England tour to Argentina

First topic message reminder :

It has been touched on in other threads but thought it was worth its own post.  
With the Lions touring to NZ there will be an opportunity for EJ to test some fresh talent.  Who would you like to see?

Interesting fact...the last time Wade was capped was the last tour to Argentina when he was also called into the Lions.
Clifford is now ruled out as having shoulder surgery - http://www.quins.co.uk/news/jack-clifford-injury-update/

I am working on the assumption that Lions call ups will be - Hartley, George, Cole, Itoje, Lawes, Mako V, Billy V, Launchbury, Youngs, Farrell, Joseph, Watson, Daly, Haskell, Brown......(there will be others I am sure and possibly some of these wont go).

But on that assumption and picking 2 in each position I would think that the tour selection group could be something like this - (from EPS and Saxons)
1. Marler, Genge
2. Taylor, LCD
3. Sinkler, Catt (not sure if he is TH or LH)
4. Kruis, Attwood
5. Ewels , ?
6. Robshaw, D.Armond
7. T.Harrison, T.Wood
8. Hughes, J.Chisholm
9. Care, Robson
10. Ford, Slade
11.J.May, Rokko
12.Ben Teo, ?
13.? ?
14.Yarde, Wade
15.Lozowski, Goode

Those are the chaps that I can think of from the current EPS and Saxons - There are a number that I am sure wont be included and a number from outside the squads that might have a run.
Guys like Solomona have been mentioned, Underhill, Beaumont, youngsters from U20s - Malinder, Marchant,
Who is a good option for 13?

UPDATED WITH SELECTED SQUAD -
Forwards
Will Collier (Harlequins, uncapped)
Luke Cowan-Dickie (Exeter Chiefs, 4 caps)
Ben Curry (Sale Sharks, uncapped)
Tom Curry (Sale Sharks, uncapped)
Charlie Ewels (Bath Rugby, 3 caps)
Ellis Genge (Leicester Tigers, 1 cap)
Dylan Hartley – captain (Northampton Saints, 84 caps)
James Haskell (Wasps, 75 caps)
Paul Hill (Northampton Saints, 5 caps)
Nathan Hughes (Wasps, 8 caps)
Nick Isiekwe (Saracens, uncapped)
Joe Launchbury (Wasps, 42 caps)
Matt Mullan (Wasps, 15 caps)
Chris Robshaw (Harlequins, 55 caps)
Sam Underhill (Ospreys/Bath Rugby, uncapped)
Harry Williams (Exeter Chiefs, uncapped)
Tom Wood (Northampton Saints, 50 caps)

Backs
Mike Brown – vice-captain (Harlequins, 60 caps)
Danny Care – vice captain (Harlequins, 71 caps)
Joe Cokanasiga (London Irish, uncapped)
Nathan Earle (Saracens, uncapped)
George Ford – vice captain (Bath Rugby, 35 caps)
Piers Francis (Auckland Blues/Northampton Saints, uncapped)
Sam James (Sale Sharks, uncapped)
Alex Lozowski (Saracens, uncapped)
Harry Mallinder (Northampton Saints, uncapped)
Joe Marchant (Harlequins, uncapped)
Jack Maunder (Exeter Chiefs, uncapped)
Jonny May (Gloucester Rugby, 25 caps)
Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs, 4 caps)
Denny Solomona (Sale Sharks, uncapped)

Unavailable for selection due to injury
Jack Clifford (Harlequins)
Sam Jones (Wasps)

England’s two-Test tour to Argentina
Estadio San Juan del Bicentenario, San Juan, Kick-off 16:15 (local time), Saturday 10th June
Estadio Brigadier General Estanislao Lopez, Santa Fe. Kick-off 16:15 (local time), Saturday 17th June

GeordieFalcon wrote:I think it also allow Jones to get a good close look at just how bad Haskells foot problem is.

Is it just minor... or is it actually a problem that really is affecting his work rate and more importantly his physicality. Because if you take out Haskells physicality, you pretty much make him ineffective.

I appreciate he was only just returning from injury in the 6n...but his performances were a shadow of those in Australia. (Most of the team were to be fair)

The reason Haskell didn't look up to scratch in the 6N is because the pack struggled with three locks. We lacked mobility around the park and the lineout didn't really benefit. Two proper flankers in Robshaw and Haskell offered us a lot more in work rate and gave us much more of an edge in the loose.

Gwlad wrote:I actually think Gats has done Eddie a favor not picking Launchbury and Hartley as the Argies will be up for this tour.

