marler, Mako, George, Cole, Sinckler, Itoje, Kruis, Lawes, Billy, Youngs, Farrell, Te'o, Joseph, Daly, Nowell and Watson all unavaiable. That's 16, but doubling up on props, an extra lock and leaving us with our flankers.

Of those who featured heavily in the Six Nations and previously, Hartley, Launchbury, Robshaw, Haskell, Hughes, Care, Ford, May and Brown are all available.

Right yeah turns out there was plenty of bum steers in the leaked squad but it was still broadly correct.
I doubt Jones expected to be missing Teo, and Mays selection was borderline. Whichever locks went there would be someone missing out, but Im surprised to see it being Lawes and Kruis who got the nod. Itoje was a no brainer but
People may well prefer George as a player but its still a big call to snub Hartley. Its just one of those things that can easily get thrown back in a coaches face down the line. Instead hes gone for experience and leaders through the rest of the squad. It may prove to be divisive to have both Welsh capatins in the side but lets see.

For England it leaves the anticipated issue of pretty much having to play Brown because of a complete lack of experience elsewhere in the outside backs when full back was the one position Jones might have wanted to experiment with. Losing his first 3 wings and first 3 OC is certainly A THING.

I think it will depend on whether he wants Daly or Watson at full back long-term, or somewhere else (e.g. Haley).

He has the option in the latter scenario of playing Brown on the wing and Haley at full-back, which would be adequate on such a tour. With Daly, Watson and Nowell to come back we don't need to have a good look at new wingers, unless there's an outstanding candidate to check out (and I don't believe there is?)

The back-line I've just scribbled down is Care, Ford, Brown, Slade, Marchant, May, Haley, with Robson, Lozowksi and Wade on the bench. Certainly an option, would let us look at Slade, Marchant and Haley while giving an experienced core.

Personaly I dont think Brown was a good enough wing to play wing back when he was getting picked as a wing in his prime because there was a better fullback (although I woudlve argued he wouldve made a wing than Brown did and vice versa) and a lack of decent wings available. Now according to OPINION Brown has lost a yard of pace I see him as even less of a wing than when he was a wing.

Either way its sub-optimal to be selecting Brown just because.

It would be more for his experience than anything. With 4 players missing (Farrell, Joseph, Daly and Watson) and two sure-fire replacements (Te'o and Nowell), we're starting to look a little bare-bones in the backs, certainly in terms of Internationally experienced options.

I guess it depends what he wants to do in the Autumn. If he wants to start any of Brown, Daly or Watson at 15, he will start Brown against Argentina. But if he's serious about bringing Haley through, he has the option of moving Brown to the wing to help him out.

Davy and scotty Wilson are sick notes so they're out.

Surely that should be Balmain for Tigers - much as I like Bateman and think he does a good job, I don't think he's good enough to shift from hooker to tighthead!

Yes probably should be Balmain.

Big wrote:Surely that should be Balmain for Tigers - much as I like Bateman and think he does a good job, I don't think he's good enough to shift from hooker to tighthead!

Bateman has started a number of games at TH for us this season, certainly more than Balmain. However Bateman was really being used as an injury stopgap.

Scottrf wrote:Can only think of the Saints guys (Catt in OP is LH). Hill has only had 20-25 minutes per game this season.

Maybe Eddie can get Brookes into shape, that would be nice. Can't see him going as is.

I wonder if you don't get someone in on a short-term gig, almost a guaranteed two-cap wonder - similar to how Duncan Bell got capped in an autumn series a few years ago.

No, it's not ideal, but we're missing Cole and Sinckler and if Hill isn't ready for more than a bench spot it might be for the best?

We're blooding a loose head and a second row regardless of anything else, and it would be an opportunity missed not to look at a fresh face in the back row. Perhaps someone who will do a solid, if unspectacular job is all we can really ask.

Someone like Dave Wilson or Brookes who's been there before and will just anchor the set-piece? Petrus du Plessis is an interesting one - 35, uncapped and a residency qualifier, would he want to go? Would he be able to put in two decent 55 minute performances at International level?

A pal is suggesting Harry Williams of Exeter, the long haired lad. 6'4, 20st. Worth a shot.

LondonTiger wrote:

Big wrote:Surely that should be Balmain for Tigers - much as I like Bateman and think he does a good job, I don't think he's good enough to shift from hooker to tighthead!

Bateman has started a number of games at TH for us this season, certainly more than Balmain. However Bateman was really being used as an injury stopgap.

My gob is utterly smacked - how had I not noticed that?? I take back my comment then and feel a tad embarrassed.

It's completely up in the air, and I doubt many write-ups will focus on the performance of a relatively unknown tight head who is due to slide back into obscurity after the tour is over.

