England tour to Argentina

First topic message reminder :

It has been touched on in other threads but thought it was worth its own post.  
With the Lions touring to NZ there will be an opportunity for EJ to test some fresh talent.  Who would you like to see?

Interesting fact...the last time Wade was capped was the last tour to Argentina when he was also called into the Lions.
Clifford is now ruled out as having shoulder surgery - http://www.quins.co.uk/news/jack-clifford-injury-update/

I am working on the assumption that Lions call ups will be - Hartley, George, Cole, Itoje, Lawes, Mako V, Billy V, Launchbury, Youngs, Farrell, Joseph, Watson, Daly, Haskell, Brown......(there will be others I am sure and possibly some of these wont go).

But on that assumption and picking 2 in each position I would think that the tour selection group could be something like this - (from EPS and Saxons)
1. Marler, Genge
2. Taylor, LCD
3. Sinkler, Catt (not sure if he is TH or LH)
4. Kruis, Attwood
5. Ewels , ?
6. Robshaw, D.Armond
7. T.Harrison, T.Wood
8. Hughes, J.Chisholm
9. Care, Robson
10. Ford, Slade
11.J.May, Rokko
12.Ben Teo, ?
13.? ?
14.Yarde, Wade
15.Lozowski, Goode

Those are the chaps that I can think of from the current EPS and Saxons - There are a number that I am sure wont be included and a number from outside the squads that might have a run.
Guys like Solomona have been mentioned, Underhill, Beaumont, youngsters from U20s - Malinder, Marchant,
Who is a good option for 13?

UPDATED WITH SELECTED SQUAD -
Forwards
Will Collier (Harlequins, uncapped)
Luke Cowan-Dickie (Exeter Chiefs, 4 caps)
Ben Curry (Sale Sharks, uncapped)
Tom Curry (Sale Sharks, uncapped)
Charlie Ewels (Bath Rugby, 3 caps)
Ellis Genge (Leicester Tigers, 1 cap)
Dylan Hartley – captain (Northampton Saints, 84 caps)
James Haskell (Wasps, 75 caps)
Paul Hill (Northampton Saints, 5 caps)
Nathan Hughes (Wasps, 8 caps)
Nick Isiekwe (Saracens, uncapped)
Joe Launchbury (Wasps, 42 caps)
Matt Mullan (Wasps, 15 caps)
Chris Robshaw (Harlequins, 55 caps)
Sam Underhill (Ospreys/Bath Rugby, uncapped)
Harry Williams (Exeter Chiefs, uncapped)
Tom Wood (Northampton Saints, 50 caps)

Backs
Mike Brown – vice-captain (Harlequins, 60 caps)
Danny Care – vice captain (Harlequins, 71 caps)
Joe Cokanasiga (London Irish, uncapped)
Nathan Earle (Saracens, uncapped)
George Ford – vice captain (Bath Rugby, 35 caps)
Piers Francis (Auckland Blues/Northampton Saints, uncapped)
Sam James (Sale Sharks, uncapped)
Alex Lozowski (Saracens, uncapped)
Harry Mallinder (Northampton Saints, uncapped)
Joe Marchant (Harlequins, uncapped)
Jack Maunder (Exeter Chiefs, uncapped)
Jonny May (Gloucester Rugby, 25 caps)
Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs, 4 caps)
Denny Solomona (Sale Sharks, uncapped)

Unavailable for selection due to injury
Jack Clifford (Harlequins)
Sam Jones (Wasps)

England’s two-Test tour to Argentina
Estadio San Juan del Bicentenario, San Juan, Kick-off 16:15 (local time), Saturday 10th June
Estadio Brigadier General Estanislao Lopez, Santa Fe. Kick-off 16:15 (local time), Saturday 17th June

I would be interested to see the squad that Argentina will have available...Will this largely be their Rugby Championship side?

Did Tom Wood pick up an injury which has made him pull out of the tour?

He went off injured - not sure if it was tour ending though!
Leg strain or something (perhaps the same reason that he pulled out prior to the Saints game the previous week).

T.Harrison replaced him on the day.
Not sure who EJs replacement would be in the squad - there were plenty of those left behind.

Underhill perhaps will get a good chance of being in the matchday squad (with Hask and Robshaw starting).
The Currys are largely there for the tour experience I feel.

I was concerned that the Currys would struggle with physicality outside of the U20s - but as they both started for Sale over weekend in a Sale win I assume that they didn't look out of place!
Does anyone know what their preferred positions are? Are they both 6s or 7s? Or one of each.

These Curry boys are just that, so I'd wait at least another year before promoting them. They should be with the u20's.