Don't know, hooker and second row are areas of strength for England. When the reserve squad doesn't include Tommy Taylor and Dom Barrow I'd say we're in a good position.

formerly known as Sam wrote:....
The reason Haskell didn't look up to scratch in the 6N is because the pack struggled with three locks. We lacked mobility around the park and the lineout didn't really benefit. Two proper flankers in Robshaw and Haskell offered us a lot more in work rate and gave us much more of an edge in the loose.
...

Easy to forget how good he (almost) always is and how much he does to enable everybody else to do their thing. I don't think his presence would have been enough to beat Ireland on that day but at this moment there are probably only two (possibly 3) England players who, if uninjured and playing, could have made a difference, and he's at the top of the list. The other is Kruis and the 'possible' - because these days its only purely theoretical, would be Manu.

formerly known as Sam wrote:
The reason Haskell didn't look up to scratch in the 6N is because the pack struggled with three locks. We lacked mobility around the park and the lineout didn't really benefit. Two proper flankers in Robshaw and Haskell offered us a lot more in work rate and gave us much more of an edge in the loose.

Don't know, hooker and second row are areas of strength for England. When the reserve squad doesn't include Tommy Taylor and Dom Barrow I'd say we're in a good position.

Well ill be watching Haskells performance closely (mostly his physicality and mobility and work rate)

I agree about Taylor and Barrow.

Its clear from this squad that Jones doesn't rate many of the young generation...so he's elected to look further down the line and see if the even younger generation has EVEN more ability than the current Lions etc. He's said so himself!

For example - Our locks are amongst the best in the world and all fairly young. Barrow (or any of the current locks of his age group) are not likely to make a huge impression on the squad anytime soon, why bother taking him on tour! So Jones has taken this opportunity to look at the NEXT generation for the special ones. Sarries are raving about young Isiekwe (and they're a pretty good judge of players! ) so Jones is looking at him now. Cant argue with that.

Similar in the back row. Jones has his established back row players but he knows they aren't getting younger and the recent generation...Harrison, Clifford etc haven't done it (yet). So he's looking even further down the line at the Currys, Underhill etc.

How old is Underhill? Is he possibly a bit further along in the pecking order? With a bit more 1st team experience than some of the other youngsters.
I think I saw somewhere that Isiekwe has only recently had a start in the Sarries side.

RE: Clifford - seems to be plagued by pretty untimely injuries (don't think EJ has given up on him yet).
Harrison however it seems to be that he has properly missed out! However Wood has shown that EJ can change his mind if the situation dictates.

The lack of No.8 cover on tour does bother me though! And I am concerned that Wood will be asked to cover again!

Underhill is 20, Clifford is 24.

Harrison hasn't had loads of gametime. Louis at 8, and Mallinder seems to favour Gibson-Wood at 6 and 7 (which to me is two 6s).

Yeah Isiekwe started his first Saracens game in the prem last week against Saints. By all accounts had a very good game.

Saracens rate him as highly as Itoje...so that's a good benchmark for Jones and with his current stable of locks (Lawes, Launchbury, Itoje, Kruis, Ewells) why bother taking a player who isn't going to make an impression on them (Attwood, Barrow, Kitchener, Slater etc) when he can take a young lad whos potential looks through the roof, and can be managed correctly for the next few years.

GeordieFalcon wrote:Yeah Isiekwe started his first Saracens game in the prem last week against Saints. By all accounts had a very good game.

Saracens rate him as highly as Itoje...so that's a good benchmark for Jones and with his current stable of locks (Lawes, Launchbury, Itoje, Kruis, Ewells) why bother taking a player who isn't going to make an impression on them (Attwood, Barrow, Kitchener, Slater etc) when he can take a young lad whos potential looks through the roof, and can  be managed correctly for the next few years.

I think that's Eddie's philosophy in a nutshell.

He's got a squad who've won 17 out of 18 games under him, have gone to 2nd in the world rankings and have beaten everyone bar the All Blacks. Barring injury, all of them can be expected to make the next RWC.

He's shown a distinct two-track approach to his squads:
- The series squads are pragmatic: the core squad plus the next best players to cover injury and a couple of bolters who he judges to be ready
- The EPS is much more about development of the players he sees as long term options.

The Argentina tour is the only series in England's RWC cycle that blurs that a bit. The RWC seedings have been decided and a lot of his core squad are with the Lions, so it's the one series where winning is less important than learning about the players.

Exactly Poorfour.

And hes even said he hopes to discover some players on this tour who will be better than those away with the Lions this summer.

England are in a very strong position that's for sure. Very young Players like Daly and Sinkler etc will gain MASSIVE experience from the Lions tour...leaving Eddie to look at even younger players with huge potential.

