Progression from U20s to Full Cap

Looking purely at England, but anyone welcome to do the same for their country or discuss how they feel.

2016
None capped (Marchant and Mallinder in Argentina tour party)


2015
Ellis Genge, 1 cap (2016)
Paul Hill, 5 caps (2016-17)
Charlie Ewels, 3 caps (2016)


2014
Charlie Ewels & Paul Hill (see above)
Maro Itoje, 12 caps (2016-17), Lions tourist (2017)
Ross Moriarty, 17 caps (2015-17, Wales), Lions Tourist (2017)


2013
Ross Moriarty (see above)
Jack Clifford, 10 caps (2016-17)
Luke Cowan-Dickie, 4 caps (2015-16)
Ollie Devoto, 1 cap (2016)
Jack Nowell, 23 caps (2014-17), Lions Tourist (2017)
Henry Slade, 4 caps (2015-17)
Anthony Watson, 26 caps (2014-17), Lions tourist (2017)


2012
Luke Cowan-Dickie, Jack Clifford & Jack Nowell, see above
Kyle Sinckler, 8 caps (2016-17), Lions tourist (2017)
Matt Kvesic, 3 caps (2013-15)
Billy Vunipola, 34 caps (2013-17), Lions tourist (2017)
Tom Heathcote, 3 caps (2012-13, Scotland)
George Ford, 35 caps (2014-17)
Elliot Daly, 13 caps (2016-17), Lions Tourist (2017)
Marland Yarde, 11 caps (2013-16)


2011
Matt Kvesic, George Ford, Elliot Daly & Marland Yarde, see above
Mako Vunipola, 42 Caps +3 B&I  (2012-17), Lions tourist (2013 & 2017)
Joe Launchbury, 42 Caps (2012-17)
Owen Farrell, 52 Caps + 1 B&I (2012-17), Lions Tourist (2013 & 17)
Jonathan Joseph, 33 Caps (2012-17), Lions Tourist (2017)
Christian Wade, 1 cap (2013), Lions tourist (2013)
*Manu eligible, but was left with Leicester and Saxons during 6Ns

NZ had a hell of a team in 2011. Overall it looks like props are emerging older rather than in U20s

2016
-Jordie Barrett went on the EOY tour as an "apprentice"

2015
Anton Lienert-Brown 9 caps (2016)
Akira Ioane - NZ7s
EDIT: Ardie Savea 12 caps (2016), NZ 7s

2014
Anton Lienert-Brown (see above)
Damian McKenzie  2 caps (2016)

2013
Scott Barrett 4 caps(2016)
Patrick Tuipulotu 12 caps (2014-16)
Ofa Tu'ungafasi 3 Caps (2016)

2012
Nathan Harris 4 caps (2014-16)
TJ Perenara  and Sam Cane missed JRWC selection due to Super Rugby commitments

2011
Dominic Bird 2 caps (2013)
Sam Cane 40 caps (2012-on)
Steven Luatua 15 caps (2013-on)
Brodie Rettalick 60 caps (2012-on), World Player of the Year 2014
Luke Whitelock 1 cap (2013)
Codie Taylor 15 caps (2015-)
Jeff Toomaga-Allen 1 cap (2013)
Gareth Anscombe 9 Welsh caps (2015-)
Beauden Barrett 49 caps (2012-), NZ 7s
Waisake Naholo 12 caps (2015-), NZ 7s
TJ Perenara 29 caps (2012-)
Charles Piutau 16 caps (2013-15), NZ 7s
Francis Saili 2 caps (2013)
Lima Sopoaga 6 caps (2015-)
Brad Weber 1 cap (2015)

2010
Luke Whitelock (see above)
Tawera Kerr-Barlow 25 caps (2012-)
Charlie Ngatai 1 cap (2015)
Julian Savea 52 caps (2012-), NZ 7s
Telusa Veainu 9 Tongan caps (2015-)

From the Class of 2014, Nathan Earle has his first squad call-up this summer. Nick Tompkins and James Chisolm (both 2014 and 2015) have also featured in discussions of future test caps.

23 players (21 England caps, 1 Scotland and 1 Wales). I've tried to make a 23, but came across a couple of issues.

There are a lot of backs in there, and maybe a few more of the forwards from these age groups will force their way through in the current years.

We're also missing a 9 (I've cheated by using Maunder, who will be capped this summer, and would have played Under 20s rugby in the Six Nations, were it not for injury).

But my team is:

Vunipola, Cowan-Dickie, Sinckler, Launchbury, Itoje, Clifford, Kvesic, Vunipola.
(Maunder), Ford, Nowell, Farrell, Joseph, Daly, Watson.
Genge, (...), Hill, Ewels, (Moriarty), (...), Slade, Wade.

Left-out: Heathcote, Devoto, Yarde.

Moriarty has to settle for the bench, because he doesn't actually play for us.

But that was the best I could do, and it's not a million miles from our first choice team.