Well the U20's seem inundated with quality back rowers...so they all cant play in the JWC....

I guess Jones has decided the Currys look amongst the best with the most potential and so wants to get a closer look at them in Argentina.

They might get a few minutes run out...

At some point EJ may have to pick one over the other!

Just sneak both on ala WC 03.

propdavid_london wrote:At some point EJ may have to pick one over the other!

It reminds me of a poll BBC ran a while back about who should be England's third seamer in cricket, and one of the options was "Jamie or Craig Overton" - which is a ridiculous selection. At one point, you have to start judging them on their own merits and not each others'.

One goes off for an HIA when tired, swap shirts and other comes on fresh as a daisy. Free replacement.

LondonTiger wrote:One goes off for an HIA when tired, swap shirts and other comes on fresh as a daisy. Free replacement.

* Dean Richards likes this comment.

The Curry's both looked good at the weekend. Give them a few years to fill out and they could be dangerous. They have a physicality to them which you can't really teach.
Ben seems to be the 6 and Tom the 7, although that would seem to be interchangeable.

I do t think it would be too much for the Curries to get a go vs the Baabaas at least. Stick both in a backrow with Robshaw. Have someone more experienced ready on bench

Good shout CJ - I had forgotten about the BaaBaas game

Yeah the thing about the Curry's ( and underhill also ) is that at18 they still have a good bit of physical maturing to do.

So if they are showing a certain amount of physicality already then it bodes well for the future....should they reach the potential everyone sees in them....but we know that doesn't always happen!

GeordieFalcon wrote:Yeah the thing about the Curry's ( and underhill also ) is that at18 they still have a good bit of physical maturing to do.

So if they are showing a certain amount of physicality already then it bodes well for the future....should they reach the potential everyone sees in them....but we know that doesn't always happen!

Hopefully we'll get a polished Mercer too. And J Chisholm. Backrow not looking bad.

Never mind how strong the Argentina squad will be - this BaaBaas side is shaping up to be very strong

Barbarians squad (players named so far):

Backs: Bundee Aki (Connacht), Adam Ashley-Cooper (Bordeaux Begles & Australia), Yann David (Toulouse and France), Will Genia (Stade Francais & Australia), Ruan Pienaar (Ulster & South Africa), Charles Piutau (Ulster & New Zealand).

Forwards: Patricio Albacete (Toulouse & Argentina), Steffon Armitage (Pau & England), Thierry Dusautoir (Toulouse & France), Corey Flynn (Glasgow Warriors & New Zealand), Facundo Isa (Lyon & Argentina), Census Johnston (Toulouse & Samoa), Joe Tekori (Toulouse & Samoa), Jeremy Thrush (Gloucester & New Zealand).

It's shaping up to be quite some BaaBaas squad. Maxime Medard has been named as well I believe. Vern Cotter could already field the below from those formally announced:

1.
2.Corey Flynn
3.Census Johnston
4.Jeremy Thrush
5.Patricio Albacete
6.Thierry Dusautoir
7.Steffon Armitage
8.Facundo Isa

9.Will Genia
10.

11.Maxime Medard
12.Bundee Aki
13.Yann David
14.Adam Ashley-Cooper
15.Charles Piutau

16.
17.
18.
19.Joe Tekori
20.
21.Ruan Pienaar
22.
23.

ChequeredJersey wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:Yeah the thing about the Curry's ( and underhill also ) is that at18 they still have a good bit of physical maturing to do.

So if they are showing a certain amount of physicality already then it bodes well for the future....should they reach the potential everyone sees in them....but we know that doesn't always happen!

Hopefully we'll get a polished Mercer too. And J Chisholm. Backrow not looking bad.

We said that about the last back row trio we had huge hopes about...

6 Haskell
7 Rees
8 Narraway

Wow that back row is awesome. Whoever is our back row trio is going to have to be right on their game!

GeordieFalcon wrote:Wow that back row is awesome. Whoever is our back row trio is going to have to be right on their game!

It's very good. 2 greats and a flat track bully

Does make me kind of hope Wasps can't get past the semi finals so we have Hughes and Haskell and Launch available

GeordieFalcon wrote:

ChequeredJersey wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:Yeah the thing about the Curry's ( and underhill also ) is that at18 they still have a good bit of physical maturing to do.

So if they are showing a certain amount of physicality already then it bodes well for the future....should they reach the potential everyone sees in them....but we know that doesn't always happen!

Hopefully we'll get a polished Mercer too. And J Chisholm. Backrow not looking bad.

We said that about the last back row trio we had huge hopes about...

