England tour to Argentina

First topic message reminder :

It has been touched on in other threads but thought it was worth its own post.  
With the Lions touring to NZ there will be an opportunity for EJ to test some fresh talent.  Who would you like to see?

Interesting fact...the last time Wade was capped was the last tour to Argentina when he was also called into the Lions.
Clifford is now ruled out as having shoulder surgery - http://www.quins.co.uk/news/jack-clifford-injury-update/

I am working on the assumption that Lions call ups will be - Hartley, George, Cole, Itoje, Lawes, Mako V, Billy V, Launchbury, Youngs, Farrell, Joseph, Watson, Daly, Haskell, Brown......(there will be others I am sure and possibly some of these wont go).

But on that assumption and picking 2 in each position I would think that the tour selection group could be something like this - (from EPS and Saxons)
1. Marler, Genge
2. Taylor, LCD
3. Sinkler, Catt (not sure if he is TH or LH)
4. Kruis, Attwood
5. Ewels , ?
6. Robshaw, D.Armond
7. T.Harrison, T.Wood
8. Hughes, J.Chisholm
9. Care, Robson
10. Ford, Slade
11.J.May, Rokko
12.Ben Teo, ?
13.? ?
14.Yarde, Wade
15.Lozowski, Goode

Those are the chaps that I can think of from the current EPS and Saxons - There are a number that I am sure wont be included and a number from outside the squads that might have a run.
Guys like Solomona have been mentioned, Underhill, Beaumont, youngsters from U20s - Malinder, Marchant,
Who is a good option for 13?

UPDATED WITH SELECTED SQUAD -
Forwards
Will Collier (Harlequins, uncapped)
Luke Cowan-Dickie (Exeter Chiefs, 4 caps)
Ben Curry (Sale Sharks, uncapped)
Tom Curry (Sale Sharks, uncapped)
Charlie Ewels (Bath Rugby, 3 caps)
Ellis Genge (Leicester Tigers, 1 cap)
Dylan Hartley – captain (Northampton Saints, 84 caps)
James Haskell (Wasps, 75 caps)
Paul Hill (Northampton Saints, 5 caps)
Nathan Hughes (Wasps, 8 caps)
Nick Isiekwe (Saracens, uncapped)
Joe Launchbury (Wasps, 42 caps)
Matt Mullan (Wasps, 15 caps)
Chris Robshaw (Harlequins, 55 caps)
Sam Underhill (Ospreys/Bath Rugby, uncapped)
Harry Williams (Exeter Chiefs, uncapped)
Tom Wood (Northampton Saints, 50 caps)

Backs
Mike Brown – vice-captain (Harlequins, 60 caps)
Danny Care – vice captain (Harlequins, 71 caps)
Joe Cokanasiga (London Irish, uncapped)
Nathan Earle (Saracens, uncapped)
George Ford – vice captain (Bath Rugby, 35 caps)
Piers Francis (Auckland Blues/Northampton Saints, uncapped)
Sam James (Sale Sharks, uncapped)
Alex Lozowski (Saracens, uncapped)
Harry Mallinder (Northampton Saints, uncapped)
Joe Marchant (Harlequins, uncapped)
Jack Maunder (Exeter Chiefs, uncapped)
Jonny May (Gloucester Rugby, 25 caps)
Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs, 4 caps)
Denny Solomona (Sale Sharks, uncapped)

Unavailable for selection due to injury
Jack Clifford (Harlequins)
Sam Jones (Wasps)

England’s two-Test tour to Argentina
Estadio San Juan del Bicentenario, San Juan, Kick-off 16:15 (local time), Saturday 10th June
Estadio Brigadier General Estanislao Lopez, Santa Fe. Kick-off 16:15 (local time), Saturday 17th June

Argentina squad for June.

