England tour to Argentina

First topic message reminder :

It has been touched on in other threads but thought it was worth its own post.  
With the Lions touring to NZ there will be an opportunity for EJ to test some fresh talent.  Who would you like to see?

Interesting fact...the last time Wade was capped was the last tour to Argentina when he was also called into the Lions.
Clifford is now ruled out as having shoulder surgery - http://www.quins.co.uk/news/jack-clifford-injury-update/

I am working on the assumption that Lions call ups will be - Hartley, George, Cole, Itoje, Lawes, Mako V, Billy V, Launchbury, Youngs, Farrell, Joseph, Watson, Daly, Haskell, Brown......(there will be others I am sure and possibly some of these wont go).

But on that assumption and picking 2 in each position I would think that the tour selection group could be something like this - (from EPS and Saxons)
1. Marler, Genge
2. Taylor, LCD
3. Sinkler, Catt (not sure if he is TH or LH)
4. Kruis, Attwood
5. Ewels , ?
6. Robshaw, D.Armond
7. T.Harrison, T.Wood
8. Hughes, J.Chisholm
9. Care, Robson
10. Ford, Slade
11.J.May, Rokko
12.Ben Teo, ?
13.? ?
14.Yarde, Wade
15.Lozowski, Goode

Those are the chaps that I can think of from the current EPS and Saxons - There are a number that I am sure wont be included and a number from outside the squads that might have a run.
Guys like Solomona have been mentioned, Underhill, Beaumont, youngsters from U20s - Malinder, Marchant,
Who is a good option for 13?

UPDATED WITH SELECTED SQUAD -
Forwards
Will Collier (Harlequins, uncapped)
Luke Cowan-Dickie (Exeter Chiefs, 4 caps)
Ben Curry (Sale Sharks, uncapped)
Tom Curry (Sale Sharks, uncapped)
Charlie Ewels (Bath Rugby, 3 caps)
Ellis Genge (Leicester Tigers, 1 cap)
Dylan Hartley – captain (Northampton Saints, 84 caps)
James Haskell (Wasps, 75 caps)
Paul Hill (Northampton Saints, 5 caps)
Nathan Hughes (Wasps, 8 caps)
Nick Isiekwe (Saracens, uncapped)
Joe Launchbury (Wasps, 42 caps)
Matt Mullan (Wasps, 15 caps)
Chris Robshaw (Harlequins, 55 caps)
Sam Underhill (Ospreys/Bath Rugby, uncapped)
Harry Williams (Exeter Chiefs, uncapped)
Tom Wood (Northampton Saints, 50 caps)

Backs
Mike Brown – vice-captain (Harlequins, 60 caps)
Danny Care – vice captain (Harlequins, 71 caps)
Joe Cokanasiga (London Irish, uncapped)
Nathan Earle (Saracens, uncapped)
George Ford – vice captain (Bath Rugby, 35 caps)
Piers Francis (Auckland Blues/Northampton Saints, uncapped)
Sam James (Sale Sharks, uncapped)
Alex Lozowski (Saracens, uncapped)
Harry Mallinder (Northampton Saints, uncapped)
Joe Marchant (Harlequins, uncapped)
Jack Maunder (Exeter Chiefs, uncapped)
Jonny May (Gloucester Rugby, 25 caps)
Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs, 4 caps)
Denny Solomona (Sale Sharks, uncapped)

Unavailable for selection due to injury
Jack Clifford (Harlequins)
Sam Jones (Wasps)

England’s two-Test tour to Argentina
Estadio San Juan del Bicentenario, San Juan, Kick-off 16:15 (local time), Saturday 10th June
Estadio Brigadier General Estanislao Lopez, Santa Fe. Kick-off 16:15 (local time), Saturday 17th June

Scottrf wrote:

kingelderfield wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:It's a fool apparently sarge. I'm not sure why unless it's asking a straight question and expecting a straight reply makes me one. In this case it may do.

