Judgement Day V

Selected Teams for Judgement Day V is as follows
Blues M. Morgan, A. Cuthbert, R Lee Lo, W Halaholo, R Williams, G Anscombe, L Williams, G Jenkins (c) K Dacy, T Filise, J Hoeata, M Cook, J Navidi, E Jenkins, N Williams with M Rees, R Gill, A Peikrishvili, J Down, S Bennett, T Williams, S Shingler and A Summerhill on the bench

Ospreys D Evans, K Giles, A Beck, J Matavesi, D Howells, S Davies, R Webb (c), N Smith, S Baldwin, B Mujati, BBBD, R Thornton, J King, J Tipuric and D Baker with S Otten, P James, R Jones, L Ashley, T Ardron, T Habberfield, L Price and K Fonotia on the bench.
Referee for this game is Andrew Brace (IRFU)

Dragons C Meyer, A Hughes, T Morgan, S Beard, A Warren, A O'Brien, C.Davies, S Hobbs, R Buckley, L Fairbrother, M Screech, C Hill, O Griffiths, N Cudd, and L Evans (c) with T R Thomas, P Price, B Harris, A Sweet, H Keddie, D Jones, T Prydie and J Dixon on the bench

Scarlets, J McNicholl, L Williams, J Davies, S Williams, S Evans, D Jones, G Davies, R Evans, K Owens, S Lee, J Ball, T Price, T Beirne, J Davies, and J Barclay with E Phillips, W Jones, W Kruger, D Bulbring, W Boyde, J Evans, H Parkes and DTH Van de Merwe on the bench.
Referee for this game is Nigel Owens.


Ospreys missing Dan Biggar and Sam Underhill for continuing HIAs, perhaps Dragons fans can give some light with no 9 on the bench, and to me no 10 on the bench for the Scarlets.

Really looking forward to my 5th successive Judgement Day, hoping for the same result as JD1 to JD4 for us.

I don't understand the no 9. I believe Adam Hughes will step in if required or Dorian. For me I'd have used somebody from the academy, but our genius leader doesn't want to do that. Because clearly a makeshift 9 is better than a real one, even given the age.

This week's random selection is bringing Screech in from the cold. Also, he moans about having to play Warren and Hughes on the wing and does it again anyway. Why not play Prydie an actual back 3 player?

They're doing their best to talk Cuthbert up again. I wish they wouldn't as McBryde isn't capable of picking a team on his own. He often requires gospel from the likes of Jiffy and Martyn Williams.....

Right then Dragons, surprise us, and create the second upset of the day.

Well, what to make of that, first things first, CONGRATULATIONS CARDIFF BLUES, totally outplayed us in the tackle area and breakdown ball battle, Ellis and Josh were superb, we just capitulated in those 2 areas, a couple of reasonably experienced Internationals had abysmal performances for us, and they have not been the first ones in the last month or so, one apparently is a shoo in to go with the Lions Rhys Webb his passing and decision making was terrible, as for Scott Baldwin on form he shouldn't even go with Wales to the South Sea Islands.

I know it might seem a tad biased even though Ellis was a totally deserved MOTM, the only player from us to put in a decent performance against that whole Blues backrow was Tips. A lot on our boards keep going on about Baker being our only decent carrier, but what is the point when he makes yards he then normally loses the ball in contact.

There is a lot of talk on our Forum for the exit of Steve Tandy, I wont jump on that bandwagon just yet, the thing is Steve doesn't pass the ball over the heads of his players, he doesn't lose the ball in contact, he doesn't pass the ball forward waaaayyy in front of a supporting winger who is flying and only has to receive to fetch us back into contention in the first half.

2 of the last 3 games in the GL have been the worst in attitude of aggression that I've seen in following the Ospreys since moving to the Liberty over 10 years ago, the game in a fortnight against Ulster is huge, if we don't win that one, there could be serious repercussions for Tandy.

Th Blues were on fire today.

Just for Wayne, from one of HIS fellow (Ospreys) supporters on Gwlad:

All is not well jn the OTR wrote:Not particularly directed at anyone on here, but the implosion of Tandy's Frak regime has been achingly predictable from the middle of the 14/15 season, when it became obvious that he was a thick as Poopie chancer who was being held in position by AWJ, Tipuric, Biggar and a rare spell of Webb in form.[br][br]He's a total incompetent, the product of idiocy by Hore. Hore's idiocy can be distilled as follows: dress up group think, job for the boys, matey circle jerks and any other euphemism for incestuous, pond-dwelling localism as something progressive and 'sustainable' - whatever that means - and allow a local idiot as a head coach, a moron from round the way as head recruiter and a dimwit from nearby as MD. [br][br]Sack these Frak Kumquat now, for Frak's sake. Look at the Frak galere of paper-thin pea-hearts, mercenaries on sabbatical, lard-gutted piss-takers with their eye on next year's new contract and all other assorted cream puffs they've put together. They're thick as Poopie too.[br][br]Frak these Meat trombone soloist.

mikey_dragon wrote:They're doing their best to talk Cuthbert up again. I wish they wouldn't as McBryde isn't capable of picking a team on his own. He often requires gospel from the likes of Jiffy and Martyn Williams.....

Deluded.

Any evidence of this, Mikey?

Eggcellent!
Plus the added bonus of AWJ losing his one true rag, off piste. Wished it'd happened at CAP. Could've been Dan Baughed into the south terrace, head first.

Probably the performance of the day was by young Dragons openside Ollie Griffiths, I only watched the first half live, caught up with the 2nd half this morning, a well deserved MOTM.

The only hope for the boy now is if the idiots at FONR actually vote no to the WRU proposal, and Regional Rugby ceases in Gwent. Ollie has the chance to join a decent Region, either of the 2 down West will do, but for him to learn from the best he should move to OSPREYLIA. With Justin probably away with TW more often than say James "Cubby" Davies, and the excellent Will Boyde, he'll get more game time at the OTR, and as I said he'll also learn from the best.

wayne wrote:Probably the performance of the day was by young Dragons openside Ollie Griffiths, I only watched the first half live, caught up with the 2nd half this morning, a well deserved MOTM.

The only hope for the boy now is if the idiots at FONR actually vote no to the WRU proposal, and Regional Rugby ceases in Gwent. Ollie has the chance to join a decent Region, either of the 2 down West will do, but for him to learn from the best he should move to OSPREYLIA. With Justin probably away with TW more often than say James "Cubby" Davies, and the excellent Will Boyde, he'll get more game time at the OTR, and as I said he'll also learn from the best.  