And importantly for young players being incorporated in to the team, some his core players are still with the side for this tour (Haskell, Robshaw, Launchbury, Hartley, Care, Ford, Brown). So the kids come in, in a fairly settled team with experienced players.

"Eh yeah, Wozza mate. About Dylan, Joe and Chris. No, not that Joe, the tall one. You want to take the short one. He's quality. But the other three, mate, they're all a waste of air. I wouldn't take them to New Zealand if I were you. I mean, if you don't, I'll take them to Argentina with me, but only as ballast. Honest, mate. These aren't the players you're looking for. You don't need to see their performances. They can go on their way to Buenos Aires."

It's all starting to make sense.

Poorfour wrote:"Eh yeah, Wozza mate. About Dylan, Joe and Chris. No, not that Joe, the tall one. You want to take the short one. He's quality. But the other three, mate, they're all a waste of air. I wouldn't take them to New Zealand if I were you. I mean, if you don't, I'll take them to Argentina with me, but only as ballast. Honest, mate. These aren't the players you're looking for. You don't need to see their performances. They can go on their way to Buenos Aires."

It's all starting to make sense.

Yeah you could sort of see EJ slowly morphing into Yoda over a few years.

Morphing into Morph more like.

I'm not really sure he fancies this tour to be honest, only picking the experienced players so as to curry favour providing them a step off as Lions replacements.

The other selections are just a bit of a poke in the dark.

The truth will out with his autumn selection and only then will we be able to rest any nagging doubts.

Because we won't win the WC on the back of McCall's abilities alone.

Always feel a core of experience is best to judge newbies and help give them a bit of a foot hold tbh. Plenty of young talent will be going but the potential immediate impact of solomona and underhill is exciting.

I haven't seen Underhill though by all accounts he's worth his selection. As to the other newbies, well quite frankly its cods wallop.

Solomona is only there to take possession of his nationality regardless if he ever features again while other more serious options are being ignored.

The tour did have some reason to it, basically to see who else there is while the first choice are away being screwed by the Lions. But even that reason has been negated with the nature of these ridiculous selections.

A wasted opportunity that will come back to bite when the times comes.

Who are the crucial players missing out?

Scottrf wrote:Who are the crucial players missing out?

They're the ones not being selected.

kingelderfield wrote:

Scottrf wrote:Who are the crucial players missing out?

They're the ones not being selected.

Helpful.

You don't rate solomona? Looks a top prospect. I assume you mean cipriani and wade as to those who miss out?

Scottrf wrote:

kingelderfield wrote:

Scottrf wrote:Who are the crucial players missing out?

They're the ones not being selected.

Helpful.

If you have an opinion feel free to give it.

kingelderfield wrote:

Scottrf wrote:

kingelderfield wrote:

Scottrf wrote:Who are the crucial players missing out?

They're the ones not being selected.

Helpful.

If you have an opinion feel free to give it.

? I asked you who you thought was missing out and needs to be there and you basically replied every rugby player in the world other than the ones selected.

No 7&1/2 wrote:You don't rate solomona? Looks a top prospect. I assume you mean cipriani and wade as to those who miss out?

Wade obviously is worth selection, especially if you think Solomona 'Looks a top prospect'.

I think the Cipriani boat has sailed.

Scottrf wrote:

kingelderfield wrote:

Scottrf wrote:

kingelderfield wrote:

Scottrf wrote:Who are the crucial players missing out?

They're the ones not being selected.

Helpful.

If you have an opinion feel free to give it.

? I asked you who you thought was missing out and needs to be there and you basically replied every rugby player in the world other than the ones selected.

No I didn't actually. As I say if you have an opinion feel free to give it, though it would appear that you don't.

Ah come on....its no secret that I detest the thought of Solomana playing for us...HOWEVER im not blind. The guy is a hell of a player and future!

kingelderfield wrote:No I didn't actually. As I say if you have an opinion feel free to give it, though it would appear that you don't.

What the hell is your problem. I was curious to who you thought was missing out because you've called it a wasted opportunity.

KingElder,

Who should be touring then?

GeordieFalcon wrote:KingElder,

Who should be touring then?

Wade, Cipriani, Robson, Simpson

Scottrf wrote:

kingelderfield wrote:No I didn't actually. As I say if you have an opinion feel free to give it, though it would appear that you don't.

What the hell is your problem. I was curious to who you thought was missing out because you've called it a wasted opportunity.

I'm sure if you wanted you could make some sort of assumption as to which players are being left out.