6 Haskell
7 Rees
8 Narraway

One is playing for EngLnd in good form, one would have been way behind Billy anyway. One is still not replaced

ChequeredJersey wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:

ChequeredJersey wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:Yeah the thing about the Curry's ( and underhill also ) is that at18 they still have a good bit of physical maturing to do.

So if they are showing a certain amount of physicality already then it bodes well for the future....should they reach the potential everyone sees in them....but we know that doesn't always happen!

Hopefully we'll get a polished Mercer too. And J Chisholm. Backrow not looking bad.

We said that about the last back row trio we had huge hopes about...

6 Haskell
7 Rees
8 Narraway

One is playing for EngLnd in good form, one would have been way behind Billy anyway. One is still not replaced

Very different types of players. They were excellent in the tour of NZ...then never played again...such a shame.

Is mike brown going on the Argentina tour?

Yup.

propdavid_london wrote:Never mind how strong the Argentina squad will be - this BaaBaas side is shaping up to be very strong

Barbarians squad (players named so far):

Backs: Bundee Aki (Connacht), Adam Ashley-Cooper (Bordeaux Begles & Australia), Yann David (Toulouse and France), Will Genia (Stade Francais & Australia), Ruan Pienaar (Ulster & South Africa), Charles Piutau (Ulster & New Zealand).

Forwards: Patricio Albacete (Toulouse & Argentina), Steffon Armitage (Pau & England), Thierry Dusautoir (Toulouse & France), Corey Flynn (Glasgow Warriors & New Zealand), Facundo Isa (Lyon & Argentina), Census Johnston (Toulouse & Samoa), Joe Tekori (Toulouse & Samoa), Jeremy Thrush (Gloucester & New Zealand).

Isa is one of my favourite non-English players. Will moving to Toulon end his Argentina career?

GeordieFalcon wrote:

ChequeredJersey wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:Yeah the thing about the Curry's ( and underhill also ) is that at18 they still have a good bit of physical maturing to do.

So if they are showing a certain amount of physicality already then it bodes well for the future....should they reach the potential everyone sees in them....but we know that doesn't always happen!

Hopefully we'll get a polished Mercer too. And J Chisholm. Backrow not looking bad.

We said that about the last back row trio we had huge hopes about...

6 Haskell
7 Rees
8 Narraway

I guess the difference now is that it's not 3 names, we're looking at a host of players with some potential.

If Underhill can break into the squad now (touch wood), we can play one of Robshaw or Haskell at 6, Underhill at 7 and Vunipola at 8 with Hughes on the bench. That's a pretty strong first 5 options, with everyone fit.

We've got Clifford, Harrison and Wood to step into the match day squad immediately if we have more than one injury, and Itoje able to slide across. We've also got Jones and Williams who may yet be called up, having both suffered injuries last autumn.

I think our second choice and third choice back rows would then be right up there with what anyone else can offer, although obviously not as strong as everyone else's first choice.

Then we have 2 Currys, Mercer and Chisholm (any others?). We need two of those to really make it over the next couple of years to replace Haskell and Robshaw for or after the World Cup. If two of them make it and become better players than Haskell and Robshaw are today, then that would be a very formidable back row.

Evans at Tigers too

This tour just got a bit more interesting considering the WC pool.

propdavid_london wrote:This tour just got a bit more interesting considering the WC pool.

Yes and no. Poor results for England not that much of a worry with all the players missing, but wins for England could be a concern to Argentina. After all if they cannot beat the second string, how ill they cope with first? They may choose to select weakened sides themselves, but may go full strength to try and lay down a marker.

So yeah interesting, but maybe not overly relevant to 2019.

robbo277 wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:

ChequeredJersey wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:Yeah the thing about the Curry's ( and underhill also ) is that at18 they still have a good bit of physical maturing to do.

So if they are showing a certain amount of physicality already then it bodes well for the future....should they reach the potential everyone sees in them....but we know that doesn't always happen!

Hopefully we'll get a polished Mercer too. And J Chisholm. Backrow not looking bad.

We said that about the last back row trio we had huge hopes about...

6 Haskell
7 Rees
8 Narraway

I guess the difference now is that it's not 3 names, we're looking at a host of players with some potential.

If Underhill can break into the squad now (touch wood), we can play one of Robshaw or Haskell at 6, Underhill at 7 and Vunipola at 8 with Hughes on the bench. That's a pretty strong first 5 options, with everyone fit.

We've got Clifford, Harrison and Wood to step into the match day squad immediately if we have more than one injury, and Itoje able to slide across. We've also got Jones and Williams who may yet be called up, having both suffered injuries last autumn.