You know the drill, its all opinions. I just find parasitical inquiry quite tedious.
 

It was just a question princess.

Apologies if you got the brunt of that. Princess....now there's a first.

Rugby Fan wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:...Very young Players like Daly and Sinkler etc will gain MASSIVE experience from the Lions tour...

Not necessarily. A 22 year old Iain Balshaw came back from the 2001 Lions tour a busted flush. Andy Titterall and Ollie Smith gained no boost from the 2005 Lions tour. Meanwhile, Christian Wade, Tom Youngs and Billy Twelvetrees are all in the international wilderness four years after they were Lions. And Corbisiero burned out.

There is a degree of truth in that , however aside from Balshaw who at the time was top class....none of the rest were definite starters or players who didn't already have doubts about them....

Ie Wades defence was always highlighted. We just thought it could be fixed.
Tom Youngs was always thought to be too small, and not a good enough actual hooker.
Twelvetrees just too inconsistent.

Daly looks the real deal as does Sinkler. So fingers crossed they benefit from this tour.

Rugby Fan wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:...Very young Players like Daly and Sinkler etc will gain MASSIVE experience from the Lions tour...

Not necessarily. A 22 year old Iain Balshaw came back from the 2001 Lions tour a busted flush. Andy Titterall and Ollie Smith gained no boost from the 2005 Lions tour. Meanwhile, Christian Wade, Tom Youngs and Billy Twelvetrees are all in the international wilderness four years after they were Lions. And Corbisiero burned out.

I always felt Twelvetrees and Wade were abused by the situation. The quid pro quo being we'll tickle your naive ego by way of undeserved experience for covering a game or two, allowing the test side to rest up. Should they have stayed in Argentina and not had the heads messed with?

So. What's your preferred team and bench then king. Which players are crucial and why?

Oh come on you Charlie...he doesn't have to answer that....

GeordieFalcon wrote:

Rugby Fan wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:...Very young Players like Daly and Sinkler etc will gain MASSIVE experience from the Lions tour...

Not necessarily. A 22 year old Iain Balshaw came back from the 2001 Lions tour a busted flush. Andy Titterall and Ollie Smith gained no boost from the 2005 Lions tour. Meanwhile, Christian Wade, Tom Youngs and Billy Twelvetrees are all in the international wilderness four years after they were Lions. And Corbisiero burned out.

There is a degree of truth in that , however aside from Balshaw who at the time was top class....none of the rest were definite starters or players who didn't already have doubts about them....

Ie Wades defence was always highlighted. We just thought it could be fixed.
Tom Youngs was always thought to be too small, and not a good enough actual hooker.
Twelvetrees just too inconsistent.

Daly looks the real deal as does Sinkler. So fingers crossed they benefit from this tour.

Fingers firmly crossed for Sinkler. No doubt talented and somebody I've highlighted before. I just fear his inexperience and personality (as much as you can derive of such through the ether).

I have just stolen this from another location (and I don't apologise as it is a good bit of info! ). If its true, then its quite an eye opener.

England Home Grown players by club (The club that could claim home grown credits from them) who will be representing Lions, Seniors, U20 and U18 this summer
---------------------------------
Saracens: 16 (George, Itoje, Kruis, Farrell, Isiekwe, Francis, Earle, Adams-Hale, Earl, Nay, Crossdale, Malins, Morris, Christie, Reffell, Obatoyinbo)

Harlequins: 13 (Marler, Sinkler, Collier, Launchbury, Robshaw, Marchant, Brown, Aspland-Robinson, Ibitoye, Coyle, Smith, Head, Murley)

Exeter: 10 (Nowell, Cowan-Dickie, Williams, Maunder, Slade, Caulfield, Street, Kenny, Capstick, Wright)

Sale: 9 (Curry, Curry, James, Mitchell, Wilkinson, Reed, Dolly, Redpath, Moore)

Gloucester: 8 (May, Knight, Mullis, Seville, Walker, Randall, Seabrook, Hinkley)

