England tour to Argentina

First topic message reminder :

It has been touched on in other threads but thought it was worth its own post.  
With the Lions touring to NZ there will be an opportunity for EJ to test some fresh talent.  Who would you like to see?

Interesting fact...the last time Wade was capped was the last tour to Argentina when he was also called into the Lions.
Clifford is now ruled out as having shoulder surgery - http://www.quins.co.uk/news/jack-clifford-injury-update/

I am working on the assumption that Lions call ups will be - Hartley, George, Cole, Itoje, Lawes, Mako V, Billy V, Launchbury, Youngs, Farrell, Joseph, Watson, Daly, Haskell, Brown......(there will be others I am sure and possibly some of these wont go).

But on that assumption and picking 2 in each position I would think that the tour selection group could be something like this - (from EPS and Saxons)
1. Marler, Genge
2. Taylor, LCD
3. Sinkler, Catt (not sure if he is TH or LH)
4. Kruis, Attwood
5. Ewels , ?
6. Robshaw, D.Armond
7. T.Harrison, T.Wood
8. Hughes, J.Chisholm
9. Care, Robson
10. Ford, Slade
11.J.May, Rokko
12.Ben Teo, ?
13.? ?
14.Yarde, Wade
15.Lozowski, Goode

Those are the chaps that I can think of from the current EPS and Saxons - There are a number that I am sure wont be included and a number from outside the squads that might have a run.
Guys like Solomona have been mentioned, Underhill, Beaumont, youngsters from U20s - Malinder, Marchant,
Who is a good option for 13?

UPDATED WITH SELECTED SQUAD -
Forwards
Will Collier (Harlequins, uncapped)
Luke Cowan-Dickie (Exeter Chiefs, 4 caps)
Ben Curry (Sale Sharks, uncapped)
Tom Curry (Sale Sharks, uncapped)
Charlie Ewels (Bath Rugby, 3 caps)
Ellis Genge (Leicester Tigers, 1 cap)
Dylan Hartley – captain (Northampton Saints, 84 caps)
James Haskell (Wasps, 75 caps)
Paul Hill (Northampton Saints, 5 caps)
Nathan Hughes (Wasps, 8 caps)
Nick Isiekwe (Saracens, uncapped)
Joe Launchbury (Wasps, 42 caps)
Matt Mullan (Wasps, 15 caps)
Chris Robshaw (Harlequins, 55 caps)
Sam Underhill (Ospreys/Bath Rugby, uncapped)
Harry Williams (Exeter Chiefs, uncapped)
Tom Wood (Northampton Saints, 50 caps)

Backs
Mike Brown – vice-captain (Harlequins, 60 caps)
Danny Care – vice captain (Harlequins, 71 caps)
Joe Cokanasiga (London Irish, uncapped)
Nathan Earle (Saracens, uncapped)
George Ford – vice captain (Bath Rugby, 35 caps)
Piers Francis (Auckland Blues/Northampton Saints, uncapped)
Sam James (Sale Sharks, uncapped)
Alex Lozowski (Saracens, uncapped)
Harry Mallinder (Northampton Saints, uncapped)
Joe Marchant (Harlequins, uncapped)
Jack Maunder (Exeter Chiefs, uncapped)
Jonny May (Gloucester Rugby, 25 caps)
Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs, 4 caps)
Denny Solomona (Sale Sharks, uncapped)

Unavailable for selection due to injury
Jack Clifford (Harlequins)
Sam Jones (Wasps)

England’s two-Test tour to Argentina
Estadio San Juan del Bicentenario, San Juan, Kick-off 16:15 (local time), Saturday 10th June
Estadio Brigadier General Estanislao Lopez, Santa Fe. Kick-off 16:15 (local time), Saturday 17th June

robbo277 wrote:

Gwlad wrote:

robbo277 wrote:

Gwlad wrote:I disagree that this tour's results aren't important in context of RWC; its a particularly typical English attitude to suggest that, I can assure you that the results will be very important to the Argentinians.

England beat Wales home and away in 2014 and 2015 and Australia at home in November 2014. Didn't stand us that well in context of the RWC.

If Argentina win one test in this series they will see it as a huge victory. With France, USA or Canada and likely Samoa to face, Argentina, who frankly have done rather well at RWC compared to what you would expect from England in the last two RWCs, will think that they can win the group and France will be thinking the same. England have their work cut out and it starts in a couple of weeks.

I don't doubt that England have their work cut out and will need to be on form to top the group. Although if our stated aim is to win the World Cup, we'll have to be on top, top form, in which case the group stage would only be part of the puzzle. We're a top seed, and should avoid our fellow top seeds until the semi-finals, so that should be the minimum aim IMO, regardless of who we're drawn against.

