Political round up.............

CaledonianCraig wrote:

GSC wrote:The Scots voted to remain part of the UK.

The UK voted to leave the EU. Every Scottish vote counted the same as every other UK citizen. I don't see the issue.

The Scots (a good number if you look at post-ref stats from neutral sources) decided to vote no on varying issues. One of the main ones was because they feared losing their place in Europe. That won loads of votes for Better Together and has proved to be fruitless for the voters as they are now out of Europe.

The issue is that many Scots sees Scotland as its own country - sure not independent - but very close to it as they have their own government. However, when they vote by 62% to remain in Europe and end up being taken out of Europe it becomes a big issue to many. Yes we know the UK voted to exit but there are perhaps a million plus Scots who fail to recognize or accept being part of the UK or see themselves Scottish first and foremost and feel how they vote should hold more water than it does in the current union.

Sorry Craig, but that's democracy. Why should somebody in Edinburghs vote count more than someone's in London? Almost as ridiculous as Mhairi Black complaining that a region with more inhabitants had more MPs representing it than another region with less MPs.

But such is the politics of the SNP, always phrasing as Scotland vs the rest of the UK (or more accurately England) when Scotland voted to be part of the UK.

Derbymanc wrote:Well they're wrong then Craig, there vote is the same as everyone else's. Just because they a bit more nationalistic it means squat in the grand scheme of things.

I think another referendum vote on Scotland would be a good thing, although the GE could pave the way if the SNP obliterates everyone else.

Spin is bad on both sides Craig, i'm pretty certain if you'd won (you didn't ;-) you wouldn't be bleating about the spin from your own side (that pesky oil and the barnett report being 'wrong') it's unfortunately what happens in politics. Is it right (No) but both sides are just as bad. Just cause one won doesn't mean that it's worse than the other.

What are you going to keep having votes until they are independent ??...............

Craig should be more interested in finding out why after years of wanting a referendum they didn't even know simple things like what Currency they wanted to use....

It's all IFS.............

If they are allowed back into the EU..
If they can sustain...

If this.....................If that...

I prefer definitely maybes at the very worst...........If I were Scottish I'd be voting with my head not my heart.

Derbymanc wrote:Well they're wrong then Craig, there vote is the same as everyone else's. Just because they a bit more nationalistic it means squat in the grand scheme of things.

I think another referendum vote on Scotland would be a good thing, although the GE could pave the way if the SNP obliterates everyone else.

Spin is bad on both sides Craig, i'm pretty certain if you'd won (you didn't ;-) you wouldn't be bleating about the spin from your own side (that pesky oil and the barnett report being 'wrong') it's unfortunately what happens in politics. Is it right (No) but both sides are just as bad. Just cause one won doesn't mean that it's worse than the other.

Definitely agree to disagree. One thing I am comfortable with is that independence will happen sometime in the future. You just need to look at the demographics of the voting public in Scotland for that. Support for independence once stood at around 20 to 25% in the early 80s but since then it has continued to steadily rise and now stands at 45% and still rising. The younger generation are strongly pro-independence (around 70%) whilst the older generation are strongly pro-union (also around 70%) - one of those groups have around 50 years ahead of them whilst the other has 10 years. Couple to that a hard Brexit on the horizon and more years of Westminster calamity governments and that isn't going to convert the masses to back the unionist cause - quite the opposite. The genie is out of the bottle and the stopper is lost.

No but I think there's a point about the spin (although had the tories already said there'd be a referendum on EU before then?).

If you vote for something which then turns out to be a blatant lie then the option should be put back on the table with everything laid out properly. It'll never happen though but it's a nice thought all the same

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:

Derbymanc wrote:Well they're wrong then Craig, there vote is the same as everyone else's. Just because they a bit more nationalistic it means squat in the grand scheme of things.

I think another referendum vote on Scotland would be a good thing, although the GE could pave the way if the SNP obliterates everyone else.

Spin is bad on both sides Craig, i'm pretty certain if you'd won (you didn't ;-) you wouldn't be bleating about the spin from your own side (that pesky oil and the barnett report being 'wrong') it's unfortunately what happens in politics. Is it right (No) but both sides are just as bad. Just cause one won doesn't mean that it's worse than the other.

What are you going to keep having votes until they are independent ??...............

Craig should be more interested in finding out why after years of wanting a referendum they didn't even know simple things like what Currency they wanted to use....

It's all IFS.............

If they are allowed back into the EU..
If they can sustain...

If this.....................If that...

I prefer definitely maybes at the very worst...........If I were Scottish I'd be voting with my head not my heart.

Life is all about IFS it is all about IFS in this union as well. The big difference is Scotland's voice is not heard and never will be as things stand in this union. IF Scotland had a voice in it we would still be in Europe. IF Theresa May's government was competent they wouldn't have made an embarrassing balls-up in the recent budget. IF we were to believe Theresa May now was not the time for a referendum but it is time for an election.