Leicester:8 (Cole, Youngs, Ford, Evans, Umaga, Hardwick, Heyes, Grahamslaw)

Worcester: 8 (Hartley, Mullan, Wood, Clegg, Butler, David, Scott, Hill)

London Irish: 8 (Joseph, Watson, Cokanasiga, Brophy Clews, Parton, Basham, Loader)

Bristol: 6 (Vunipola, Genge, Dawe, Capon, Dunn, Rowland)

Wasps: 5 (Vunipola, Daly, Haskell, Tunney, Porter)

Yorkshire: 5 (Hill, Care, Lozowski, Wright, Fox)

Northampton: 4 (Lawes, Mallinder, Dingwall, Strachan)

Bath: 3 (Ewels, Bayliss, Mercer)

Newcastle: 3 (Blamire, Davies, Kelemeti)

Bloody poor show by my falcons!!!!

GeordieFalcon wrote:Oh come on you Charlie...he doesn't have to answer that....

Thank you Geordie, well said.

So what is your preferred team? Why are these players crucial? Why are you reluctant to answer a couple of simple questions?

Sorry to be a bore, but obviously this is a list of selected players which in it self is subjective. But even so that's a very informative list.

Id take it down if I were you before Beshocked fills his boots!

No 7&1/2 wrote:So what is your preferred team? Why are these players crucial? Why are you reluctant to answer a couple of simple questions?

We have ways of making you post!

You go first.

My ideal first test without the lions would be
Genge Hartley hill
Ewell Launchbury
Robshaw underhill
Hughes
Robson ford
May slade marchant solomona brown.

Mullen Taylor brooks kitchener Haskell care Lozowski wade

I don't think anyone is crucial to England. Nearest is Farrell but not quite. It wasn't that hard to type that. You king?

GeordieFalcon wrote:I have just stolen this from another location (and I don't apologise as it is a good bit of info! ). If its true, then its quite an eye opener.

England Home Grown players by club (The club that could claim home grown credits from them) who will be representing Lions, Seniors, U20 and U18 this summer
---------------------------------
Saracens: 16 (George, Itoje, Kruis, Farrell, Isiekwe, Francis, Earle, Adams-Hale, Earl, Nay, Crossdale, Malins, Morris, Christie, Reffell, Obatoyinbo)

Harlequins: 13 (Marler, Sinkler, Collier, Launchbury, Robshaw, Marchant, Brown, Aspland-Robinson, Ibitoye, Coyle, Smith, Head, Murley)

Exeter: 10 (Nowell, Cowan-Dickie, Williams, Maunder, Slade, Caulfield, Street, Kenny, Capstick, Wright)

Sale: 9 (Curry, Curry, James, Mitchell, Wilkinson, Reed, Dolly, Redpath, Moore)

Gloucester: 8 (May, Knight, Mullis, Seville, Walker, Randall, Seabrook, Hinkley)

Leicester:8 (Cole, Youngs, Ford, Evans, Umaga, Hardwick, Heyes, Grahamslaw)

Worcester: 8 (Hartley, Mullan, Wood, Clegg, Butler, David, Scott, Hill)

London Irish: 8 (Joseph, Watson, Cokanasiga, Brophy Clews, Parton, Basham, Loader)

Bristol: 6 (Vunipola, Genge, Dawe, Capon, Dunn, Rowland)

Wasps: 5 (Vunipola, Daly, Haskell, Tunney, Porter)

Yorkshire: 5 (Hill, Care, Lozowski, Wright, Fox)

Northampton: 4 (Lawes, Mallinder, Dingwall, Strachan)

Bath: 3 (Ewels, Bayliss, Mercer)

Newcastle: 3 (Blamire, Davies, Kelemeti)

Bloody poor show by my falcons!!!!

The list is surprising and yet pleasing.

Does it show Saracens bias? Perhaps. The amount of coaches that seem to be in the Lions and England set up does seem to suggest this.