Always thought you were a decent poster, but your true colours have been shown. You hope the Dragons get shut down by politics so that you can get a decent player to join your team? You could always just bid for him, you know like most teams would do if they wanted to sign a player, rather than rely on a region shutting down so that you can swoop in for free. A*se.

Griff wrote:

wayne wrote:Probably the performance of the day was by young Dragons openside Ollie Griffiths, I only watched the first half live, caught up with the 2nd half this morning, a well deserved MOTM.

The only hope for the boy now is if the idiots at FONR actually vote no to the WRU proposal, and Regional Rugby ceases in Gwent. Ollie has the chance to join a decent Region, either of the 2 down West will do, but for him to learn from the best he should move to OSPREYLIA. With Justin probably away with TW more often than say James "Cubby" Davies, and the excellent Will Boyde, he'll get more game time at the OTR, and as I said he'll also learn from the best.  

Always thought you were a decent poster, but your true colours have been shown. You hope the Dragons get shut down by politics so that you can get a decent player to join your team? You could always just bid for him, you know like most teams would do if they wanted to sign a player, rather than rely on a region shutting down so that you can swoop in for free. A*se.

He's just gutted his fantasy love interest Johnny Blue Hat got served by Warburton's understudy yesterday. He must feel quite silly after all the turd he's smeared over the internet on the subject of no7's lately. Worst poster on the site, nay the internet

Harsh on Tipuric, he was our best player in the whole sh1tstravaganza the Ospreys served up yesterday. Worst I've ever seen us play....ever. The blues totally deserved the win. More desire, line speed from the backs and aggression through the forwards. The 17 points flattered us tbh. Wtf Matevesi was doing on the intercept is a mystery. Simple basic pass to Giles and he was in and it might of been a different game. Utter sh1te..
As for the day itself, standard judgement day. Bored kids and lashed up groups at their first game. Must've only been 20k in the stadium halfway thru the second game.
Decent pint of Guiness tho at the MS. 5 bucks a pop tho...

You've been worse in the past. Such as the time a Biarritz on relegations door thrashed your team full of internationals.

The so called galactico days.

mikey_dragon wrote:You've been worse in the past. Such as the time a Biarritz on relegations door thrashed your team full of internationals.

Mikey are you serious we had players like Tom Smith, Rhys Webb before internationals, Ashley Beck, Barry Davies, because of injuries Ryan Jones as our replacement 2nd row, Paul James when Duncan was first choice, yes we had a hiding, they were a team that had as many internationals as us. It wasn't so much the beating yesterday, it was the way we were outmuscled and out thought. The 2 matches in this group of games against Treviso and Blues in particular, was very non Ospreylike to me, we weren't breaking the gainline and getting knocked back when the Blues in particular were smashing it up.

wayne wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:You've been worse in the past. Such as the time a Biarritz on relegations door thrashed your team full of internationals.

Mikey are you serious we had players like Tom Smith, Rhys Webb before internationals, Ashley Beck, Barry Davies, because of injuries Ryan Jones as our replacement 2nd row, Paul James when Duncan was first choice, yes we had a hiding, they were a team that had as many internationals as us. It wasn't so much the beating yesterday, it was the way we were outmuscled and out thought. The 2 matches in this group of games against Treviso and Blues in particular, was very non Ospreylike to me, we weren't breaking the gainline and getting knocked back when the Blues in particular were smashing it up.  

It was completely Ospreylike - flat track bullies devoid of their few decent players get destroyed when the oppo don't roll over and die

Breadvan wrote:Harsh on Tipuric, he was our best player in the whole sh1tstravaganza the Ospreys served up yesterday. Worst I've ever seen us play....ever. The blues totally deserved the win. More desire, line speed from the backs and aggression through the forwards. The 17 points flattered us tbh. Wtf Matevesi was doing on the intercept is a mystery. Simple basic pass to Giles and he was in and it might of been a different game. Utter sh1te..
As for the day itself, standard judgement day. Bored kids and lashed up groups at their first game. Must've only been 20k in the stadium halfway thru the second game.
Decent pint of Guiness tho at the MS. 5 bucks a pop tho...

Public wants what the public gets.

Trouble at Millstone yesterday, I yur.
Footy hooligans i'd wager, what with the outstretched arms at 45 degrees and singing complete bollux.

Curious to know as to how come loads of club games throughout the reejuns were being played at the same time as the Os were losing their heads. Since it was the reejunal showcase, shouldn't all club games have been rescheduled?

wayne wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:You've been worse in the past. Such as the time a Biarritz on relegations door thrashed your team full of internationals.

Mikey are you serious we had players like Tom Smith, Rhys Webb before internationals, Ashley Beck, Barry Davies, because of injuries Ryan Jones as our replacement 2nd row, Paul James when Duncan was first choice, yes we had a hiding, they were a team that had as many internationals as us. It wasn't so much the beating yesterday, it was the way we were outmuscled and out thought. The 2 matches in this group of games against Treviso and Blues in particular, was very non Ospreylike to me, we weren't breaking the gainline and getting knocked back when the Blues in particular were smashing it up.  

I can't even remember Tom Smith. I'm not sure what has happened to Ospreys in recent weeks but they certainly don't look like themselves. I'll have to agree with the calls to axe Tandy as you know I've never really rated him - he managed to find himself in the right place at the right time, surrounded by quality players and kiwi coaches. If the team is going to move forward then they could do with a new coach as I don't believe Tandy can take them much further. He also isn't picking the best team available which he has a habit of doing.

On another note I can't wait for us (team Wales) to poach those centres running out for the Blues. Finally some backs with good feet.

mikey_dragon wrote:

wayne wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:You've been worse in the past. Such as the time a Biarritz on relegations door thrashed your team full of internationals.

Mikey are you serious we had players like Tom Smith, Rhys Webb before internationals, Ashley Beck, Barry Davies, because of injuries Ryan Jones as our replacement 2nd row, Paul James when Duncan was first choice, yes we had a hiding, they were a team that had as many internationals as us. It wasn't so much the beating yesterday, it was the way we were outmuscled and out thought. The 2 matches in this group of games against Treviso and Blues in particular, was very non Ospreylike to me, we weren't breaking the gainline and getting knocked back when the Blues in particular were smashing it up.  