I think our second choice and third choice back rows would then be right up there with what anyone else can offer, although obviously not as strong as everyone else's first choice.

Then we have 2 Currys, Mercer and Chisholm (any others?). We need two of those to really make it over the next couple of years to replace Haskell and Robshaw for or after the World Cup. If two of them make it and become better players than Haskell and Robshaw are today, then that would be a very formidable back row.

Calum Chick is one to watch aswell....looks a class act.

Huge potential for England....just need to make sure we get those players to the level we hope...

I have been impressed by Wray this season too

I disagree that this tour's results aren't important in context of RWC; its a particularly typical English attitude to suggest that, I can assure you that the results will be very important to the Argentinians.

And be sure Eddie Jones thinks exactly the same Gwlad....he'll be insisting on victories! Make no mistake about that!

GeordieFalcon wrote:And be sure Eddie Jones thinks exactly the same Gwlad....he'll be insisting on victories! Make no mistake about that!

good.

Gwlad wrote:I disagree that this tour's results aren't important in context of RWC; its a particularly typical English attitude to suggest that, I can assure you that the results will be very important to the Argentinians.

Of course they will be. Everyone raises their game when England are in town

Cyril wrote:

Gwlad wrote:I disagree that this tour's results aren't important in context of RWC; its a particularly typical English attitude to suggest that, I can assure you that the results will be very important to the Argentinians.

Of course they will be. Everyone raises their game when England are in town

yes this is true, look at the last RWC.

I think the team vs Argentina will look something like:

1) Genge
2) Hartley
3) Hill
4) Launch
5) Ewels
6) Robshaw
7) Haskell
8) Hughes
9) Care (if fit)
10) Ford
11) Solomona (I wouldn't pick him, but Jones will)
12) Slade
13) Marchant
14) May
15) Brown

as a base, with maybe a few players outside this starting one or the other game, the future to come from the bench with

Mullan, Collier/Williams, LCD, Isiekwe, any of the exciting backrowers, Maunder, Loz/Francis, James/Mallinder

As a base, as long as we don't mix it up too much, that is a good enough team to beat Argentina, the pack doesn't really look much weaker than the one we started in the 6N!

Gwlad wrote:

Cyril wrote:

Gwlad wrote:I disagree that this tour's results aren't important in context of RWC; its a particularly typical English attitude to suggest that, I can assure you that the results will be very important to the Argentinians.

Of course they will be. Everyone raises their game when England are in town

yes this is true, look at the last RWC.

It's been a rather different story with both Wales and Australia since. Maybe you need to re-raise your respective games?

Cyril wrote:

Gwlad wrote:

Cyril wrote:

Gwlad wrote:I disagree that this tour's results aren't important in context of RWC; its a particularly typical English attitude to suggest that, I can assure you that the results will be very important to the Argentinians.

Of course they will be. Everyone raises their game when England are in town

yes this is true, look at the last RWC.

It's been a rather different story with both Wales and Australia since. Maybe you need to re-raise your respective games?

Well England did take something from the RWC I suppose and their record couldn't actually have got worse!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/39874241
Gonna be on the beeb at least - so no dodgy streaming necessary

That is good news

Lions vs Crusaders, SA v France, England v Argentina, great day of rugby

king_carlos wrote:It's shaping up to be quite some BaaBaas squad. Maxime Medard has been named as well I believe. Vern Cotter could already field the below from those formally announced:

1.
2.Corey Flynn
3.Census Johnston
4.Jeremy Thrush
5.Patricio Albacete
6.Thierry Dusautoir
7.Steffon Armitage
8.Facundo Isa

9.Will Genia
10.

11.Maxime Medard
12.Bundee Aki
13.Yann David
14.Adam Ashley-Cooper
15.Charles Piutau

16.
17.
18.
19.Joe Tekori
20.
21.Ruan Pienaar
22.
23.

Barbarians twitter ran a poll asking fans who they'd like to see in the 10 shirt (I don't think it was ultimately for seleciton). A lot of people wrote in Andy Goode, but the 4 options were Burns, Gopperth, Carter and Evans. Will probably be one or two of them in the match day squad.

Gwlad wrote:I disagree that this tour's results aren't important in context of RWC; its a particularly typical English attitude to suggest that, I can assure you that the results will be very important to the Argentinians.

England beat Wales home and away in 2014 and 2015 and Australia at home in November 2014. Didn't stand us that well in context of the RWC.

robbo277 wrote:

king_carlos wrote:It's shaping up to be quite some BaaBaas squad. Maxime Medard has been named as well I believe. Vern Cotter could already field the below from those formally announced:

1.
2.Corey Flynn
3.Census Johnston
4.Jeremy Thrush
5.Patricio Albacete
6.Thierry Dusautoir
7.Steffon Armitage
8.Facundo Isa

9.Will Genia
10.

