England tour to Argentina

First topic message reminder :

It has been touched on in other threads but thought it was worth its own post.  
With the Lions touring to NZ there will be an opportunity for EJ to test some fresh talent.  Who would you like to see?

Interesting fact...the last time Wade was capped was the last tour to Argentina when he was also called into the Lions.
Clifford is now ruled out as having shoulder surgery - http://www.quins.co.uk/news/jack-clifford-injury-update/

I am working on the assumption that Lions call ups will be - Hartley, George, Cole, Itoje, Lawes, Mako V, Billy V, Launchbury, Youngs, Farrell, Joseph, Watson, Daly, Haskell, Brown......(there will be others I am sure and possibly some of these wont go).

But on that assumption and picking 2 in each position I would think that the tour selection group could be something like this - (from EPS and Saxons)
1. Marler, Genge
2. Taylor, LCD
3. Sinkler, Catt (not sure if he is TH or LH)
4. Kruis, Attwood
5. Ewels , ?
6. Robshaw, D.Armond
7. T.Harrison, T.Wood
8. Hughes, J.Chisholm
9. Care, Robson
10. Ford, Slade
11.J.May, Rokko
12.Ben Teo, ?
13.? ?
14.Yarde, Wade
15.Lozowski, Goode

Those are the chaps that I can think of from the current EPS and Saxons - There are a number that I am sure wont be included and a number from outside the squads that might have a run.
Guys like Solomona have been mentioned, Underhill, Beaumont, youngsters from U20s - Malinder, Marchant,
Who is a good option for 13?

UPDATED WITH SELECTED SQUAD -
Forwards
Will Collier (Harlequins, uncapped)
Luke Cowan-Dickie (Exeter Chiefs, 4 caps)
Ben Curry (Sale Sharks, uncapped)
Tom Curry (Sale Sharks, uncapped)
Charlie Ewels (Bath Rugby, 3 caps)
Ellis Genge (Leicester Tigers, 1 cap)
Dylan Hartley – captain (Northampton Saints, 84 caps)
James Haskell (Wasps, 75 caps)
Paul Hill (Northampton Saints, 5 caps)
Nathan Hughes (Wasps, 8 caps)
Nick Isiekwe (Saracens, uncapped)
Joe Launchbury (Wasps, 42 caps)
Matt Mullan (Wasps, 15 caps)
Chris Robshaw (Harlequins, 55 caps)
Sam Underhill (Ospreys/Bath Rugby, uncapped)
Harry Williams (Exeter Chiefs, uncapped)
Tom Wood (Northampton Saints, 50 caps)

Backs
Mike Brown – vice-captain (Harlequins, 60 caps)
Danny Care – vice captain (Harlequins, 71 caps)
Joe Cokanasiga (London Irish, uncapped)
Nathan Earle (Saracens, uncapped)
George Ford – vice captain (Bath Rugby, 35 caps)
Piers Francis (Auckland Blues/Northampton Saints, uncapped)
Sam James (Sale Sharks, uncapped)
Alex Lozowski (Saracens, uncapped)
Harry Mallinder (Northampton Saints, uncapped)
Joe Marchant (Harlequins, uncapped)
Jack Maunder (Exeter Chiefs, uncapped)
Jonny May (Gloucester Rugby, 25 caps)
Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs, 4 caps)
Denny Solomona (Sale Sharks, uncapped)

Unavailable for selection due to injury
Jack Clifford (Harlequins)
Sam Jones (Wasps)

England’s two-Test tour to Argentina
Estadio San Juan del Bicentenario, San Juan, Kick-off 16:15 (local time), Saturday 10th June
Estadio Brigadier General Estanislao Lopez, Santa Fe. Kick-off 16:15 (local time), Saturday 17th June

LondonTiger wrote:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zflocS43Ml4

I still feel sorry for Abendanon watching that. I actually thought he had an excellent game!