I can't even remember Tom Smith. I'm not sure what has happened to Ospreys in recent weeks but they certainly don't look like themselves. I'll have to agree with the calls to axe Tandy as you know I've never really rated him - he managed to find himself in the right place at the right time, surrounded by quality players and kiwi coaches. If the team is going to move forward then they could do with a new coach as I don't believe Tandy can take them much further. He also isn't picking the best team available which he has a habit of doing.

On another note I can't wait for us (team Wales) to poach those centres running out for the Blues. Finally some backs with good feet.

Mikey, Tom IIRC had to retire 2 to 3 years ago with a serious knee injury, he'd taken his WRU Coaching badges and started off with one of the Academy groups, he's progressed this season to be definitely Forwards Coach for the Ospreys Groups that took part in the B&I Cup and the Anglo Welsh, Richard Fussell was the same for the backs, I'm not sure but I think Tom was in overall control of the Teams in those competitions. I also believe Tom was thought of something like Andrew Bishop in the backs for us, a real steady Eddie, who very rarely let you down, he was utilised a lot when the likes of Jonathon Thomas and Ryan Jones were away with TW. Edit, just went to have a look and Tom made 94 appearances for us with 27 as a replacement, he was 6'3" tall and played most of his rugby for us as a 6 or 8 but he even played in the 2nd row on a couple of occasions.

As for Steve Tandy, have to agree with you he is under a lot of pressure, and you have been consistent in your viewpoint, not only that but you put it across in a civilised manner, unlike some others who I could mention. The groundswell that want him removed is growing on our Forum, if we lose to Ulster and don't qualify for the GL Semi Finals it could see the ending of him.

Finally what you say about some of his selections whether for the Team or actually signing them for our Region has been suspect for a number of years, that will not help if we do not qualify for the GL SF.

Let me finally add, how nice to have a civilised conversation on here, probably one of the last I'll have.

wayne wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:

wayne wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:You've been worse in the past. Such as the time a Biarritz on relegations door thrashed your team full of internationals.

Mikey are you serious we had players like Tom Smith, Rhys Webb before internationals, Ashley Beck, Barry Davies, because of injuries Ryan Jones as our replacement 2nd row, Paul James when Duncan was first choice, yes we had a hiding, they were a team that had as many internationals as us. It wasn't so much the beating yesterday, it was the way we were outmuscled and out thought. The 2 matches in this group of games against Treviso and Blues in particular, was very non Ospreylike to me, we weren't breaking the gainline and getting knocked back when the Blues in particular were smashing it up.  

I can't even remember Tom Smith. I'm not sure what has happened to Ospreys in recent weeks but they certainly don't look like themselves. I'll have to agree with the calls to axe Tandy as you know I've never really rated him - he managed to find himself in the right place at the right time, surrounded by quality players and kiwi coaches. If the team is going to move forward then they could do with a new coach as I don't believe Tandy can take them much further. He also isn't picking the best team available which he has a habit of doing.

On another note I can't wait for us (team Wales) to poach those centres running out for the Blues. Finally some backs with good feet.

Mikey, Tom IIRC had to retire 2 to 3 years ago with a serious knee injury, he'd taken his WRU Coaching badges and started off with one of the Academy groups, he's progressed this season to be definitely Forwards Coach for the Ospreys Groups that took part in the B&I Cup and the Anglo Welsh, Richard Fussell was the same for the backs, I'm not sure but I think Tom was in overall control of the Teams in those competitions. I also believe Tom was thought of something like Andrew Bishop in the backs for us, a real steady Eddie, who very rarely let you down, he was utilised a lot when the likes of Jonathon Thomas and Ryan Jones were away with TW. Edit, just went to have a look and Tom made 94 appearances for us with 27 as a replacement, he was 6'3" tall and played most of his rugby for us as a 6 or 8 but he even played in the 2nd row on a couple of occasions.

As for Steve Tandy, have to agree with you he is under a lot of pressure, and you have been consistent in your viewpoint, not only that but you put it across in a civilised manner, unlike some others who I could mention. The groundswell that want him removed is growing on our Forum, if we lose to Ulster and don't qualify for the GL Semi Finals it could see the ending of him.

Finally what you say about some of his selections whether for the Team or actually signing them for our Region has been suspect for a number of years, that will not help if we do not qualify for the GL SF.

Let me finally add, how nice to have a civilised conversation on here, probably one of the last I'll have.

Still a bit jet-lagged so hope this comes out half-sensible.Haven't seen any of the Leinster game and only seen the Blues game on catch-up.Mates of mine from the West Country who come up for JD every year told me not to watch it as I wouldn't be happy.They were right.I wasn't.An absolute shocker.Anyway,to the point.

My mates were so enraged at the O's performance they tried to speak to the coaching team but were unsuccessful.They had better luck with some of the high-ups in O's management.They put it to them that given the 4 successive losses,the P5 L5 record against Leinster,Munster and Ulster,did they think the O's were one of Europe's leading teams? They got the answer that wasn't the case under the current coaching regime.They also asked whether they felt the team and players like Smith and Davies and others were being developed and improved.Same answer.Not under the current coaching regime.They couldn't get an answer to the question whether or not the team were playing for or had confidence in the coaching regime.

It would seem that irrespective of results against Ulster and the Scarlets,the O's EPCR campaign next year might be under a changed coaching regime.

Do you think the O's are one of Europe's leading teams?

Stone Motif wrote:Do you think the O's are one of Europe's leading teams?

No,they aren't and unless there's a radical change in the coaching regime it's unlikely any time soon.When you hear a Head Coach criticising his players in public and accusing them of the very non-learning which defines his team and player selection you know the management toaster is being prepared.Saying that the O's might surprise us all but thrashing Ulster and the Scarlets and winning 2 away matches to secure the GP12 title(however unlikely) wouldn't make the O's one of Europe's leading teams.Been found wanting too often.

Stone Motif wrote:Do you think the O's are one of Europe's leading teams?

In what categories?

Cardiff Dave wrote:

Stone Motif wrote:Do you think the O's are one of Europe's leading teams?

In what categories?

Spray tans. Gone are the days of Mumbles Sunset glow.

exile jack wrote:

wayne wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:

wayne wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:You've been worse in the past. Such as the time a Biarritz on relegations door thrashed your team full of internationals.