Picking a 23 for NZ is hard, few props!  There are a few props who've made it to Super Rugby - Big Ben Tamefuina, Atu Moli etc

Tu'ungafasi, Taylor, Toomaga-Allen, Retallick, S Barrett, Luatua, Cane, A Savea L Whitelock
Perenara, B Barrett, J Savea, Ngatai, ALB, Naholo, Piutau
Harris, ?, ?, Tuipolotu, L WhitelockA Ioane, TKB, Sopoaiga, J Barrett/D McKenzie

So aside from Itoje, there's few that make the jump quickly at all.

Now is that because clubs hold youngsters back from playing or just that England don't fast track them (Eddie Jones excepted) ..or just that Itoje is a freak?

Pete C (Kiwireddevil) wrote:Picking a 23 for NZ is hard, few props!  There are a few props who've made it to Super Rugby - Big Ben Tamefuina, Atu Moli etc

Tu'ungafasi, Taylor, Toomaga-Allen, Retallick, S Barrett, Luatua, Cane, L Whitelock
Perenara, B Barrett, J Savea, Ngatai, ALB, Naholo, Piutau
Harris, ?, ?, Tuipolotu, A Ioane, TKB, Sopoaiga, J Barrett/D McKenzie

Some very good talent coming through from the NZ, surprised they haven't had more (recent) success than they have had, with only one tournament win since that 2011 team.

They've lost 7 out of 25 games in those 5 tournaments, a win rate of 72%. Impressive, but below the standard the senior team sets.

Still, you guys don't seem to have many problems bringing the best players through into the team.

GeordieFalcon wrote:So aside from Itoje,  there's few that make the jump quickly at all.

Now is that because clubs hold youngsters back from playing or just that England don't fast track them (Eddie Jones excepted) ..or just that Itoje is a freak?

I woulodn't say that's particularly true of Itoje more than others. From playing in the 2014 tournament, he didn't feature for England until 2016, but immediately established himelf. Maybe if there had been a summer tour and autumn internationals in 2015 rather than the World Cup, Itoje would have got a shot earlier.

Picking a couple from earlier years with a lot of caps:

Anthony Watson got called into the Autumn Internationals 2013, Six Nations 2014 and Summer Tour 2014 squad, playing the Crusaders. He then made his debut in Autumn 2014, one series earlier than Itoje did, and was quickly established.

Billy Vunipola got called into the Six Nations 2013 squad and made his debut vs Argentina that summer, just a year after graduating the Under-20s, and 2 series earlier than Itoje did. He also established himself quickly.

Like I said, there's a chance that Itoje would have played in 2015 had it been a regular year, and an argument that he perhaps should have played in the World Cup anyway. But in terms of players breaking in and establishing, I think it's just a case of true quality firstly getting the opportunity and secondly taking it, and I think Itoje, Watson and Vunipola all fall into that category, and have similar-ish pathways, although they're at different stages through.

robbo277 wrote:

Pete C (Kiwireddevil) wrote:Picking a 23 for NZ is hard, few props!  There are a few props who've made it to Super Rugby - Big Ben Tamefuina, Atu Moli etc

Tu'ungafasi, Taylor, Toomaga-Allen, Retallick, S Barrett, Luatua, Cane, L Whitelock
Perenara, B Barrett, J Savea, Ngatai, ALB, Naholo, Piutau
Harris, ?, ?, Tuipolotu, A Ioane, TKB, Sopoaiga, J Barrett/D McKenzie

Some very good talent coming through from the NZ, surprised they haven't had more (recent) success than they have had, with only one tournament win since that 2011 team.

They've lost 7 out of 25 games in those 5 tournaments, a win rate of 72%. Impressive, but below the standard the senior team sets.

Still, you guys don't seem to have many problems bringing the best players through into the team.

Yeah the path through is working OK - a lot of the names on the team lists when I was searching through yesterday have made it into Super Rugby. I think the JRWC has seen other nations taking it a lot more seriously in recent years which has seen the levels of competition even up a bit. The JRWC rules forcing you to rest players and field your whole squad in the tournament means there's always scope for a mismatch if one side rests its stars too.

Is this being done on when they first burst on the scene or the year they finished in the u20s?

Amazingly Zander Fagerson (TH) played last year's u20's World's after being capped. That side has about 6-8 other players who will likely be capped with Scott Cummings and Blair Kinghorn most likely for this summer

This may be more down to Scotland having less depth than England or New Zealand.

Hazel Sapling wrote:Is this being done on when they first burst on the scene or the year they finished in the u20s?

I went through the U20 squads by year, so some players appear twice though earlier U20 appearances are just a summary line. Some guys did not play U20s in their final year, Manu did not play U20s at all.

