England tour to Argentina

First topic message reminder :

It has been touched on in other threads but thought it was worth its own post.  
With the Lions touring to NZ there will be an opportunity for EJ to test some fresh talent.  Who would you like to see?

Interesting fact...the last time Wade was capped was the last tour to Argentina when he was also called into the Lions.
Clifford is now ruled out as having shoulder surgery - http://www.quins.co.uk/news/jack-clifford-injury-update/

I am working on the assumption that Lions call ups will be - Hartley, George, Cole, Itoje, Lawes, Mako V, Billy V, Launchbury, Youngs, Farrell, Joseph, Watson, Daly, Haskell, Brown......(there will be others I am sure and possibly some of these wont go).

But on that assumption and picking 2 in each position I would think that the tour selection group could be something like this - (from EPS and Saxons)
1. Marler, Genge
2. Taylor, LCD
3. Sinkler, Catt (not sure if he is TH or LH)
4. Kruis, Attwood
5. Ewels , ?
6. Robshaw, D.Armond
7. T.Harrison, T.Wood
8. Hughes, J.Chisholm
9. Care, Robson
10. Ford, Slade
11.J.May, Rokko
12.Ben Teo, ?
13.? ?
14.Yarde, Wade
15.Lozowski, Goode

Those are the chaps that I can think of from the current EPS and Saxons - There are a number that I am sure wont be included and a number from outside the squads that might have a run.
Guys like Solomona have been mentioned, Underhill, Beaumont, youngsters from U20s - Malinder, Marchant,
Who is a good option for 13?

UPDATED WITH SELECTED SQUAD -
Forwards
Will Collier (Harlequins, uncapped)
Luke Cowan-Dickie (Exeter Chiefs, 4 caps)
Ben Curry (Sale Sharks, uncapped)
Tom Curry (Sale Sharks, uncapped)
Charlie Ewels (Bath Rugby, 3 caps)
Ellis Genge (Leicester Tigers, 1 cap)
Dylan Hartley – captain (Northampton Saints, 84 caps)
James Haskell (Wasps, 75 caps)
Paul Hill (Northampton Saints, 5 caps)
Nathan Hughes (Wasps, 8 caps)
Nick Isiekwe (Saracens, uncapped)
Joe Launchbury (Wasps, 42 caps)
Matt Mullan (Wasps, 15 caps)
Chris Robshaw (Harlequins, 55 caps)
Sam Underhill (Ospreys/Bath Rugby, uncapped)
Harry Williams (Exeter Chiefs, uncapped)
Tom Wood (Northampton Saints, 50 caps)

Backs
Mike Brown – vice-captain (Harlequins, 60 caps)
Danny Care – vice captain (Harlequins, 71 caps)
Joe Cokanasiga (London Irish, uncapped)
Nathan Earle (Saracens, uncapped)
George Ford – vice captain (Bath Rugby, 35 caps)
Piers Francis (Auckland Blues/Northampton Saints, uncapped)
Sam James (Sale Sharks, uncapped)
Alex Lozowski (Saracens, uncapped)
Harry Mallinder (Northampton Saints, uncapped)
Joe Marchant (Harlequins, uncapped)
Jack Maunder (Exeter Chiefs, uncapped)
Jonny May (Gloucester Rugby, 25 caps)
Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs, 4 caps)
Denny Solomona (Sale Sharks, uncapped)

Unavailable for selection due to injury
Jack Clifford (Harlequins)
Sam Jones (Wasps)

England’s two-Test tour to Argentina
Estadio San Juan del Bicentenario, San Juan, Kick-off 16:15 (local time), Saturday 10th June
Estadio Brigadier General Estanislao Lopez, Santa Fe. Kick-off 16:15 (local time), Saturday 17th June

Funnily enough I think that Saints-Sarries game had a big impact on some of the selections, Jones afterall went to the game.

Goode and Spencer didn't have good games, Earle and Isiekwe were solid, Lozowski played well (though I think he was likely to tour anyway).

H.Mallinder played well too.

Still some big shocks but I think it's great Jones is using this as a development tour.

What's the point of sticking with players like Cipriani and Yarde who simply aren't good enough? Better to go for youngsters IMO.

This isn't necessarily about the best players, it's about development.

If it was about just being better a lot of the youngsters wouldn't be picked.

mid_gen wrote:Wood and Haskell have both covered 8 before haven't they?

Wood has....badly.
I always used to think that Haskell would have made a better 8 than 6/7.

Well theres a few surprises there!!!

Harry Williams is in at TH. Thought he might be.

The Currys...not going to the JWC??
Piers Francis???!!!! Seriously!!

And yes inevitable but feckin Solomana!!!!!