Mikey are you serious we had players like Tom Smith, Rhys Webb before internationals, Ashley Beck, Barry Davies, because of injuries Ryan Jones as our replacement 2nd row, Paul James when Duncan was first choice, yes we had a hiding, they were a team that had as many internationals as us. It wasn't so much the beating yesterday, it was the way we were outmuscled and out thought. The 2 matches in this group of games against Treviso and Blues in particular, was very non Ospreylike to me, we weren't breaking the gainline and getting knocked back when the Blues in particular were smashing it up.  

I can't even remember Tom Smith. I'm not sure what has happened to Ospreys in recent weeks but they certainly don't look like themselves. I'll have to agree with the calls to axe Tandy as you know I've never really rated him - he managed to find himself in the right place at the right time, surrounded by quality players and kiwi coaches. If the team is going to move forward then they could do with a new coach as I don't believe Tandy can take them much further. He also isn't picking the best team available which he has a habit of doing.

On another note I can't wait for us (team Wales) to poach those centres running out for the Blues. Finally some backs with good feet.

Mikey, Tom IIRC had to retire 2 to 3 years ago with a serious knee injury, he'd taken his WRU Coaching badges and started off with one of the Academy groups, he's progressed this season to be definitely Forwards Coach for the Ospreys Groups that took part in the B&I Cup and the Anglo Welsh, Richard Fussell was the same for the backs, I'm not sure but I think Tom was in overall control of the Teams in those competitions. I also believe Tom was thought of something like Andrew Bishop in the backs for us, a real steady Eddie, who very rarely let you down, he was utilised a lot when the likes of Jonathon Thomas and Ryan Jones were away with TW. Edit, just went to have a look and Tom made 94 appearances for us with 27 as a replacement, he was 6'3" tall and played most of his rugby for us as a 6 or 8 but he even played in the 2nd row on a couple of occasions.

As for Steve Tandy, have to agree with you he is under a lot of pressure, and you have been consistent in your viewpoint, not only that but you put it across in a civilised manner, unlike some others who I could mention. The groundswell that want him removed is growing on our Forum, if we lose to Ulster and don't qualify for the GL Semi Finals it could see the ending of him.

Finally what you say about some of his selections whether for the Team or actually signing them for our Region has been suspect for a number of years, that will not help if we do not qualify for the GL SF.

Let me finally add, how nice to have a civilised conversation on here, probably one of the last I'll have.

Still a bit jet-lagged so hope this comes out half-sensible.Haven't seen any of the Leinster game and only seen the Blues game on catch-up.Mates of mine from the West Country who come up for JD every year told me not to watch it as I wouldn't be happy.They were right.I wasn't.An absolute shocker.Anyway,to the point.

My mates were so enraged at the O's performance they tried to speak to the coaching team but were unsuccessful.They had better luck with some of the high-ups in O's management.They put it to them that given the 4 successive losses,the P5 L5 record against Leinster,Munster and Ulster,did they think the O's were one of Europe's leading teams? They got the answer that wasn't the case under the current coaching regime.They also asked whether they felt the team and players like Smith and Davies and others were being developed and improved.Same answer.Not under the current coaching regime.They couldn't get an answer to the question whether or not the team were playing for or had confidence in the coaching regime.

It would seem that irrespective of results against Ulster and the Scarlets,the O's EPCR campaign next year might be under a changed coaching regime.

Jack first things first, I hope you had a successful business trip, and things are looking up for you.

A couple of things. Why would you or your mates for that sake, think in any way should the Ospreys be one of the leading teams in Europe? When there is a great disparity in the amount of monies available to practically every other team that participate in not only RCC1 but RCC2. Why not phrase this question to all other Welsh Regions? Because the answer would be the same.

Secondly, both Davies and Smith have progressed from U20 into the Senior Welsh Squad, Smith in the Leinster game matched Furlong in the scrum and McGrath in the loose, those 2 have been widely tipped to be Lions tomorrow, and if anything that was probably the only facet of Saturdays game that we matched the Blues, and only a month or so ago and for many months before you was advocating Davies starting before Dan Biggar, so obviously the coaching staff must have been doing something right with him for you to take that viewpoint.

Apart from Saturdays game IMO, our defence has improved since the new Defence Coach Brad Davis has arrived, a new Forwards Coach Allen Clarke is due to come in, at the start of next season. Is Steve allowed a period in order to see whether these changes work? Judging by the responses on our Forum that answer is NO. To be honest I'm ambivalent, whatever happens I'll be there I'm not a fair weather supporter.
FFS the Football team that I follow nearly dropped out of the Football League about 5 to 10 years ago, now they are in the Championship and not far off the play offs, it is all cyclical.

Look Saturday was bad, together with the Treviso game have been as bad as anything that I've seen from the Liberty Stadium outfit since our move there. If you have the chance watch the Leinster game because we were only a kick away from winning that game, FYI look at the kick Sam took took on Saturday it was practically on the same trajectory as the one Dan missed against Stade the only difference was that Dan's was about 5 to 10 metres longer. Let me say part of the fault for that was down to the selection for that game, the one player that didn't enter the field for that game was Jonathon Spratt who was on the bench, when Ashley Beck wasn't selected and wasn't down as injured. If Beck had been on the bench would Dan have come back on and missed that kick? Probably not, that to me is a major fault of this regime. We continuously pick undersized and ineffective players and especially fetch in some of the worst signings in all of our History.

wayne wrote:

exile jack wrote:

wayne wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:

wayne wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:You've been worse in the past. Such as the time a Biarritz on relegations door thrashed your team full of internationals.

Mikey are you serious we had players like Tom Smith, Rhys Webb before internationals, Ashley Beck, Barry Davies, because of injuries Ryan Jones as our replacement 2nd row, Paul James when Duncan was first choice, yes we had a hiding, they were a team that had as many internationals as us. It wasn't so much the beating yesterday, it was the way we were outmuscled and out thought. The 2 matches in this group of games against Treviso and Blues in particular, was very non Ospreylike to me, we weren't breaking the gainline and getting knocked back when the Blues in particular were smashing it up.  

I can't even remember Tom Smith. I'm not sure what has happened to Ospreys in recent weeks but they certainly don't look like themselves. I'll have to agree with the calls to axe Tandy as you know I've never really rated him - he managed to find himself in the right place at the right time, surrounded by quality players and kiwi coaches. If the team is going to move forward then they could do with a new coach as I don't believe Tandy can take them much further. He also isn't picking the best team available which he has a habit of doing.