In general the better players are in the England team within 2 years of leaving the U20s. In rare occasions we have guys making their full debut the season immediately after their U20s. It is rare for players to appear for England when still qualified for U20s (Maunder will do it this summer - though interestingly not sure he has actually played for the U20s)

Pete C (Kiwireddevil) wrote:NZ had a hell of a team in 2011. Overall it looks like props are emerging older rather than in U20s

2016
-Jordie Barrett went on the EOY tour as an "apprentice"

2015
Anton Lienert-Brown 9 caps (2016)
Akira Ioane - NZ7s

2014
Anton Lienert-Brown (see above)
Damian McKenzie  2 caps (2016)

2013
Scott Barrett 4 caps(2016)
Patrick Tuipulotu 12 caps (2014-16)
Ofa Tu'ungafasi 3 Caps (2016)

2012
Nathan Harris 4 caps (2014-16)
TJ Perenara  and Sam Cane missed JRWC selection due to Super Rugby commitments

2011
Dominic Bird 2 caps (2013)
Sam Cane 40 caps (2012-on)
Steven Luatua 15 caps (2013-on)
Brodie Rettalick 60 caps (2012-on), World Player of the Year 2014
Luke Whitelock 1 cap (2013)
Codie Taylor 15 caps (2015-)
Jeff Toomaga-Allen 1 cap (2013)
Gareth Anscombe 9 Welsh caps (2015-)
Beauden Barrett 49 caps (2012-), NZ 7s
Waisake Naholo 12 caps (2015-), NZ 7s
TJ Perenara 29 caps (2012-)
Charles Piutau 16 caps (2013-15), NZ 7s
Francis Saili 2 caps (2013)
Lima Sopoaga 6 caps (2015-)
Brad Weber 1 cap (2015)

2010
Luke Whitelock (see above)
Tawera Kerr-Barlow 25 caps (2012-)
Charlie Ngatai 1 cap (2015)
Julian Savea 52 caps (2012-), NZ 7s

Did Ardie Savea not go through the age grade ranks?

Ireland, that list will hopefully see more names added over the summer. About half the list played multiple years too
2016
None, hopefully Stockdale and Byrne will get some game time this summer

2015
Joey Carberry-3 Caps

2015
Garry Ringrose-8 Caps

2013
Dan Leavy-2 Caps
Jack O'Donoghue-1 Cap

2012
Luke McGrath-2 Caps
Kieran Marmion-13 Caps
Niall Scannell-4 Caps
Tahdg Furlong-16 Caps
Iain Henderson-32 Caps
Jack Conan-1 Cap
Stuart Olding-4 Caps
Josh van Der Flier-7 Caps

marty2086 wrote:Ireland, that list will hopefully see more names added over the summer. About half the list played multiple years too
2016
None, hopefully Stockdale and Byrne will get some game time this summer

2015
Joey Carberry-3 Caps

2015
Garry Ringrose-8 Caps

2013
Dan Leavy-2 Caps
Jack O'Donoghue-1 Cap

2012
Luke McGrath-2 Caps
Kieran Marmion-13 Caps
Niall Scannell-4 Caps
Tahdg Furlong-16 Caps
Iain Henderson-32 Caps
Jack Conan-1 Cap
Stuart Olding-4 Caps
Josh van Der Flier-7 Caps

List of JWC squads, Marty. I updated it last summer.
https://www.606v2.com/t8079-4-years-of-ireland-at-under-20-rugby-at-jrwc

From that list ( i might have overlooked some capped players).
2008
Stephen Archer


2009
Matt Healy
Dave Kearney
Ian Madigan
Jack McGrath
Peter O'Mahony


2010
Noel Reid
Rhys Ruddock
Dominic Ryan
Simon Zebo


2011
Findlay Bealham
Andrew Conway
Craig Gilroy
Luke Marshall
Jordi Murphy
Tiernan O'Halloran
James Tracy


2012
Jack Conan
Tadhg Furlong
Iain Henderson
Paddy Jackson
Kieran Marmion
Stuart Olding
Niall Scannell


2013
Dan Leavy
Luke McGrath
Josh Van Der Flier


2014
Jack O'Donoghue


2015
Garry Ringrose
Joey Carbery


2016
-

propdavid_london wrote:

Pete C (Kiwireddevil) wrote:NZ had a hell of a team in 2011. Overall it looks like props are emerging older rather than in U20s

2016
-Jordie Barrett went on the EOY tour as an "apprentice"

2015
Anton Lienert-Brown 9 caps (2016)
Akira Ioane - NZ7s

2014
Anton Lienert-Brown (see above)
Damian McKenzie  2 caps (2016)

2013
Scott Barrett 4 caps(2016)
Patrick Tuipulotu 12 caps (2014-16)
Ofa Tu'ungafasi 3 Caps (2016)

2012
Nathan Harris 4 caps (2014-16)
TJ Perenara  and Sam Cane missed JRWC selection due to Super Rugby commitments

2011
Dominic Bird 2 caps (2013)
Sam Cane 40 caps (2012-on)
Steven Luatua 15 caps (2013-on)
Brodie Rettalick 60 caps (2012-on), World Player of the Year 2014
Luke Whitelock 1 cap (2013)
Codie Taylor 15 caps (2015-)
Jeff Toomaga-Allen 1 cap (2013)
Gareth Anscombe 9 Welsh caps (2015-)
Beauden Barrett 49 caps (2012-), NZ 7s
Waisake Naholo 12 caps (2015-), NZ 7s
TJ Perenara 29 caps (2012-)
Charles Piutau 16 caps (2013-15), NZ 7s
Francis Saili 2 caps (2013)
Lima Sopoaga 6 caps (2015-)
Brad Weber 1 cap (2015)

2010
Luke Whitelock (see above)
Tawera Kerr-Barlow 25 caps (2012-)
Charlie Ngatai 1 cap (2015)
Julian Savea 52 caps (2012-), NZ 7s

Did Ardie Savea not go through the age grade ranks?