CaledonianCraig wrote:

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:

Derbymanc wrote:Well they're wrong then Craig, there vote is the same as everyone else's. Just because they a bit more nationalistic it means squat in the grand scheme of things.

I think another referendum vote on Scotland would be a good thing, although the GE could pave the way if the SNP obliterates everyone else.

Spin is bad on both sides Craig, i'm pretty certain if you'd won (you didn't ;-) you wouldn't be bleating about the spin from your own side (that pesky oil and the barnett report being 'wrong') it's unfortunately what happens in politics. Is it right (No) but both sides are just as bad. Just cause one won doesn't mean that it's worse than the other.

What are you going to keep having votes until they are independent ??...............

Craig should be more interested in finding out why after years of wanting a referendum they didn't even know simple things like what Currency they wanted to use....

It's all IFS.............

If they are allowed back into the EU..
If they can sustain...

If this.....................If that...

I prefer definitely maybes at the very worst...........If I were Scottish I'd be voting with my head not my heart.

Life is all about IFS it is all about IFS in this union as well. The big difference is Scotland's voice is not heard and never will be as things stand in this union. IF Scotland had a voice in it we would still be in Europe. IF Theresa May's government was competent they wouldn't have made an embarrassing balls-up in the recent budget. IF we were to believe Theresa May now was not the time for a referendum but it is time for an election.  

That is one of the worst attempts at rebuttal I have ever seen....

Derbymanc wrote:No but I think there's a point about the spin (although had the tories already said there'd be a referendum on EU before then?).

If you vote for something which then turns out to be a blatant lie then the option should be put back on the table with everything laid out properly. It'll never happen though but it's a nice thought all the same

On the GE though I am not a Lib-Dem fan but their leader is spot on with what he says about Brexit. The option was on yes or no to exit Europe with no added in brackets promise of it being Yes with a Hard Brexit. How many doubting Brexit backers would have voted yes if they had been told a hard Brexit was part of it?

The younger generation will get older and the main driving force behind independence, the SNP, will over the next few years suffer the same fate as every other party that spends a lot of time in government - familiarity breeds contempt.

If a second referendum is held and lost over the next 5 few years then much of the momentum will have been lost and I think you may see support for independence fall back down somewhere around 35%.

The next UK government can only be more left/centrist than the current one. A populist more left leaning centrist party would hit the independence movement hard!

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:

CaledonianCraig wrote:

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:

Derbymanc wrote:Well they're wrong then Craig, there vote is the same as everyone else's. Just because they a bit more nationalistic it means squat in the grand scheme of things.

I think another referendum vote on Scotland would be a good thing, although the GE could pave the way if the SNP obliterates everyone else.

Spin is bad on both sides Craig, i'm pretty certain if you'd won (you didn't ;-) you wouldn't be bleating about the spin from your own side (that pesky oil and the barnett report being 'wrong') it's unfortunately what happens in politics. Is it right (No) but both sides are just as bad. Just cause one won doesn't mean that it's worse than the other.

What are you going to keep having votes until they are independent ??...............

Craig should be more interested in finding out why after years of wanting a referendum they didn't even know simple things like what Currency they wanted to use....

It's all IFS.............

If they are allowed back into the EU..
If they can sustain...

If this.....................If that...

I prefer definitely maybes at the very worst...........If I were Scottish I'd be voting with my head not my heart.

Life is all about IFS it is all about IFS in this union as well. The big difference is Scotland's voice is not heard and never will be as things stand in this union. IF Scotland had a voice in it we would still be in Europe. IF Theresa May's government was competent they wouldn't have made an embarrassing balls-up in the recent budget. IF we were to believe Theresa May now was not the time for a referendum but it is time for an election.  

That is one of the worst attempts at rebuttal I have ever seen....

Of course life is all about IFs and what ifs especially in political matters. Being in the union is all about ifs as well and to claim otherwise is just sheer folly.

CaledonianCraig wrote:

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:

Derbymanc wrote:Well they're wrong then Craig, there vote is the same as everyone else's. Just because they a bit more nationalistic it means squat in the grand scheme of things.

I think another referendum vote on Scotland would be a good thing, although the GE could pave the way if the SNP obliterates everyone else.

Spin is bad on both sides Craig, i'm pretty certain if you'd won (you didn't ;-) you wouldn't be bleating about the spin from your own side (that pesky oil and the barnett report being 'wrong') it's unfortunately what happens in politics. Is it right (No) but both sides are just as bad. Just cause one won doesn't mean that it's worse than the other.

What are you going to keep having votes until they are independent ??...............