On another note I can't wait for us (team Wales) to poach those centres running out for the Blues. Finally some backs with good feet.

Mikey, Tom IIRC had to retire 2 to 3 years ago with a serious knee injury, he'd taken his WRU Coaching badges and started off with one of the Academy groups, he's progressed this season to be definitely Forwards Coach for the Ospreys Groups that took part in the B&I Cup and the Anglo Welsh, Richard Fussell was the same for the backs, I'm not sure but I think Tom was in overall control of the Teams in those competitions. I also believe Tom was thought of something like Andrew Bishop in the backs for us, a real steady Eddie, who very rarely let you down, he was utilised a lot when the likes of Jonathon Thomas and Ryan Jones were away with TW. Edit, just went to have a look and Tom made 94 appearances for us with 27 as a replacement, he was 6'3" tall and played most of his rugby for us as a 6 or 8 but he even played in the 2nd row on a couple of occasions.

As for Steve Tandy, have to agree with you he is under a lot of pressure, and you have been consistent in your viewpoint, not only that but you put it across in a civilised manner, unlike some others who I could mention. The groundswell that want him removed is growing on our Forum, if we lose to Ulster and don't qualify for the GL Semi Finals it could see the ending of him.

Finally what you say about some of his selections whether for the Team or actually signing them for our Region has been suspect for a number of years, that will not help if we do not qualify for the GL SF.

Let me finally add, how nice to have a civilised conversation on here, probably one of the last I'll have.

Still a bit jet-lagged so hope this comes out half-sensible.Haven't seen any of the Leinster game and only seen the Blues game on catch-up.Mates of mine from the West Country who come up for JD every year told me not to watch it as I wouldn't be happy.They were right.I wasn't.An absolute shocker.Anyway,to the point.

My mates were so enraged at the O's performance they tried to speak to the coaching team but were unsuccessful.They had better luck with some of the high-ups in O's management.They put it to them that given the 4 successive losses,the P5 L5 record against Leinster,Munster and Ulster,did they think the O's were one of Europe's leading teams? They got the answer that wasn't the case under the current coaching regime.They also asked whether they felt the team and players like Smith and Davies and others were being developed and improved.Same answer.Not under the current coaching regime.They couldn't get an answer to the question whether or not the team were playing for or had confidence in the coaching regime.

It would seem that irrespective of results against Ulster and the Scarlets,the O's EPCR campaign next year might be under a changed coaching regime.

Jack first things first, I hope you had a successful business trip, and things are looking up for you.

A couple of things. Why would you or your mates for that sake, think in any way should the Ospreys be one of the leading teams in Europe? When there is a great disparity in the amount of monies available to practically every other team that participate in not only RCC1 but RCC2. Why not phrase this question to all other Welsh Regions? Because the answer would be the same.

Secondly, both Davies and Smith have progressed from U20 into the Senior Welsh Squad, Smith in the Leinster game matched Furlong in the scrum and McGrath in the loose, those 2 have been widely tipped to be Lions tomorrow, and if anything that was probably the only facet of Saturdays game that we matched the Blues, and only a month or so ago and for many months before you was advocating Davies starting before Dan Biggar, so obviously the coaching staff must have been doing something right with him for you to take that viewpoint.

Apart from Saturdays game IMO, our defence has improved since the new Defence Coach Brad Davis has arrived, a new Forwards Coach Allen Clarke is due to come in, at the start of next season. Is Steve allowed a period in order to see whether these changes work? Judging by the responses on our Forum that answer is NO. To be honest I'm ambivalent, whatever happens I'll be there I'm not a fair weather supporter.
FFS the Football team that I follow nearly dropped out of the Football League about 5 to 10 years ago, now they are in the Championship and not far off the play offs, it is all cyclical.    

Look Saturday was bad, together with the Treviso game have been as bad as anything that I've seen from the Liberty Stadium outfit since our move there. If you have the chance watch the Leinster game because we were only a kick away from winning that game, FYI look at the kick Sam took took on Saturday it was practically on the same trajectory as the one Dan missed against Stade the only difference was that Dan's was about 5 to 10 metres longer. Let me say part of the fault for that was down to the selection for that game, the one player that didn't enter the field for that game was Jonathon Spratt who was on the bench, when Ashley Beck wasn't selected and wasn't down as injured. If Beck had been on the bench would Dan have come back on and missed that kick? Probably not, that to me is a major fault of this regime. We continuously pick undersized and ineffective players and especially fetch in some of the worst signings in all of our History.    

Not a bad trip all told but the supposed glamour of business travel is hugely overrated.

As I didn't see anything of the Leinster game and the Blues game only on catch-up I read your comments to my mates who,like me,thought almost all of your comments very reasonable.

What really got their goat on Saturday was their belief that the O's were clearly not prepared properly for the game,and B3D,Beck and Matavesi were not match fit.Added to that the shocking performances of Baldwin,Webb and King,the inability of Baker(again) to carry the ball into contact and retain it,and the no-shows of Smith and Thornton and you have the predictable outcome.It's almost remarkable that the second half was a 14-14 draw against what some Blues supporters are calling the greatest team performance in rugby history.Above all,they said to see a professional rugby XV have no contact at the breakdown strategy and no line speed as the alternative beggared belief.Without Tipuric a dire performance would have been diabolical.Their words not mine.

Where my mates and I do not agree with you is in our belief,shared by the O's MB,that there is NO reason why the O's shouldn't or can't be one of Europe's leading rugby teams.Our concern isn't the money or even player selection but rather the quality of the coaching regime.Now,if Tandy turns the O's around and silverware arrives at the Liberty this year i,my mates and a few people on here are going to look particularly stupid.But at the moment the coaching regime at the Liberty are not projecting an aura of either competence or success more a growing millstone of non-achievement.

Here's a few reasons for you - your squad shorn of its top Welsh internationals is garbage, and getting better players/coaches is going to take masses of investment if you want to keep pace. Oh, and that investment isn't coming via the PrO'12. I think what's happening to the NGD is the start of the collapse of professional rugby in Wales.

Stone Motif wrote:Here's a few reasons for you - your squad shorn of its top Welsh internationals is garbage, and getting better players/coaches is going to take masses of investment if you want to keep pace. Oh, and that investment isn't coming via the PrO'12. I think what's happening to the NGD is the start of the collapse of professional rugby in Wales.