Forwards: Matías Alemanno, Felipe Arregui, Rodrigo Baez, Agustín Creevy (c), Santiago Garcia Botta, Ramiro Herrera, Tomás Lavanini, Juan Manuel Leguizamon, Tomás Lezana, Benjamín Macome, Pablo Matera, Julían Montoya, Lucas Noguera, Javier Ortega Desio, Guido Petti, Enrique Pieretto, Leonardo Senatore, Nahuel Tetaz Chaparro

Backs: Gonzalo Bertranou, Emiliano Boffelli, Santiago Cordero, Jerónimo de la Fuente, Bautista Ezcurra, Santiago Gonzalez Iglesias, Juan Martín Hernández, Martín Landajo, Manuel Montero, Matias Moroni, Ramiro Moyano, Matías Orlando, Nicolás Sánchez, Joaquín Tuculet

Has anyone got a link to some highlights?

So they can put out a side that looks like

Chaparro, Creevy, Herrera, Petti, Lavanini, Matera, Leguizamon, Senatore

Landajo, Sanchez, Cordero, Hernandez, Moroni, Montero, Tuculet

That's practically first choice isn't it?

Isa?

Signing for Toulon rules him out, but yeah at full strength he'd be in

Going to be s tough ask for our young squad down there, but hopefully they'll take that challenge on with the same confidence and fearlessness they did the Barbarians

6 flankers and only 1 no 8 seems a bit unbalanced.

Light at full back too.

Brown and Hughes fitness will be important!

Also why is Yarde there?

Too many wingers, especially sub par wingers!

Mark Wilson and Haskell can cover 8 Beshocked.

Not ideal but I suspect Eddie knows he has Billy V and Hughes as 8's so he's happy to have a stand in for this tour. Its not his priority.

I do think we're short on hookers though. Only taking 2? I'd have taken another.

Who is the actual wings that are going? Is it these?

Joe Cokanasiga (London Irish, uncapped)
Nathan Earle (Saracens, uncapped)
Jonny May (Gloucester Rugby, 25 caps)
Denny Solomona (Sale Sharks, uncapped)

Plus Yarde

Ah right.

Yarde isn't as bad as everyone makes out. Give Earle and May the wing spots though.

GeordieFalcon wrote:Ah right.

Yarde isn't as bad as everyone beshocked makes out. Give Earle and May the wing spots though.  

Corrected

Haskell has gone with the Lions hasn't he? Plus he's not a particularly good no 8 either.

Mark Wilson is unproven at any position at international level. I don't see him as good no 8 cover.

Got to have more than 2 no 8s in case, one of them picks up an injury (guess what that's happened already).

Yes arguably short on hookers but Taylor is the 3rd hooker (with George with the Lions), there is no 3rd no 8.

5 wingers.

Solomona
Earle
May
Cokanasiga
Yarde

It's excessive. Especially when 2 have been pretty poor for England and the other 3 are unproven.

To be fair to May he's had a good AIs but being good in a handful of 25 odd caps isn't enough.


So many better wingers than Yarde. If you rate Yarde highly, fair enough Bambam.

Not sure Yarde has been pretty poor for England to be honest.  His strike rate of 7 tries in 11 games would suggest otherwise.

England wingers scoring rates…

May 8 in 25
Nowell 11 in 23
Watson 13 in 26

Yarde has a better conversion rate, and has most of his appearances in a poorer performing side, and includes if memory serves correctly 3 appearances against the All Blacks, 2 of which he scored in.

His defence has been worse than Ashton. Makes Ashton looks like a backrow forward in terms of tackling.

That's a scary thought.

Didn't know Yarde has such a voracious fan base. Fair enough.

We'll have to agree to disagree.

I think his biggest fault is not being called Chris Ashton tbh

It's not about having a voracious fan base beshocked, the stats show he has been good at doing the primary job of a winger at international level, scoring tries.

beshocked wrote:Haskell has gone with the Lions hasn't he? Plus he's not a particularly good no 8 either.

Mark Wilson is unproven at any position at international level. I don't see him as good no 8 cover.

.

I forgot Haskell had indeed been called up to the Lions. Mark Wilson will prove himself on this tour. Of that I have no doubt what soever.

beshocked wrote:His defence has been worse than Ashton. Makes Ashton looks like a backrow forward in terms of tackling.

That's a scary thought.

Didn't know Yarde has such a voracious fan base. Fair enough.

We'll have to agree to disagree.

Why do you roll that comment out everytime people disagree with you on a player...ala Hartley.

Maybe the majority just have a different view to you.

What has Yarde done that so bad? And he defence is way strong than Ashtons.....