Craig should be more interested in finding out why after years of wanting a referendum they didn't even know simple things like what Currency they wanted to use....

It's all IFS.............

If they are allowed back into the EU..
If they can sustain...

If this.....................If that...

I prefer definitely maybes at the very worst...........If I were Scottish I'd be voting with my head not my heart.

Life is all about IFS it is all about IFS in this union as well. The big difference is Scotland's voice is not heard and never will be as things stand in this union. IF Scotland had a voice in it we would still be in Europe. IF Theresa May's government was competent they wouldn't have made an embarrassing balls-up in the recent budget. IF we were to believe Theresa May now was not the time for a referendum but it is time for an election.  

If the SNP was competent they would have passed more than one bill in the last 12 months. The bill they passed was the Scottish budget which they are constitutionally required to pass. Other than that, nothing, nada, zilch.

Brexit was a massive clusterF and both sides messed up massively at the end of the day. I think it's about time MPs were held to the promise's they made and should be outed if they've blatantly lied.

Derbymanc wrote:No but I think there's a point about the spin (although had the tories already said there'd be a referendum on EU before then?).

If you vote for something which then turns out to be a blatant lie then the option should be put back on the table with everything laid out properly. It'll never happen though but it's a nice thought all the same

Think it was part of GE2015 manifesto so after independence referendum.

Ultimately Scotland is not a sovereign nation (unlike UK) and cannot demand or hold a referendum about independence without permission from Westminster. The SNP do not have a mandate as they cannot promise a referendum in a manifesto - if they do they are lying, they can promise to ask for one but the Westminster government will have to vote on allowing it.

There is no chance the Westminster government will allow it as they will not want any sort of hard border on the British Isles, much less a land border with an EU nation (as Scotland aspire to be) following leaving the EU.

superflyweight wrote:The younger generation will get older and the main driving force behind independence, the SNP, will over the next few years suffer the same fate as every other party that spends a lot of time in government - familiarity breeds contempt.  

If a second referendum is held and lost over the next 5 few years then much of the momentum will have been lost and I think you may see support for independence fall back down somewhere around 35%.    

The next UK government can only be more left/centrist than the current one.  A populist more left leaning centrist party would hit the independence movement hard!

Well first up no - as the SNP has now held the reins of power for a decade and polls suggest there is no sign of a decline in their popularity. And lets remember that the option is puppet politicians. As in Tory or Labour MP's who will tow the Westminster party line first and foremost whether it is detriment to Scotland or not. That has been the case for so long now.

Sorry but what you are suggesting is a view based on something that hasn't happened for about three or four decades - a noticable fall in support for independence so why should it happen now with hard Brexit on the horizon and a Tory government that treats Scotland with disdain and set for a lengthy looking tenure.

The push for Independence won't go away and certainly the cavalry for the unionist backers will not come in the form of a Westminster government in my opinion.

superflyweight wrote:The younger generation will get older and the main driving force behind independence, the SNP, will over the next few years suffer the same fate as every other party that spends a lot of time in government - familiarity breeds contempt.  

If a second referendum is held and lost over the next 5 few years then much of the momentum will have been lost and I think you may see support for independence fall back down somewhere around 35%.    !

SNP and Independence aren't mutually exclusive.......Labour for independence was headed by former leader Johann Lamont.

But no doubts it helps the independence course for the SNP to look competent..............

Worth Craig remembering Labour wouldn't be hassled by the incompetent Westminster party should Scotland be liberated.....Different boundaries will be drawn up...

Like UKIP the SNP may find less support post independence.......Job done!! as it were..

The EU certainly wouldn't allow an open border between Scotland and England.

CaledonianCraig wrote:

superflyweight wrote:The younger generation will get older and the main driving force behind independence, the SNP, will over the next few years suffer the same fate as every other party that spends a lot of time in government - familiarity breeds contempt.  

If a second referendum is held and lost over the next 5 few years then much of the momentum will have been lost and I think you may see support for independence fall back down somewhere around 35%.    

The next UK government can only be more left/centrist than the current one.  A populist more left leaning centrist party would hit the independence movement hard!

Well first up no - as the SNP has now held the reins of power for a decade and polls suggest there is no sign of a decline in their popularity. And lets remember that the option is puppet politicians. As in Tory or Labour MP's who will tow the Westminster party line first and foremost whether it is detriment to Scotland or not. That has been the case for so long now.

Sorry but what you are suggesting is a view based on something that hasn't happened for about three or four decades - a noticable fall in support for independence so why should it happen now with hard Brexit on the horizon and a Tory government that treats Scotland with disdain and set for a lengthy looking tenure.

The push for Independence won't go away and certainly the cavalry for the unionist backers will not come in the form of a Westminster government in my opinion.

So you support a one party state?

superflyweight wrote:The EU certainly wouldn't allow an open border between Scotland and England.  