I've only just started looking at the documentation surrounding the NGD situation but there appears little correlation between that and the position of the O's but if the NGD decisions do produce mammary verticality conclusions there will be players and money available to the RRW3.Hope it doesn't come to that but who knows.Don't agree about your TW comment,as the O's are bringing players through but the question remains over the O's coaching team's ability to develop the youngsters to their full potential.There's also the unresolved question of whether or not the Vale regime are developing or hindering fringe TW players during AI and 6N periods.This applies to all RRW fringe TW selectees.Finally,the O's and Scarlets are qualified for the EPCR premier event next season so we'll find out if their squads can cut the mustard.

What really got their goat on Saturday was their belief that the O's were clearly not prepared properly for the game,and B3D,Beck and Matavesi were not match fit.Added to that the shocking performances of Baldwin,Webb and King,the inability of Baker(again) to carry the ball into contact and retain it,and the no-shows of Smith and Thornton and you have the predictable outcome.It's almost remarkable that the second half was a 14-14 draw against what some Blues supporters are calling the greatest team performance in rugby history.Above all,they said to see a professional rugby XV have no contact at the breakdown strategy and no line speed as the alternative beggared belief.Without Tipuric a dire performance would have been diabolical.Their words not mine.

Jack watch what you say about Justin, you'll be accused in some sort of language of having a hard on for him. A lot of what you say I've already said on here and on our own Forum, especially about Webb's passing, Baldwins form, the pass from Matavesi to Giles, Bakers lack of contact skills. I put them on as nothing to do with Tandy and company. The infatuation of our scrum halves to pass the ball to Baldwin just as he is the first receiver with NO backup rather than the 2nd line which normally includes backs, I think you and your mates are a bit harsh on BBBD, this is his first start from very early in the season, (he was a bench option in the Stade match), he'll be all the better for this match, I just hope our esteemed captain is there in some capacity for the Ulster game. If you can remember very early in the season I was advocating Ardron as the best 8 playing in Wales, how he is not the starting 6 or 8 for us is beyond belief, especially if both Lydiate and Underhill are not available, he's as good a lineout option as King and as good a carrier as Baker.

Finally a 23 man squad of for instance Hook or Evans, Giles, Watkin, Fonotia, Beck, Hassler, Biggar (if he's still with us)/Davies, Webb/Habberfield, Smith/James, Parry/Otten, Arhip/????, AWJ, BBBD/ Beard or Thornton, Lydiate, Tipuric, Ardron/King. I know there are 24 in that squad, couldn't make my mind up between Thornton and Beard, not sure if Fia is any good under these scrummaging laws, perhaps we'll have to go shopping for one of these, he apparently was excellent in NZ under the old interpretations, I do know Daimitri rates him, although it hasn't shown up often in actual games, what we do know is that Rhodri Jones will never make a decent T/H, because numerous decent coaches including Danny Wilson have tried and failed. We need to end this experiment now, as you say in your other post there are numerous good youngsters coming through. That squad with other players like Dafydd Howells, Walker, Dirksen, Joe Thomas,Mathew Aubrey, Keiran Williams, Cory Allen, Will Jones (Wales U20s Captain), Reuben Morgan Williams now all emerging, in a couple of years most of these will be challenging the established first teamers. I think I misunderstood your initial point, that squad with possibly another decent tight head, can make a decent fist of things in RCC1 with most of the 2nd, 3rd and 4th seeds. They are not good enough for the first seeds as of now, but who knows in a couple of years?

exile jack wrote:

Stone Motif wrote:Here's a few reasons for you - your squad shorn of its top Welsh internationals is garbage, and getting better players/coaches is going to take masses of investment if you want to keep pace. Oh, and that investment isn't coming via the PrO'12. I think what's happening to the NGD is the start of the collapse of professional rugby in Wales.

I've only just started looking at the documentation surrounding the NGD situation but there appears little correlation between that and the position of the O's but if the NGD decisions do produce mammary verticality conclusions there will be players and money available to the RRW3.Hope it doesn't come to that but who knows.Don't agree about your TW comment,as the O's are bringing players through but the question remains over the O's coaching team's ability to develop the youngsters to their full potential.There's also the unresolved question of whether or not the Vale regime are developing or hindering fringe TW players during AI and 6N periods.This applies to all RRW fringe TW selectees.Finally,the O's and Scarlets are qualified for the EPCR premier event next season so we'll  find out if their squads can cut the mustard.

That's the crux of the disagreement I guess. I just don't see the quality of Welsh journeyman players in any of the four, jnclyding the O's. Best of a bad bunch they may be but the likes of Baldwin, Baker etc. are awful players. What do you class as bringing through?

The Dragons situation shows that private investment is finite and running out. What is available cannot mitigate the fact we are stuck in a moribund league nor allow us to spend what our rivals are spending. We go to three and pretty soon it will be two, then one...

wayne wrote:What really got their goat on Saturday was their belief that the O's were clearly not prepared properly for the game,and B3D,Beck and Matavesi were not match fit.Added to that the shocking performances of Baldwin,Webb and King,the inability of Baker(again) to carry the ball into contact and retain it,and the no-shows of Smith and Thornton and you have the predictable outcome.It's almost remarkable that the second half was a 14-14 draw against what some Blues supporters are calling the greatest team performance in rugby history.Above all,they said to see a professional rugby XV have no contact at the breakdown strategy and no line speed as the alternative beggared belief.Without Tipuric a dire performance would have been diabolical.Their words not mine.

Jack watch what you say about Justin, you'll be accused in some sort of language of having a hard on for him. A lot of what you say I've already said on here and on our own Forum, especially about Webb's passing, Baldwins form, the pass from Matavesi to Giles, Bakers lack of contact skills. I put them on as nothing to do with Tandy and company. The infatuation of our scrum halves to pass the ball to Baldwin just as he is the first receiver with NO backup rather than the 2nd line which normally includes backs, I think you and your mates are a bit harsh on BBBD, this is his first start from very early in the season, (he was a bench option in the Stade match), he'll be all the better for this match, I just hope our esteemed captain is there in some capacity for the Ulster game. If you can remember very early in the season I was advocating Ardron as the best 8 playing in Wales, how he is not the starting 6 or 8 for us is beyond belief, especially if both Lydiate and Underhill are not available, he's as good a lineout option as King and as good a carrier as Baker.