BamBam wrote:I think his biggest fault is not being called Chris Ashton tbh

If Yarde had Ashton's try scoring record in AP,ERCC and internationals I think he'd be a little bit more higher rated.

Being the all time top try scorer in the ERCC is impressive.

I've come to like Nowell because he's actually turned into a very good player. 2015 onwards I've been a fan of him.If a player performs well I'll support them.

His try vs Wasps was very well executed.

Lawes and Launchbury good 6 nations Launchbury unlucky to miss out on Lions.


If Yarde was playing well, I'd support him but he's been not good enough for some time. May is frustating, a player who I hoped would kick on from a successful Ais.

BamBam wrote:I think his biggest fault is not being called Chris Ashton tbh

If he can start doing the swan dive then surely that's close enough.

Geordiefalcon

Being serious now, what do you think Yarde has done to put him ahead of numerous wingers in the AP?

Why do you rate so highly?

Yarde simply isn't playing well enough. 11 caps in 4 years - he's not a particularly experienced international. He's not really a proven good player at international level.  Yes he has 7 tries in 11 games over 4 years - sporadic.

Hartley I can understand - he's an experienced international, he's been generally reliable at lineout and scrum time. I get why he has a voracious fan base - he's the captain, he's been elevated to deity status. I get it.

Yarde on the other hand - baffles me.

If Yarde is as good as you think why is he so woeful at club level? His try count at club level is laughable.


Not as if Yarde is some experienced veteran wing with only 11 caps in 4 years.

beshocked wrote:

BamBam wrote:I think his biggest fault is not being called Chris Ashton tbh

If Yarde had Ashton's try scoring record in AP,ERCC and internationals I think he'd be a little bit more higher rated.

Being the all time top try scorer in the ERCC is impressive.

I've come to like Nowell because he's actually turned into a very good player. 2015 onwards I've been a fan of him.If a player performs well I'll support them.

His try vs Wasps was very well executed.

Lawes and Launchbury good 6 nations  Launchbury unlucky to miss out on Lions.


If Yarde was playing well, I'd support him but he's been not good enough for some time. May is frustating, a player who I hoped would kick on from a successful Ais.

Ashton – try every 2.41 matches (22 in 53)
Yarde – try every 1.57 matches (7 in 11)


Do try to be objective dear boy, rather than constantly slating certain players with nothing to back it up other than your own personal bias.

Who are the numerous wingers? Bearing in mind Daly/Nowell/Watson are away with the Lions,

Solomona is an injury risk who was thought to be likely to miss the tour, so I can see why we've got 5 wingers

Who are these multiple wingers who have been left out of the side? I assume they all have international experience and have played against the All Blacks, so will have plenty to offer in terms of helping the youngsters (Earle/Cokanasiga)

Or they're called Chris Ashton of course

I think Yarde is only in as injury cover because Solomona already has a knock.

The key for Eddie Jones this tour (other than the series win) is looking at players who could be exceptional. He wants to look at more flankers than 8 because we have 2 choices at 8 when at full strength, and only 2 reliable choices at flanker (as shown by using Itoje out of position in the 6 Nations).

Similarly at full back, his candidates to replace Brown are probably both with the Lions. Why would he take a couple of guys to audition for 4th pick full-back? If he's going to move Watson or Daly to full back, then he will need to look at extra wing options.

22 tries is 15 more than 7. 53 caps is more than 11....

Is 11 caps in 4 years meant impress me?

You aren't seriously arguing Yarde is a better winger than Ashton? That's a joke right?


You know Yarde has only had 11 caps because he's just not that good. Other wingers will hopefully leapfrog him.

Not personal bias to suggest a clearly more successful and accomplished winger is a more successful and accomplished winger.

Just look at england caps, try count, silverware, take your pick. Even defensively Ashton hasn't had issues in many big games, most at club level.

Ashton isn't in contention for England selection anymore but he's much better than the highly overrated Yarde.

No it's not bias - it's fact.


Bambam

Woodburn,Short,Banahan, Roko, Wade - just to name 5.

England don't need Yarde.


robbo277 there's still no back up 8 to Hughes. Billy will have been missing for quite a while now, England need a 3rd option at 8 just as they are looking to develop 3rd option at 2.