1st tackle from Manu - Dumb pass from Banahan that blindsided Bendy. Best tackle in the video alongside Bendy's try saver on Agulla.

2nd tackle from Alesana - Good option from Bendy to beat Manu with the outside arc, draw Alesana, give to Banahan. Then he's hit arguably late and no arms.

3rd hit from Alesana - Good line on the outside, good ball from Butch James but then Bendy has nowhere to go and hits the brick wall of Alesana. Still retains quick ball though.

4th hit from Alesana - Pish pass from Butch James that grubbers along the ground, Bendy tries to clean it up and gets hammered by Alesana whilst trying to gather.

5th attempted tackle - Goes straight between Manu and Alesana with a lovely show and go.

6th hit from Alesana - Hospital pass from Vesty.

7th tackle from Abendanon - Textbook covering tackle on Agulla at a point in the game when many full backs wouldn't have had that left in the tank.

8th tackle from Mafi - Nothing much to talk about, if it hadn't been in that game it probably wouldn't have been seen ever again!

Theres players from around the clubs that can fill in if required before the tour.

KC - it was a well deserved round of applause that Bendy got as he left the pitch. What most impressed me that day was the way he kept coming back. Sure as a player he was too prone to brainfarts, or sudden loss of form, to ever be a genuine international contender - but supremely talented and as that vid showed brave.



GF - I agree that there are other players available who can be drafted in for the Barbarians game. I suspect that Jones will name a squad immediately after the semis and it will include players not going to Argentina.

Bendy certainly got some treatment in that game. Unlikely to be involved anywhere though as will have club commitments probably up to the end of the French season.

Really interesting to see Steff Armitage in the BaaBaas side - will be good to see if he still it....
We are likely to see a very young and experimental England side play an extremely experienced and exciting BaaBaas squad.
It might actually be worth getting tickets for this one....

I think if you rate Abendanon for international rugby you are clueless.

I am not sure how we got onto talking about Abendanon......guy had/has some skills, but was never going to be picked as international. Had too many brain fart moments.

However, Gwlad - everyone is entitled to their opinions.

Back on topic of the England tour and BaaBaas game.....
While England will be hugely inexperienced they should still be able to field a pretty exciting back line at Twickenham.

Just following up on lostinwales suggestion regarding Abendanon after he had a tantrum about Brown.

Will Solomona start in a Brown back 3 with Yarde/May or Roko

I would imagine a back 3 of Brown, Solomona and May would be likely for the BaaBaas game.
Cant see any reason baring injury why those guys wouldn't be available. If May is injured in tonights game then I guess Yarde is the one that would be called up (as involved in recent S&C sessions).
Cockanasinga may well be involved with Irish's playoff games....

I think we'll be able to field a pretty exciting team to be honest Prop D....though yes...VERY inexperienced.

It'll be a good game for them to play against some of the top players.

However ill be looking for a bit of attitude from the youngsters as well...like Underhill, the Currys etc etc if they get on. Complete respect for the opposition, but at the same time, a little bit of arrogance to say yes I know who you are...but im the new breed and you have to try and cope with me!

Gwlad wrote:Will Solomona start in a Brown back 3 with Yarde/May or Roko

Marcus Watson should have been involved in this game / squad. What a cracking winger he is!

Agree that Marcus has looked very good. I am sure that EJ will give him a shot at some point.
I know he is on the Lions tour, but his older brother hasn't looked amazing of late (only a blip in form and returning from injury etc.)
But no one in EJs squad is safe from the drop........England are pretty blessed with decent finishers at the moment, and guys will have to do something pretty special to stand out for the selectors.

Isnt Marcus older that Anthony?

For the record I wouldn't pick Abendanon either.

What is interesting is the difference in attitude towards him and to a certain Welsh FB with regards to some event that happens to take place at the same time as the England tour to Argentina.

Abendanon would've been capped years ago had he not picked up injuries at the wrong time. Guys like Armitage leapfrogged him and made the most of their chances.
That said he's never been more than a good club player and the criticism on him being on the lower end of the hard man scale isn't unfair.
He's certainly not going to be on the radar for England or the lions when there's multiple current test players available who could cover the position.