So tell the EU to f**k off then? What would they do? The Mother of all Bombs on Hadrian's Wall?

SecretFly wrote:

superflyweight wrote:The EU certainly wouldn't allow an open border between Scotland and England.  

So tell the EU to f**k off then?  What would they do?  The Mother of all Bombs on Hadrian's Wall?

That's not the option that we're being presented with. The whole basis of independence is based on full membership of the EU whilst retaining our own currency (oi - stop sniggering at the back).

superflyweight wrote:

CaledonianCraig wrote:

superflyweight wrote:The younger generation will get older and the main driving force behind independence, the SNP, will over the next few years suffer the same fate as every other party that spends a lot of time in government - familiarity breeds contempt.  

If a second referendum is held and lost over the next 5 few years then much of the momentum will have been lost and I think you may see support for independence fall back down somewhere around 35%.    

The next UK government can only be more left/centrist than the current one.  A populist more left leaning centrist party would hit the independence movement hard!

Well first up no - as the SNP has now held the reins of power for a decade and polls suggest there is no sign of a decline in their popularity. And lets remember that the option is puppet politicians. As in Tory or Labour MP's who will tow the Westminster party line first and foremost whether it is detriment to Scotland or not. That has been the case for so long now.

Sorry but what you are suggesting is a view based on something that hasn't happened for about three or four decades - a noticable fall in support for independence so why should it happen now with hard Brexit on the horizon and a Tory government that treats Scotland with disdain and set for a lengthy looking tenure.

The push for Independence won't go away and certainly the cavalry for the unionist backers will not come in the form of a Westminster government in my opinion.

So you support a one party state?

At present - yes. Until another party or two can resonate with me. Until Scottish Labour or Scottish Conservative wake up and smell the coffee. That will only happen if independence is acheived as far as I can see. Ken Livingstone hit the nail on the head during Labour's implosion in Scotland in the last election. Even he recognized that Scottish Labour had to cut ties with the Westminster branch and re-invent themselves as a party solely interested in Scottish affairs and show they care about their voters in Scotland. That has not happened as they still think digging their heels in over independence will win them votes - it will not giving that 45% of the electorate back independence. That in effect leaves them with a maximum of 55% of the electorate to be shared out amongst Tories and Lib Dems. In short they need to look at how to appeal to a wider range of voters and by staunchly standing totally against what 45% of voters want then they are alienating themselves.

The SNP lost its majority...........in 2015...

CaledonianCraig wrote:

superflyweight wrote:

CaledonianCraig wrote:

superflyweight wrote:The younger generation will get older and the main driving force behind independence, the SNP, will over the next few years suffer the same fate as every other party that spends a lot of time in government - familiarity breeds contempt.  

If a second referendum is held and lost over the next 5 few years then much of the momentum will have been lost and I think you may see support for independence fall back down somewhere around 35%.    

The next UK government can only be more left/centrist than the current one.  A populist more left leaning centrist party would hit the independence movement hard!

Well first up no - as the SNP has now held the reins of power for a decade and polls suggest there is no sign of a decline in their popularity. And lets remember that the option is puppet politicians. As in Tory or Labour MP's who will tow the Westminster party line first and foremost whether it is detriment to Scotland or not. That has been the case for so long now.

Sorry but what you are suggesting is a view based on something that hasn't happened for about three or four decades - a noticable fall in support for independence so why should it happen now with hard Brexit on the horizon and a Tory government that treats Scotland with disdain and set for a lengthy looking tenure.

The push for Independence won't go away and certainly the cavalry for the unionist backers will not come in the form of a Westminster government in my opinion.

So you support a one party state?

At present - yes. Until another party or two can resonate with me. Until Scottish Labour or Scottish Conservative wake up and smell the coffee. That will only happen if independence is acheived as far as I can see. Ken Livingstone hit the nail on the head during Labour's implosion in Scotland in the last election. Even he recognized that Scottish Labour had to cut ties with the Westminster branch and re-invent themselves as a party solely interested in Scottish affairs and show they care about their voters in Scotland. That has not happened as they still think digging their heels in over independence will win them votes - it will not giving that 45% of the electorate back independence. That in effect leaves them with a maximum of 55% of the electorate to be shared out amongst Tories and Lib Dems. In short they need to look at how to appeal to a wider range of voters and by staunchly standing totally against what 45% of voters want then they are alienating themselves.

F*ck me!!! And they say Scottish nationalism isn't a cult!

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:The SNP lost its majority...........in 2015...

Sorry?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elections_in_Scotland

superflyweight wrote:

F*ck me!!!  And they say Scottish nationalism isn't a cult!

Why not?  Sure all the Fashion houses are doing it these days.  The GOP cult.  The Corbyn Cult.  The Trump Cult.  The Clinton Cult. The EU cult.  The Polls-is-always-right Cult.

