England tour to Argentina

First topic message reminder :

It has been touched on in other threads but thought it was worth its own post.  
With the Lions touring to NZ there will be an opportunity for EJ to test some fresh talent.  Who would you like to see?

Interesting fact...the last time Wade was capped was the last tour to Argentina when he was also called into the Lions.
Clifford is now ruled out as having shoulder surgery - http://www.quins.co.uk/news/jack-clifford-injury-update/

I am working on the assumption that Lions call ups will be - Hartley, George, Cole, Itoje, Lawes, Mako V, Billy V, Launchbury, Youngs, Farrell, Joseph, Watson, Daly, Haskell, Brown......(there will be others I am sure and possibly some of these wont go).

But on that assumption and picking 2 in each position I would think that the tour selection group could be something like this - (from EPS and Saxons)
1. Marler, Genge
2. Taylor, LCD
3. Sinkler, Catt (not sure if he is TH or LH)
4. Kruis, Attwood
5. Ewels , ?
6. Robshaw, D.Armond
7. T.Harrison, T.Wood
8. Hughes, J.Chisholm
9. Care, Robson
10. Ford, Slade
11.J.May, Rokko
12.Ben Teo, ?
13.? ?
14.Yarde, Wade
15.Lozowski, Goode

Those are the chaps that I can think of from the current EPS and Saxons - There are a number that I am sure wont be included and a number from outside the squads that might have a run.
Guys like Solomona have been mentioned, Underhill, Beaumont, youngsters from U20s - Malinder, Marchant,
Who is a good option for 13?

UPDATED WITH SELECTED SQUAD -
Forwards
Will Collier (Harlequins, uncapped)
Luke Cowan-Dickie (Exeter Chiefs, 4 caps)
Ben Curry (Sale Sharks, uncapped)
Tom Curry (Sale Sharks, uncapped)
Charlie Ewels (Bath Rugby, 3 caps)
Ellis Genge (Leicester Tigers, 1 cap)
Dylan Hartley – captain (Northampton Saints, 84 caps)
James Haskell (Wasps, 75 caps)
Paul Hill (Northampton Saints, 5 caps)
Nathan Hughes (Wasps, 8 caps)
Nick Isiekwe (Saracens, uncapped)
Joe Launchbury (Wasps, 42 caps)
Matt Mullan (Wasps, 15 caps)
Chris Robshaw (Harlequins, 55 caps)
Sam Underhill (Ospreys/Bath Rugby, uncapped)
Harry Williams (Exeter Chiefs, uncapped)
Tom Wood (Northampton Saints, 50 caps)

Backs
Mike Brown – vice-captain (Harlequins, 60 caps)
Danny Care – vice captain (Harlequins, 71 caps)
Joe Cokanasiga (London Irish, uncapped)
Nathan Earle (Saracens, uncapped)
George Ford – vice captain (Bath Rugby, 35 caps)
Piers Francis (Auckland Blues/Northampton Saints, uncapped)
Sam James (Sale Sharks, uncapped)
Alex Lozowski (Saracens, uncapped)
Harry Mallinder (Northampton Saints, uncapped)
Joe Marchant (Harlequins, uncapped)
Jack Maunder (Exeter Chiefs, uncapped)
Jonny May (Gloucester Rugby, 25 caps)
Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs, 4 caps)
Denny Solomona (Sale Sharks, uncapped)

Unavailable for selection due to injury
Jack Clifford (Harlequins)
Sam Jones (Wasps)

England’s two-Test tour to Argentina
Estadio San Juan del Bicentenario, San Juan, Kick-off 16:15 (local time), Saturday 10th June
Estadio Brigadier General Estanislao Lopez, Santa Fe. Kick-off 16:15 (local time), Saturday 17th June

I have faith in the abilities of the young kids going to Argentina.

They'll also have top class guys like Robshaw, Hartley, Launchbury,  Ford, Brown, Haskell around then guiding them.  

And the likes of the Currys have played with a lack of fear or such on the pitch.

I think we'll go well in Argentina.

I was going on the Guardian and Planet Rugby reports ,that with
end of season tournament.Keyplayers were not considered because
of this.

For the uncapped baa baa game.

For the tour to Argentina, the only eligible players Eddie Jones was unable to select were those injured or going to NZ with the Lions.


(Note - eligible players excludes anyone not contracted to an English club as per RFU regulations)


For Argentina the only players ruled out are those do not comply with the rule of having to ply their trade in Super Rugby. While this does indeed rule some good players out, this is the rule UAR have put in place for all internationals post RWC15 (including for RWC19)

emack2 wrote:I was going on the Guardian and Planet Rugby reports ,that with
end of season tournament.Keyplayers were not considered because
of this.