Whilst it is going to be a very under strength side that didn't stop them spanking the baabaas in the last lions season. It's frankly a bit of a joke fixture and I'm glad they don't hand out paper caps for it.

Would like to see Cipriani and hell if it were possible Burgess play mind.

Scrum half heinze has been called up for training. Qualifies by grandparent but surely weeeeeelll down the list for touring.

GeordieFalcon wrote:Isnt Marcus older that Anthony?

Your quite right......just looked it up. Always thought Marcus looked a bit younger!

No 7&1/2 wrote:Scrum half heinze has been called up for training. Qualifies by grandparent but surely weeeeeelll down the list for touring.

I do not get that one at all, he's pretty dire.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Scrum half heinze has been called up for training. Qualifies by grandparent but surely weeeeeelll down the list for touring.

Well, I guess that for various reasons Robson, Simpson, Maunder, Townsend, Chudley, Wigglesworth, Spencer, Taylor, Youngs, Harrison & Lee Dickson are all unavailable. Mickey Young was still available though.

Whatever, all I can say is FFS.


Full squad:

Forwards: Josh Beaumont (Sale Sharks), Rob Buchanan (Harlequins), Will Collier (Harlequins), Ben Curry (Sale Sharks), Tom Curry (Sale Sharks), Tom Ellis (Bath Rugby), Charlie Ewels (Bath Rugby), Jamal Ford-Robinson (Bristol) , Ross Harrison (Sale Sharks), Chris Robshaw (Harlequins), Nick Schonert (Worcester Warriors), Jack Singleton (Worcester Warriors), Will Spencer (Worcester Warriors), Mark Wilson (Newcastle Falcons).

Backs: Mike Brown (Harlequins), Danny Care (Harlequins), George Ford (Bath Rugby), Mike Haley (Sale Sharks), Willi Heinz (Gloucester), Sam James (Sale Sharks), Joe Marchant (Harlequins), Jonny May (Gloucester), Ryan Mills (Worcester Warriors), Denny Solomona (Sale Sharks), Jason Woodward (Bristol Rugby), Marland Yarde (Harlequins)

Maybe Care isn't as fit as EJ would like!
Robson and Simpson are both with Wasps, Maunder may be involved with Chiefs playoffs.......So I guess Eddie needs an extra 9 to run the practice plays - that, and he is an experienced player that might be able to offer some 'kiwi' insight.

LondonTiger wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Scrum half heinze has been called up for training. Qualifies by grandparent but surely weeeeeelll down the list for touring.

Well, I guess that for various reasons Robson, Simpson, Maunder, Townsend, Chudley, Wigglesworth, Spencer, Taylor, Youngs, Harrison & Lee Dickson are all unavailable. Mickey Young was still available though.

Whatever, all I can say is FFS.


Full squad:

Forwards: Josh Beaumont (Sale Sharks), Rob Buchanan (Harlequins), Will Collier (Harlequins), Ben Curry (Sale Sharks), Tom Curry (Sale Sharks), Tom Ellis (Bath Rugby), Charlie Ewels (Bath Rugby), Jamal Ford-Robinson (Bristol) , Ross Harrison (Sale Sharks), Chris Robshaw (Harlequins), Nick Schonert (Worcester Warriors), Jack Singleton (Worcester Warriors), Will Spencer (Worcester Warriors), Mark Wilson (Newcastle Falcons).

Backs: Mike Brown (Harlequins), Danny Care (Harlequins), George Ford (Bath Rugby), Mike Haley (Sale Sharks), Willi Heinz (Gloucester), Sam James (Sale Sharks), Joe Marchant (Harlequins), Jonny May (Gloucester), Ryan Mills (Worcester Warriors), Denny Solomona (Sale Sharks), Jason Woodward (Bristol Rugby), Marland Yarde (Harlequins)

Is this the squad just for the Baabaas game? Or is this the "week one" squad, and then they'll add losing semi-finalists? My reading from the BBC article is that it sounds like a training camp, with the final Barbarians squad to be finalised.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/39917336

Very few experienced players in there, especially in the forwards. After Robshaw, it's only Ewels and Beaumont with any previous squad experience at all.