Error on my part, he was 2013

Jackson ended up not playing in 2012 prof, couldn't remember if he was named in the initial squad or not but he was given the summer off to prepare him for the season ahead as he was taken the 10 shirt the following season for Ulster

marty2086 wrote:Jackson ended up not playing in 2012 prof, couldn't remember if he was named in the initial squad or not but he was given the summer off to prepare him for the season ahead as he was taken the 10 shirt the following season for Ulster

Yeah he was pulled out of it. I remember JJ Hanrahan took over from him. Think Jackson played in the 6 nations. Henshaw was another who was pulled from playing in it.


I think there could be 9 or 10 capped eventually from the 2016 squad.
From the 2015 group, I'd say 3 to 5 (not including Porter who was U19 then).
From 2014 group, I'd say about 3 to 5 also (not including U19 Ringrose).
From 2013, about 7. They pushed the baby blacks close. I remember Adam Byrne being hauled off before half time because the baby blacks scored about 3 tries down his wing.

Pete C (Kiwireddevil) wrote:

Error on my part, he was 2013

You've left out 2009 and I believe that was the first year the format changed to U20 from U21? I could be wrong. I do remember that Baby Blacks team though, and it produced a few ABs (and one Scot).

I think that 2008 was the first U20 JWC:

http://www.wru.co.uk/eng/news/15766.php#.WQMWZ_nyuUk

Yes I was actually thinking of 2008 given that particular Baby Blacks team I had in mind. There are a few internationals from the England and Wales U20 teams of that year too. Can't be bothered to list them though.

2009 - Capped NZ: Aaron Cruden, Elliot Dixon, Zac Guildford, Tom Taylor,
Capped Samoa: Ken Pisi
Capped Tonga: Nafi Tuitavake

2008 - Capped NZ: Ryan Crotty, Sam Whitelock, Matt Todd, Ben Afeaki, Aaron Smith,
Capped NZ Sevens: Kurt Baker
Capped Ireland: Rodney Ah You
Capped Scotland: Sean Maitland, John Hardie
Capped Tonga: Suliasi Taufalele, Tevita Koloamatangi, Paea Fa’anunu
Capped Australia: Michael Harris


The 2008 & 2011 teams playing each other would've have been worth a watch

Pete C (Kiwireddevil) wrote:2009 - Capped NZ: Aaron Cruden, Elliot Dixon, Zac Guildford, Tom Taylor,
Capped Samoa: Ken Pisi
Capped Tonga: Nafi Tuitavake

2008 - Capped NZ: Ryan Crotty, Sam Whitelock, Matt Todd, Ben Afeaki, Aaron Smith,
Capped NZ Sevens: Kurt Baker
Capped Ireland: Rodney Ah You
Capped Scotland: Sean Maitland, John Hardie
Capped Tonga: Suliasi Taufalele, Tevita Koloamatangi, Paea Fa’anunu
Capped Australia: Michael Harris


The 2008 & 2011 teams playing each other would've have been worth a watch

Out of interest, are the rumours that, in New Zealand, you judge the strength of an u20 team by how many players eventually make the full Scotland team true?

123456789 wrote:

Pete C (Kiwireddevil) wrote:2009 - Capped NZ: Aaron Cruden, Elliot Dixon, Zac Guildford, Tom Taylor,
Capped Samoa: Ken Pisi
Capped Tonga: Nafi Tuitavake

2008 - Capped NZ: Ryan Crotty, Sam Whitelock, Matt Todd, Ben Afeaki, Aaron Smith,
Capped NZ Sevens: Kurt Baker
Capped Ireland: Rodney Ah You
Capped Scotland: Sean Maitland, John Hardie
Capped Tonga: Suliasi Taufalele, Tevita Koloamatangi, Paea Fa’anunu
Capped Australia: Michael Harris


The 2008 & 2011 teams playing each other would've have been worth a watch

Out of interest, are the rumours that, in New Zealand, you judge the strength of an u20 team by how many players eventually make the full Scotland team?

I did a topic like this a few years ago.  Wales and Ireland do really well with progression from their U20's as nearly all the players get the chance of a professional career.  I noted that few Scottish players were ever given the chance as they had fewer professional teams.  I found it interesting to look at wiki pages at previous U20 world cups.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_IRB_Junior_World_Championship

Look at the above for example.  As a result of having 4 professional teams nearly all the Welsh and Irish lads had the chance of a professional career.  Then look at the Scottish players, you'll note their names are red.  I.e. they never had the chance of a professional career, hence never had the chance to make a name for themselves.  This has been damaging for Scottish rugby, because they only have half the professional teams of Wales and Ireland, hence half the oppertunities.
France have similar, issue due to the money their clubs have, many players never get the chance to play top flight rugby, hence never develop.