So it'll be:

1 Genge
2Hartley
3 Williams
4 Launchbury
5 Ewells
6 Robshaw
7 Haskell
8 Hughes

9 Care
10 Ford
11 May
12 James
13 Marchant
14 Solomana
15 Brown

The other thought is that Lions standby list........call ups for Robshaw/Brown/Haskell/Launchbury would all have a massive impact on this squad.

Also, Prem Final on 27th May. BaaBaas game on 28th May.......Presume that the team will be selected from the squad above (- any players that are involved in final, could be Wasps/Chiefs/Tigers or Bath at this stage)

Piers Francis

robbo277 wrote:And then we're laden with back row cover. Is there an injury doubt over Haskell and his foot? Because there's not much reason to take Wood otherwise. Maybe he intends to replace an injured Haskell with another lock?

I guess Wood could also be covering one of our first choice flankers being jetted off to New Zealand. Still think we could do with another lock in there to cover Launchbury doing similar.

No Wade........

beshocked wrote:Funnily enough I think that Saints-Sarries game had a big impact on some of the selections, Jones afterall went to the game.

Goode and Spencer didn't have good games, Earle and Isiekwe were solid, Lozowski played well (though I think he was likely to tour anyway).

H.Mallinder played well too.

Still some big shocks but I think it's great Jones is using this as a development tour.

What's the point of sticking with players like Cipriani and Yarde who simply aren't good enough? Better to go for youngsters IMO.

This isn't necessarily about the best players, it's about development.

If it was about just being better a lot of the youngsters wouldn't be picked.

I think the key is to give players you want to look at an environment where it's conducive for them to show their talents. If Launchbury gets called to the Lions and Ewels gets injured, you could end up with Isiekwe and Haskell as your starting second row, or a jet-lagged Attwood getting changed on the plane and running onto the pitch.

Not good for the players involved or the players around them who suffer because of it.

I also think the JWC is a fantastic tournament and think where possible our young players should be playing in it. Only if they're good enough to get in the first team match day squad outright should they miss it.

I wonder who is seen as the back up 15 to Brown.

beshocked wrote:I wonder who is seen as the back up 15 to Brown.

I think it will be Slade if he's not picked to start at 12, or Lozowski if Slade is in at 12.

beshocked wrote:I wonder who is seen as the back up 15 to Brown.

EJ has spoken about the potential for Lozowski, Slade and Mallinder to play at 15

LondonTiger wrote:Mallinder to play at 15

Please god no, he's had a few games this year where he's missed over half his tackles.

Yeah, but typically full backs have to make the least tackles of all players on the pitch.

So 3 players who don't play often at 15 would be back up at 15.... okay....

Jones obviously doesn't think much of Haley or Goode. I do think Goode played himself off the plane vs Saints with poor efforts under the high ball.

Who is the back up to Ford then?

Are Mallinder,Slade and Lozowski just expected to slot in whatever position?

Were a lot of these kids eligible for the next JWC? How many of them are now too old to be involved?
Presumably the U20s coach would have fought his corner to take as strong a side to the JWC as possible. Perhaps one reason why Max Malins, Mercer etc have been left out....

LondonTiger wrote:Yeah, but typically full backs have to make the least tackles of all players on the pitch.

But the ones they have to make are the most important.

Ford/Brown are first choice 10/12
Lozowski is second choice 10
Slade is (probably) first choice 12

Mallinder, along with the Lozowski and Slade, offer versatility.


I guess that Nathan Earle should also be mentioned as possible cover. Did he not play Wing and FB for the U20s?

Out of those I'd probably be most interested by Lozowski at 15. Certainly played well there for Saracens earlier in the season.

Scottrf wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:Yeah, but typically full backs have to make the least tackles of all players on the pitch.

But the ones they have to make are the most important.

But often easier to make as more often than not a cover tackle. The kind of head to head tackles that Mallinder has been missing are rare at FB - and when the situation does arise the advantage is fully in the attackers hands.

All in all though it is hard to know what Jones wants at FB. He talks about Daly and Slade being suited there (and more recently Loz & Prince Harry) cites their ability with the boot, but has (almost) exclusively selected Brown who is a very different kind of player. Brown will play 160 minutes in the tests unless injured.

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:Piers Francis

Well he's the 7th or 8th best 10 in the NZ conference this season

I imagine Francis has been selected more as a 12/10 than a 10/12. He's looked handy when I've seen him.

To be honest I am surprised Earle is touring. Sure I think he's got more potential than some of the other wingers, think he's a better defender too but still...

Yes he can cover FB too.

Does anyone really want to see Lozowski,Slade or Mallinder at full back? I don't really.

Wouldn't surprise me if this is the team.