11.Maxime Medard
12.Bundee Aki
13.Yann David
14.Adam Ashley-Cooper
15.Charles Piutau

16.
17.
18.
19.Joe Tekori
20.
21.Ruan Pienaar
22.
23.

Barbarians twitter ran a poll asking fans who they'd like to see in the 10 shirt (I don't think it was ultimately for seleciton). A lot of people wrote in Andy Goode, but the 4 options were Burns, Gopperth, Carter and Evans. Will probably be one or two of them in the match day squad.

As his last ever match, I would LOVE for Nick Evans to be asked to play. He's a legend

robbo277 wrote:

Gwlad wrote:I disagree that this tour's results aren't important in context of RWC; its a particularly typical English attitude to suggest that, I can assure you that the results will be very important to the Argentinians.

England beat Wales home and away in 2014 and 2015 and Australia at home in November 2014. Didn't stand us that well in context of the RWC.

If Argentina win one test in this series they will see it as a huge victory. With France, USA or Canada and likely Samoa to face, Argentina, who frankly have done rather well at RWC compared to what you would expect from England in the last two RWCs, will think that they can win the group and France will be thinking the same. England have their work cut out and it starts in a couple of weeks.

Gwlad wrote:

robbo277 wrote:

Gwlad wrote:I disagree that this tour's results aren't important in context of RWC; its a particularly typical English attitude to suggest that, I can assure you that the results will be very important to the Argentinians.

England beat Wales home and away in 2014 and 2015 and Australia at home in November 2014. Didn't stand us that well in context of the RWC.

If Argentina win one test in this series they will see it as a huge victory. With France, USA or Canada and likely Samoa to face, Argentina, who frankly have done rather well at RWC compared to what you would expect from England in the last two RWCs, will think that they can win the group and France will be thinking the same. England have their work cut out and it starts in a couple of weeks.

I don't doubt that England have their work cut out and will need to be on form to top the group. Although if our stated aim is to win the World Cup, we'll have to be on top, top form, in which case the group stage would only be part of the puzzle. We're a top seed, and should avoid our fellow top seeds until the semi-finals, so that should be the minimum aim IMO, regardless of who we're drawn against.

However, I am to be convinced on the relevance of the result of the upcoming series in context of the Rugby World Cup.

Even if England lose 2-0 but have just a couple "success stories" from the young guns who can then come straight into the squad for the autumn (e.g. Underhill and Slade in two problem positions) - that wouldn't be the worst result in the world, and having those two push on betwen now and 2019 would put us in a better place.

Don't get me wrong, I hope England win for the sake of the series itself and will be upset if we don't, but I don't see how it will be relevant to 2019.

For the Barbarians game some of Genge, Haskell, Hughes , Isikwe, Launchberry, Mullan, Williams, Earle, Lozokowski, Maunder and Slade wont be available due to the Jeff final.
Do we know if the Lions who arent in the final will be? Id assume not as they are travelling the day after.

It could be a bit of a farce and is frasnkly a pretty ridiculous fixture.

robbo277 wrote:

propdavid_london wrote:Never mind how strong the Argentina squad will be - this BaaBaas side is shaping up to be very strong

Barbarians squad (players named so far):

Backs: Bundee Aki (Connacht), Adam Ashley-Cooper (Bordeaux Begles & Australia), Yann David (Toulouse and France), Will Genia (Stade Francais & Australia), Ruan Pienaar (Ulster & South Africa), Charles Piutau (Ulster & New Zealand).

Forwards: Patricio Albacete (Toulouse & Argentina), Steffon Armitage (Pau & England), Thierry Dusautoir (Toulouse & France), Corey Flynn (Glasgow Warriors & New Zealand), Facundo Isa (Lyon & Argentina), Census Johnston (Toulouse & Samoa), Joe Tekori (Toulouse & Samoa), Jeremy Thrush (Gloucester & New Zealand).

Isa is one of my favourite non-English players. Will moving to Toulon end his Argentina career?

It's already ended it. As soon as the deal was announced (mid Super Rugby season) Isa was banned from training with the Jaguares and removed from the Argentina Squad. Daniel Hourcade has also just reiterated noone playing overseas (ie not in Argentina or at least not in Super Rugby) will not be considered for the 2019 world cup.

I think it was mentioned on the other thread though, that Isa's contract runs until 2019, so he may just sneak back into the RWC squad.