England tour to Argentina

First topic message reminder :

It has been touched on in other threads but thought it was worth its own post.  
With the Lions touring to NZ there will be an opportunity for EJ to test some fresh talent.  Who would you like to see?

Interesting fact...the last time Wade was capped was the last tour to Argentina when he was also called into the Lions.
Clifford is now ruled out as having shoulder surgery - http://www.quins.co.uk/news/jack-clifford-injury-update/

I am working on the assumption that Lions call ups will be - Hartley, George, Cole, Itoje, Lawes, Mako V, Billy V, Launchbury, Youngs, Farrell, Joseph, Watson, Daly, Haskell, Brown......(there will be others I am sure and possibly some of these wont go).

But on that assumption and picking 2 in each position I would think that the tour selection group could be something like this - (from EPS and Saxons)
1. Marler, Genge
2. Taylor, LCD
3. Sinkler, Catt (not sure if he is TH or LH)
4. Kruis, Attwood
5. Ewels , ?
6. Robshaw, D.Armond
7. T.Harrison, T.Wood
8. Hughes, J.Chisholm
9. Care, Robson
10. Ford, Slade
11.J.May, Rokko
12.Ben Teo, ?
13.? ?
14.Yarde, Wade
15.Lozowski, Goode

Those are the chaps that I can think of from the current EPS and Saxons - There are a number that I am sure wont be included and a number from outside the squads that might have a run.
Guys like Solomona have been mentioned, Underhill, Beaumont, youngsters from U20s - Malinder, Marchant,
Who is a good option for 13?

UPDATED WITH SELECTED SQUAD -
Forwards
Will Collier (Harlequins, uncapped)
Luke Cowan-Dickie (Exeter Chiefs, 4 caps)
Ben Curry (Sale Sharks, uncapped)
Tom Curry (Sale Sharks, uncapped)
Charlie Ewels (Bath Rugby, 3 caps)
Ellis Genge (Leicester Tigers, 1 cap)
Dylan Hartley – captain (Northampton Saints, 84 caps)
James Haskell (Wasps, 75 caps)
Paul Hill (Northampton Saints, 5 caps)
Nathan Hughes (Wasps, 8 caps)
Nick Isiekwe (Saracens, uncapped)
Joe Launchbury (Wasps, 42 caps)
Matt Mullan (Wasps, 15 caps)
Chris Robshaw (Harlequins, 55 caps)
Sam Underhill (Ospreys/Bath Rugby, uncapped)
Harry Williams (Exeter Chiefs, uncapped)
Tom Wood (Northampton Saints, 50 caps)

Backs
Mike Brown – vice-captain (Harlequins, 60 caps)
Danny Care – vice captain (Harlequins, 71 caps)
Joe Cokanasiga (London Irish, uncapped)
Nathan Earle (Saracens, uncapped)
George Ford – vice captain (Bath Rugby, 35 caps)
Piers Francis (Auckland Blues/Northampton Saints, uncapped)
Sam James (Sale Sharks, uncapped)
Alex Lozowski (Saracens, uncapped)
Harry Mallinder (Northampton Saints, uncapped)
Joe Marchant (Harlequins, uncapped)
Jack Maunder (Exeter Chiefs, uncapped)
Jonny May (Gloucester Rugby, 25 caps)
Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs, 4 caps)
Denny Solomona (Sale Sharks, uncapped)

Unavailable for selection due to injury
Jack Clifford (Harlequins)
Sam Jones (Wasps)

England’s two-Test tour to Argentina
Estadio San Juan del Bicentenario, San Juan, Kick-off 16:15 (local time), Saturday 10th June
Estadio Brigadier General Estanislao Lopez, Santa Fe. Kick-off 16:15 (local time), Saturday 17th June

SecretFly wrote:Did he pick many for the Lions?  

Did they win the 4th place trophy that year?

Before you geographically challenged mutts get all worked up about Yorkshire, remember that there are THREE English counties further north than Yorkshire, and while I admire Scotland and the Scots I'm definitely English.

Of course its understandable given that half of you reckon Birmingham is North and Hadrian's Wall is the Anglo-Scottish Border.