You misunderstood them.

The team against the BaaBaas will look very experimental, thankfully it's a non-cap game. The team in Argentina should be strong though, especially in the forwards where games against Argentina are won.

Strongest side I think we could field in the tests is below.

1.Mullan 2.Hartley 3.Hill 4.Launchbury 5.Ewels 6.Robshaw 7.Haskell 8.Hughes
9.Care 10.Ford 11.May 12.Slade 13.Marchant 14.Earle 15.Brown

16.Cowan-Dickie 17.Genge 18.Williams 19.Isiekwe 20.Underhill 21.Maunder 22.Lozowski 23.Mallinder

Obviously that's subjective and many will argue over who should get exposure. Especially in the back row where there's a lot of talent. Also in the centres where there are a few talented options without a standout pair who demand selection.

I would like to see Genge get a start in Argentina. We know that Mullan is a steady hand, but with Mako and Marler ahead of him it would be good to see the tyro against what is traditionally one of the better scrummaging units.

Agreed LT. We're both biased there as Tigers fans but Genge isn't making the majority of AP teams of the season for nothing. His scrummaging has been getting more impressive throughout the season and his carrying is outstanding. His aggression has been showing through more in defence as well where he's really started throwing his weight around with some excellent low and hard hits.

I'd back that as well. Genge must start these tests.

Genge has been excellent, a better option than Mullen imo.

I'm a Wasps fan, and as good a servant as Mullan's been, we know what he delivers. I also would like to see Mr Genge given a crack at the Argentinians. I think that there's a lot of potential there.

I wonder if Brown will retain VC after his comments about the Lions. And why isn't Ashton on the tour?

What comments? Ashton is off to France so little point.

He said he was disappointed not to he chosen by the lions and he would now be focusing on England pooly.

Well he went a bit further saying he hadn't even been told if he was on the replacements list. Smacked of sour grapes, just not sure he is vice captaincy material but then maybe Eddie is trying to get him to tap into some other aspects of his personality.

Shame about Ashton seems to be the form winger at the moment.

Nah it didn't. Same as Roberts saying he was disappointed. Smacked of the truth from guys wanting to test themselves.

Nothing like Roberts who came off as dignified

“Having been in two Lions tour squads, I know that elation of having your name read out. Unfortunately, this time round it was the opposite – it was disappointment. The beauty of a Lions tour is that not everyone can go. It is a very privileged position. It is a very special place to be, so I was gutted for about a day or two, and then you refocus and you go again and you use it as motivation."

Brown said this
“I didn’t take it well. I was gutted. I feel I’ve played really well from 2015 onwards so it was really disappointing to get the call, but you can’t let one man’s decision define you. It’s really disappointing for guys like myself, James Haskell and Dylan Hartley because we probably won’t get another opportunity. I’ve had no feedback about being on standby either, which is also disappointing, so I’m not going to keep up false hopes."

Oh god you're right terrible. So both gutted and moving on with their countries. Time you moved on from brown as well.

One dignified and selfless and the other full of emotional blackmail and recrimination about not being on standby.

I hope being vice makes Brown grow up. He was the talk of the town 2 years ago and can be a fine player who needs to learn to pass, but obviously isn't aware of his own weaknesses around temperamental issues that cost him this opportunity.

It's almost as if you take to heart any perceived injustice to gatland. Saying brown is the worst full back england have had to embellishing gatland wales record. Take a deep breath it'll be ok.

No 7&1/2 wrote:It's almost as if you take to heart any perceived injustice to gatland. Saying brown is the worst full back england have had to embellishing gatland wales record. Take a deep breath it'll be ok.

Mmmm you made the link to Gatland not me, suggests you have the issue with him which is odd because this is about Brown.

Nope you brought up a perceived slight to the grand slam winning x3 (or is it 4 or 5 now gwlad?) Lions coach. You're finding any criticism almost unbearable, why? In fact leave it to the lions threads.

Oh dear here we go again with you. Not going to argue with you as you clearly are getting over excited again and trying to argue against a point not made (straw man) You will continue to make the same irrelevant point again and agin so just leave it alone now.

I posted about Brown in the context of his VC and Roberts in the context of their being left out of the Lions tour and how they respectively handled it, you brought up Gatland and have done so again.

It's you can't handle criticism.