Backs are a little bit better with Care, Ford, May and Brown all regulars, and Yarde, Haley and Marchant with squad experience.

True, I should have said training camp.

My guess is that losing semi-finalists will be added to become the squad for the Barbarians fixture, with some players thus dropping out.

Yeah, I just read this as another training squad. Play-off and finals players will filter back in as they become available.

Missed your comment LT.....as you said.

LondonTiger wrote:True, I should have said training camp.

My guess is that losing semi-finalists will be added to become the squad for the Barbarians fixture, with some players thus dropping out.

Thanks, I wasn't sure which is why I checked the BBC article. I was kinda sweating the fact that we might have a squad made up purely from those players representing England at Twickenham. Capped game or not, playing for England at Twickenham should be earned.

Agree playing fir England should be earned but I'm well chuffed to see Mark Wilson in that training camp. I doubt he'll be selected for the games but he deserves the recognition. Highest tackler in the league again.

He would do a great job if called upon.

Not impressed with the Heinz inclusion, it just opens us up to ridicule. I get that there is a long list of unavailable players but why bother with a 30 year old New Zealand journeyman? He hasn't really got a hope of getting a cap, would have preferred to see someone like Chris Cook (Bath) or Jonny Arr (Worcester) get a chance. They are solid English Premiership players who would be fine to back up Danny Care is a crisis. They at least wouldn't have raised any eyebrows outside of England.

Cumbrian wrote:Not impressed with the Heinz inclusion, it just opens us up to ridicule.  I get that there is a long list of unavailable players but why bother with a 30 year old New Zealand journeyman?  He hasn't really got a hope of getting a cap, would have preferred to see someone like Chris Cook (Bath) or Jonny Arr (Worcester) get a chance. They are solid English Premiership players who would be fine to back up Danny Care is a crisis.  They at least wouldn't have raised any eyebrows outside of England.

Just shows that our strength in depth still needs work with the amount of foreign born players picked.

Jonny Arr and Chris Cook wouldn't exactly feel me with confidence either.

Hard to look at strength in depth when you eliminate players from the four best teams from contention.

Robson, Simpson, Maunder, Townsend, Chudley, Wigglesworth, Spencer, Taylor, Youngs, Harrison & Lee Dickson

After that bunch are counted out, I think its tough to say strength in depth needs working on

Edit - or what LT said

As ever it's the strength rather than depth. I have no doubts the majority of those players can be very good for England but there isn't enough time to blood them all ie at least 10 games. Jones seems to have identified maunder as the guy he's giving a go to.

Chris Cooke probably has a worse disciplinary record than Hartley! (well, perhaps not) but he plays on the edge of legality and on the games that I have seen - probably should have been carded more than he has...

beshocked wrote:

Cumbrian wrote:Not impressed with the Heinz inclusion, it just opens us up to ridicule.  I get that there is a long list of unavailable players but why bother with a 30 year old New Zealand journeyman?  He hasn't really got a hope of getting a cap, would have preferred to see someone like Chris Cook (Bath) or Jonny Arr (Worcester) get a chance. They are solid English Premiership players who would be fine to back up Danny Care is a crisis.  They at least wouldn't have raised any eyebrows outside of England.

Just shows that our strength in depth still needs work with the amount of foreign born players picked.

Jonny Arr and Chris Cook wouldn't exactly feel me with confidence either.

You wouldn't need to have confidence in them, they would be unlikely to ever really get capped apart from perhaps a the Barbarian's match where Danny Care will surely start anyway. My point is that Heinz seems like a somewhat needless stick to beat ourselves with.