However, I am to be convinced on the relevance of the result of the upcoming series in context of the Rugby World Cup.

Even if England lose 2-0 but have just a couple "success stories" from the young guns who can then come straight into the squad for the autumn (e.g. Underhill and Slade in two problem positions) - that wouldn't be the worst result in the world, and having those two push on betwen now and 2019 would put us in a better place.

Don't get me wrong, I hope England win for the sake of the series itself and will be upset if we don't, but I don't see how it will be relevant to 2019.

Wales are in much the same position.

Their B squad is travelling to the face PIsland teams we would usually expect them to roll over *cough* with ease. With the reduced squad their is chance they will lose one or both of these games despite the tactical genuis of Howley.
How much of a bearing will that have on their world cup?
Sod all.

But then expectations are so much lower on them despite their relative success at the previous two.

England have lost to Argentina before on a Liuons year summer tour. They then beat them in their pool game at the following world cup.
Relevance is limited.

cascough wrote:

robbo277 wrote:

propdavid_london wrote:Never mind how strong the Argentina squad will be - this BaaBaas side is shaping up to be very strong

Barbarians squad (players named so far):

Backs: Bundee Aki (Connacht), Adam Ashley-Cooper (Bordeaux Begles & Australia), Yann David (Toulouse and France), Will Genia (Stade Francais & Australia), Ruan Pienaar (Ulster & South Africa), Charles Piutau (Ulster & New Zealand).

Forwards: Patricio Albacete (Toulouse & Argentina), Steffon Armitage (Pau & England), Thierry Dusautoir (Toulouse & France), Corey Flynn (Glasgow Warriors & New Zealand), Facundo Isa (Lyon & Argentina), Census Johnston (Toulouse & Samoa), Joe Tekori (Toulouse & Samoa), Jeremy Thrush (Gloucester & New Zealand).

Isa is one of my favourite non-English players. Will moving to Toulon end his Argentina career?

It's already ended it. As soon as the deal was announced (mid Super Rugby season) Isa was banned from training with the Jaguares and removed from the Argentina Squad. Daniel Hourcade has also just reiterated noone playing overseas (ie not in Argentina or at least not in Super Rugby) will not be considered for the 2019 world cup.

I think it was mentioned on the other thread though, that Isa's contract runs until 2019, so he may just sneak back into the RWC squad.

I didn't realise they were so quick to axe him, I thought they might play him this season and give him to Toulon burnt out!

I also read recently that he's out of contract at the end of the 2018/19 season, so if he signs with the Jaguares for 2020 Super Rugby I guess he'll be okay. Will be interesting to see if they unearth anyone else in the meanwhile.

Gooseberry wrote:For the Barbarians game some of Genge, Haskell, Hughes , Isikwe, Launchberry, Mullan, Williams, Earle, Lozokowski, Maunder and Slade wont be available due to the Jeff final.
Do we know if the Lions who arent in the final will be? Id assume not as they are travelling the day after.

It could be a bit of a farce and is frasnkly a pretty ridiculous fixture.

It is looking that way, and no we won't have access to any Lions.

SELECTED SQUAD - less potentially unavailable:
Forwards
Will Collier (Harlequins, uncapped)
Ben Curry (Sale Sharks, uncapped)
Tom Curry (Sale Sharks, uncapped)
Charlie Ewels (Bath Rugby, 3 caps)
Chris Robshaw (Harlequins, 55 caps)

Backs
Mike Brown – vice-captain (Harlequins, 60 caps)
Danny Care – vice captain (Harlequins, 71 caps)
Joe Cokanasiga (London Irish, uncapped) potentially playing for Irish on the Wednesday before
George Ford – vice captain (Bath Rugby, 35 caps)
Piers Francis (Auckland Blues/Northampton Saints, uncapped) will he be flown over?
Sam James (Sale Sharks, uncapped)
Joe Marchant (Harlequins, uncapped)
Denny Solomona (Sale Sharks, uncapped)

Potentially involved in league finals
Luke Cowan-Dickie (Exeter Chiefs, 4 caps)
Ellis Genge (Leicester Tigers, 1 cap)
James Haskell (Wasps, 75 caps)
Nathan Hughes (Wasps, 8 caps)
Nick Isiekwe (Saracens, uncapped)
Joe Launchbury (Wasps, 42 caps)
Matt Mullan (Wasps, 15 caps)
Sam Underhill (Ospreys/Bath Rugby, uncapped)
Harry Williams (Exeter Chiefs, uncapped)