Gwlad,
Brown wears his heart on his sleeve.
He's disappointed....do you expect him to be jumping up and down? Besides I don't read it as you do. Not insulting or anything. Or is it because it's an England player your so offended.

You have never liked brown.

GeordieFalcon wrote:Gwlad,
Brown wears his heart on his sleeve.
He's disappointed....do you expect him to be jumping up and down? Besides I don't read it as you do. Not insulting or anything. Or is it because it's an England player your so offended.

You have never liked brown.

I said he was a fine player whose ability to return and beat 1 or 2 defenders was becoming a trademark strength, but his temperament is what cost him and he seems unaware of that issue. His statement appeared like a tantrum. You say he wears his heart on his sleeve, well its costs him and he would have been toast in NZ. It was he that gave Half the pen in the RWC group game remember. Also his form dropped off; not even England fans argued for his inclusion (expect majesticimperialman!)

this is a huge tour of Argentina that England must at least draw and I hope, as I alluded to, the VC will bring out a more considered part of his personality otherwise I see him being out of the running by RWC) coupled with a need to learn to link up with his wingers and support players and not always die on the ball.

How does it cost him. I've heard that from so many people who jump on the bandwagon.

How has it cost him?

GeordieFalcon wrote:How does it cost him.  I've heard that from so many people who jump on the bandwagon.  

How has it cost him?

Isn't that obvious?

In my opinion that post match interview he gave was one of the most embarrassing things I have ever seen from a rugby player; he came off as a petulant sulky kid. Also, he is all hand bags on the pitch which he can't back up and now he makes a very emotive and seemingly petulant statement, referring not just to himself but also other players who HE thinks have been marginalized by not being selected as Lions. Its all very entitled and millennial and perhaps I am too long in the tooth to understand the lack of professionalism and dignity. He needs some counsel or he will end up becoming an embarrassing liability and EJ just won't have it. His form has dipped and his weaknesses in passing are clear.

And before I get the usual about English players I think it has cost Bigger too. His attitude is considered before his playing ability.

Ah abolsute tosh!

It's got f#$k all to do with his temperament.
Brown's form has dipped of late and that's the only reason he hasn't been selected.

GeordieFalcon wrote:Ah abolsute tosh!

It's got f#$k all to do with his temperament.
Brown's form has dipped of late and that's the only reason he hasn't been selected.

Well thats your opinion, I think its that and also his ability to be the right sort of Lion, maybe someone should have a word in his shell like then because if he doesn't realize that his form has dropped off he's more cub than lion.

And from a Quins fan. I want to see Genge starting and putting real pressure on Marler and Mako for that No 1 shirt.

Likewise, I'd like to see Hill or Collier step up on the TH side. At Quins, we see Collier and Sinckler as pretty equal and the Sinck has only pulled ahead because Collier's been unlucky with injury. Against better scrummaging sides, we like to see Collier starting, with Sinck starting the more open games.

Hill's been quiet this season from what I can see, but we know he can be good. One of them needs to be ready to step up should Cole or Sinckler get injured.

All of which said, we'll have a good idea by the end of the summer whether we have 4 players in each position with the potential to play internationally. If they all do well on tour, we'll be in a very strong position.

Nee bother...whatever

How old is Collier?

GeordieFalcon wrote:How old is Collier?

26, but has had some long injury periods, so broke through into the Quins side at pretty much the same time as Sinckler.

Good to hear he's getting a break. We need Scott Wilson to do the sane for us.

GeordieFalcon wrote:Ah abolsute tosh!

It's got f#$k all to do with his temperament.
Brown's form has dipped of late and that's the only reason he hasn't been selected.

There's no point even debating it Geordie, the only difference between Brown and Roberts' comments were their nationalities.

Yeah true mate...that's why I gave up.

I cant see the issue with Brown's comments and he's a good option as VC. I find it quite refreshing how honest he is in interviews, says it how most would like to I imagine.

Nice to see England and Lions prop Sinckler speaking in such glowing terms about Adam jones effect on his life and career. A credit to the England jersey with his well chosen words.

Poorfour wrote:And from a Quins fan. I want to see Genge starting and putting real pressure on Marler and Mako for that No 1 shirt.

Likewise, I'd like to see Hill or Collier step up on the TH side. At Quins, we see Collier and Sinckler as pretty equal and the Sinck has only pulled ahead because Collier's been unlucky with injury. Against better scrummaging sides, we like to see Collier starting, with Sinck starting the more open games.

Hill's been quiet this season from what I can see, but we know he can be good. One of them needs to be ready to step up should Cole or Sinckler get injured.