Shifty wrote:I did a topic like this a few years ago.  Wales and Ireland do really well with progression from their U20's as nearly all the players get the chance of a professional career.  I noted that few Scottish players were ever given the chance as they had fewer professional teams.  I found it interesting to look at wiki pages at previous U20 world cups.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_IRB_Junior_World_Championship

Look at the above for example.  As a result of having 4 professional teams nearly all the Welsh and Irish lads had the chance of a professional career.  Then look at the Scottish players, you'll note their names are red.  I.e. they never had the chance of a professional career, hence never had the chance to make a name for themselves.  This has been damaging for Scottish rugby, because they only have half the professional teams of Wales and Ireland, hence half the oppertunities.
France have similar, issue due to the money their clubs have, many players never get the chance to play top flight rugby, hence never develop.

To be honest, Shifty, if they can't break into the Edinburgh squad having another 2 teams won't do much to help. Even with the Irish U20s many players are deemed not good enough and can't make any of the 4 academies. Of last years squad who got to the final, 8 or 9 were not picked up by any of the provinces.

profitius wrote:
To be honest, Shifty, if they can't break into the Edinburgh squad having another 2 teams won't do much to help. Even with the Irish U20s many players are deemed not good enough and can't make any of the 4 academies. Of last years squad who got to the final, 8 or 9 were not picked up by any of the provinces.

They can always follow the example of Mike Ross and take the English shilling until someone notices them...

Wales U20 Squad for the IRB Junior World Championship: Wales 2008

Backs: Rhys Webb (Ospreys), Gareth Williams (Ospreys), Dan Biggar (Ospreys), Gareth Owen (Ospreys), Jonathan Davies (Scarlets), Rhys Williams (Scarlets), Luke Ford (Blues), Jimmy Norris (Dragons), Nathan Rees (Blues), Leigh Halfpenny (Blues), Daniel Evans (Scarlets), Jason Tovey (Dragons)

Forwards: Sam Hobbs (Blues), Ryan Bevington (Ospreys), Scott Andrews (Blues), Patrick Palmer (Blues), Ryan Prosser (Bristol), Rhys Lawrence (Ospreys), Jevon Groves (Blues), Haydn Pugh (Scarlets), Ashley Sweet (Dragons), Justin Tipuric (Ospreys), Lloyd Phillips (Scarlets), Josh Turnbull (Scarlets), Sam Warburton (capt, Blues), Dan Franks (Blues)

Wales capped: Rhys Webb, Dan Biggar, Jonathan Davies, Leigh Halfpenny, Dan Evans, Ryan Bevington, Scott Andrews, Justin Tipuric, Josh Turnbull, Sam Warburton.

Wales Sevens: Gareth Owen, Jimmy Norris, Jason Tovey, Jevon Groves, Haydn Pugh.

I may have missed a few for the sevens? That was a good return on these U20s.

Pete C (Kiwireddevil) wrote:2009 - Capped NZ: Aaron Cruden, Elliot Dixon, Zac Guildford, Tom Taylor,
Capped Samoa: Ken Pisi
Capped Tonga: Nafi Tuitavake

2008 - Capped NZ: Ryan Crotty, Sam Whitelock, Matt Todd, Ben Afeaki, Aaron Smith,
Capped NZ Sevens: Kurt Baker
Capped Ireland: Rodney Ah You
Capped Scotland: Sean Maitland, John Hardie
Capped Tonga: Suliasi Taufalele, Tevita Koloamatangi, Paea Fa’anunu
Capped Australia: Michael Harris


The 2008 & 2011 teams playing each other would've have been worth a watch

I had a feeling 2008 would be the best represented. I had no idea some of those guys went back to their islands!

mikey_dragon wrote:

Pete C (Kiwireddevil) wrote:2009 - Capped NZ: Aaron Cruden, Elliot Dixon, Zac Guildford, Tom Taylor,
Capped Samoa: Ken Pisi
Capped Tonga: Nafi Tuitavake

2008 - Capped NZ: Ryan Crotty, Sam Whitelock, Matt Todd, Ben Afeaki, Aaron Smith,
Capped NZ Sevens: Kurt Baker
Capped Ireland: Rodney Ah You
Capped Scotland: Sean Maitland, John Hardie
Capped Tonga: Suliasi Taufalele, Tevita Koloamatangi, Paea Fa’anunu
Capped Australia: Michael Harris


The 2008 & 2011 teams playing each other would've have been worth a watch

I had a feeling 2008 would be the best represented. I had no idea some of those guys went back to their islands!

Quite a few Islands in that list

What year did Telusa Veainu play for NZ U20s?

Jordie Barrett has been left out of the NZ U20s for the JRWC17 - so he'll be around to face the Lions. Stephen Perofeta (Blues) and Peter Umaga-Jensen (Hurricanes) are the other 2 eligible players with Super Rugby contracts, though both are currently injured - Umaga-Jensen's brother Thomas has made the squad)

http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/international/92367256/jordie-barrett-not-included-in-new-zealand-under20s-for-rugby-world-championship

LondonTiger wrote:What year did Telusa Veainu play for NZ U20s?