Finally a 23 man squad of for instance Hook or Evans, Giles, Watkin, Fonotia, Beck, Hassler, Biggar (if he's still with us)/Davies, Webb/Habberfield, Smith/James, Parry/Otten, Arhip/????, AWJ, BBBD/ Beard or Thornton, Lydiate, Tipuric, Ardron/King. I know there are 24 in that squad, couldn't make my mind up between Thornton and Beard, not sure if Fia is any good under these scrummaging laws, perhaps we'll have to go shopping for one of these, he apparently was excellent in NZ under the old interpretations, I do know Daimitri rates him, although it hasn't shown up often in actual games, what we do know is that Rhodri Jones will never make a decent T/H, because numerous decent coaches including Danny Wilson have tried and failed. We need to end this experiment now, as you say in your other post there are numerous good youngsters coming through. That squad with other players like Dafydd Howells, Walker, Dirksen, Joe Thomas,Mathew Aubrey, Keiran Williams, Cory Allen, Will Jones (Wales U20s Captain), Reuben Morgan Williams now all emerging, in a couple of years most of these will be challenging the established first teamers. I think I misunderstood your initial point, that squad with possibly another decent tight head, can make a decent fist of things in RCC1 with most of the 2nd, 3rd and 4th seeds. They are not good enough for the first seeds as of now, but who knows in a couple of years?

Wayne,apparently B3D was blowing like a donkey after 20 minutes and he didn't look like the player he was when playing for Dai Young but if he wasn't match fit Tandy could have played Ardron and brought B3D on for 30 minutes.I think B3D owes the O's a couple of huge games and scaring the oui oui out of Thornton to get big performances from him.Don't know where Cracknell was?

It's rumoured Napoleon said he had plenty of clever generals but preferred generals who were lucky.I don't think Tandy and his team are lucky but they've got 2 possibly 4 games to prove they're the coaching team for next season but their team selection and tactics do seem quixotic to the point of asking do they really know their preferred team.

Presumably someone on the O's MB is assessing the quality and development of youngsters coming through the system and whether or not they are receiving the benefit of excellent coaching.

I don't know the game review protocols at the O's but at a Q and A event at the Quins last year the players fielded were clear that at Quins the process could be brutal with no player or coach exempted from critical review irrespective of seniority or status.Hope that applies at the O's.

Stone Motif wrote:

exile jack wrote:

Stone Motif wrote:Here's a few reasons for you - your squad shorn of its top Welsh internationals is garbage, and getting better players/coaches is going to take masses of investment if you want to keep pace. Oh, and that investment isn't coming via the PrO'12. I think what's happening to the NGD is the start of the collapse of professional rugby in Wales.

I've only just started looking at the documentation surrounding the NGD situation but there appears little correlation between that and the position of the O's but if the NGD decisions do produce mammary verticality conclusions there will be players and money available to the RRW3.Hope it doesn't come to that but who knows.Don't agree about your TW comment,as the O's are bringing players through but the question remains over the O's coaching team's ability to develop the youngsters to their full potential.There's also the unresolved question of whether or not the Vale regime are developing or hindering fringe TW players during AI and 6N periods.This applies to all RRW fringe TW selectees.Finally,the O's and Scarlets are qualified for the EPCR premier event next season so we'll  find out if their squads can cut the mustard.

That's the crux of the disagreement I guess. I just don't see the quality of Welsh journeyman players in any of the four, jnclyding the O's. Best of a bad bunch they may be but the likes of Baldwin, Baker etc. are awful players. What do you class as bringing through?

The Dragons situation shows that private investment is finite and running out. What is available cannot mitigate the fact we are stuck in a moribund league nor allow us to spend what our rivals are spending. We go to three and pretty soon it will be two, then one...

Leaving aside the creative accounting one is not supposed to mention exists in the Top14 and the Aviva the NGD situation does seem particularly crazy with the scale and longevity of investment by 2 individuals.But the problem of success bringing investment but investment needed for success is not just confined to NGD,the other Welsh Regions,Welsh,Irish,Scottish,English,French and S Hemisphere rugby,it applies to many sports.

I think the U20s are showing real talent coming through but is RRW and TW coaching good enough to ensure the potential talent is realised?

I don't know what's gone wrong with Baldwin but with Parry and Otten coming through he needs to shape up or ship out.Baker's problem is his switch between the sublime and the ridiculous but not in a predictable way.I don't have a problem with journeymen as long as they give of their best consistently and their coaches give them sound basic skills.

Really hope the NGD situation gets resolved because having no professional rugby in Gwent would be a very sad outcome.

exile jack wrote:

wayne wrote:What really got their goat on Saturday was their belief that the O's were clearly not prepared properly for the game,and B3D,Beck and Matavesi were not match fit.Added to that the shocking performances of Baldwin,Webb and King,the inability of Baker(again) to carry the ball into contact and retain it,and the no-shows of Smith and Thornton and you have the predictable outcome.It's almost remarkable that the second half was a 14-14 draw against what some Blues supporters are calling the greatest team performance in rugby history.Above all,they said to see a professional rugby XV have no contact at the breakdown strategy and no line speed as the alternative beggared belief.Without Tipuric a dire performance would have been diabolical.Their words not mine.

Jack watch what you say about Justin, you'll be accused in some sort of language of having a hard on for him. A lot of what you say I've already said on here and on our own Forum, especially about Webb's passing, Baldwins form, the pass from Matavesi to Giles, Bakers lack of contact skills. I put them on as nothing to do with Tandy and company. The infatuation of our scrum halves to pass the ball to Baldwin just as he is the first receiver with NO backup rather than the 2nd line which normally includes backs, I think you and your mates are a bit harsh on BBBD, this is his first start from very early in the season, (he was a bench option in the Stade match), he'll be all the better for this match, I just hope our esteemed captain is there in some capacity for the Ulster game. If you can remember very early in the season I was advocating Ardron as the best 8 playing in Wales, how he is not the starting 6 or 8 for us is beyond belief, especially if both Lydiate and Underhill are not available, he's as good a lineout option as King and as good a carrier as Baker.