TrailApe wrote:Before you geographically challenged mutts get all worked up about Yorkshire, remember that there are THREE English counties further north than Yorkshire, and while I admire Scotland and the Scots I'm definitely English.

Of course its understandable given that half of you reckon Birmingham is North and Hadrian's Wall is the Anglo-Scottish Border.

You're only saying that to keep your Lions hopes going.

Really looking forward to seeing what Underhill can bring. Flanker is a position where we have good solid individuals but currently nobody who is even approaching what you might call world class. Will be interesting to see if Underhill can take the first steps along a path that might lead there.

As a London Irish fan I am hugely excited about Joe Cokanasiga being selected. As DaveM said above he is most certainly a contender for the rawest player ever selected for England in the professional era, but bejayzus is he exciting. I fully appreciate the fact it's been at Championship level but he has scared the Poopie out of every team he's come up against so far. I will be fascinated to see how he goes, as London Scottish a the RAG to Argentina in Buenes Aires is a serious step up in levels.

TrailApe wrote:Before you geographically challenged mutts get all worked up about Yorkshire, remember that there are THREE English counties further north than Yorkshire, and while I admire Scotland and the Scots I'm definitely English.

Tyne and Wear is separate from Northumberland now (?) which would make 4.

You're only saying that to keep your Lions hopes going.

If you could get caps for getting blooted I'd be up there, however I'm near the end of my 50th decade and have the physical conditioning of Bagpuss.

In all honestly the nearer you get to the Anglo-Scottish Border the more 'English' people get.

Except for Berwick - weird bunch that lot, even sound like Scots.

Tyne and Wear is separate from Northumberland now (?) which would make 4.

I don't count those new entities (1974), although Newcastle was a County for a long time (1400's) before the Tyne & Wear and Cleveland shuffle.

The Cleveland Shuffle sounds like a dance.

Geographical musings aside, I'm really looking forward to this tour, just hoping sky doesn't nab it.

Why on earth is Christian Wade not touring with this group?? Such an awesome winger. I wish we could afford to ignore talent like that!!

So, here's what I think we'll see for the 1st Test against Argentina:

1.Genge 2.Hartley(c) 3.Hill 4.Launchbury 5.Ewels 6.Robshaw 7.Haskell 8.Hughes 9.Care 10.Ford 11.Solomona 12.Slade 13.Mallinder 14.May 15.Brown

Mallinder has never played 13, and kicks too much to be one IMO, especially with Slade inside.

Scottrf wrote:Mallinder has never played 13, and kicks too much to be one IMO, especially with Slade inside.

Fair enough - perhaps Mallinder at 12 with Slade at 13. It's a shame Manu isn't fit and firing, a Ford/Slade/Manu midfield would be really useful.

TrailApe wrote:Before you geographically challenged mutts get all worked up about Yorkshire, remember that there are THREE English counties further north than Yorkshire, and while I admire Scotland and the Scots I'm definitely English.

Of course its understandable given that half of you reckon Birmingham is North and Hadrian's Wall is the Anglo-Scottish Border.

My relatives think the "South" starts at Doncaster, so it works both ways.

The 'NORTH' is anything North of Oxford......Thank you and good night

funnyExiledScot wrote:

Scottrf wrote:Mallinder has never played 13, and kicks too much to be one IMO, especially with Slade inside.

Fair enough - perhaps Mallinder at 12 with Slade at 13. It's a shame Manu isn't fit and firing, a Ford/Slade/Manu midfield would be really useful.

Didn't he used to play rugby?

funnyExiledScot wrote:Why on earth is Christian Wade not touring with this group?? Such an awesome winger. I wish we could afford to ignore talent like that!!

So, here's what I think we'll see for the 1st Test against Argentina:

1.Genge 2.Hartley(c) 3.Hill 4.Launchbury 5.Ewels 6.Robshaw 7.Haskell 8.Hughes 9.Care 10.Ford 11.Solomona 12.Slade 13.Mallinder 14.May 15.Brown

Having taken 3 open side flankers aged 20 or less, and given Jones has been clear about the need for improvement in the backrow I would be surprised if he just reverted to Robshaw and Haskell at 6 and 7 - been there, done that. I would expect Underhill to start at 7. The backs look like a plausible selection except for Mallinder who has a lot of work to do before he can play in the centres for England - I think James will start at 13 (I reckon Ford, Slade, Marchant is probably too lightweight).