I think Genge, Ewels, Underhill, Slade and Marchant are now the ones we'll be looking at with great interest, we need our experienced guys around them and then just whoever is left to stand in and make up the numbers.

Does any one think that Marcus Watson will tour Argentina this summer.

Will be interesting what with so many first team players of with the Lions, just how many new players will be added to the squad. Couls we see some of the England Saxon players  maybe making a step up?

I cannot see Watson touring. He is primarily a winger and May, Yarde and Roku have all been in EJ squads, while the likes of Wade and sadly Solomona will be ahead of him too.

I know he played FB against Tigers at the weekend, but I would have thought that Jones will either take Brown and Haley, or if resting Brown look at others who he has mentioned as having teh skills to be a FB even if playing elsewhere (such as Slade, Mallinder and Lozowski)

Watson is a quality wing. Dissapointed hes going to Wasps.

GeordieFalcon wrote:Watson is a quality wing. Dissapointed hes going to Wasps.

Not doubting that GF, just feel he is too far down the queue in EJs mind.

robbo277 wrote:It's completely up in the air, and I doubt many write-ups will focus on the performance of a relatively unknown tight head who is due to slide back into obscurity after the tour is over.

I think Genge, Ewels, Underhill, Slade and Marchant are now the ones we'll be looking at with great interest, we need our experienced guys around them and then just whoever is left to stand in and make up the numbers.

Will he slide back? Cole is the established senior TH. Sinkler apparently the next in line.

After that though its wide open. A rampaging performance in a place renowned for scrummaging could put a player right in the mix to challenge.

Is this the end for Hartley then? Knowing Eddie he will pick him to demonstrate to Gats that he is his own man. Launchbury for tour skipper i reckon.

LondonTiger wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:Watson is a quality wing. Dissapointed hes going to Wasps.

Not doubting that GF, just feel he is too far down the queue in EJs mind.

True but Yarde and Roko don't seem to please him. Wade is a mystery and there are places up for grabs.

A strong attacking and defensive performance could elevate him above some of the current squad

That's the question isn't it? Does EJ rest his senior guys that are not on the Lions tour - do they stay fit and at home incase there is a call up. I assume that Gatland will let the players know if they are on the standby list.......

A squad of complete newbies would not do too well playing against a full strength Pumas side.

I don't feel that Ford is secure enough to carry a struggling national team, but guys like Hask, Robshaw, Brown and Care would provide ample experience.

Is Alex Goode going to come back into the frame?
Also, will EJ supplement his coaching team now Borthwick is on loan.

We'll find out tomorrow

GeordieFalcon wrote:

robbo277 wrote:It's completely up in the air, and I doubt many write-ups will focus on the performance of a relatively unknown tight head who is due to slide back into obscurity after the tour is over.

I think Genge, Ewels, Underhill, Slade and Marchant are now the ones we'll be looking at with great interest, we need our experienced guys around them and then just whoever is left to stand in and make up the numbers.

Will he slide back? Cole is the established senior TH. Sinkler apparently the next in line.

After that though its wide open. A rampaging performance in a place renowned for scrummaging could put a player right in the mix to challenge.

I just don't think there is the quality of player at tight-head for it to happen. Contrast with the names I mentioned in other positions, where the guys left behind would be pushing anyway.

propdavid_london wrote:That's the question isn't it? Does EJ rest his senior guys that are not on the Lions tour - do they stay fit and at home incase there is a call up.  I assume that Gatland will let the players know if they are on the standby list.......

A squad of complete newbies would not do too well playing against a full strength Pumas side.  

I don't feel that Ford is secure enough to carry a struggling national team, but guys like Hask, Robshaw, Brown and Care would provide ample experience.  

Is Alex Goode going to come back into the frame?  
Also, will EJ supplement his coaching team now Borthwick is on loan.

He often brings in coaching consultants on one-offs, and I wouldn't be surprised if he brought a forward in for the tour to do a bit of work. I think it will be important for the existing coaches to fill the void as much as possible so they stay "on message".

As GF said, we will find out tomorrow I am sure.
Its good that we can still talk about a relatively strong looking side following on from the Lions selection.

I do hope that there will be some new blood selected and given an opportunity.

Would be good to see what all the hype is about on Underhill.
I say Solomona, if qualified then give him a run.
Wade - it has to be now or never.
Marchant, don't think he is ready but again could go for experience (not a lot of other candidates for 13)
Even take some of the youngsters on tour for the experience - The Curry twins etc. Anyone else that stood out for the U20s.

1 game against the BaaBaas on the 28th May, then 2 test matches in Argentina......shame there aren't more matches scheduled out in Argentina - like a game against the Jaguares or Argentina A's (probably would be the same team).