Most of the Saracens coaches have been pinched by England or the Lions.

Don Barrell and Phil Morrow are recent acquisitions by the RFU and Lions respectively.

I think it's impressive how well Saracens have done despite the amount of coaches lost.

Alex Sanderson and Kevin Sorrell in particular have done a great job. Both underrated.

No 7&1/2 wrote:My ideal first test without the lions would be
Genge Hartley hill - This would be last tour for Hartley, captaincy likewise - definitely want to see Otoje in the autumn. I don't rate Hill but don't know who else we have......Genge looks to be the real deal and so I hope the Lions don't come calling.
Ewell Launchbury - Ewell gets name checked a lot but he's never stood out for me. I would go large with Barrow, though this may be an issue calling?
Robshaw underhill Agreed
Hughes - Yep, should never have been dropped for Dublin. Simply form, and more importantly physiologically it was a terrible call.
Robson ford - Form wise both players are slipping. However class is permanent. I'd go with Burns and give Ford a rest. I'm hoping Robson comes good but would have Simpson on the bench and start with Care.
May slade marchant solomona brown. I'm over May and wouldn't cap Solomona just to seal his nationality (though I appreciate that's not why you've selected him) Yes to Slade and Marchant is worth a look. For me Brown is done. So I'd have Bassett and Wade to start with Haley at the back.

Mullen Taylor brooks kitchener Haskell care Lozowski wade - Mullen has no international future so I would try someone else? Taylor is good though I'd give it to Cowan-Dickie. Again Brooks appears to be a space filler only, though who is there? Ok to Kitchener but Haskell should have the summer off. Morgan on the bench. Simpson, Lowowski, Watson snr.

I don't think anyone is crucial to England.  Nearest is Farrell but not quite. It wasn't that hard to type that. You king?

I think Itoje is crucial, I actually think he is as influential as Johnson was.

Yer you should learn to give blood more often.

beshocked wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:I have just stolen this from another location (and I don't apologise as it is a good bit of info! ). If its true, then its quite an eye opener.

England Home Grown players by club (The club that could claim home grown credits from them) who will be representing Lions, Seniors, U20 and U18 this summer
---------------------------------
Saracens: 16 (George, Itoje, Kruis, Farrell, Isiekwe, Francis, Earle, Adams-Hale, Earl, Nay, Crossdale, Malins, Morris, Christie, Reffell, Obatoyinbo)

Harlequins: 13 (Marler, Sinkler, Collier, Launchbury, Robshaw, Marchant, Brown, Aspland-Robinson, Ibitoye, Coyle, Smith, Head, Murley)

Exeter: 10 (Nowell, Cowan-Dickie, Williams, Maunder, Slade, Caulfield, Street, Kenny, Capstick, Wright)

Sale: 9 (Curry, Curry, James, Mitchell, Wilkinson, Reed, Dolly, Redpath, Moore)

Gloucester: 8 (May, Knight, Mullis, Seville, Walker, Randall, Seabrook, Hinkley)

Leicester:8 (Cole, Youngs, Ford, Evans, Umaga, Hardwick, Heyes, Grahamslaw)

Worcester: 8 (Hartley, Mullan, Wood, Clegg, Butler, David, Scott, Hill)

London Irish: 8 (Joseph, Watson, Cokanasiga, Brophy Clews, Parton, Basham, Loader)

Bristol: 6 (Vunipola, Genge, Dawe, Capon, Dunn, Rowland)

Wasps: 5 (Vunipola, Daly, Haskell, Tunney, Porter)

Yorkshire: 5 (Hill, Care, Lozowski, Wright, Fox)

Northampton: 4 (Lawes, Mallinder, Dingwall, Strachan)

Bath: 3 (Ewels, Bayliss, Mercer)

Newcastle: 3 (Blamire, Davies, Kelemeti)

Bloody poor show by my falcons!!!!

The list is surprising and yet pleasing.

Does it show Saracens bias? Perhaps. The amount of coaches that seem to be in the Lions and England set up does seem to suggest this.