Recwatcher16 wrote:Yorkshire has a bigger population than Scotland !

After all the Lions hoopla - George Ford really has a clear run to further establish his England fly half credentials with a more traditional inside centre.
The bigger question is who will play 12 in Argentina and if it is Slade then Ford is in danger of not being able to move to a different style as Slade is more of a like for like with Farrell. When Sexton gets injured and Farrell & Teo have a succesful run at 10/12 for the Lions then Eddie Jones will have a decision to make.

Also looking forward to seeing Underhill get a run out. There seems to be a perception that England flankers are behind the Irish and Welsh versions, which not sure is the case at all but EJ does need some further options to the smash the breakdown approach offered by Haskell /Wood.

I think ford's days as England 10 are numbered. Lozowski bring lots of creativity and better defence and kicking (I think), and Farrell is a fantastic all-round FH. Watching Bath recently you can see how sides are targeting Ford - New Zealand will run over him all game long.

Ultimately England need Mallinder to step up at 12 - a player who can run, kick and pass. Farrell has done a decent job, but when the ball is slow he doesn't have the carrying game to get us going.

Surely he is giving the youngsters a chance to prove themselves in training with more senior chaps. If he feels they can hack it then they may well be given a shot.
Maunder, Mallinder, Currys Marchant all have prem experience and not looked too out of place.
Underhill I am sure EJ has kept an eye on - I've not seen too much of him so would like to see what all the fuss is about.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:It's news to me that Francis is eligible for England... is Eddie Jones in danger of becoming the next Andy Robinson?

Francis is 100% English but took the chance to play for Wales. Good luck to him, good player who will only improve.

Yorkshire isn't English...

Where would you suggest it is?

Scotland

I dare you to go to Yorkshire and start telling them they are Scottish and not English. See how well they take that.

*puts down the gravy on chips - smack* "How very dare you suggest that we only have two players in the Lions squad!"

I've known a Yorkshireman for many years and he has never bought a round!

TightHEAD wrote:I've known a Yorkshireman for many years and he has never bought a round!

bet its you

Rugby union should be a Gents game played in the South of England.

TightHEAD wrote:Rugby union should be a Gents game played in the South of England.

It is, unless you're a British Lion.

TightHEAD wrote:Rugby union should be a Gents game played in the South of England.

We may manage to get past the group stages of the WC if this was the case.

This is just great watching English rugby fans turn on their own Norfern scum.

Where's Cornwall again?

Squad makes perfect sense to me. He'll play a team in the test which is, bar Solomona, the best available to him.

He's trying to uncover talent on the wings, TH prop and especially fetchers so he's stocked the tour cupboard to give himself the best chance of doing that.

My guess is, if there are any injuries / Lions call ups, he'll add the known entities like Yarde, Taylor, Roko, Williams and it wouldn't surprise me if they were parachuted straight into the team. I don't think any of the real youngsters will get anywhere near the test team as Jones has already shown that caps have to earned the hard way.

1st Test

Mullen
Hartley
Hill
Ewels
Launchbury
Robshaw
Haskell
Hughes

Care
Ford
May
Lozowski
Slade
Solomona
Brown

LCD
Genge
Collier
Isiekwe
Underhill
Maunder
Francis
Earle

Then Underhill may get a run out second test. Maybe Francis or Sam James too.

Lozowski at 12?

Why not? His model is 2 playmakers. Lozowski is a good defender too.

Slade existing would be the main reason not to . Although Jones has found every excuse he can not to pick him so far.

Im not sure is physical enough for 12 tbh and cant recall him ever playing there.

Slade's a 10 right? Plays 13 too. anyway i saw him for England about 18 months ago i think before injury and think he is a class act that England should bring on, plays very flat superb passer of the ball, great hands and pace. Only player i ever saw sell a dummy with a through the legs pass.