Yeah that's about right LT...

Think wades boat has sailed as well. What do you feel is lacking from solomona s game? I'm assuming you've not been impressed?

Come on who are the crucial and why are they crucial?

GeordieFalcon wrote:Ah come on....its no secret that I detest the thought of Solomana playing for us...HOWEVER im not blind. The guy is a hell of a player and future!

Yes he is a talented player, though I doubt he'll be a long term participant.

kingelderfield wrote:

Scottrf wrote:

kingelderfield wrote:No I didn't actually. As I say if you have an opinion feel free to give it, though it would appear that you don't.

What the hell is your problem. I was curious to who you thought was missing out because you've called it a wasted opportunity.

I'm sure if you wanted you could make some sort of assumption as to which players are being left out.

I'm sure I could but you made the point so thought you might have something interesting to say.

'He's making a big mistake leaving certain players out'
'Who?'
'You decide'

Is a pretty pointless waste of a few posts. Don't make a point if you're going to be awkward when asked to elaborate.

LondonTiger wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:KingElder,

Who should be touring then?

Wade, Cipriani, Robson, Simpson

You forgot Taylor

I'd have liked to see Haley potentially to add to the ones mentioned. But I guess he thinks Brown and Daly will suffice.

Yes the usual deserving suspects but not kids and cast offs.

Mallinder, Lozowski and Underhill, are worth looking at but others should also be there.

What would tour ideal team and bench be? Would you be looking at winning or just giving a s axons team a run out?

Scottrf wrote:

kingelderfield wrote:

Scottrf wrote:

kingelderfield wrote:No I didn't actually. As I say if you have an opinion feel free to give it, though it would appear that you don't.

What the hell is your problem. I was curious to who you thought was missing out because you've called it a wasted opportunity.

I'm sure if you wanted you could make some sort of assumption as to which players are being left out.

I'm sure I could but you made the point so thought you might have something interesting to say.

'He's making a big mistake leaving certain players out'
'Who?'
'You decide'

Is a pretty pointless waste of a few posts. Don't make a point if you're going to be awkward when asked to elaborate.

Really, well thanks for your insight. Of course if you have opinion then feel free to give it.

No 7&1/2 wrote:What would tour ideal team and bench be? Would you be looking at winning or just giving a s axons team a run out?

You are a charlie.

Eh?

Scottrf wrote:I'd have liked to see Haley potentially to add to the ones mentioned. But I guess he thinks Brown and Daly will suffice.

I agree Haley should definitely be on tour. Then should we have injuries or loss of form from those ahead of him we would of had more time in the bank as to his ability in an international environment.

LondonTiger wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:KingElder,

Who should be touring then?

Wade, Cipriani, Robson, Simpson

From that list only Robson would be worth a spot for me and he's really went off the boil at the business end of the season.

What would be your team then king? Who and why are these players crucial?

kingelderfield wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:What would tour ideal team and bench be? Would you be looking at winning or just giving a s axons team a run out?

You are a charlie.

I don't even know what that is, but it sounds nasty.

It's a fool apparently sarge. I'm not sure why unless it's asking a straight question and expecting a straight reply makes me one. In this case it may do.

No 7&1/2 wrote:It's a fool apparently sarge. I'm not sure why unless it's asking a straight question and expecting a straight reply makes me one. In this case it may do.

You know the drill, its all opinions. I just find parasitical inquiry quite tedious.

It is all opinions. I was asking yours and asking for some further clarification on which players were the crucial ones and why. Shouldn't be hard to do. Most people find it quite fun.

kingelderfield wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:It's a fool apparently sarge. I'm not sure why unless it's asking a straight question and expecting a straight reply makes me one. In this case it may do.

You know the drill, its all opinions. I just find parasitical inquiry quite tedious.
 

It was just a question princess.

So he criticises selection, then refuses to offer his thoughts, and calls people a Charlie who ask him for his opinion...??

No 7&1/2 wrote:It is all opinions. I was asking yours and asking for some further clarification on which players were the crucial ones and why. Shouldn't be hard to do. Most people find it quite fun.

You're opinion is always very welcome.

GeordieFalcon wrote:...Very young Players like Daly and Sinkler etc will gain MASSIVE experience from the Lions tour...

Not necessarily. A 22 year old Iain Balshaw came back from the 2001 Lions tour a busted flush. Andy Titterall and Ollie Smith gained no boost from the 2005 Lions tour. Meanwhile, Christian Wade, Tom Youngs and Billy Twelvetrees are all in the international wilderness four years after they were Lions. And Corbisiero burned out.