Most of the Saracens coaches have been pinched by England or the Lions.

Don Barrell and Phil Morrow are recent acquisitions by the RFU and Lions respectively.

I think it's impressive how well Saracens have done despite the amount of coaches lost.

Alex Sanderson and Kevin Sorrell in particular have done a great job. Both underrated.

What did I say

Basset over solomona. Ok. Don't see that at all. So you're crucial players would be out of simpson wade bassett Barrow haley burns...is that billy or his brother? I'm not sure any are crucial to be honest. Simpson wade you could say are unlucky. Haley looks to have been by passed by the emergence of Daly.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Basset over solomona. Ok. Don't see that at all. So you're crucial players would be out of simpson wade bassett Barrow haley burns...is that billy or his brother? I'm not sure any are crucial to be honest. Simpson wade you could say are unlucky.  Haley looks to have been by passed by the emergence of Daly.

Bassett has had a very good season and to be fair is going under the radar (he was mistakenly dropped by Youngs) and is now again first choice - since Cipriani was benched.

Freddie Burns.

Agreed Haley has been overtaken, though I want Watson but would try Daly at the back.

I didn't use the term 'crucial'. You're usually very good on detail.

Ypu did respond to a question saying the crucial guys were the ones left out. Bassett is a decent club player but nothing more same as Watson. Why not have a look at the guys like earle who have the big potential. He's likely to get plenty of hame time next year. Jones squad as someone mentioned earlier is looking at the newest generation. The guys in their early 20s. I think he'll be wanting to see guys like underhill km press but I'm certain he'll be looking to get a series win.

kingelderfield wrote:

Scottrf wrote:Who are the crucial players missing out?

They're the ones not being selected.

So this non-response is the response you're referring to?

Not a very solid argument is it. Just admit you misread the post.

No KE,

You said players were missing, then when asked who...you said the ones not picked....

Have you just come on here to wind people up?

No 7&1/2 wrote:Ypu did respond to a question saying the crucial guys were the ones left out. Bassett is a decent club player but nothing more same as Watson. Why not have a look at the guys like earle who have the big potential. He's likely to get plenty of hame time next year. Jones squad as someone mentioned earlier is looking at the newest generation. The guys in their early 20s. I think he'll be wanting to see guys like underhill km press but I'm certain he'll be looking to get a series win.

I've watched Earle since his under 20 performances and sure he's definitely in the picture, but the fact is Bassett has played the better rugby this year.

GeordieFalcon wrote:No KE,

You said players were missing, then when asked who...you said the ones not picked....

Have you just come on here to wind people up?

No with respect Geordie the point I was making was the absolute opposite. There are people on here who will happily, actually deliberately, just pick holes in others opinions while not being prepared to volunteer their own thoughts or even god forbid actually instigate a discussion. I was just giving them some of their own medicine so to speak.

Apologies to you if you were caught in the cross fire.

kingelderfield wrote:...There are people on here who will happily, actually deliberately, just pick holes in others opinions while not being prepared to volunteer their own thoughts or even god forbid actually instigate a discussion. I was just giving them some of their own medicine so to speak...

If that means you deliberately decided to come across as a bit of an a*se, then I'm happy to say you succeeded, KE.

Still, I think you know your rugby, so I'd enjoy reading your opinions if you do fancy sharing them in future.

I'm not seeing Bassett KE. Looks a handy AP winger but not quite at the level required and at 25 not likely to improve much.

I really like the make up of the wings, some big potential there.

I don't know many people who come on a discussion forum to deliberately not give an opinion! My only argument here would be Watson and bassett shouldn't be near ghe england squad even one thus weakened. Good club players nothing more. Not really something to criticise jones for.

GeordieFalcon wrote:

Rugby Fan wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:...Very young Players like Daly and Sinkler etc will gain MASSIVE experience from the Lions tour...