Finally a 23 man squad of for instance Hook or Evans, Giles, Watkin, Fonotia, Beck, Hassler, Biggar (if he's still with us)/Davies, Webb/Habberfield, Smith/James, Parry/Otten, Arhip/????, AWJ, BBBD/ Beard or Thornton, Lydiate, Tipuric, Ardron/King. I know there are 24 in that squad, couldn't make my mind up between Thornton and Beard, not sure if Fia is any good under these scrummaging laws, perhaps we'll have to go shopping for one of these, he apparently was excellent in NZ under the old interpretations, I do know Daimitri rates him, although it hasn't shown up often in actual games, what we do know is that Rhodri Jones will never make a decent T/H, because numerous decent coaches including Danny Wilson have tried and failed. We need to end this experiment now, as you say in your other post there are numerous good youngsters coming through. That squad with other players like Dafydd Howells, Walker, Dirksen, Joe Thomas,Mathew Aubrey, Keiran Williams, Cory Allen, Will Jones (Wales U20s Captain), Reuben Morgan Williams now all emerging, in a couple of years most of these will be challenging the established first teamers. I think I misunderstood your initial point, that squad with possibly another decent tight head, can make a decent fist of things in RCC1 with most of the 2nd, 3rd and 4th seeds. They are not good enough for the first seeds as of now, but who knows in a couple of years?

Wayne,apparently B3D was blowing like a donkey after 20 minutes and he didn't look like the player he was when playing for Dai Young but if he wasn't match fit Tandy could have played Ardron and brought B3D on for 30 minutes.I think B3D owes the O's a couple of huge games and scaring the oui oui out of Thornton to get big performances from him.Don't know where Cracknell was?

It's rumoured Napoleon said he had plenty of clever generals but preferred generals who were lucky.I don't think Tandy and his team are lucky but they've got 2 possibly 4 games to prove they're the coaching team for next season but their team selection and tactics do seem quixotic to the point of asking do they really know their preferred team.

Presumably someone on the O's MB is assessing the quality and development of youngsters coming through the system and whether or not they are receiving the benefit of excellent coaching.

I don't know the game review protocols at the O's but at a Q and A event at the Quins last year the players fielded were clear that at Quins the process could be brutal with no player or coach exempted from critical review irrespective of seniority or status.Hope that applies at the O's.

Jack what you are saying about BBBD, owing us is absolutely spot on, and if him and AWJ are available they should make a pretty decent boilerhouse against Ulster, I thought our lineout work on JD5 was pretty good and Thornton equipped himself pretty well in that facet of the game, it's in the loose he lets himself down, personally I always would have at least a 3 option lineout, that was covered in that game, it was in the loose where especially Baldwin, Baker and King were totally ineffectual, changing those 3 for Parry or Otten, Ardron and Cracknell would still have the 3 option, better carrying and retention.
Jack I've sent you a PM, could you please use that function and reply
Thanks Wayne

Stone Motif wrote:

exile jack wrote:

Stone Motif wrote:Here's a few reasons for you - your squad shorn of its top Welsh internationals is garbage, and getting better players/coaches is going to take masses of investment if you want to keep pace. Oh, and that investment isn't coming via the PrO'12. I think what's happening to the NGD is the start of the collapse of professional rugby in Wales.

I've only just started looking at the documentation surrounding the NGD situation but there appears little correlation between that and the position of the O's but if the NGD decisions do produce mammary verticality conclusions there will be players and money available to the RRW3.Hope it doesn't come to that but who knows.Don't agree about your TW comment,as the O's are bringing players through but the question remains over the O's coaching team's ability to develop the youngsters to their full potential.There's also the unresolved question of whether or not the Vale regime are developing or hindering fringe TW players during AI and 6N periods.This applies to all RRW fringe TW selectees.Finally,the O's and Scarlets are qualified for the EPCR premier event next season so we'll  find out if their squads can cut the mustard.

That's the crux of the disagreement I guess. I just don't see the quality of Welsh journeyman players in any of the four, jnclyding the O's. Best of a bad bunch they may be but the likes of Baldwin, Baker etc. are awful players. What do you class as bringing through?

The Dragons situation shows that private investment is finite and running out. What is available cannot mitigate the fact we are stuck in a moribund league nor allow us to spend what our rivals are spending. We go to three and pretty soon it will be two, then one...

then back to being fully amateur again?
I think i'd like that.

exile jack wrote:

It's rumoured Napoleon said he had plenty of clever generals but preferred generals who were lucky.

Ran out of both towards the end, so employed Gatland battle tactics - aerial bombardment and pounding up the guts.

Cardiff Dave wrote:

exile jack wrote:

It's rumoured Napoleon said he had plenty of clever generals but preferred generals who were lucky.

Ran out of both towards the end, so employed Gatland battle tactics - aerial bombardment and pounding up the guts.

But as we all know,if Napoleon had had McBryde,Howley and Jenkins as his Generals he'd never have made it to Waterloo,though contemporary records reveal Napoleon did say that his boys had gone well in training.

exile jack wrote:

Cardiff Dave wrote:

exile jack wrote:

It's rumoured Napoleon said he had plenty of clever generals but preferred generals who were lucky.

Ran out of both towards the end, so employed Gatland battle tactics - aerial bombardment and pounding up the guts.

But as we all know,if Napoleon had had McBryde,Howley and Jenkins as his Generals he'd never have made it to Waterloo,though contemporary records reveal Napoleon did say that his boys had gone well in training.

Twas unfortunate that the feint to the left, failed to create a 2 on 1 local superiority towards the right, coz the oppo didn't commit numbers at the breakdown.

[quote="Cardiff Dave"]

exile jack wrote:

Cardiff Dave wrote:

exile jack wrote:

It's rumoured Napoleon said he had plenty of clever generals but preferred generals who were lucky.

Ran out of both towards the end, so employed Gatland battle tactics - aerial bombardment and pounding up the guts.[/quote

But as we all know,if Napoleon had had McBryde,Howley and Jenkins as his Generals he'd never have made it to Waterloo,though contemporary records reveal Napoleon did say that his boys had gone well in training.

Twas unfortunate that the feint to the left, failed to create a 2 on 1 local superiority towards the right, coz the oppo didn't commit numbers at the breakdown.

But did you know that Peter Thomas' ancestors had the pie concession for St Helena!!

exile jack wrote:
But did you know that Peter Thomas' ancestors had the pie concession for St Helena!!

[/quote]

Thomas nee Miggins.
My favourite is the big sausage roll aka horse c*ck in flaky pastry.

Cardiff Dave wrote:

exile jack wrote:
But did you know that Peter Thomas' ancestors had the pie concession for St Helena!!

Thomas nee Miggins.
My favourite is the big sausage roll aka horse c*ck in flaky pastry.

[/quote]

Courage beyond all reason.