Hughes didn't exactly look in good shape in the AP final either despite playing well.

beshocked wrote:Geordiefalcon

Being serious now, what do you think Yarde has done to put him ahead of numerous wingers in the AP?

Why do you rate so highly?

Yarde simply isn't playing well enough. 11 caps in 4 years - he's not a particularly experienced international. He's not really a proven good player at international level.  Yes he has 7 tries in 11 games over 4 years - sporadic.

Hartley I can understand - he's an experienced international, he's been generally reliable at lineout and scrum time. I get why he has a voracious fan base - he's the captain, he's been elevated to deity status. I get it.

Yarde on the other hand - baffles me.

If Yarde is as good as you think why is he so woeful at club level? His try count at club level is laughable.


Not as if Yarde is some experienced veteran wing with only 11 caps in 4 years.

Why do you put words in peoples mouths?? Where have I said I rate him highly.

I merely saying that he's not as bad as you are saying. We have a number of top wingers all unavailable. Jones has selected youngsters who offer something a little different to see what they will bring and offer different option (ie the size and power of Cockasaniga)

Yarde is a solid option who has scored tries in the England side and always looks decent.

I just don't get your arguments?

beshocked wrote:22 tries is 15 more than 7. 53 caps is more than 11....

Is 11 caps in 4 years meant impress me?

You aren't seriously arguing Yarde is a better winger than Ashton? That's a joke right?


You know Yarde has only had 11 caps because he's just not that good. Other wingers will hopefully leapfrog him.

Not personal bias to suggest a clearly more successful and accomplished winger is a more successful and accomplished winger.

Just look at england caps, try count, silverware, take your pick. Even defensively Ashton hasn't had issues in many big games, most at club level.

Ashton isn't in contention for England selection anymore but he's much better than the highly overrated Yarde.

No it's not bias - it's fact.


Bambam

Woodburn,Short,Banahan, Roko, Wade - just to name 5.

England don't need Yarde.

Where have I suggested Yarde is better than Ashton beshocked? I'm merely pointing out your reasoning is nonsense. Yarde was first choice 2013/14, then damaged his hip and lost his place and has never really regained it. I agree his form for Quins isn't great, it was a poor move for him going there, but it doesn't change the fact that his international strike rate is better than any of our other wingers, which is probably what got him the late call up for this summer. Do try to digest what's actually said to you by people old chap, as nobody has actually said that Yarde is the savior or a better player than anyone else, just that his record at international is very good, a point that which even with your best blinkers on, I think you'd struggle form a coherent argument against.

GeordieFalcon wrote:

beshocked wrote:Geordiefalcon

Being serious now, what do you think Yarde has done to put him ahead of numerous wingers in the AP?

Why do you rate so highly?

Yarde simply isn't playing well enough. 11 caps in 4 years - he's not a particularly experienced international. He's not really a proven good player at international level.  Yes he has 7 tries in 11 games over 4 years - sporadic.

Hartley I can understand - he's an experienced international, he's been generally reliable at lineout and scrum time. I get why he has a voracious fan base - he's the captain, he's been elevated to deity status. I get it.

Yarde on the other hand - baffles me.

If Yarde is as good as you think why is he so woeful at club level? His try count at club level is laughable.


Not as if Yarde is some experienced veteran wing with only 11 caps in 4 years.

Why do you put words in peoples mouths?? Where have I said I rate him highly.

I merely saying that he's not as bad as you are saying. We have a number of top wingers all unavailable. Jones has selected youngsters who offer something a little different to see what they will bring and offer different option (ie the size and power of Cockasaniga)

Yarde is a solid option who has scored tries in the England side and always looks decent.

I just don't get your arguments?

You are rating Yarde highly. Much higher than he is, that's for sure.

I think he'd actually struggle into get into most other AP sides.

My argument is that Yarde is overrated and I've heard nothing to change my mind - I don't see what he's doing in the squad to be honest.

I would have liked to see someone who deserved to be picked there like Wade,Woodburn,Short or Roko.

I don't want Yarde anywhere near the England squad till he starts playing better.

Ozzy it's a small sample though 7 tries in 11 caps in 4 years - sporadic, yes it looks a good strike rate but Yarde is barely playing for England.