Not necessarily. A 22 year old Iain Balshaw came back from the 2001 Lions tour a busted flush. Andy Titterall and Ollie Smith gained no boost from the 2005 Lions tour. Meanwhile, Christian Wade, Tom Youngs and Billy Twelvetrees are all in the international wilderness four years after they were Lions. And Corbisiero burned out.

There is a degree of truth in that , however aside from Balshaw who at the time was top class....none of the rest were definite starters or players who didn't already have doubts about them....

Ie Wades defence was always highlighted. We just thought it could be fixed.
Tom Youngs was always thought to be too small, and not a good enough actual hooker.
Twelvetrees just too inconsistent.

Daly looks the real deal as does Sinkler. So fingers crossed they benefit from this tour.

I raise it, because it's often claimed that the Lions is great for player development but I doubt that it is. Obviously, it's hard to measure because you hope that good players will develop anyway. Is Owen Farrell a better player now because of the 2013 Lions experience, or would he have got where he is without it?. I suspect the latter but it's unprovable.

Nevertheless, the Welsh made up most of the 2013 Lions squad and have lost against Australia in all matches since that series. Players like North, Halfpenny and Cuthbert all look less than they were, and that's not down to age. I'm not sure there's anyone across the whole squad who is inarguably better as a result of having toured in 2013.

Sure, maybe the best English talent wasn't get picked for the 2013 Lions, but some went. Ben Youngs and Dan Cole have been quite candid about how it took them a long time to recover from the tour, while we can only wonder what benefit Manu might have had from not going,

formerly known as Sam wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:I think it also allow Jones to get a good close look at just how bad Haskells foot problem is.

Is it just minor... or is it actually a problem that really is affecting his work rate and more importantly his physicality. Because if you take out Haskells physicality, you pretty much make him ineffective.

I appreciate he was only just returning from injury in the 6n...but his performances were a shadow of those in Australia. (Most of the team were to be fair)

The reason Haskell didn't look up to scratch in the 6N is because the pack struggled with three locks. We lacked mobility around the park and the lineout didn't really benefit. Two proper flankers in Robshaw and Haskell offered us a lot more in work rate and gave us much more of an edge in the loose.

Gwlad wrote:I actually think Gats has done Eddie a favor not picking Launchbury and Hartley as the Argies will be up for this tour.

Don't know, hooker and second row are areas of strength for England. When the reserve squad doesn't include Tommy Taylor and Dom Barrow I'd say we're in a good position.

This.I feel for Haskell. He's already getting dropped by people for the completely unproven Undersell. He always seems to be the fall guy even when performing. I want to see how Undersell goes, but I'd bring him on as a sub.

Also points to our other problem, too many decent players. We have 4 top class locks, possibly more, and the temptation is to try and squeeze them all in. Pick two, and one for the bench. We have to have that discipline. At some point England is just going to have to work out a process to a) identify the players who can step up and b)how they can all fit together to gain some consistency and understanding of each other's games.

Wade is certainly unlucky I'd say but obviously his defence is seen as an issue. Personally I would have taken him instead of either Earle or the LI winger but Jones clearly sees potential.

Bassett is being outshone by Wade anyway. Quite far down the try count this season.

Solomona is the only one of the top dozen try scorers going, and I think all but one are England qualified. Marchant and Lozowski next and they are both 9 behind Wade.

Would be interesting to speculate how this squad might look differently if Wasps had beaten Leinster with a strong performance.

Squad is obviously missing quite a few players who have currently propelled Wasps to league leaders of the AP.

beshocked wrote:Wade is certainly unlucky I'd say but obviously his defence is seen as an issue. Personally I would have taken him instead of either Earle or the LI winger but Jones clearly sees potential.

Bassett is being outshone by Wade anyway. Quite far down the try count this season.