I'd like to see someone like Max Malins at 10 with Slade at 12 with perhaps Robson at 9? Marchant at 13 with something like May and Wade on the wings for speed and creativity and Haley at FB. It would be a very inexperienced backline but great potential.

Think it's extremely unlikely but I can dream!!

propdavid_london wrote:
1 game against the BaaBaas on the 28th May, then 2 test matches in Argentina......shame there aren't more matches scheduled out in Argentina - like a game against the Jaguares or Argentina A's (probably would be the same team).  

It would have to be Jaguares A team, seeing as the first team would be playing in the tests.

Mr Bounce wrote:I'd like to see someone like Max Malins at 10 with Slade at 12 with perhaps Robson at 9? Marchant at 13 with something like May and Wade on the wings for speed and creativity and Haley at FB. It would be a very inexperienced backline but great potential.

Think it's extremely unlikely but I can dream!!

Malins is with the U20 side and he's nowhere near ready for a game like this, especially with Ford available.

GeordieFalcon wrote:A pal is suggesting Harry Williams of Exeter, the long haired lad. 6'4, 20st. Worth a shot.

He's 25/26 and he knows how to scrum and maul. Would be a good shout to give Hill a run for his money. Brookes or Cooper-Woolley would just be squad filler.

I hope we see Sam James in the centres. He's young, big and has enough skills to play flyhalf at HEC and AP level for Sale. Consistently good for Sale.

Forwards
Will Collier (Harlequins, uncapped)
Luke Cowan-Dickie (Exeter Chiefs, 4 caps)
Ben Curry (Sale Sharks, uncapped)
Tom Curry (Sale Sharks, uncapped)
Charlie Ewels (Bath Rugby, 3 caps)
Ellis Genge (Leicester Tigers, 1 cap)
Dylan Hartley – captain (Northampton Saints, 84 caps)
James Haskell (Wasps, 75 caps)
Paul Hill (Northampton Saints, 5 caps)
Nathan Hughes (Wasps, 8 caps)
Nick Isiekwe (Saracens, uncapped)
Joe Launchbury (Wasps, 42 caps)
Matt Mullan (Wasps, 15 caps)
Chris Robshaw (Harlequins, 55 caps)
Sam Underhill (Ospreys/Bath Rugby, uncapped)
Harry Williams (Exeter Chiefs, uncapped)
Tom Wood (Northampton Saints, 50 caps)

Backs
Mike Brown – vice-captain (Harlequins, 60 caps)
Danny Care – vice captain (Harlequins, 71 caps)
Joe Cokanasiga (London Irish, uncapped)
Nathan Earle (Saracens, uncapped)
George Ford – vice captain (Bath Rugby, 35 caps)
Piers Francis (Auckland Blues/Northampton Saints, uncapped)
Sam James (Sale Sharks, uncapped)
Alex Lozowski (Saracens, uncapped)
Harry Mallinder (Northampton Saints, uncapped)
Joe Marchant (Harlequins, uncapped)
Jack Maunder (Exeter Chiefs, uncapped)
Jonny May (Gloucester Rugby, 25 caps)
Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs, 4 caps)
Denny Solomona (Sale Sharks, uncapped)

Unavailable for selection due to injury
Jack Clifford (Harlequins)
Sam Jones (Wasps)

England’s two-Test tour to Argentina
Estadio San Juan del Bicentenario, San Juan, Kick-off 16:15 (local time), Saturday 10th June
Estadio Brigadier General Estanislao Lopez, Santa Fe. Kick-off 16:15 (local time), Saturday 17th June

Piers Francis (Auckland Blues/Northampton Saints, uncapped)????

Great for the Currys, Maunder, Isiekwe, Marchant, Cockanasinga and Maunder

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/39331568

Some big calls there.

Interested to see the Curry twins. Would have preferred them to go to the JWC - but perhaps they would have been bench options there?
Joe Cokanasiga another interesting one, especially as along with Earle and Solomona selected means no room for Yarde, Wade or Roku.
and finally Jack Maunder as the reserve scrum half.

propdavid_london wrote:Piers Francis (Auckland Blues/Northampton Saints, uncapped)????

Great for the Currys, Maunder, Isiekwe, Marchant, Cockanasinga and Maunder

Just googled him, 26 years old, English born, Sarries academy, moved to NZ at 18, came to Edinburgh, moved back to NZ and is now on his way back to England. If you didn't think Cipriani's England career was over before...

Still trying to analyse this squad to decide whether I'm happy - there's a lot to take in!

Looking at the forwards its perhaps as well Hartley was left there. The tight 5 are massively lacking in experience ...losing your first 4 props is going to hit any team hard.