I think 7 tries in 11 caps in 4 years doesn't really make him a proven international try scorer. It's not a large amount of tries or caps.

Yes it's only 1 less than May but I don't rate May either.

beshocked wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:

beshocked wrote:Geordiefalcon

Being serious now, what do you think Yarde has done to put him ahead of numerous wingers in the AP?

Why do you rate so highly?

Yarde simply isn't playing well enough. 11 caps in 4 years - he's not a particularly experienced international. He's not really a proven good player at international level.  Yes he has 7 tries in 11 games over 4 years - sporadic.

Hartley I can understand - he's an experienced international, he's been generally reliable at lineout and scrum time. I get why he has a voracious fan base - he's the captain, he's been elevated to deity status. I get it.

Yarde on the other hand - baffles me.

If Yarde is as good as you think why is he so woeful at club level? His try count at club level is laughable.


Not as if Yarde is some experienced veteran wing with only 11 caps in 4 years.

Why do you put words in peoples mouths?? Where have I said I rate him highly.

I merely saying that he's not as bad as you are saying. We have a number of top wingers all unavailable. Jones has selected youngsters who offer something a little different to see what they will bring and offer different option (ie the size and power of Cockasaniga)

Yarde is a solid option who has scored tries in the England side and always looks decent.

I just don't get your arguments?

You are rating Yarde highly. Much higher than he is, that's for sure.

I think he'd actually struggle into get into most other AP sides.

My argument is that Yarde is overrated and I've heard nothing to change my mind - I don't see what he's doing in the squad to be honest.

I would have liked to see someone who deserved to be picked there like Wade,Woodburn,Short or Roko.

I don't want Yarde anywhere near the England squad till he starts playing better.

Now you are either on a deliberate wind up or just talking out your hole!

Ozzy3213 wrote:

beshocked wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:

beshocked wrote:Geordiefalcon

Being serious now, what do you think Yarde has done to put him ahead of numerous wingers in the AP?

Why do you rate so highly?

Yarde simply isn't playing well enough. 11 caps in 4 years - he's not a particularly experienced international. He's not really a proven good player at international level.  Yes he has 7 tries in 11 games over 4 years - sporadic.

Hartley I can understand - he's an experienced international, he's been generally reliable at lineout and scrum time. I get why he has a voracious fan base - he's the captain, he's been elevated to deity status. I get it.

Yarde on the other hand - baffles me.

If Yarde is as good as you think why is he so woeful at club level? His try count at club level is laughable.


Not as if Yarde is some experienced veteran wing with only 11 caps in 4 years.

Why do you put words in peoples mouths?? Where have I said I rate him highly.

I merely saying that he's not as bad as you are saying. We have a number of top wingers all unavailable. Jones has selected youngsters who offer something a little different to see what they will bring and offer different option (ie the size and power of Cockasaniga)

Yarde is a solid option who has scored tries in the England side and always looks decent.

I just don't get your arguments?

You are rating Yarde highly. Much higher than he is, that's for sure.

I think he'd actually struggle into get into most other AP sides.

My argument is that Yarde is overrated and I've heard nothing to change my mind - I don't see what he's doing in the squad to be honest.

I would have liked to see someone who deserved to be picked there like Wade,Woodburn,Short or Roko.

I don't want Yarde anywhere near the England squad till he starts playing better.

Now you are either on a deliberate wind up or just talking out your hole!

So which teams?

Wasps? No.
Exeter? No
Saracens? No
Leicester? Maybe on one wing because Thompstone is just as poor.
Bath? No
Saints? No
Newcastle? No
Gloucester? No.
Sale? Maybe on one wing.
Worcester? Maybe on one wing
Bristol? Sure

So in the majority of teams he wouldn't get in.

beshocked wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:

beshocked wrote:Geordiefalcon

Being serious now, what do you think Yarde has done to put him ahead of numerous wingers in the AP?

Why do you rate so highly?

Yarde simply isn't playing well enough. 11 caps in 4 years - he's not a particularly experienced international. He's not really a proven good player at international level.  Yes he has 7 tries in 11 games over 4 years - sporadic.