I agree with beshocked, Wade is unlucky, his attacking threat is there for all to see, but Eddie clearly doesn't rate him, and you can only think that is down to his defence. Bassett is nowhere near being international standard, and to me does not look as if he ever will be, unlike Earle and Cokanasiga who both have huge potential. I've not seen enough of Earle to comment on whether he's ready for this tour or not. Cokanasiga I think it's a year to early to for if I am being honest. This time last year he was playing in the academy U18 final, and the highest level he has played in is the Championship. His all round game is good and his work rate, especially on the kick chase, is excellent. it is a bold selection by Eddie though, and I'll be surprised if he makes the matchday squads, but if he does, one way or another it will be exciting to watch.

Definitely one to watch - But even in the U20s 6N just gone, Cokanasiga didn't stand out for me - it was the work of Malins, Curry and Mercer that got the plaudits.

to be fair, this is one squad where I don't think Wade not being picked means much. Seems the players picked are either first choice (as in genuine current first choice), picks out of necessity where 2 top looseheads for example aren't available, or picked on future talent. No "current generation" players not in the starting XV have really been picked

Presumably the EPS agreement is also waved for this tour too! Were the clubs on board with that?

The transition of U20s to internationals is an interesting one and can sometimes be a very tough one.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/27939607

Look at the U20s of 2014.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/23010922

2013 too.

Just shows how competitive it can be. Seems like only about 3-4 players in each group make the step up.

Of course it's a generalisation but I wonder if England need to do more to bridge the gap between U20s and internationals.

beshocked wrote:The transition of U20s to internationals is an interesting one and can sometimes be a very tough one.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/27939607

Look at the U20s of 2014.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/23010922

2013 too.

Just shows how competitive it can be. Seems like only about 3-4 players in each group make the step up.

Of course it's a generalisation but I wonder if England need to do more to bridge the gap between U20s and internationals.

We don't. Fact is that a player will have 2 years in the U20's, and if he makes it big time anything up 8 years in the seniors. We don't need every U20 to make it into the senior ranks. We do want most of them to make it as senior pro's, but we don't need them to take the place of senior internationals unless they are good enough to do so. So an average of around 4-5 is about right.

You generally don't need a high turnover of players though especially for a team like england. Already shed loads of options. Much better to take the cream and integrate. You ocassionally get a coach who wants wholesale changes but hopefully something like that isn't needed.

Continuing from the lions 'discussion' who's going to be thrown the armband when Hartley goes off? Farrell seems jones choice, Itoje possibly favoured by fans. Does it go to brown as one of the normal vice captains and does that mean he'll play as much as he can over the 2 games or is there an obvious choice in the squad?

Honestly I think that depends on who shows/develops the attributes to be Captain. It needs to be someone who is pretty much a guaranteed starter, but it's also about their decision making under pressure, and capacity to set the tone - both of which are much harder to judge from outside. From what little I can tell though it appears to be one area in which our academy system is lacking, lots of great athletes and even great players coming through - but not many who strike me as great thinkers (bit harsh and I hope I am wrong, but the team seemed clueless against Italy until half time when they had coaches to tell them what to do).

Brown, Care and Ford were named vice captains for the tour.

LondonTiger wrote:Brown, Care and Ford were named vice captains for the tour.

Not Robshaw or Haskell may be a thing to note.

LondonTiger wrote:Brown, Care and Ford were named vice captains for the tour.

Ah, feeling dumb now. I thought this was a longer term question in terms of who will be taking over when Dylan is no longer up to international rugby - not a literal if/when he goes off after 50/60 minutes. I'll just sit myself in the corner with the dunce hat.

GeordieFalcon wrote:I have just stolen this from another location (and I don't apologise as it is a good bit of info! ). If its true, then its quite an eye opener.