Nathan Earle (Saracens, uncapped)
Alex Lozowski (Saracens, uncapped)
Jack Maunder (Exeter Chiefs, uncapped)
Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs, 4 caps)

Potentially involved in European play-offs
Dylan Hartley – captain (Northampton Saints, 84 caps)
Paul Hill (Northampton Saints, 5 caps)
Tom Wood (Northampton Saints, 50 caps)

Harry Mallinder (Northampton Saints, uncapped)
Jonny May (Gloucester Rugby, 25 caps)

Potenatial England team - just from the Quins, Bath and Sale boys:
1.
2.
3. Collier
4.
5. Ewels
6. Robshaw
7. Curry
8. Curry
9. Care
10. Ford
11.
12. James
13. Marchant
14. Solomona
15. Brown

You're then going to have all the Exeter or all the Sarries players available, so Cowan-Dickie, Williams, Maunder and Slade or Isiekwe, Earle and Lozowski.

We'll also have all the Wasps players or all the Leicester players, so Haskell, Hughes, Launchbury and Mullan or Genge.

Underhill is a maybe depending on whether the O's can win in Thomond.

We may either get the Northampton guys (Hartley, Hill, Wood and Mallinder) or Glouceester guys (May) or both depending on how the play-offs go.

A Wasps vs Saracens final, Ospreys going out, and Northampton getting to the Champions Cup play-off final would give us Genge at 1, Cowan-Dickie at 2, and May at 11 to slot into our team, Underhill and Slade to potentially take over for a Curry and James and push them onto the bench along with Williams, Maunder and Cokanasiga. That would give us:

1. Genge
2. Cowan-Dickie
3. Collier
4.
5. Ewels
6. Robshaw
7. Curry
8. Underhill
9. Care
10. Ford
11. May
12. Slade
13. Marchant
14. Solomona
15. Brown
16.
17.
18. Williams
19.
20. Curry
21. Maunder
22. James
23. Cokanasiga

We're still missing two locks, a hooker and a loose-head, but we could call in Premiership journeymen just to complete a squad. It may be a useful hit out for the players who haven't played in a while.

A lot depends on whether the tyro front rows can get parity with Argentina. Genge, Hill and Collier certainly have potential, but even with Hartley they are inexperienced as a unit.

Behind that, there is enough experience with Launch, Robshaw, Hughes, Ford etc that the new kids should be able to integrate well.

The biggest threat to England is actually likely to be reserve call ups to the Lions. While Robshaw and Brown are probably somewhere below Martyn and JPR Williams, respectively, in Garland's callup list, it's likely that at least a couple of the senior players will get a callup at some point, and that really would weaken the team.

Goose, won't Howley be with the Lions? I think the significance of the PI tour for Wales is to see what a new coach can do with the younger players.

Poorfour wrote:Goose, won't Howley be with the Lions? I think the significance of the PI tour for Wales is to see what a new coach can do with the younger players.

Aye. We know that currently the senior Welsh players under Gatland perform better in the 6N & vs NH opposition than they do for their regions or vs SH opposition, so it's an interesting experiment

Poorfour wrote:Goose, won't Howley be with the Lions? I think the significance of the PI tour for Wales is to see what a new coach can do with the younger players.

Good point. Wales should win both of their tour games.

The point I was making in amongst the cheap poinst was that even with Cuthbert available Wales are still nothing like the side that will play at the world cup, the same for the England side touring Argentina ( lets also expect more injury withdrawls from those needing to manage long term injury, and saracens players who have a crazy season end if they make the Jeff final) .

Trying to read any significance into a loss in regard to what happens at the world cup is idiotic.
But thats probably why Gwlad is pushing it.

Pete C (Kiwireddevil) wrote:

Poorfour wrote:Goose, won't Howley be with the Lions? I think the significance of the PI tour for Wales is to see what a new coach can do with the younger players.

Aye. We know that currently the senior Welsh players under Gatland perform better in the 6N & vs NH opposition than they do for their regions or vs SH opposition, so it's an interesting experiment

Im not sure its so much and interesting experiment so much as an A team tour. Which themsleves have fairly little relevance, hence England ditching them.

Poorfour wrote:A lot depends on whether the tyro front rows can get parity with Argentina. Genge, Hill and Collier certainly have potential, but even with Hartley they are inexperienced as a unit.

Behind that, there is enough experience with Launch, Robshaw, Hughes, Ford etc that the new kids should be able to integrate well.

The biggest threat to England is actually likely to be reserve call ups to the Lions. While Robshaw and Brown are probably somewhere below Martyn and JPR Williams, respectively, in Garland's callup list, it's likely that at least a couple of the senior players will get a callup at some point, and that really would weaken the team.