He was a 10 for the U20 Wc winning side. Plays mostly 13 I think these days but could play 12. Went off the boil this last year but is picking up.

spaynter wrote:Why not? His model is 2 playmakers. Lozowski is a good defender too.

But it wouldn't be 2, it would be 3. I think that would be case of too many cooks. I think Slade is more likely to play 12 than Lozowski.

I don't think EJ has taken that many youngsters without a plan to expose some of them to Test rugby. Sure there are probably some who won't feature, but what will he learn by starting two tests with Robshaw, Haskell and Hughes, and with Ford starting both games? The Ireland game (and the generally disjointed performances throughout the 6 Nations) showed England still have a way to go, this is probably the only opportunity Jones will have between now and the WC to lay the groundwork to really move the team on. For instance, if he can find a high class wing then he can move Watson to FB in the next 6 Nations.

The one thing we do have is high class wings, Daly, Watson, Nowell, May, Roko, Yarde and a heap of others that are close. None of those have let England down, well maybe May, stupidly getting his nose broken and Daly with a single rush of stupidity. If EJ though Watson Daly or Nowell could better Brown, he would have played them there

Roko and Yarde have both been looked at and disgarded. EJ was quite explicit that Earle had been picked instead of Yarde, and had been picked on potential. Having a lot of decent wings to pick from isn't enough if we aspire to be the best in the world. At the moment we have Watson, Daly, Nowell and May in first team contention, but Daly won't stay on the wing and Watson is now playing regularly at FB for Bath again. Brown is clearly in decline - his performance for Quins vs Exeter was painful to watch and he was uninspiring during the 6 Nations. On the other hand Watson should be on a strong upward curve. Brown isn't making the next WC anyway so we have to replace him, and if we are to move Watson (or even Daly) then we need another top class option on the wing. Both Earle and Solomona look to have potential to be that player.

Roko got MOTM and was then dropped...

DaveM wrote:

Recwatcher16 wrote:Yorkshire has a bigger population than Scotland !

After all the Lions hoopla - George Ford really has a clear run to further establish his England fly half credentials with a more traditional inside centre.
The bigger question is who will play 12 in Argentina and if it is Slade then Ford is in danger of not being able to move to a different style as Slade is more of a like for like with Farrell. When Sexton gets injured and Farrell & Teo have a succesful run at 10/12 for the Lions then Eddie Jones will have a decision to make.

Also looking forward to seeing Underhill get a run out. There seems to be a perception that England flankers are behind the Irish and Welsh versions, which not sure is the case at all but EJ does need some further options to the smash the breakdown approach offered by Haskell /Wood.

I think ford's days as England 10 are numbered. Lozowski bring lots of creativity and better defence and kicking (I think), and Farrell is a fantastic all-round FH. Watching Bath recently you can see how sides are targeting Ford - New Zealand will run over him all game long.

Ultimately England need Mallinder to step up at 12 - a player who can run, kick and pass. Farrell has done a decent job, but when the ball is slow he doesn't have the carrying game to get us going.

Ford is the best midfield general England have by a country mile. His inability to grow past the size of an average 16 year old and kick goals reliably has given Eddie headaches. Eddie toyed with the idea of dropping him last season on the tour to Aus but then changed his mind after half an hour. 

Ford plays so flat in attack he pulls defences all over the place and has a great passing game. He decimated the Scotland midfield in the 6N and dragged a misfiring Bath team to victory over Tigers (Falatau getting man of the match was ridiculous).

Slade and Lozowski are much more physical but neither controls the game like Ford as shown by their clubs opting for different generals at 10 come the big games. Either could come I'm at 12 but with Harry Mallinder who you'd assume given his abilities is the obvious long term choice at 12 for England he just needs refine his his skills. I'm not sure what Eddie is going to go with.

Eddie's mind is starting to go. The eternal England curse is beginning to bite - too many sweets to choose from. Confusion will descend and cause mayhem soon.