CaledonianCraig wrote:

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:The SNP lost its majority...........in 2015...

Sorry?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elections_in_Scotland

63 into 129.................Is less than 50% mate..

SecretFly wrote:

superflyweight wrote:

F*ck me!!!  And they say Scottish nationalism isn't a cult!

Why not?  Sure all the Fashion houses are doing it these days.  The GOP cult.  The Corbyn Cult.  The Trump Cult.  The Clinton Cult.  The EU cult.  The Polls-is-always-right Cult.

You forgot the Tory Cult (yes I said the cuLt).

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:

CaledonianCraig wrote:

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:The SNP lost its majority...........in 2015...

Sorry?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elections_in_Scotland

63 into 129.................Is less than 50% mate..

Try telling that to the Remainer crowd

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:

CaledonianCraig wrote:

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:The SNP lost its majority...........in 2015...

Sorry?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elections_in_Scotland

63 into 129.................Is less than 50% mate..

56 out of 59 seats. More votes gathered than Scottish Labour, Scottish Conservative, LibDems and UKIP combined in Scotland.

CaledonianCraig wrote:

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:

CaledonianCraig wrote:

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:The SNP lost its majority...........in 2015...

Sorry?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elections_in_Scotland

63 into 129.................Is less than 50% mate..

56 out of 59 seats. More votes gathered than Scottish Labour, Scottish Conservative, LibDems and UKIP combined in Scotland.

Talking about Scotland............Scotland will be voting in a Scottish referendum...

The SNP can't carry Scotland.........and that is with Labour in a mess.....But like I said Independence and the SNP aren't mutually exclusive...though fortunes are linked to a certain extent.

Should Independence happen Scottish Labour will lose all the shackles and baggage of Westminster.........

The 1945 precedent in Britain is an example of thanking someone for getting the job done and then saying now you can P**s off...

CaledonianCraig wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

superflyweight wrote:

F*ck me!!!  And they say Scottish nationalism isn't a cult!

Why not?  Sure all the Fashion houses are doing it these days.  The GOP cult.  The Corbyn Cult.  The Trump Cult.  The Clinton Cult.  The EU cult.  The Polls-is-always-right Cult.

You forgot the Tory Cult (yes I said the cuLt).

Nah.  That ain't a Cult, that's a Freemason's Recreational Club.

And the face of the Scottish branch is Scary!!!



So much for the softer sex getting into power and presenting a nicer, cosier vision of what humanity can be!  Everyone of these females who is skirting around the corridors of power in recent years look like they wouldn't hesitate for a second in pressing the Big Red Button if Simon Cowell didn't let the gymnast, fire-breathing opera-singer through to the next round.

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:

CaledonianCraig wrote:

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:

CaledonianCraig wrote:

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:The SNP lost its majority...........in 2015...

Sorry?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elections_in_Scotland

63 into 129.................Is less than 50% mate..

56 out of 59 seats. More votes gathered than Scottish Labour, Scottish Conservative, LibDems and UKIP combined in Scotland.

Talking about Scotland............Scotland will be voting in a Scottish referendum...

The SNP can't carry Scotland.........and that is with Labour in a mess.....But like I said Independence and the SNP aren't mutually exclusive...though fortunes are linked to a certain extent.

Should Independence happen SCottish Labour will lose all the shackles and baggage of Westminster.........

The 1945 precedent in Britain is an example of thanking someone for getting the job done and then saying now you can P**s off...

Independence is the key. For sure if it happens then Scottish Labour and Tories are forced into re-inventing themselves and if they can do that and appeal to enough people then people will vote for them again. In their present guises I just can't see that happening.

In other news, Corbyn seems to be setting his stall out on the Trump anti establishment patch. While other party leaders and probably senior Labour officials keep asking him to consider aligning with other parties to prevent a large vote split vs a pretty United tory vote.

Carswell has stood down and thrown his weight behind the eventual Tory candidate, which is the latest and most obvious sign that it's time for UKIP voters to start shuffling towards the life rafts.

GSC wrote:In other news, Corbyn seems to be setting his stall out on the Trump anti establishment patch. While other party leaders and probably senior Labour officials keep asking him to consider aligning with other parties to prevent a large vote split vs a pretty United tory vote.

Carswell has stood down and thrown his weight behind the eventual Tory candidate, which is the latest and most obvious sign that it's time for UKIP voters to start shuffling towards the life rafts.

Careful. I wouldn't follow Carswell either out of a boat or into a liferaft. That man has Kangaroo syndrome.

GSC wrote:The Scots voted to remain part of the UK.

The UK voted to leave the EU. Every Scottish vote counted the same as every other UK citizen. I don't see the issue.