Losing Launchbury would be the biggest one, and with only 5 locks on the Lions tour and question marks over AWJ's fitness it could well happen if one goes down early. Care is another one we can't really cover all that satisfactorily.

If Hartley goes we're pretty we can call up Taylor, they surely can't come calling for our third choice props and back row we have enough options to cover a call-up.

Ford and Brown could get calls in the backs, but we have plenty of cover at 10 and 15, so I think we would be able to muddle through.

Gooseberry wrote:

Poorfour wrote:Goose, won't Howley be with the Lions? I think the significance of the PI tour for Wales is to see what a new coach can do with the younger players.

Good point. Wales should win both of their tour games.

The point I was making in amongst the cheap poinst was that even with Cuthbert available Wales are still nothing like the side that will play at the world cup, the same for the England side touring Argentina ( lets also expect more injury withdrawls from those needing to manage long term injury, and saracens players who have a crazy season end if they make the Jeff final) .

Trying to read any significance into a loss in regard to what happens at the world cup is idiotic.  
But thats probably why Gwlad is pushing it.

The only Saracens players in our squad aren't really first choices at the club, so should be able to manage a couple of games against Argentina.

It's some of the Saracens Lions you'd worry more for.

If we do have a few additional call ups in the squad it would be interesting to see if EJ will fly someone out from Home, or rely on some of the youth that he is taking out with him.

I would like to think that he will give the kids a chance, and then fly out the back up if necessary.
eg.
Care gets the Lions call....Maunder gets a start and he flys out Robson.
Hartly gets the nod.....LCD starts and he calls up Taylor.

We seem to have ample cover in the back row.......
12/13 as ever looks to be a bit iffy.

robbo277 wrote:

cascough wrote:

robbo277 wrote:

propdavid_london wrote:Never mind how strong the Argentina squad will be - this BaaBaas side is shaping up to be very strong

Barbarians squad (players named so far):

Backs: Bundee Aki (Connacht), Adam Ashley-Cooper (Bordeaux Begles & Australia), Yann David (Toulouse and France), Will Genia (Stade Francais & Australia), Ruan Pienaar (Ulster & South Africa), Charles Piutau (Ulster & New Zealand).

Forwards: Patricio Albacete (Toulouse & Argentina), Steffon Armitage (Pau & England), Thierry Dusautoir (Toulouse & France), Corey Flynn (Glasgow Warriors & New Zealand), Facundo Isa (Lyon & Argentina), Census Johnston (Toulouse & Samoa), Joe Tekori (Toulouse & Samoa), Jeremy Thrush (Gloucester & New Zealand).

Isa is one of my favourite non-English players. Will moving to Toulon end his Argentina career?

It's already ended it. As soon as the deal was announced (mid Super Rugby season) Isa was banned from training with the Jaguares and removed from the Argentina Squad. Daniel Hourcade has also just reiterated noone playing overseas (ie not in Argentina or at least not in Super Rugby) will not be considered for the 2019 world cup.

I think it was mentioned on the other thread though, that Isa's contract runs until 2019, so he may just sneak back into the RWC squad.

I didn't realise they were so quick to axe him, I thought they might play him this season and give him to Toulon burnt out!

I also read recently that he's out of contract at the end of the 2018/19 season, so if he signs with the Jaguares for 2020 Super Rugby I guess he'll be okay. Will be interesting to see if they unearth anyone else in the meanwhile.

He's actually playing for Lyon at the moment, who signed him up as injury cover for the remainder of the season.

propdavid_london wrote:If we do have a few additional call ups in the squad it would be interesting to see if EJ will fly someone out from Home, or rely on some of the youth that he is taking out with him.  

I would like to think that he will give the kids a chance, and then fly out the back up if necessary.
eg.
Care gets the Lions call....Maunder gets a start and he flys out Robson.
Hartly gets the nod.....LCD starts and he calls up Taylor.  

We seem to have ample cover in the back row.......
12/13 as ever looks to be a bit iffy.

We're highly unlikely to get anyone called up from the centres though, given we have 2 potential centre combinations in NZ (Farrell, Te'o, Joseph and Daly). You'd think Ringrose or Dunbar would be next cabs off the rank to the Lions.

robbo277 wrote:

Gwlad wrote:

robbo277 wrote:

Gwlad wrote:I disagree that this tour's results aren't important in context of RWC; its a particularly typical English attitude to suggest that, I can assure you that the results will be very important to the Argentinians.

England beat Wales home and away in 2014 and 2015 and Australia at home in November 2014. Didn't stand us that well in context of the RWC.