Hartley I can understand - he's an experienced international, he's been generally reliable at lineout and scrum time. I get why he has a voracious fan base - he's the captain, he's been elevated to deity status. I get it.

Yarde on the other hand - baffles me.

If Yarde is as good as you think why is he so woeful at club level? His try count at club level is laughable.


Not as if Yarde is some experienced veteran wing with only 11 caps in 4 years.

Why do you put words in peoples mouths?? Where have I said I rate him highly.

I merely saying that he's not as bad as you are saying. We have a number of top wingers all unavailable. Jones has selected youngsters who offer something a little different to see what they will bring and offer different option (ie the size and power of Cockasaniga)

Yarde is a solid option who has scored tries in the England side and always looks decent.

I just don't get your arguments?

You are rating Yarde highly. Much higher than he is, that's for sure.

I think he'd actually struggle into get into most other AP sides.

My argument is that Yarde is overrated and I've heard nothing to change my mind - I don't see what he's doing in the squad to be honest.

I would have liked to see someone who deserved to be picked there like Wade,Woodburn,Short or Roko.

I don't want Yarde anywhere near the England squad till he starts playing better.

Ozzy it's a small sample though 7 tries in 11 caps in 4 years - sporadic, yes it looks a good strike rate but Yarde is barely playing for England.

I think 7 tries in 11 caps in 4 years doesn't really make him a proven international try scorer. It's not a large amount of tries or caps.

Yes it's only 1 less than May but I don't rate May either.

Oh dear lord I give up.....head...wall...banging...against...

GeordieFalcon wrote:

beshocked wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:

beshocked wrote:Geordiefalcon

Being serious now, what do you think Yarde has done to put him ahead of numerous wingers in the AP?

Why do you rate so highly?

Yarde simply isn't playing well enough. 11 caps in 4 years - he's not a particularly experienced international. He's not really a proven good player at international level.  Yes he has 7 tries in 11 games over 4 years - sporadic.

Hartley I can understand - he's an experienced international, he's been generally reliable at lineout and scrum time. I get why he has a voracious fan base - he's the captain, he's been elevated to deity status. I get it.

Yarde on the other hand - baffles me.

If Yarde is as good as you think why is he so woeful at club level? His try count at club level is laughable.


Not as if Yarde is some experienced veteran wing with only 11 caps in 4 years.

Why do you put words in peoples mouths?? Where have I said I rate him highly.

I merely saying that he's not as bad as you are saying. We have a number of top wingers all unavailable. Jones has selected youngsters who offer something a little different to see what they will bring and offer different option (ie the size and power of Cockasaniga)

Yarde is a solid option who has scored tries in the England side and always looks decent.

I just don't get your arguments?

You are rating Yarde highly. Much higher than he is, that's for sure.

I think he'd actually struggle into get into most other AP sides.

My argument is that Yarde is overrated and I've heard nothing to change my mind - I don't see what he's doing in the squad to be honest.

I would have liked to see someone who deserved to be picked there like Wade,Woodburn,Short or Roko.

I don't want Yarde anywhere near the England squad till he starts playing better.

Ozzy it's a small sample though 7 tries in 11 caps in 4 years - sporadic, yes it looks a good strike rate but Yarde is barely playing for England.

I think 7 tries in 11 caps in 4 years doesn't really make him a proven international try scorer. It's not a large amount of tries or caps.

Yes it's only 1 less than May but I don't rate May either.

Oh dear lord I give up.....head...wall...banging...against...

Look I still see it as a waste of a space, even if it is as injury cover. Why not give someone whose actually played well this season to have an opportunity to prove themselves?

beshocked, you have made your point (over and over and over and over again). You have your opinions on a number of players, particularly wingers. We all know them by now. Not all of us agree with them. As long as you continue to state opinion as fact and refuse to acknowledge that anyone else might have a valid point of view, you're not going to convince anyone.

Will you now please shut up about it? This endless repetition of the same opinion makes threads unreadable. Sometimes it's better to bite your tongue or sit on your keyboard hand rather than perpetuate a discussion that goes nowhere.

Oh god he's back......

I like Yarde, gives a power option and he knows where the try line is at this level. No dramas with the wings really with some proven Ints and youth involved.