2010 - looks like I missed spotting his name the other week

Pete C (Kiwireddevil) wrote:Jordie Barrett has been left out of the NZ U20s for the JRWC17 - so he'll be around to face the Lions. Stephen Perofeta (Blues) and Peter Umaga-Jensen (Hurricanes) are the other 2 eligible players with Super Rugby contracts, though both are currently injured - Umaga-Jensen's brother Thomas has made the squad)

http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/international/92367256/jordie-barrett-not-included-in-new-zealand-under20s-for-rugby-world-championship

So Thomas Umaga-Jensen could play against cousin Jacob?

LondonTiger wrote:

Pete C (Kiwireddevil) wrote:Jordie Barrett has been left out of the NZ U20s for the JRWC17 - so he'll be around to face the Lions. Stephen Perofeta (Blues) and Peter Umaga-Jensen (Hurricanes) are the other 2 eligible players with Super Rugby contracts, though both are currently injured - Umaga-Jensen's brother Thomas has made the squad)

http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/international/92367256/jordie-barrett-not-included-in-new-zealand-under20s-for-rugby-world-championship

So Thomas Umaga-Jensen could play against cousin Jacob?

Could well do

Pete C (Kiwireddevil) wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:

Pete C (Kiwireddevil) wrote:2009 - Capped NZ: Aaron Cruden, Elliot Dixon, Zac Guildford, Tom Taylor,
Capped Samoa: Ken Pisi
Capped Tonga: Nafi Tuitavake

2008 - Capped NZ: Ryan Crotty, Sam Whitelock, Matt Todd, Ben Afeaki, Aaron Smith,
Capped NZ Sevens: Kurt Baker
Capped Ireland: Rodney Ah You
Capped Scotland: Sean Maitland, John Hardie
Capped Tonga: Suliasi Taufalele, Tevita Koloamatangi, Paea Fa’anunu
Capped Australia: Michael Harris


The 2008 & 2011 teams playing each other would've have been worth a watch

I had a feeling 2008 would be the best represented. I had no idea some of those guys went back to their islands!

Quite a few Islands in that list

Just an opinion (not based on this, but backed up by this), but I think Under-20s should count as full representative for the purpose of tying players to a country, especially if it is in the World Championships or even the Six Nations.

I think at 18/19/20, you should be able to make an informed decision about who you are and who you want to represent internationally. You shouldn't be playing for a country in this tournament "just because your mates are" - as may be the case with junior rugby, and you shouldn't be using it as a shop window to get a big contract elsewhere and eventually a residency deal in that country.

robbo277 wrote:...I think at 18/19/20, you should be able to make an informed decision about who you are and who you want to represent internationally...

I can understand why someone might think that if it's been their own experience but it genuinely isn't true for a lot of individuals.

robbo277 wrote:

Pete C (Kiwireddevil) wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:

Pete C (Kiwireddevil) wrote:2009 - Capped NZ: Aaron Cruden, Elliot Dixon, Zac Guildford, Tom Taylor,
Capped Samoa: Ken Pisi
Capped Tonga: Nafi Tuitavake

2008 - Capped NZ: Ryan Crotty, Sam Whitelock, Matt Todd, Ben Afeaki, Aaron Smith,
Capped NZ Sevens: Kurt Baker
Capped Ireland: Rodney Ah You
Capped Scotland: Sean Maitland, John Hardie
Capped Tonga: Suliasi Taufalele, Tevita Koloamatangi, Paea Fa’anunu
Capped Australia: Michael Harris


The 2008 & 2011 teams playing each other would've have been worth a watch

I had a feeling 2008 would be the best represented. I had no idea some of those guys went back to their islands!

Quite a few Islands in that list

Just an opinion (not based on this, but backed up by this), but I think Under-20s should count as full representative for the purpose of tying players to a country, especially if it is in the World Championships or even the Six Nations.

I think at 18/19/20, you should be able to make an informed decision about who you are and who you want to represent internationally. You shouldn't be playing for a country in this tournament "just because your mates are" - as may be the case with junior rugby, and you shouldn't be using it as a shop window to get a big contract elsewhere and eventually a residency deal in that country.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/16428283

To be honest I would be happy with participation in the JWC committing you to a country. Current situation where it is possible that of two players appearing for Wales (or France) only one would be tied dependent on opposition is ridiculous. Biggest losers would be the PIs though.

LondonTiger wrote:To be honest I would be happy with participation in the JWC committing you to a country. Current situation where it is possible that of two players appearing for Wales (or France) only one would be tied dependent on opposition is ridiculous. Biggest losers would be the PIs though.

Yep. I suspect that's why NZ hasn't declared the Baby Blacks (U20s) as its 2nd team, even though the Junior All Blacks (NZ A) haven't played a match since 2009 - it's one small way of giving the Islands a helping hand

LondonTiger wrote:To be honest I would be happy with participation in the JWC committing you to a country. Current situation where it is possible that of two players appearing for Wales (or France) only one would be tied dependent on opposition is ridiculous. Biggest losers would be the PIs though.