If Argentina win one test in this series they will see it as a huge victory. With France, USA or Canada and likely Samoa to face, Argentina, who frankly have done rather well at RWC compared to what you would expect from England in the last two RWCs, will think that they can win the group and France will be thinking the same. England have their work cut out and it starts in a couple of weeks.

I don't doubt that England have their work cut out and will need to be on form to top the group. Although if our stated aim is to win the World Cup, we'll have to be on top, top form, in which case the group stage would only be part of the puzzle. We're a top seed, and should avoid our fellow top seeds until the semi-finals, so that should be the minimum aim IMO, regardless of who we're drawn against.

However, I am to be convinced on the relevance of the result of the upcoming series in context of the Rugby World Cup.

Even if England lose 2-0 but have just a couple "success stories" from the young guns who can then come straight into the squad for the autumn (e.g. Underhill and Slade in two problem positions) - that wouldn't be the worst result in the world, and having those two push on betwen now and 2019 would put us in a better place.

Don't get me wrong, I hope England win for the sake of the series itself and will be upset if we don't, but I don't see how it will be relevant to 2019.

You know how it is. It won't be relevant if we win. It will if we lose.

Poorfour wrote:A lot depends on whether the tyro front rows can get parity with Argentina. Genge, Hill and Collier certainly have potential, but even with Hartley they are inexperienced as a unit.

Behind that, there is enough experience with Launch, Robshaw, Hughes, Ford etc that the new kids should be able to integrate well.

The biggest threat to England is actually likely to be reserve call ups to the Lions. While Robshaw and Brown are probably somewhere below Martyn and JPR Williams, respectively, in Garland's callup list, it's likely that at least a couple of the senior players will get a callup at some point, and that really would weaken the team.

If we win it'll be the back row that drags us through it and, as you say, our front row massively stepping up. I can see Genge going OK, but Hill? Not so sure. I also have no idea what people see in Ewels, and I'm slightly worried those two significantly weaken our front five.

The other issue is how callow our midfield looks. Yes there's plenty of potential but it's pretty light and very inexperienced. If Argentina target the scrum and our midfield I'll be worried.

How good is Undersell. I've never seen him play and he's been on the end of a few shellackings in recent weeks. Has he been promoted too early?

"How good is Undersell. I've never seen him play and he's been on the end of a few shellackings in recent weeks. Has he been promoted too early?"

A little tough on the lad. Ospreys also had numerous Internationals inc Tipuric, King , Smith etc playing and still have been humped. If you watch the Scarlets highlights, most of the tries are from great back play from deep, not much a flanker can do about that.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:"How good is Undersell. I've never seen him play and he's been on the end of a few shellackings in recent weeks. Has he been promoted too early?"

A little tough on the lad. Ospreys also had numerous Internationals inc Tipuric, King , Smith etc playing and still have been humped. If you watch the Scarlets highlights, most of the tries are from great back play from deep, not much a flanker can do about that.

Haha, that was a genuine typo by the way! No that really was a genuine question. Just wondering if he'd shone amongst dross or whether they've all been off form.

robbo277 wrote:

Gwlad wrote:

robbo277 wrote:

Gwlad wrote:I disagree that this tour's results aren't important in context of RWC; its a particularly typical English attitude to suggest that, I can assure you that the results will be very important to the Argentinians.

England beat Wales home and away in 2014 and 2015 and Australia at home in November 2014. Didn't stand us that well in context of the RWC.

If Argentina win one test in this series they will see it as a huge victory. With France, USA or Canada and likely Samoa to face, Argentina, who frankly have done rather well at RWC compared to what you would expect from England in the last two RWCs, will think that they can win the group and France will be thinking the same. England have their work cut out and it starts in a couple of weeks.

I don't doubt that England have their work cut out and will need to be on form to top the group. Although if our stated aim is to win the World Cup, we'll have to be on top, top form, in which case the group stage would only be part of the puzzle. We're a top seed, and should avoid our fellow top seeds until the semi-finals, so that should be the minimum aim IMO, regardless of who we're drawn against.

However, I am to be convinced on the relevance of the result of the upcoming series in context of the Rugby World Cup.

Even if England lose 2-0 but have just a couple "success stories" from the young guns who can then come straight into the squad for the autumn (e.g. Underhill and Slade in two problem positions) - that wouldn't be the worst result in the world, and having those two push on betwen now and 2019 would put us in a better place.