All of which said, we'll have a good idea by the end of the summer whether we have 4 players in each position with the potential to play internationally. If they all do well on tour, we'll be in a very strong position.

Williams looks a good TH too!

Given we've got Wig, Bomb and Kingston at the club, it would be hugely disappointing if Quins weren't producing a stream of strong props.

Gwlad wrote:Nice to see England and Lions prop Sinckler speaking in such glowing terms about Adam jones effect on his life and career. A credit to the England jersey with his well chosen words.

Ah I see what you did there.... Well done!

Still would have liked to have seen Wade be selected.

Feel really sorry for him.

Gwlad wrote:And before I get the usual about English players I think it has cost Bigger too. His attitude is considered before his playing ability.

Yeah that would explain why he didnt get selected for the Lions .....oh.

His attitude is an issue, hence why it took him a long time to get established with Wales, but he doesn't try and start fights and he can pass.

England watch today: Cowan-Dickie and Williams start for Exeter, with Slade on the bench - last year's man Ollie Devoto starting ahead of him at 12. Alex Lozowski starts on the bench for Saracens.

No place for Maunder (Exeter), Isiewke or Earle (both Saracens).

Exeter's scrum has had Sarries in trouble early on, Williams winning a penalty from Mako Vunipola right on Exeter's line early on.

Cowan-Dickie and Williams looked lively and helped Exeter into a lead before they came off. Henry Slade came off the bench and his biggest impact basically won it for Exeter with a monstrous penalty into the corner, giving Exeter a last minute line-out 7m out which they scored from. Lozowski didn't come on.

In the next semi, Mullan, Launchbury, Haskell and Hughes are playing for Wasps, while Genge is playing for Leicester. All start.

From the England Rugby website, an updated squad for the Barbarians fixture:

Forwards (17)

Josh Beaumont (Sale Sharks), Rob Buchanan (Harlequins), Will Collier (Harlequins), Ben Curry (Sale Sharks), Tom Curry (Sale Sharks), Tom Ellis (Bath Rugby), Charlie Ewels (Bath Rugby), Jamal Ford-Robinson (Bristol), Ellis Genge (Leicester Tigers), Ross Harrison (Sale Sharks), Nick Isiekwe (Saracens), Chris Robshaw (Harlequins), Nick Schonert (Worcester Warriors), Jack Singleton (Worcester Warriors), Will Spencer (Worcester Warriors), Sam Underhill (Bath Rugby), Mark Wilson (Newcastle Falcons).

Backs (12)

Mike Brown (Harlequins), Danny Care (Harlequins), Nathan Earle (Saracens), George Ford (Bath Rugby), Mike Haley (Sale Sharks), Sam James (Sale Sharks), Alex Lozowski (Saracens), Joe Marchant (Harlequins), Jonny May (Gloucester Rugby), Ryan Mills (Worcester Warriors), Richard Wigglesworth (Saracens), Marland Yarde (Harlequins).

Obviously Northampton, Wasps and Exeter players are unavailable, but I'm unsure why Solomona isn't on that list?

From that squad though, you'd probably assume a 23 looking something like:

Genge, Buchanan, Collier, Ewels, Isiekwe, Robshaw, Underhill, Beaumont.
Care, Ford, May, James, Marchant, Earle, Brown.
Singleton, Harrison, Ford-Robinson, T Curry, B Curry, Wigglesworth, Lozowski, Haley.

Leaving out:
Mark Wilson (flanker), Tom Ellis (lock/flanker), Nick Schonert (prop), Will Spencer (lock), Marland Yarde (wing), Ryan Mills (centre).

You have to think he'll give the starting spots to his Argentina tourists where possible.

I'd have thought Will Spencer will start. He's had a great season for Worcester and will add some serious weight to the second row. Similarly Wilson has been the top tackler in the AP, be surprised if he's completely overlooked.

Two Curry's on the bench would leave us fantastically light if Ewels or Beaumont got injured. I doubt the Baabaas or Argentina packs will be small so we'll need some weight in there.

Sam - potentially, but that would only be for the Barbarians game. After that, expect Launchbury to return and take a place in the starting 15.

I tried to base my selection on getting as many original squad members in the line up, as I think the extra guys are just a bit of fodder for training. I think Eddie might be shown up a bit if one of the extras added to the squad starts and outperforms a tourist, and he might want to avoid that.

Although with Haley not being part of the original squad and Lozowski able to cover a few positions, Jones may even go 6 and 2 and put in a lock for Haley into that squad.