Genge
Hartley
Hill
Ewels
Launchbury
Robshaw
Haskell
Hughes

Care
Ford
May
Slade
Marchant
Solomona
Brown

Mullan
LCD
Collier
Isiekwe
Wood
Maunder
Lozowski
Earle

LondonTiger wrote:

Scottrf wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:Yeah, but typically full backs have to make the least tackles of all players on the pitch.

But the ones they have to make are the most important.

But often easier to make as more often than not a cover tackle. The kind of head to head tackles that Mallinder has been missing are rare at FB - and when the situation does arise the advantage is fully in the attackers hands.

All in all though it is hard to know what Jones wants at FB. He talks about Daly and Slade being suited there (and more recently Loz & Prince Harry) cites their ability with the boot, but has (almost) exclusively selected Brown who is a very different kind of player. Brown will play 160 minutes in the tests unless injured.

Agreed, and either he's backing Brown for at least another series, if not a full 12 months afterwards, or thinking about Daly or Watson shifting into the 15 shirt.

I imagine we'll see Williams start with Hill coming from the bench, similar situation to Hartley/George with Hill more impact.

I'm pretty sure Underhill will be in the matchday squad too, he's the guy I'm really looking forward to seeing against the physicality of the Argies.

Trying to second guess what EJ is thinking is beyond me. Yet I shall try. Perhaps by taking just one genuine FB he is sending a message that the spot is up for grabs, but no-one has done enough. That there is an opportunity come the new season for anyone, whether it be Daly, Watson, Lozowski, Slade etc etc to stake a claim. But that they have to rip the jersey from Mike Brown's snarling frame.

Isiekwe looks like another amazing Sarries lock coming through. Physical, good in the set peice and only 19/20??

Sgt_Pooly wrote:I imagine we'll see Williams start with Hill coming from the bench, similar situation to Hartley/George with Hill more impact.

I'm pretty sure Underhill will be in the matchday squad too, he's the guy I'm really looking forward to seeing against the physicality of the Argies.

Hill has been highly favoured by Jones, but it would be odd if he had more England starts than premiership ones in 16/17. My guess is that it is a position open for all 3 named THs.

I agree that Underhill will probably feature in the match day squads. Jones seems desperate to see what he can do so it would make sense to have him on the bench, with Wood providing cover for the starting position should someone be injured or called up to the Lions.

Another thing, just glancing over the OP, what about Beaumont? We have three locks and one number 8, surely he would be a decent shout to cover both spots, either in the wider squad or from the bench?

Obviously players will be added for the Barbarians squad with Premiership finalists missing, is there any scope to add anyone to the touring party?

Just realised from your other post Taylor isn't here also. For me he's a better bet than LCD though granted mot much between them.

Isiekwe is 19 today. Nice birthday present.

robbo277 wrote:Another thing, just glancing over the OP, what about Beaumont? We have three locks and one number 8, surely he would be a decent shout to cover both spots, either in the wider squad or from the bench?

Obviously players will be added for the Barbarians squad with Premiership finalists missing, is there any scope to add anyone to the touring party?

Beaumont is one of the big losers, who have been in EJ squads this season and do not go at all.

From memory this list is:

Catt, Taylor, Attwood*, Beaumont, Harrison, Williams, Robson, Yarde, Roku, Haley

I would imagine that there will be plenty of shuffling - especially for that BaaBaas game.

Remove Wasps players -
Launchbury, Haskell, Hughes, Mullan

Sarries -
Isikwe, Earle, Lozowski

Chiefs -
LCD, H.Williams, Maunder, Slade

Depending on the finalists, there will be a fair amount of shuffling, with extras coming in from outside the squad to cover.

Beaumont was also caught out with an untimely injury and missed the middle part of the season didn't he?

Hayley too was out for a massive chunk after last seasons SA'A's saxon tour.

propdavid_london wrote:Hayley too was out for a massive chunk after last seasons SA'A's saxon tour.

Still perhaps dissapointing for a guy who was in the frame. I getthe impression though that Jones doesnt pay massive attention to the Saxons.

LondonTiger wrote:

robbo277 wrote:Another thing, just glancing over the OP, what about Beaumont? We have three locks and one number 8, surely he would be a decent shout to cover both spots, either in the wider squad or from the bench?

Obviously players will be added for the Barbarians squad with Premiership finalists missing, is there any scope to add anyone to the touring party?

Beaumont is one of the big losers, who have been in EJ squads this season and do not go at all.

From memory this list is:

Catt, Taylor, Attwood*, Beaumont, Harrison, Williams, Robson, Yarde, Roku, Haley

That is a large number and they can't all be on the scrap-heap. Maybe he's saying to those guys "I've had a look at you, now I need to see more next season for your clubs".

Of course we can also take it that Jones really doesn't think much of this tour....

I am stunned by Wade and Taylor's omission. I can't think of a single good reason to leave them out.