Don't get me wrong, I hope England win for the sake of the series itself and will be upset if we don't, but I don't see how it will be relevant to 2019.

fair enough but in terms of strength in depth I would say a 2-0 loss would be fairly dire and IMO unlikely. I expect Argentina to win the first test and lose the 2nd

Expecting an England shorn of 16 players to have parity with a team who with home advantage are ranked the equivalent of 5th in the world is a pretty high compliment coming from you, Gwlad.

I am hoping for two wins, but to be honest I think two good performances is a more realistic target, especially if we get late callups to the Lions.

Poorfour wrote:Expecting an England shorn of 16 players to have parity with a team who with home advantage are ranked the equivalent of 5th in the world is a pretty high compliment coming from you, Gwlad.

I am hoping for two wins, but to be honest I think two good performances is a more realistic target, especially if we get late callups to the Lions.

Well I think Argentina often blow themselves out. They've replaced France as the mercurial side who may produce one week and then appear unrecognizable the next. And I think they will win the first test perhaps even comfortably, but I just don't see an Eddie jones England losing twice on the bounce and figure they'll grind out a win any which way they can in test 2, Lions or not. Have to really.

Well, Ireland and then Argentina would be twice on the bounce, technically. But I get your point.

Poorfour wrote:Well, Ireland and then Argentina would be twice on the bounce, technically. But I get your point.

Okay well of course that underlines my belief even more. Every chance they'll go 2 down but no way 3. England might be taking a 2nd string squad but with Hartley, Launchbury, Robshaw, Haskell, Wood, Care, Ford, Brown, May etc the core is still very much First XV or thereabouts.

Barring wood care and may yes. And probably for Jones but not for me Launchbury.

Why not Launchbury?

Agree on Launchbury, he's our 4th best option for me. This is kind of backed up with the other away 3 with the Lions.

With Gatland in charge, I'm not convinced that Lions selections back anything whatsoever up

So you're saying that Launchbury isn't first choice for England? Does beg the question then why the apparent outrage at his exclusion for the Lions. Anyway he will be key in Argentina as a foundation for the tight 5.

You'd have to ask jones why he doesn't favour Launchbury. Not sure there has been outrage over his non selection. I find it mighty strange he's been left out as he's the best locknut the nh for me. But back to the point there's possibly 5 of the first choice 15 missing with more of the squad with that. I'd like to win both argentine tests but I'd more like underhill, LCD slade etc really put their foot in the door.

I think there's a clear double standard, there's been plenty of outrage about he non selection of players like Launchbury, Brown, Haskell, Robshaw and Hartley but we're now saying that one of those players is ranked at 5th in the England set up. I rate him much higher and of those listed he is the only one who I think had a justified case of inclusion after the 6 Nations. Seems to indicate all English players are rated higher than those of other nations full stop in terms of Lions selection.

I expect Underhill will make an impact quickly and I have been waiting for Slade to return as he is a class act. Performances are everything but 1 win is mandatory.

Well england are the best nh team so it's not strange you rate their players higher.

No, its you rate them higher. I rate them on individual performances, some are class acts, others standing on the shoulders of their team mates. Launcbury is an exception, the others left behind, like Brown, rate themselves far too highly and after the 6 Nations appear entitled, so it seems do you.

Good luck in Argentina. Eddie thinks he'll strangle 'unstructured' Argentina into 2-0 loss so I expect a fully conservative pick from him with little opportunity to develop players other than where he is forced to do so. I expect a 1-1 draw, at best.

I'm a bit of an outlier on this even among England fans, but I can see why Launchbury wasn't included and I largely agree with it. Launchbury isn't a strong lineout operator, certainly not compared to the locks that Gatland has chosen, and the Chicago game highlighted how much New Zealand's game is built around their lineout.

Of the others, Haskell has done a good job in an unconventional back row but lacks the decision-making ability on the pitch to ever have been a real contender.

Hartley and Brown can count themselves unlucky. They play in positions where there's no standout option but their style of play doesn't suit what Gatland wants.

That goes many times over for Robshaw. Unlucky not to be the style of player that Gatland wants. Unlucky to be playing (again) in the same position as Gatland's preferred captain. Unlucky to be injured at the wrong time, and to come back one week too late (if he'd been able to play in Dublin, I think it would have made a difference to both England and his own chances). Unlucky to have worked incredibly hard to return in form and still be overlooked for players who either aren't fit or aren't in form.

Gwlad wrote:I think there's a clear double standard, there's been plenty of outrage about he non selection of players like Launchbury, Brown, Haskell, Robshaw and Hartley but we're now saying that one of those players is ranked at 5th in the England set up. I rate him much higher and of those listed he is the only one who I think had a justified case of inclusion after the 6 Nations. Seems to indicate all English players are rated higher than those of other nations full stop in terms of Lions selection.