Poorfour I guess it's because for some players I don't know why you rate them so highly. You are a Quins fan so I can understand you defending Yarde despite him being a pretty poor signing.

3 tries in 20 matches this season, 1590 minutes.

Visser in comparison has 8 in 17, 1303 minutes in the same team. So no, can't use the excuse of playing in a poor team.

Sgt Pooly Power option? You like a winger who wouldn't be able to get into your club team? Fair enough.

Each to their own I guess.

11 caps in 4 years and he's a veteran international....

I do think the wing options look a bit weak without Nowell,Watson and Daly.

Perhaps understandable but don't know why you're all opposed to giving a winger like wade,woodburn,Short or Roko opportunities instead.

Lol. We're missing a few wings, trying out a few. Yarde is about 9 down the line at the moment. If he does well in Argentina good on him if solomona is fit he doesn't even go. Big whoop.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Lol. We're missing a few wings, trying out a few. Yarde is about 9 down the line at the moment. If he does well in Argentina good on him if solomona is fit he doesn't even go. Big whoop.

Look I feel sorry for the likes of Wade,Woodburn,Short and Roko.

Sure one was an ex Sarrie but doesn't play for us anymore and he's played well this season.

9th is a bit high when he'd struggle to get into most club sides as a starter.

I'd only consider Roko above Yarde from that list. Yarde would be welcome at Falcons, he'd have started for us this season, I think he's a very good winger.

Argentina should win these games which I think is a fair if troubling outcome given the current circumstances.

Obviously our goal is a World Cup win in Japan (EJ has said as much a number of times), but right now we're desperately close to having to accept that this is an unobtainable goal.

The unbeaten record was in itself of no consequence, but the way the sequence ended was very disappointing for the development of this team.

To have the interruption of the Lions is probably unbearable given the detrimental fallout that it entails; psychological and physical exhaustion, season ending injuries and loss of international team development opportunities (already there have been discussions with clubs about removing certain players from the autumn games in an effort to protect them from burnout) - and how many players kick on form wise from a Lions tour?

Plus we're now sending south a weakened development squad in the hope that we'll provide opportunities to some of the younger guys.

I have to say I am glad we're not playing the AB's this year as that would probably be the final straw.

So where does this leave us in our quest for WC glory? Well I for one think it's a less likely outcome.
And EJ is going to be tested like never before. His selections and strategies will come under the microscope more and more and those who thought he was probably riding the Saracens wave in beating an average Ozy will be watching him closely.
I think it is fair to say it has always been the case that you will have to beat the AB's and yet we are a very, very long way from providing a comprehensive challenge to the darkness. Fundamentally its all about rugby intelligence and skill levels - understanding the game and having the ability to execute the necessary skill under pressure, and basically, although Saracens have shown us that standards can be improved, our understanding and skills do not bare comparison. Our inherent cultural game fails to combat the quicker, more powerful, intelligent and skillful feast offered by NZ and until we can equal their try scoring proficiency we will fail.

Beating New Zealand was never going to be short term challenge.

However unless the next union president gets to grip with player welfare issues and challenges the idea of a 10 month global season, well unless some sense is found then I fear winning another world cup will always be beyond our control, a long term goal as Keynes would say.

Yes of course there are real positives in the here and now, in the wider game, that rightfully are celebrated. But when you inspect in isolation you realise the goal of winning the WC is hanging by a thread.

As an aside I'll repeat that I really hope Nathan Hughes does not get called up to the Lions. The lad needs a rest.

kingelderfield disappointing not to beat the Irish but with questionable selections, players unfit/injured not surprising.

I am mostly pleased with Jones move towards a development squad in Argentina. Looking for a long term solution for 6/7 is positive.

We haven't played NZ so don't write off England just yet.

I think you underestimate the skill of our forwards. England just need to keep building. England are well stocked in the 2nd row and at LH. Have some good options in other positions too but must keep growing.

If England can find better balance in the backrow - doesn't look like beast mode of Haskell is coming back, we could do better.

Compared to other nations I'd say 12,15,6 and 7 need the most improvement.

beshocked wrote:kingelderfield disappointing not to beat the Irish but with questionable selections, players unfit/injured not surprising.