I think tying players in at a young age is tough as a young guy could be dominant at a young age and be the best in the world but when they get with the big boys could be out of their depth and not make the grade and then miss out on any chance of Test rugby because hes a Kiwi/Aussie/Englishman

If U20's count as cementing you for one side, but then you never play for the seniors, then maybe a rule could be put in place...

If you haven't played for 3-4-5 years, you can be eligible for a 2nd tier side.

So that way Scotland and Wales wont be punished

In 2003 I`d just got myself a Pc and was with FreeServe and got into
a discussion with "JOVIAL JIM".There was the usual poaching PI`s bit
till I told him the facts of life.
In the course of conversation it was pointed out you could represent
two or more sides.E.g Jamie Salmon,Des Connor,Frank Bunce,Michael
Jones etc.
My take was by birth or parents qualified,NOT Grand Parents,ANY level
representation.[in NZ`s case]School boys,age group,Maori,7`s then
5 years residency.
Nz has run two A sides either Juniors or Maori but not two at the same
time due to cost`s.Loyalty is highly prized in Nz and once established
it takes a lot to get them out of the team.
Usually when they really bother Nz are there or there abouts.

emack2 wrote:In 2003 I`d just got myself a Pc and was with FreeServe and got into
a discussion with "JOVIAL JIM".There was the usual poaching PI`s bit
till I told him the facts of life.
In the course of conversation it was pointed out you could represent
two or more sides.E.g Jamie Salmon,Des Connor,Frank Bunce,Michael
Jones etc.
My take was by birth or parents qualified,NOT Grand Parents,ANY level
representation.[in NZ`s case]School boys,age group,Maori,7`s then
5 years residency.
Nz has run two A sides either Juniors or Maori but not two at the same
time due to cost`s.Loyalty is highly prized in Nz and once established
it takes a lot to get them out of the team.
Usually when they really bother Nz are there or there abouts.

The Maori are not an "A" side though emack - you have to be affiliated to a Maori Iwi (tribe) to be selected. Granted they take the budget and fixtures that used to go to the JABs, but a Maori cap doesn't tie you to NZ

marty2086 wrote:http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/16428283

That whole situation arose because the rules are not clear, hence why there was a debate around it, and it wasn't clear cut. I'd say Under 20s, any higher age group and any open age team should tie you.

Pete C (Kiwireddevil) wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:To be honest I would be happy with participation in the JWC committing you to a country. Current situation where it is possible that of two players appearing for Wales (or France) only one would be tied dependent on opposition is ridiculous. Biggest losers would be the PIs though.

Yep. I suspect that's why NZ hasn't declared the Baby Blacks (U20s) as its 2nd team, even though the Junior All Blacks (NZ A) haven't played a match since 2009 - it's one small way of giving the Islands a helping hand

marty2086 wrote:I think tying players in at a young age is tough as a young guy could be dominant at a young age and be the best in the world but when they get with the big boys could be out of their depth and not make the grade and then miss out on any chance of Test rugby because hes a Kiwi/Aussie/Englishman

Is that not a little having your cake and eating it too?

I oppose the plans to allow players capped at tier one nations stand down and then requalify for a tier two country, because it could lead to bigger countries hoovering up all the talent, and players deciding they'll "give it a go" at the higher level, with a safety net below. For me, that's not what reps rugby should be about.

I see the Under 20s as part of senior mens' representative rugby, and I think if World Rugby are serious about pushing it as such, they should make Under 20 caps, or at least JWC games, binding. Or we have cases such as the Shingler one above.

The ABs may have resisted putting the Baby Blacks as their second team because they'd find it harder to get dual registered players to commit their International careers to NZ for an Under 20 cap, which naturally has less gravitas than a full All Black cap.

Rugby Fan wrote:

robbo277 wrote:...I think at 18/19/20, you should be able to make an informed decision about who you are and who you want to represent internationally...

I can understand why someone might think that if it's been their own experience but it genuinely isn't true for a lot of individuals.

I'd be interested to discuss this point further, and maybe I was too crass in my language. But I think if there are players who are genuinely not sure about who they want to represent, they could always sit it out. I doubt the number would be too high.

We see players at that age or not that much older committing to one rugby nation via seniors or A sides, so although they possibly don't fully identify as from "one nation", they should be ready or nearly ready to make a rugby decision about where they want to commit to. Maybe that's a better way of expressing my point, and apologies if I caused any offence.

robbo277 wrote:
...

Pete C (Kiwireddevil) wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:To be honest I would be happy with participation in the JWC committing you to a country. Current situation where it is possible that of two players appearing for Wales (or France) only one would be tied dependent on opposition is ridiculous. Biggest losers would be the PIs though.

Yep. I suspect that's why NZ hasn't declared the Baby Blacks (U20s) as its 2nd team, even though the Junior All Blacks (NZ A) haven't played a match since 2009 - it's one small way of giving the Islands a helping hand

marty2086 wrote:I think tying players in at a young age is tough as a young guy could be dominant at a young age and be the best in the world but when they get with the big boys could be out of their depth and not make the grade and then miss out on any chance of Test rugby because hes a Kiwi/Aussie/Englishman

Is that not a little having your cake and eating it too?