I expect Underhill will make an impact quickly and I have been waiting for Slade to return as he is a class act. Performances are everything but 1 win is mandatory.

I think the debate is that Kaunchbury isn't ranked 5th (surely it's 4th by the longest stretch anyway) by the fans in general but he does seem to be ranked 3rd at best by Jones based on who he has selected with all options fit (which to be fair hasn't been for a while)

Personally I think it's more accurate to say that Jones imagines his locks to fit into defined 4 or 5 roles and Launch is second behind Itoje as a all action lock and Lawes is behind Kruis as a more lineout focussed lock

Gwlad wrote:No, its you rate them higher. I rate them on individual performances, some are class acts, others standing on the shoulders of their team mates. Launcbury is an exception, the others left behind, like Brown, rate themselves far too highly and after the 6 Nations appear entitled, so it seems do you.

Good luck in Argentina. Eddie thinks he'll strangle 'unstructured' Argentina into 2-0 loss so I expect a fully conservative pick from him with little opportunity to develop players other than where he is forced to do so. I expect a 1-1 draw, at best.

We'll be fine.

Poorfour wrote:I'm a bit of an outlier on this even among England fans, but I can see why Launchbury wasn't included and I largely agree with it. Launchbury isn't a strong lineout operator, certainly not compared to the locks that Gatland has chosen, and the Chicago game highlighted how much New Zealand's game is built around their lineout.

Of the others, Haskell has done a good job in an unconventional back row but lacks the decision-making ability on the pitch to ever have been a real contender.

Hartley and Brown can count themselves unlucky. They play in positions where there's no standout option but their style of play doesn't suit what Gatland wants.

That goes many times over for Robshaw. Unlucky not to be the style of player that Gatland wants. Unlucky to be playing (again) in the same position as Gatland's preferred captain. Unlucky to be injured at the wrong time, and to come back one week too late (if he'd been able to play in Dublin, I think it would have made a difference to both England and his own chances). Unlucky to have worked incredibly hard to return in form and still be overlooked for players who either aren't fit or aren't in form.

Except Hogg and Halfpenny.

Gwlad as ever proving Bron was right.

lostinwales wrote:Gwlad as ever proving Bron was right.

More bad sportsmanship, its becoming an epidemic!

Gwlad wrote:

Poorfour wrote:I'm a bit of an outlier on this even among England fans, but I can see why Launchbury wasn't included and I largely agree with it. Launchbury isn't a strong lineout operator, certainly not compared to the locks that Gatland has chosen, and the Chicago game highlighted how much New Zealand's game is built around their lineout.

Of the others, Haskell has done a good job in an unconventional back row but lacks the decision-making ability on the pitch to ever have been a real contender.

Hartley and Brown can count themselves unlucky. They play in positions where there's no standout option but their style of play doesn't suit what Gatland wants.

That goes many times over for Robshaw. Unlucky not to be the style of player that Gatland wants. Unlucky to be playing (again) in the same position as Gatland's preferred captain. Unlucky to be injured at the wrong time, and to come back one week too late (if he'd been able to play in Dublin, I think it would have made a difference to both England and his own chances). Unlucky to have worked incredibly hard to return in form and still be overlooked for players who either aren't fit or aren't in form.

Except Hogg and Halfpenny.

Hogg, for sure. Halfpenny in 2017 is definitely no consensus

Hogg is outstanding in attack but has more defensive flaws than most of the other contenders. Halfpenny is a shadow of the player he once was and no longer differentiated by his boot; he's arguably not even the best Welsh fullback at the moment.

ChequeredJersey wrote:

Gwlad wrote:

Poorfour wrote:I'm a bit of an outlier on this even among England fans, but I can see why Launchbury wasn't included and I largely agree with it. Launchbury isn't a strong lineout operator, certainly not compared to the locks that Gatland has chosen, and the Chicago game highlighted how much New Zealand's game is built around their lineout.

Of the others, Haskell has done a good job in an unconventional back row but lacks the decision-making ability on the pitch to ever have been a real contender.

Hartley and Brown can count themselves unlucky. They play in positions where there's no standout option but their style of play doesn't suit what Gatland wants.

That goes many times over for Robshaw. Unlucky not to be the style of player that Gatland wants. Unlucky to be playing (again) in the same position as Gatland's preferred captain. Unlucky to be injured at the wrong time, and to come back one week too late (if he'd been able to play in Dublin, I think it would have made a difference to both England and his own chances). Unlucky to have worked incredibly hard to return in form and still be overlooked for players who either aren't fit or aren't in form.