Wade I think due to the amount of wingers already ahead of him plus his age. He's never threatened to break into jones' squad there's a good 3 or 4 guys who've shown they can play well for England plus solomona who has just become available. Do you for want of a better word waste the opportunity to look at the next batch?

No 7&1/2 wrote:Wade I think due to the amount of wingers already ahead of him plus his age. He's never threatened to break into jones' squad there's a good 3 or 4 guys who've shown they can play well for England plus solomona who has just become available. Do you for want of a better word waste the opportunity to look at the next batch?

I would have Wade over Solomona, I do not like Solomona playing for England at all. The cynic in me says this is just to get him capped before the 5 year residency rules come in.

Wade is 25, that isn't old. I get that Eddie Jones doesn't like him but I don't like the message it sends 'if I don't like you it doesn't matter what you do I will never pick you'.

I still can't believe Piers Francis, that ten thumbed imbecile, with feet like mishapen bananas who played a season at Edinburgh is going on tour with England and is considered a viable option at 10 with the player pool England has at it's disposal. It is truly remarkable.

Yeah he is average but he has played in NZ don't you know. England have a penchant for all things kiwi.

robbo277 wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:

robbo277 wrote:Another thing, just glancing over the OP, what about Beaumont? We have three locks and one number 8, surely he would be a decent shout to cover both spots, either in the wider squad or from the bench?

Obviously players will be added for the Barbarians squad with Premiership finalists missing, is there any scope to add anyone to the touring party?

Beaumont is one of the big losers, who have been in EJ squads this season and do not go at all.

From memory this list is:

Catt, Taylor, Attwood*, Beaumont, Harrison, Williams, Robson, Yarde, Roku, Haley

That is a large number and they can't all be on the scrap-heap. Maybe he's saying to those guys "I've had a look at you, now I need to see more next season for your clubs".

And add in Ewers (who's been there or thereabouts), Goode, Cipriani, Wade (as a fan favourite, even if not an Eddie Jones selection).

It's perhaps not the scrap heap for them, but certainly a suggestion that Jones doesn't see them as likely to be pushing for first choice status.

apologies if this has already been covered, but what channel will these games be on?

Solomona looks a bit special to me. As he qualifies jones has to look at him. Wades not past it just feel all the wingers ahead of him are a similar age slightly younger so without him suddenly improving he's not going to force his way in by simply waiting for the others to be dropped through them bring past it.

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:I still can't believe Piers Francis, that ten thumbed imbecile, with feet like mishapen bananas who played a season at Edinburgh is going on tour with England and is considered a viable option at 10 with the player pool England has at it's disposal. It is truly remarkable.

Who says he is? He's played a lot at 12 and the Blues is a higher standard than the AP, let alone the championship player picked.

robbo277 wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:

Scottrf wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:Yeah, but typically full backs have to make the least tackles of all players on the pitch.

But the ones they have to make are the most important.

But often easier to make as more often than not a cover tackle. The kind of head to head tackles that Mallinder has been missing are rare at FB - and when the situation does arise the advantage is fully in the attackers hands.

All in all though it is hard to know what Jones wants at FB. He talks about Daly and Slade being suited there (and more recently Loz & Prince Harry) cites their ability with the boot, but has (almost) exclusively selected Brown who is a very different kind of player. Brown will play 160 minutes in the tests unless injured.

Agreed, and either he's backing Brown for at least another series, if not a full 12 months afterwards, or thinking about Daly or Watson shifting into the 15 shirt.

I would have thought that he will start with Brown but probably look for an opportunity to sub him. If he doesn't try someone else on this tour, then when?

Scottrf wrote:

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:I still can't believe Piers Francis, that ten thumbed imbecile, with feet like mishapen bananas who played a season at Edinburgh is going on tour with England and is considered a viable option at 10 with the player pool England has at it's disposal. It is truly remarkable.

Who says he is? He's played a lot at 12 and the Blues is a higher standard than the AP, let alone the championship player picked.

Even at 12 he was honking! With the ammount of players England have, he is the best at their disposal?

Divoto or Hill at the chiefs?
Smith or Catchpole at the tigers?
Stevenson from the saints?

I'd be willing to bet half the bloody posters on here would do a better job than Francis!

In a similar vein to Beaumont I was surprised to see no Mike Williams. Perhaps a few players are having minor surgery or need some rest time at the end of the season and Jones has taken a view on these players and omitted them. He did with Marler the other year.

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:Even at 12 he was honking! With the ammount of players England have, he is the best at their disposal?

Divoto or Hill at the chiefs?
Smith or Catchpole at the tigers?
Stevenson from the saints?

I'd be willing to bet half the bloody posters on here would do a better job than Francis!

If he gets in the Blues team, safe to say he is better than he was at Edinburgh. Still very unexpected.

Stevenson has played about 1 game in the past 18 months.