Perhaps, however it was a real opportunity and the fact we lost it is for me very telling. We could say that it's a learning opportunity and yes i would agree that it was, but the fact that it got away from us and was not received with hales of derision says so much of us and ambition.

I am mostly pleased with Jones move towards a development squad in Argentina. Looking for a long term solution for 6/7 is positive.

Yes I have to agree with this though the loss of opportunity to the Lions irks me immensely. I don't know if he's got the balance right of experience to youth quite right by I to see it for what it has to be.

We haven't played NZ so don't write off England just yet.

Indeed we haven't and they haven't played anyone else this year either, however have you seen any of the super 15 this year? Honestly the Kiwi sides are playing a different game; power, skill, width and pace tuned to game plan that varies marginally from the AB's.

I think you underestimate the skill of our forwards. England just need to keep building. England are well stocked in the 2nd row and at LH. Have some good options in other positions too but must keep growing.

Yes we have to play to our strength's and I agree we have a very decent forward back that may better the AB's, and yes, it is generally the case that the better pack usually determines the outcome. However what if we're only their equal or only marginally better, because its not their forwards alone that we have to worry about, its their 15 man handling game where the dynamic running backs dominate. Sadly none of our backs other than Tuilagi in his pomp offer any sort of power running comparison.

If England can find better balance in the backrow - doesn't look like beast mode of Haskell is coming back, we could do better.

Compared to other nations I'd say 12,15,6 and 7 need the most improvement.

Farrell generally hits the standard with Youngs, Joseph and Nowell sometimes getting there. The rest are patchy at best and definitely not AB standard and yet the AB's backs are their strength and it is here in personnel, strategy and performance that we MUST improve.

Apologies about the boldness of my response!

kingelderfield it was disappointing but Jones has done well. It's only a learning opportunity if Jones doesn't make similar mistakes. I think him moving towards improvement at 6/7 is positive.

I think the bad thing about the Lions is that the England players will probably come back tired/injured.

Trying out new players in their absence isn't bad though.

No I haven't seen any Super XV but I think English forwards can play a skillful game as long as they are sufficiently fit and fresh.

I think are forwards in general are pretty good at handling.

It was a really good 23 performance vs NZ in 2012. Barritt and Tuilagi had their best game together - just things came together that day.

Forwards aggressive and skillful. Farrell kicking everything, zip from the bench etc.

Manu unfortunately hasn't replicated that inspired performance and obviously he's been crocked a lot.

Farrell has been fine at 12 but I like a genuine powerful running threat at 12 on the crash ball.

I agree that full back needs looking at. I just don't think Brown is skilled enough in terms of vision and passing.

Similarly whilst Hartley has his strengths in the set piece, he's not particularly skilled around the park.

LCD,George and Taylor could be the future. Just need to keep working on set piece.

Sam Vesty appointed as skills coach for duration of tour.

Londontiger do you rate Vesty as a coach?

And Yarde is OK. He's down the list but the last time he played for England (one of the Oz tests wasn't it?) he actually played very well. Got involved a lot more than I would have expected (maybe Nowell's style of play is influencing the other wingers) and looked powerful and dangerous ball in hand.

I don't see Taylor as the future at hooker, he just too small. Maybe it's because Wasps set piece has suffered but at times they've looked better without him.

At 6,2 - 16 and a half stone is he really that small? Sure he's not as heavy as some of the other hookers but surely he could put on a bit of weight?

I remember a few years ago some of the Sarries forwards like Kruis and George bulking up as a result of the physical beating by Clermont. I don't think it's impossible for Taylor to get a bit more power.

I think we're wedded to the 10/12 two handed approach, regardless of the personnel. Therefore this tour will give a look at Malinder, probably in tandem with Ford (is Lozowski injured?) and will tell us if he's overcome his shoulder injury and effected defensive issues.

A centre combination with Slade is very intriguing though I imaginge Devoto will probably start ahead of either of them. If he replaces Slade then I would start Slade from fullback.

Care
Ford
Solomona
Malinder
Devoto
May
Slade

Realistcally Slade is the best next fullback we have and that is because of his rugby inteligence/skills hands/boot overall vision

When you consider the wingers we have coming through in solomona cokanasiga earle...A couple of them grabbing their chance here may allow Watson or even Nowell to drop back to full back.