Is Mallinder actually as good as the hype fkaS? I remain unconvinced he's not just a flat track bully who excelled in the age grades in part due to his physical attributes rather than technical abilities.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

Ford is the best midfield general England have by a country mile. His inability to grow past the size of an average 16 year old and kick goals reliably has given Eddie headaches. Eddie toyed with the idea of dropping him last season on the tour to Aus but then changed his mind after half an hour. 

Ford plays so flat in attack he pulls defences all over the place and has a great passing game. He decimated the Scotland midfield in the 6N and dragged a misfiring Bath team to victory over Tigers (Falatau getting man of the match was ridiculous).

Slade and Lozowski are much more physical but neither controls the game like Ford as shown by their clubs opting for different generals at 10 come the big games. Either could come I'm at 12 but with Harry Mallinder who you'd assume given his abilities is the obvious long term choice at 12 for England he just needs refine his his skills. I'm not sure what Eddie is going to go with.

Slade is not ready to play 10 for England - he may never be, we shall see. Lozowski is a lot closer I think. Ford was one of a number of players who played well against Scotland, but generally England struggled to impose themselves throughout the 6 Nations. However, the issue with Ford is not his ability to run an attack but rather the fact people are going to keep running at him, and in the end his defensive weaknesses (plus the fact Farrell is a fantastic FH) will outweigh Ford's clear strengths.

Mallinder has a wonderful off-load and pass, and he commits defenders because of his size. This has translated to the AP. He probably kicks are far as anyone from hand as well. The only thing holding him back is his defence. Hopefully this summer will see progress starting to be made.

Not only defence, decision making too. Tries to do too much himself. His kicking was incredibky inacccurate against Sarries too. He's onky 20 though so there's time.

Ozzy3213 wrote:Is Mallinder actually as good as the hype fkaS?  I remain unconvinced he's not just a flat track bully who excelled in the age grades in part due to his physical attributes rather than technical abilities.

Mallinder had struggled because of a shoulder problem, he had a glaringly weak shoulder which meant he struggled to tackle on one side and was slaughtered. He seems to have got that strength back and with that he should be able to start improving his overall positioning.

Physically he is big, quick and tall. His ability to throw massive passes and have a great range to his kicking game (including being able to kick like a cannon) make him a great base. He needs to develop on now and mixing with England will help that. Whether staying at Saints will help that I'm not sure, Twelvetrees chose badly in moving to Gloucester and fell off the England radar  (not that staying at Tigers would have been much better) but Mallinder needs to ensure he doesn't fall in to the same trap of being overly reliant on physical power and being able to pass big.

I'm hoping Wade will be winning the premiership final come the end May. If not he'll probably playing for the Barbarians with his poor defence on show to the world and his attacking ability there for all to see.

1.Mullan 2.Hartley 3.Hill 4.Launchbury 5.Ewels 6.Robshaw 7.Underhill 8.Hughes
9.Care 10.Ford 11.May 12.Slade 13.Marchant 14.Cokanasiga 15.Brown

16.LCD 17.Genge 18.Williams 19.Isiekwe 20.Haskell 21.Maunder 22.Lozowski 23.James

Something like that would be a good mix for the first test. Plenty of experience in the side for a 'Lions summer' but also a lot of young talent getting exposure.

Looks good but Denny on the wing.

Scottrf wrote:Looks good but Denny on the wing.

Two England wings may yet make the European final but neither be available for England - Ashton and Strettle. If Clermont go on to beat Leinster then Abendanon will be another player unavailable.

Actually, add Maitland and Goode, and there could be five back three players in the European Cup Final who have been overlooked for the Lions tour.

I actually think Gats has done Eddie a favor not picking Launchbury and Hartley as the Argies will be up for this tour.

Having both Robshaw and Haskell as options is huge for filtering younger back row players in as well. It means that Jones can partner hopefully Underhill with either of his starters and have strength on the bench too.

I think it also allow Jones to get a good close look at just how bad Haskells foot problem is.

Is it just minor... or is it actually a problem that really is affecting his work rate and more importantly his physicality. Because if you take out Haskells physicality, you pretty much make him ineffective.

I appreciate he was only just returning from injury in the 6n...but his performances were a shadow of those in Australia. (Most of the team were to be fair)