England Home Grown players by club (The club that could claim home grown credits from them) who will be representing Lions, Seniors, U20 and U18 this summer
---------------------------------
Saracens: 16 (George, Itoje, Kruis, Farrell, Isiekwe, Francis, Earle, Adams-Hale, Earl, Nay, Crossdale, Malins, Morris, Christie, Reffell, Obatoyinbo)

Harlequins: 13 (Marler, Sinkler, Collier, Launchbury, Robshaw, Marchant, Brown, Aspland-Robinson, Ibitoye, Coyle, Smith, Head, Murley)

Exeter: 10 (Nowell, Cowan-Dickie, Williams, Maunder, Slade, Caulfield, Street, Kenny, Capstick, Wright)

Sale: 9 (Curry, Curry, James, Mitchell, Wilkinson, Reed, Dolly, Redpath, Moore)

Gloucester: 8 (May, Knight, Mullis, Seville, Walker, Randall, Seabrook, Hinkley)

Leicester:8 (Cole, Youngs, Ford, Evans, Umaga, Hardwick, Heyes, Grahamslaw)

Worcester: 8 (Hartley, Mullan, Wood, Clegg, Butler, David, Scott, Hill)

London Irish: 8 (Joseph, Watson, Cokanasiga, Brophy Clews, Parton, Basham, Loader)

Bristol: 6 (Vunipola, Genge, Dawe, Capon, Dunn, Rowland)

Wasps: 5 (Vunipola, Daly, Haskell, Tunney, Porter)

Yorkshire: 5 (Hill, Care, Lozowski, Wright, Fox)

Northampton: 4 (Lawes, Mallinder, Dingwall, Strachan)

Bath: 3 (Ewels, Bayliss, Mercer)

Newcastle: 3 (Blamire, Davies, Kelemeti)

Bloody poor show by my falcons!!!!

Should we add Moriarty from Gloucester? Home grown, representing the Lions, meets all the criteria...

He should really Robbo, just not an England player.

Gooseberry wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:Brown, Care and Ford were named vice captains for the tour.

Not Robshaw or Haskell may be a thing to note.

I'm not sure we should read anything into anything in this tour

All he is trying to do is grow leadership group in the backs in a team that we know is short of leaders. I am not sure Haskell is seen as a leader, his in camp videos suggest he is not trying to be a senior player who leads but rather ingratiates himself.

Is Graham Slaw Coles brother?

Gooseberry wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:Brown, Care and Ford were named vice captains for the tour.

Not Robshaw or Haskell may be a thing to note.

I think it's been decided that Robshaw deserves the chance without being a responsible position -- it can muddy things if you have an ex-captain in the squad, though it seems to have worked thus far, but making him VC I think would muddy them further

Its all irrelevant anyway.

Jones has said he's looking for 3-4 from this tour to push on the Seniors...but players who offer something different to what we currently have.

With that in mind, your looking at the 7's (Currys and Underhill) , Solomana and Joe Cocaksniga (We have NO backs with size!) and maybe Maunder at 9 (some consistency!)

Anything else is a bonus.

lostinwales wrote:

beshocked wrote:The transition of U20s to internationals is an interesting one and can sometimes be a very tough one.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/27939607

Look at the U20s of 2014.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/23010922

2013 too.

Just shows how competitive it can be. Seems like only about 3-4 players in each group make the step up.

Of course it's a generalisation but I wonder if England need to do more to bridge the gap between U20s and internationals.

We don't. Fact is that a player will have 2 years in the U20's, and if he makes it big time anything up 8 years in the seniors. We don't need every U20 to make it into the senior ranks. We do want most of them to make it as senior pro's, but we don't need them to take the place of senior internationals unless they are good enough to do so. So an average of around 4-5 is about right.

Completely as you say.

It's a bit like a club academy. You don't need every academy player becoming a mainstay of the first team, or you'll have 15 players every year, and after just 4 years you'll have a 60 added to your squad and be trying to shed them away.

When clubs sign players up for the academy, they'll have a few guys earmarked for success, and a load more signed up mainly so they have a good team to play in (with remote chances of success).

If you consistently have 4 stars in every year that become viable international options, you will have 42 players between 20 and 33 to populate your EPS and Saxons, along with some place-fillers in the Saxons when necessary. If you're using more than 42 international players in any given year, something's gone wrong.