Woods perhaps a surprise tourist, especially given that Haskell and Robshaw are both available. Maybe Jones isnt quite as ready to write him off or show faith in the kids who have let him down before as the internet is. Im happy to see that core proven back row (and Launchberry) though, Argentina must be looking at taking Englands pack on.

Geordie will flip a lid when he sees the backs.

15 uncapped players and most of them from outside the training squads.

If Argentina turn up they shoudl fancy a result. Its hard to know if they will though.

Piers Francis certainly a surprise. Apparently been good for Blues but mainly at centre, wants to be a 10.

Didn't think Brookes would be in good enough shape for EJ.

Really can't call who will start at centre. The backs in general are 'interesting'.

Possible lineup:

Genge, Hartley, Hill, Launchbury, Ewells, Robshaw, Haskell, Hughes, Care, Ford, May, Slade, James, Solomona, Brown

LCD, Mullan, Williams, Isiekwe, Underhill/Wood, Maunder, Lozowski, Mallinder

Surprised at no Robson/Simpson.....Maunder deserves a shot with the other youngsters though.

Yeah, massive Cipriani snub (Cips will probably play for the BaaBaas - same as Slade did when he missed out on selection a few years back).
As you say, Yarde/Rokko/Wade all snubbed too.
Brookes is not selected (no surprise there)
T.Harrison - run out of chances it seems
Only 1 No.8 in the squad - does that mean Haskell covers?

Wood and Haskell have both covered 8 before haven't they?

Interesting selection with plenty of promise. I'd echo the surprise at no Robson. Really don't get why he isn't being given a chance.

Yeah, surprised not to see Robson too.

What's happened to Ben Spencer?

HIs box kicking I'm guessing. That and he really needs more game time. To me similar to Lozowski who looked good but didn't get game time due to a very good 10 who never got picked fir england so got scraps.

So this is what I've got, a starting pack of; Mullan/Genge, Hartley, Collier/Hill, Launchbury, Ewels, Robshaw, Haskell, Hughes; with Genge/Mullan, Cowan-Dickie, Hill/Collier and Underhill on the bench.

That leaves us with: Williams (prop), Isiekwe (lock), Wood and 2 Currys (all flankers). Looking at the 12 already selected, we're missing a third lock so Isiekwe should come straight onto the bench. It also doesn't leave us very much cover if Launchbury gets a late call to the Lions.

Is Williams a loosehead or a tighthead? He could come in for Collier I suppose, but the other 3 props I think will be involved.

And then we're laden with back row cover. Is there an injury doubt over Haskell and his foot? Because there's not much reason to take Wood otherwise. Maybe he intends to replace an injured Haskell with another lock?

I don't understand why the Curry's have been selected and Mercer has been left with the Under 20s. I would have left them all in the Under 20s, but we're a little light at 8 if anything.

Onto the backs, and I've got a backline of; Care, Ford, May, Slade, James/Marchant, Solomona, Brown; with a bench of Maunder, Lozowski and Marchant/James on the bench.

That leaves us with Francis (12/10), Mallinder (12), Earle and Cokanasiga (both wings). A lot of the backs have a "let's have a look" vibe about their selection, but there's no nailed on selections at 13, 14 or 23 (he may even go 6 forwards), so it's hard to tell too much this far out.

I don't like that Under 20s are being stripped away from the JWC to (probably not) play in Argentina, and think they'd benefit more from going to the JWC. We could get place-fillers in to hold the tackle shields. Perhaps Attwood, Barrow and Morgan in for the Isiekwe and the two Curry's and Haley in for Cokanasiga - moves which would also redress the balance of the squad.

But Eddie Jones is a law unto himself, and if he comes back with a 2-0 series win and a couple more finds, who are we to complain?

Underhill and Slade are two I'd love to see shine as they can break into the regular matchday 23 for the autumn. I also think Genge and Marchant are precocious talents and it would be good to see them put a marker down for the returning Lions.

mid_gen wrote:Wood and Haskell have both covered 8 before haven't they?

Yeah going back both have bene touted as permanent long term 8s but bneither has been close for some time. Haskell had a stint with England there but was generally considered to be a square peg in a round hole.

Hughes is pretty much a given to start there, Haskell I assume offering cover as suggested. It does suggest a worrying lack of depth, albeit with the 3rd choice injured.

Cips I dont see as a massive snub ... Lokowski or however its spelt this week has been ahead of him, Ford is obviuous number one, and slade offers cover. Just no room for him.

Wade Yarde and Roko all have their fans and detractors but yeah it is fair to say that its a surprise none of them made teh squad when there first 3 wingers didnt. Unltimately we are talking about 5th/6th choice though so meh.