But that's like saying that from now on every decision that is forced upon the scots by an English majority must be forced upon them because in 2014 Scotland voted to remain part of the UK.

Scotland voted for something very different in 2014 to what is being imposed on them now and it is only fair that the Scottish people get their say on whether they want to still be part of the uk or leave and join the EU.

Musclular-mouse wrote:

GSC wrote:The Scots voted to remain part of the UK.

The UK voted to leave the EU. Every Scottish vote counted the same as every other UK citizen. I don't see the issue.

But that's like saying that from now on every decision that is forced upon the scots by an English majority must be forced upon them because in 2014 Scotland voted to remain part of the UK.

Scotland voted for something very different in 2014 to what is being imposed on them now and it is only fair that the Scottish people get their say on whether they want to still be part of the uk or leave and join the EU.

To an extent - although it's disruptive and counter-productive to demand a referendum every time you disagree with a  course of action.  

What would be helpful in this instance though is if the independence movement would present an honest and coherent position on what a post-Independent Scotland would look like.  

It shouldn't be difficult to give a proper indication of the following key points - membership of EU - yes or no?  If yes - on what terms - how long will we have wait for membership - will we have to adopt the Euro - will we have to fall in line with EU public spending requirements (and thus apply further austerity measures) - how do we compensate for the loss of an open trading relationship with the largest consumer of our outputs (RUK)?  

Above all - on day 1 of independence we have a significant deficit - what steps will we take to address that deficit.  If that involves increased taxation and/or increased austerity measures then make that clear.

Without anything like sensible answers to the above, I won't even consider independence as a viable option.

Musclular-mouse wrote:

GSC wrote:The Scots voted to remain part of the UK.

The UK voted to leave the EU. Every Scottish vote counted the same as every other UK citizen. I don't see the issue.

But that's like saying that from now on every decision that is forced upon the scots by an English majority must be forced upon them because in 2014 Scotland voted to remain part of the UK.

Scotland voted for something very different in 2014 to what is being imposed on them now and it is only fair that the Scottish people get their say on whether they want to still be part of the uk or leave and join the EU.

Ermm yeah it does mean they have to abide by the decisions made by Westminister, that's what they voted for. (although as has been ediscussed everything was spun into something different so there is a minor point there)

CaledonianCraig wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

superflyweight wrote:

F*ck me!!!  And they say Scottish nationalism isn't a cult!

Why not?  Sure all the Fashion houses are doing it these days.  The GOP cult.  The Corbyn Cult.  The Trump Cult.  The Clinton Cult.  The EU cult.  The Polls-is-always-right Cult.

You forgot the Tory Cult (yes I said the cuLt).

Independence is an emotive subject......Never do anything that can have lasting implications on emotion........

Remember a few years ago having an argument with my beloved before going to work and her sending me an expletive rant on what a B**tard I was.....Only she sent it to her Dad by mistake.......

Would have been amusing had I not received a phone call minutes later off him expressing deep concern for my physical well being.......

Never do anything on emotion...........Think jobs, economy, standard of living, future generations....

Stop watching Mel Gibson's braveheart....

superflyweight wrote:  

It shouldn't be difficult to give a proper indication of the following key points

 I'll try!

- membership of EU - yes or no?

yes

 If yes - on what terms -

on majority opinion EU terms

how long will we have wait for membership

you really think the EU would make Scotland wait a long time given the wonderful propaganda aspect to a past region of the UK begging to be let straight back in to the Club?  It would be as quick as the EU mandarins could make it!

- will we have to adopt the Euro

 YES! - No other EU nation will be allowed pull the UKs selection box trick on EU membership

will we have to fall in line with EU public spending requirements (and thus apply further austerity measures)

yes.  You are only a small fish.  Small fish obey orders in the EU or pay the fines.  

- how do we compensate for the loss of an open trading relationship with the largest consumer of our outputs (RUK)?

 You compensate by adapting to the new conditions.  Something different won't be the same.

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:

Independence is an emotive subject.....

Never do anything on emotion...........Think jobs, economy, standard of living, future generations....

America gained Independence and look where it got them. More democracy.... and they became the Mother of all Bombs Master Race with an Orange Alien for President. Don't knock emotion - it drives evolution.

And if a union is not working it is time to divorce and move on and that is the juncture we have reached here.

Scots are being governed from Westminster by parties with a handful of seats in Scotland - that has been the case now for a decade and counting. Well it will be a lot longer soon as the Tories will win the next election but have only a handful of seats in Scotland.

Scottish views on politics is far removed from that of the rest of the UK now, a big proportion of its population want independence and abhor Tory policies. Those are the grounds for divorce and people want a government that can decide for itself on crucial matters on Europe and such-like and at present that is certainly not the case. The options open are carry on in discontentment in a union that a growing body of people don't want or seek independence and be able to run Scotland with Scotland's interests first and foremost in mind.