Cumbrian wrote:My point is that Heinz seems like a somewhat needless stick to beat ourselves with.

Agree 100%. With arguably 10 better SHs unavailable due to games this weekend, Heinz will disappear quicker than a mars bar at a slimming world convention. Even with that number unavailable it does seem rather perverse to call up a kiwi in his 30s to act as opposition during training.

LondonTiger wrote:

Cumbrian wrote:My point is that Heinz seems like a somewhat needless stick to beat ourselves with.

Agree 100%. With arguably 10 better SHs unavailable due to games this weekend, Heinz will disappear quicker than a mars bar at a slimming world convention. Even with that number unavailable it does seem rather perverse to call up a kiwi in his 30s to act as opposition during training.

Probably representative of what they will be facing with the Baabaas.

LondonTiger wrote:

Cumbrian wrote:My point is that Heinz seems like a somewhat needless stick to beat ourselves with.

Agree 100%. With arguably 10 better SHs unavailable due to games this weekend, Heinz will disappear quicker than a mars bar at a slimming world convention. Even with that number unavailable it does seem rather perverse to call up a kiwi in his 30s to act as opposition during training.

+2

Call up an academy prospect who has just missed out on the u20s. Even call up Alex Mitchell and/or Harry Randall from the u20s to give them some exposure to the senior set-up. It's something that the All Blacks do quite regularly to give a talented teenager a great experience.

After that there is then the option of looking at one of the many talented young 9s in the Championship. It is after all a supposedly professional league that is in desperate need of a boost given it's current funding issues and constant questions over it's status.

I'm genuinely puzzled at the amount of traffic the selection of Heinz has garnered. Eddie is clearly picky about his scrum halves, this is a non-cap game before a tour and it's likely that most of his top picks have other games or other things to worry about.

Eddie has his reasons, no doubt. My best guess is that he has 3 or 4 players he sees as ready for the squad but they are either in it or unavailable. Below that there are a range of players who have their marching orders as to what to improve to get a shot... but he doesn't feel that any of them is yet close enough to warrant a closer look, and doesn't want to discourage anyone by picking someone else.

Heinz looks to me to be a choice designed to send a message that Eddie is not playing favourites but he's waiting for a contender to break clear of the pack.

But is it really worth all this angst? Standing in the line in training for a BaaBaas game is hardly going to make anyone's career. And being left out won't break it.

I am fully aware that a plethora of SHs were unavailable. I know this is just training and he will soon be gone. However this is the 4th Kiwi called up this season with minimal connection to England. Ignoring the fact that we are looking at guys who could not cut the mustard in NZ, it starts to look as if EJ does not give a flying poop about national identity. Of course he cares only about winning, but as a fan I want a national team that represents the national.

Other countries fans are perfectly within their rights to point, snigger and mock as the "richest" rugby nation has to relay on other countries rejects..

I have some questions to ask who are England playing?the Jaguars?the NH
based players?or the America`s Cup side? which?
Who organised it and what is it`s function?why is it organised at a time when
club is given precedent over Country ?
Why are they picking journeyman mercanaries rather than developing players?
What is it supposed to achieve both Scotland and France have achieved victories.Over understrength Argentine sides in the recent past?
Other threads talk of England in a group of death again for RWC but you
have to win these groups in them.
Ireland and England have achieved notable victories over NZ and Aus
BUT neither were RWC strength sides.
THAT takes NOTHING from there victories you can only beat the side
you meet.
The RWC is the only time full strength sides are fielded by all sides,
this Argentine side will be nothing.
Like the RWC side neither will Englands this is a perfect chance
to develop youngsters NZ do.

Plenty of youngsters going to Argentina. The talk above is making up players for training ahead of a non capped game against the barbarians.

The RWC isnt the only time teams field full strength sides, that makes no sense.

We're playing Argentina, its up to them who they field.