Except Hogg and Halfpenny.

Hogg, for sure. Halfpenny in 2017 is definitely no consensus

Just turned in another imperious display for Toulon

His worth to the Lions is incalculable. Metronomic boot, superb defender and often creates or finishes tries. No comparison between him and Brown who beats a defender and then carries into contact while also being a temperamental player who is easily rattled. NZ would have had him for breakfast.

pretty big Lions shadow! agree to differ, big game player and winning lion.

Halfpenny making the squad isn't particularly ridiculous IMO.

Hogg and Williams are playing a mile ahead of him but as a third he has his flaws and isn't playing to his old levels, the same as Brown and Kearney.

If he makes the matchday squad then there will fairly be a lot of rolled eyes though. There are equal goal kickers in the squad, better full backs and better wingers. Halfpenny's pace hasn't looked the same after a lot of injuries. Similarly to Roberts his attacking abilities seem to have regressed after being asked to play very conservatively for so long also. A shame.

I dont think anyone thinks he's guaranteed to start at 15 in the Test but he's a particularly good back 3 cover who kicks superbly and is defensively solid. Its Hoggs to lose but the debate over his defensive issues isn't one we can have in the 1st Test. Williams could be an option but not so sure Gats sees him as one.

I still think Half has a lot to offer in big games but clearly that isn't a popular view. Given the right attacking opportunities he is excellent.

You're trying to argue against a point not made by myself.

Gwlad wrote:His worth to the Lions is incalculable.

Because you can't divide by zero?

Gwlad wrote:I dont think anyone thinks he's guaranteed to start at 15 in the Test but he's a particularly good back 3 cover who kicks superbly and is defensively solid. Its Hoggs to lose but the debate over his defensive issues isn't one we can have in the 1st Test. Williams could be an option but not so sure Gats sees him as one.

I still think Half has a lot to offer in big games but clearly that isn't a popular view. Given the right attacking opportunities he is excellent was OK.

Small change.

By the way I thought this was a thread about England in Argentina. If you want to talk about the Lions maybe start a new thread. What with it being big (rugby) news you never know there might be a few threads on the subject already

I'd also add that I do rate 1/2p. When he first appeared he was a bit like Nowell is now. Aggressive, not the quickest but had a habit of making an impact and scoring tries. Then came the switch to FB. Great kicking, superb attituide. In the worst Wales games he seemed to be the only guy still trying. Solid defense if not the most skilled (wrecking his shoulder keeping England out late in the game when it made no difference comes to mind). But the attacking threat all but disappeared. Then came the injuries and all the rest.

If you want an attacking full back qualified for the Lions playing in France who has a great reputation out there you could look at Nick Abendanon (and nobody is mentioning him seriously)

Abendanon is too mistake prone and inconsistent. Yeah sometimes he looks fantastic but sometimes hideous.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zflocS43Ml4

Wasps-Sarries final

1.Genge 2.Hartley 3.Hill 4.Isiekwe 5.Ewels 6.Robshaw 7.Curry/Underhill 8.Curry?
9.Care 10.Ford 11.May 12.Slade 13.Marchant 14.Cokanasiga 15.Brown

Wasps-Chiefs final

1.Genge 2.Hartley 3.Hill 4.Isiekwe 5.Ewels 6.Robshaw 7.Curry/Underhill 8.Curry?
9.Care 10.Ford 11.May 12.Mallinder/James 13.Marchant 14.Earle 15.Brown

Tigers-Sarries final

1.Mullan 2.Hartley 3.Hill 4.Launchbury 5.Ewels 6.Robshaw 7.Haskell 8.Hughes
9.Care 10.Ford 11.May 12.Slade 13.Marchant 14.Cokanasiga 15.Brown

Tigers-Chiefs final

1.Mullan 2.Hartley 3.Hill 4.Launchbury 5.Ewels 6.Robshaw 7.Haskell 8.Hughes
9.Care 10.Ford 11.May 12.Mallinder/James 13.Marchant 14.Earle 15.Brown

If Wasps make the final then the squad has no real option other than Hughes at number 8.

With only three locks in the squad both Wasps and Sarries will need to miss the final for them all to be available - if Isiekwe weren't in Sarries 23 for the final then would he be available for the Baabaas?

Underhill's availability is dependent on the Munster-Ospreys semi-final.

If Chiefs make the final then another hooker will be needed to bench instead of LCD. Similarly another scrum-half to bench instead of Maunder.

Isiekwe would be unlikely to make the Sarries match squad, but would have trained with them all week.

Also a possibility that Saints/Glaws players could be involved that weekend in th eChampions Cup play-off final.