I oppose the plans to allow players capped at tier one nations stand down and then requalify for a tier two country, because it could lead to bigger countries hoovering up all the talent, and players deciding they'll "give it a go" at the higher level, with a safety net below. For me, that's not what reps rugby should be about.

I see the Under 20s as part of senior mens' representative rugby, and I think if World Rugby are serious about pushing it as such, they should make Under 20 caps, or at least JWC games, binding. Or we have cases such as the Shingler one above.

The ABs may have resisted putting the Baby Blacks as their second team because they'd find it harder to get dual registered players to commit their International careers to NZ for an Under 20 cap, which naturally has less gravitas than a full All Black cap.

...

I genuinely don't believe NZ would have a problem getting dual registered players to commit. The mindset of most PI kids in NZ (both first- and second-generation) is coloured by the expectation that they need to make a contribution to the lives of their families/villages back home (they tend to feel ties both to NZ and their home island).

Polynesian rugby players can be sending massive chunks of their salaries back to villages that they may never have even visited. And there is a lot of family and Church pressure on them to do that. Representing Fiji/Tonga/Samoa (which sadly often costs a player money) comes a distant second to providing for their village.

That all means trying to maximise their career earnings - one way to do that is making the ABs, then "retiring" to Europe/Japan on a big money deal. Failing that, an NZ U20s appearance followed by some Super Rugby time is a good way to do earn a decent deal up North - a PI U20 appearance that capped you would impact the chances of a Super Rugby deal. You can go overseas from PI U20s and NPC in NZ, but will start on less money - plus if you're tied to NZ by a U20 deal you'll be worth more in Europe as you won't be disappearing off to play international rugby - NZ don't pick overseas players, the PIs do.

So all in all, you'd likely see players turning down the PI U20 teams as they chase the All Blacks dream rather than the reverse, because that route offers the best chance of providing for their families

robbo277 wrote:...I'd be interested to discuss this point further, and maybe I was too crass in my language. But I think if there are players who are genuinely not sure about who they want to represent, they could always sit it out. I doubt the number would be too high...

Don't think you were being crass at all. The whole eligibility muddle sometimes seems to cry out for some clear answers but the game develops in different ways across the globe, and cultures are different two. In Japan, you can't legally smoke, drink, take out a loan, or gamble until you are 20. That's also the earliest age you have to decide which nationality you want to keep if one of your parents isn't Japanese (Japan doesn't recognize dual nationality).

It's fine to lock in players like George North at 18 by selecting them for the senior side, but the U20s set-up is too close to school and regional development paths which shouldn't have any connection with professional rugby commitments.

Pete C (Kiwireddevil) wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:To be honest I would be happy with participation in the JWC committing you to a country. Current situation where it is possible that of two players appearing for Wales (or France) only one would be tied dependent on opposition is ridiculous. Biggest losers would be the PIs though.

Yep. I suspect that's why NZ hasn't declared the Baby Blacks (U20s) as its 2nd team, even though the Junior All Blacks (NZ A) haven't played a match since 2009 - it's one small way of giving the Islands a helping hand

Exiledinborders wrote:

Pete C (Kiwireddevil) wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:To be honest I would be happy with participation in the JWC committing you to a country. Current situation where it is possible that of two players appearing for Wales (or France) only one would be tied dependent on opposition is ridiculous. Biggest losers would be the PIs though.

Yep. I suspect that's why NZ hasn't declared the Baby Blacks (U20s) as its 2nd team, even though the Junior All Blacks (NZ A) haven't played a match since 2009 - it's one small way of giving the Islands a helping hand

Good point. I forgot to mention that it also helps Scotland, Wales, Ireland & Australia who've all selected NZ U20 players. A nice wee gesture from us . That granted doesn't costs us any $$s

Anyway it's moot, seeing as no U20 teams count as capping players from next year

The change to 5yr residency was not the only change to qualification criterea WR made. Dont know if this has been missed, but noone seems to me discussing it. (EDIT - Sorry Pete. missed that on your last post). Ahem...Apart from Pete C who mentions it above.

Cant post lnk as I'm a new member (V. long time reader though!) but all changes are on World rugby site

Judging by this thread, quite a few people want players to commit to a nation earlier (i.e @U20). Looks like WR are going the other way....

"Unions may no longer nominate their U20s team as their next senior national representative team (effective 1 January, 2018) (majority)"

SD wrote:The change to 5yr residency was not the only change to qualification criterea WR made. dont know if this has ben missed, but noone seems to me discussing it

Cant post lnk as I'm a new member (V. long time reader though!) but all changes are on World rugby site

Judging by this thread, quite a few people want players to commit to a nation earlier (i.e @U20). Looks like WR are going the other way....

"Unions may no longer nominate their U20s team as their next senior national representative team (effective 1 January, 2018) (majority)"

Also, you can now qualify by non-continuous residency of 10 years plus so if your parents moved between 2 countries a lot in your childhood ...

So, what happens when there isn't another 2nd team? Only full international caps will country tie?