LondonTiger wrote:I am fully aware that a plethora of SHs were unavailable. I know this is just training and he will soon be gone. However this is the 4th Kiwi called up this season with minimal connection to England. Ignoring the fact that we are looking at guys who could not cut the mustard in NZ, it starts to look as if EJ does not give a flying poop about national identity. Of course he cares only about winning, but as a fan I want a national team that represents the national.

Other countries fans are perfectly within their rights to point, snigger and mock as the "richest" rugby nation has to relay on other countries rejects..

If it looked remotely likely that he might actually play, then I might agree with you.

And while England happily exploit residency qualified players when they're available, they're not exactly recruiting project players specifically to fill roles, unlike some other nations. They're economic migrants, and not so different from all those Pacific Island families who've supplied players to NZ over the years.

Looking at the 6N EPS, I make it 5 players out of 45 who haven't grown up through age grade rugby in the UK (Hartley, Hughes, Williams, Rokoduguni, Te'o), plus Harrison replacing Sam Jones in the training squad. 6/46 is not a huge number. And in a fully fit XXIII probably only Hartley and Te'o would feature. That's a fair bit lower than Ireland or Scotland.

emack -
It is the BaaBaas (largely picked on European based Southern Hem stars) and a smattering of quality from elsewhere.
Game is a money spinner in my mind, as England could never field a full side do to all the club commitments. I don't know who organised it, but we have seen this clash a number of times, but as said above - it is a good opportunity to test out some youngsters without it being a capped match. Probably one of the few chances EJ will have for this.
The tour to Argentina, I am hoping will be against as strong an Argentina side as possible - expect it to be the Rugby Championship side (or as close to as possible). It is a full capped 2 match tour - while England will be understrength, I wouldn't expect Argentina to be......especially with most of their squad now playing in Argentina for the Jaguares.


The last time England beat the ABs - I don't think it was a particularly weak side. There were ? over health, and tour fatigue. But all the names were there.

I think Emack was asking which Argentina teams we are playing?

Answer - Argentina national side - but it is up to them how strong a team they select.


Emack also castigates us for not selecting youth.

Answer: In the touring party to Argentina we are. Five U20s and a few more who are recent U20 players.

I was referring to 2016 England beat a team of Aus based players plus
Will Genia.During the RWC and the RC the team was based on NH and
Aus based players.
Ireland beat the weakest All Black side since France first test 2009 both
of which I predicted on 606 they`d lose.
AS stated that detracts NOTHING from the respective victories,if you
want a parallel
Imagine England with Kruis,Itoje,Launchberry injured,Lawes worried
about suspension.Starting Haskell at Lock.A first choice wing injured
your first choice 9 under a cloud yellow carded early.Plus Billy Vunipola
playing with a broken hand at 8.
Against an inspired Ireland and the game still in doubt for the last few
minutes.
England with a squad in a neutral country far from home,i think Hansen`s
decision not to call up another Lock smacked of complancey.

More to do with poor selection from nz then and nothing to do with an England tour to Argentina.

Injuries happen, they don't really detract from a loss. Ireland deserved to NZ last year, as did England in 2012. Equally, NZ deserved to win the re-match in Ireland and all 3 games against us in 2014.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Injuries happen, they don't really detract from a loss. Ireland deserved to NZ last year, as did England in 2012. Equally, NZ deserved to win the re-match in Ireland and all 3 games against us in 2014.

Dead right. A test match is a test match, you play it with what's available, and take your lumps if you lose

Actually was asking the context of this tour and players being made
unavailable to tour due to club commiments.
A Argentina side of the 3 components mentioned would be formidable
indeed.Just as Aus Super sides or SA Supersides had access to players
abroad the Super series would be back to what it was.
To the benefit of all concerned NOTHING to do with SH strength at all
or poor selection.
More about the numpties organizing these things at the same time anyone
who` s bothered to read any of my posts.
Would know I abhor the practice of hiding players on tours or sacrifice
tournaments to try to win a RWC.

There are zero players unavailable to either Argentina or England due to club commitments.