CaledonianCraig wrote:And if a union is not working it is time to divorce and move on and that is the juncture we have reached here.

Scots are being governed from Westminster by parties with a handful of seats in Scotland - that has been the case now for a decade and counting. Well it will be a lot longer soon as the Tories will win the next election but have only a handful of seats in Scotland.

Scottish views on politics is far removed from that of the rest of the UK now, a big proportion of its population want independence and abhor Tory policies. Those are the grounds for divorce and people want a government that can decide for itself on crucial matters on Europe and such-like and at present that is certainly not the case. The options open are carry on in discontentment in a union that a growing body of people don't want or seek independence and be able to run Scotland with Scotland's interests first and foremost in mind.

But still a significant minority.

as Fly says, you lost the vote for independance, therefore the minority view it as needing a change

superflyweight wrote:

CaledonianCraig wrote:And if a union is not working it is time to divorce and move on and that is the juncture we have reached here.

Scots are being governed from Westminster by parties with a handful of seats in Scotland - that has been the case now for a decade and counting. Well it will be a lot longer soon as the Tories will win the next election but have only a handful of seats in Scotland.

Scottish views on politics is far removed from that of the rest of the UK now, a big proportion of its population want independence and abhor Tory policies. Those are the grounds for divorce and people want a government that can decide for itself on crucial matters on Europe and such-like and at present that is certainly not the case. The options open are carry on in discontentment in a union that a growing body of people don't want or seek independence and be able to run Scotland with Scotland's interests first and foremost in mind.

But still a significant minority.  

A minority containing well over a million people. If you look at staunch voters you probably have a fixed set of 40% who will vote yes come what may and probably around 40% who will vote no come what may with around 20% of the electorate either undecided or unsure of how they will vote. And yes it is still a growing body of people supporting independence. The converts to those backing independence compared to the converts to those backing unionism is stark. It is why the SNP is the most popular party in Scotland at present. It is up to Labour and Tories to do something about that but they don't know how though the answer is staring them in the face.

CaledonianCraig wrote:

superflyweight wrote:

CaledonianCraig wrote:And if a union is not working it is time to divorce and move on and that is the juncture we have reached here.

Scots are being governed from Westminster by parties with a handful of seats in Scotland - that has been the case now for a decade and counting. Well it will be a lot longer soon as the Tories will win the next election but have only a handful of seats in Scotland.

Scottish views on politics is far removed from that of the rest of the UK now, a big proportion of its population want independence and abhor Tory policies. Those are the grounds for divorce and people want a government that can decide for itself on crucial matters on Europe and such-like and at present that is certainly not the case. The options open are carry on in discontentment in a union that a growing body of people don't want or seek independence and be able to run Scotland with Scotland's interests first and foremost in mind.

But still a significant minority.  

A minority containing well over a million people. If you look at staunch voters you probably have a fixed set of 40% who will vote yes come what may and probably around 40% who will vote no come what may with around 20% of the electorate either undecided or unsure of how they will vote. And yes it is still a growing body of people supporting independence. The converts to those backing independence compared to the converts to those backing unionism is stark. It is why the SNP is the most popular party in Scotland at present. It is up to Labour and Tories to do something about that but they don't know how though the answer is staring them in the face.

WST poll....How would you vote in a Scottish referendum ???....

Jun 2016 ....................Yes 47%......................No 41%

Sept 2016....................Yes 42%.....................No 48%

Mar 2017 (latest)..........Yes 37%.....................No 48%...................


Doesn't quite back up your argument really does it ??

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:

CaledonianCraig wrote:

superflyweight wrote:

CaledonianCraig wrote:And if a union is not working it is time to divorce and move on and that is the juncture we have reached here.

Scots are being governed from Westminster by parties with a handful of seats in Scotland - that has been the case now for a decade and counting. Well it will be a lot longer soon as the Tories will win the next election but have only a handful of seats in Scotland.

Scottish views on politics is far removed from that of the rest of the UK now, a big proportion of its population want independence and abhor Tory policies. Those are the grounds for divorce and people want a government that can decide for itself on crucial matters on Europe and such-like and at present that is certainly not the case. The options open are carry on in discontentment in a union that a growing body of people don't want or seek independence and be able to run Scotland with Scotland's interests first and foremost in mind.

But still a significant minority.  

A minority containing well over a million people. If you look at staunch voters you probably have a fixed set of 40% who will vote yes come what may and probably around 40% who will vote no come what may with around 20% of the electorate either undecided or unsure of how they will vote. And yes it is still a growing body of people supporting independence. The converts to those backing independence compared to the converts to those backing unionism is stark. It is why the SNP is the most popular party in Scotland at present. It is up to Labour and Tories to do something about that but they don't know how though the answer is staring them in the face.

WST poll....How would you vote in a Scottish referendum ???....

Jun 2016 ....................Yes 47%......................No 41%

Sept 2016....................Yes 42%.....................No 48%

Mar 2017 (latest)..........Yes 37%.....................No 48%...................


Doesn't quite back up your argument really does it ??

All selective as I see you leave out 6th of March poll with Yes 47% No 46%.

More than 2 million people voted No.  That means that the numbers voting No exceed the numbers voting Yes by around 20-25%.  That's a massive difference in a country of around 5 million people.

As Truss helpfully points out, the figures show that the support for independence is falling. At best, it has stagnated.

superflyweight wrote:More than 2 million people voted No.  That means that the numbers voting No exceed the numbers voting Yes by around 20-25%.  That's a massive difference in a country of around 5 million people.

As Truss helpfully points out, the figures show that the support for independence is falling.  At best, it has stagnated.  

And as I pointed out depends what polls Truss wants to trumpet as poll on 6th of March had 47% yes and 46% no so take your pick. And as I said you have staunch yes voters sat on 40% of the electorate - that is not a whisper but a strong voice speaking out against the union. And you'd have around 40% staunch no voters. The remaining 20% are floaters/undecided/waiverers call them what you will - voters in the middle ground. The majority of them last time were won over on issues such as Europe which is not a bargaining chip this time around. In essence the 2 million no voters were by no means all die hard unionists who will vote the same way again especially if their vote was bought on the European issue. The 1.6 million who voted yes I'd say are far more a set in stone figure - sure not all of them guaranteed yes voters but far less of them likely to do a complete u-turn.

superflyweight wrote:More than 2 million people voted No.  That means that the numbers voting No exceed the numbers voting Yes by around 20-25%.  That's a massive difference in a country of around 5 million people.

As Truss helpfully points out, the figures show that the support for independence is falling.  At best, it has stagnated.  

Why do percentages when you can do real numbers?  After all, you alluded to a real number in the No vote.

So that's:

'NO' = 2,001,926
'YES' = 1,617,989

Correct?

A difference of 383,973.

Massive difference?  In a referendum where 3.5 million voted and had an 84% turn out (about 600,000 stayed at home), 384,000 is huntable.  Which selection of voters chooses to stay home in any given election/referendum? Well there is the football game.

The Brexit result changes things in both camps as well. I've heard staunch yes voters saying they'd abstain from voting next time around on the grounds that they are happy out of Europe. Conversely, there are also voters who voted no last time who have now said they'd vote yes as they wish to remain in Europe. And considering the prospect of a Hard Brexit that number will swell I'd say.

Yeah but as has been said, you can't keep having a vote when something happens that you don't like. If it weren't for the fact it was a murky debate (by both sides equally) i'd would be saying you have to lump it.

You were outvoted at the time, and at this moment that's all that matters. bit like Brexit, doesn't matter what you'd do now, it's what happened then that matters

CaledonianCraig wrote:

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:

CaledonianCraig wrote:

superflyweight wrote:

CaledonianCraig wrote:And if a union is not working it is time to divorce and move on and that is the juncture we have reached here.

Scots are being governed from Westminster by parties with a handful of seats in Scotland - that has been the case now for a decade and counting. Well it will be a lot longer soon as the Tories will win the next election but have only a handful of seats in Scotland.

Scottish views on politics is far removed from that of the rest of the UK now, a big proportion of its population want independence and abhor Tory policies. Those are the grounds for divorce and people want a government that can decide for itself on crucial matters on Europe and such-like and at present that is certainly not the case. The options open are carry on in discontentment in a union that a growing body of people don't want or seek independence and be able to run Scotland with Scotland's interests first and foremost in mind.

But still a significant minority.  

A minority containing well over a million people. If you look at staunch voters you probably have a fixed set of 40% who will vote yes come what may and probably around 40% who will vote no come what may with around 20% of the electorate either undecided or unsure of how they will vote. And yes it is still a growing body of people supporting independence. The converts to those backing independence compared to the converts to those backing unionism is stark. It is why the SNP is the most popular party in Scotland at present. It is up to Labour and Tories to do something about that but they don't know how though the answer is staring them in the face.

WST poll....How would you vote in a Scottish referendum ???....

Jun 2016 ....................Yes 47%......................No 41%

Sept 2016....................Yes 42%.....................No 48%

Mar 2017 (latest)..........Yes 37%.....................No 48%...................


Doesn't quite back up your argument really does it ??

All selective as I see you leave out 6th of March poll with Yes 47% No 46%.

One poll...

..WST gives you a trend of 12 months...and it is downwards.

But you aren't interested in facts are you ?..It's like debating a Corbyn supporter.