Ulster 2016/2017

First topic message reminder :

Redman wrote:

clivemcl wrote:Any inside info on Dom Ryan yet? 27 and the only IQ backrower not tied up for next year. Where do you put his out of interest in a pecking order? Better or worse than Clive Ross? My hunch is better, but I've not really ever watched him closely.

Has to be better.  I looked him up before and he has something like 100 or so caps for Leinster.  Ross has about 50 for us, and it's got to be tougher to get a cap for Leinster than it is for Ulster in the backrow - even allowing for international call ups.  

Dryan ®, as he shall be known if he signs, also has 20 or so U20 caps.  

That said, I haven't seen him play.

clivemcl wrote:LD initially asked us for our opinion on how our season went. That.... that is appropriate and how normal people have discussions.

But before anyone actually give any answers, he dives right in with his mis-informed opinion that we have been bad, and guess what, he has a list of reasons why.

I call that trolling. I have opinions about a lot of things - doesn't mean I think it's appropriate to get right into the middle of the thing and start telling people my thoughts.

Feel free to come and look for insight, but how about you hold fire on your analysis until you actually gather some of the information you quite clearly didn't have.

He said "I think it is because..." which is also appropriate and how normal people have discussions. Throwing a child-like tantrum is not.

LD is not a troll, and thank goodness those trolls have been gone for the majority of the season. He is just annoying haha.

LordDowlais wrote:Clive, I do not need to wait for people's insight for me to come to the conclusion that Rory Best has been a shadow of the player he is capable of being this season.

Oh, and that is for both Ulster and Ireland.

The guy needs a break. A well earned break. Also, if he is not Ulsters captain anymore, then perhaps he should hand the baton of doing post match interviews and the what not to somebody else.

LD, sorry but when was the last time Rory did a post match interview? Post match interviews are decided on by the broadcaster, they normally speak with the captains from both sides, man of the match and maybe someone who has been in the headlines.

Maybe you want him to hand over kicking duties to someone else too

Rorys problems at the lineout are minimal and due to lineout problems for Ireland and Ulster and are the only part of his game that have suffered, everything else is fine contrary to your claim his scrummaging has went backwards

As long as Best starts for the Lions ahead of that bluffer Owens, I'm happy.

I hear he's been telling Gatland he also keeps sheep on the farm to try and appear more Welsh

marty, on numerous times on BBC NI and BBC Wales I have seen Rory Best in front of that perspex screen with advertising on it giving post match interviews, I saw him on there not so long back where he was apologising to the Ulster fans for losing. Also, I always see him debating with referees during a match.

I always flit back and forth to BBC 2 Wales and BBC 2 NI and the Scottish channels on a Friday night when the rugby is on the tele. I do manage to catch some Ulster games. If Rory is not the captain, then he certainly is taking a lot of work off the captain.

But as we all say, form is temporary, class is permanent. I am not for one minute saying Rory has lost it, or saying that he is rubbish, what I am saying, is that this season has not been his best, yet he is often looked on as the face of Ulster rugby, he is for me. If somebody was asking me to name an Ulster rugby player the first name that comes to mind is Rory Best. I am sure he will get back to his Best, hopefully when he is playing for the Lions.

I just think that Ulster Rugby needs to be less about Rory Best, and more about Ulster rugby, he needs this burden taken off him. There are some big players on big salaries at Ulster, they need to start shouldering more of the responsibilities.

Can't argue with most of that.

Rory has started 7 league games all season

The thing is, Rory relinquished his captaincy - for the very reasons LD suggests - and it didn't make a good season. Probably because we have nobody suitable to take over. Trimble/Herring was a shambles.

Anyone else thing Paddy is old enough and assured enough for the job? Or if he can stop being injured - Coetzee?

LD to answer your question

The coaching set up has been totally broken (with them not speaking to each other and even one session abandoned because of Doak and Clarke squaring up to each other) and we have had no backrow to speak off - Henderson, Henry and Coetzee playing hardly any games between them. Reidy has been our only consistent backrow and should be player of year for that.

Best has not been a talisman this year and indeed the cover has been credible, albeit the 3rd choice Andrew has often out played the second choice Herring.
Herring and Trimble have been awful as joint captains.
We should have gone with Henry as captain and our pack leader de Merwe as vice.
I have seen plenty of players doing the talking - Coetzee, de Merwe, Henry, Jackson all come to mind and all have talked more than Trimble or, convincingly, more than Herring who often looks like a bunny in the headlights.


Clive please shut up you are embarrassing yourself and us with you posts  

The trouble is Marty that a few of those games Ulster have been very poor in - mainly games towards the end of the season when Ulster were coachless and the set piece fell apart.

Rory himself has been fine for most of the season both in Europe and for Ireland. The highlight was outplaying Dane Coles twice which probably secured his Lions spot. I'd be surprised if Ireland still weren't near the top of the lineout charts this season, despite the extra pressure on Rory playing more gametime because of the understudy injuries.
I know I'm a broken record about Ulster's weakness in the backrow but that has hurt Best's prowess at the breakdown this season. He still makes turnovers for Ireland but now finds himself more often than not, a lone hand at Ulster. If Rory is perceived as having suffered a loss of form this season, that has not caused Ulster's decline but rather vice versa.

Ulster actually have a decent front row with good depth if they can stay fit, so that is the last part of the pack that needs addressed. The barista Black being replaced by SVdM should be an improvement.
Ulster have lost three experienced locks this season with apparently no plans for any major signings so that is an area of great concern. Even if Henderson and Diack are to play lock exclusively Ulster are still a man down.
Worse than that Henderson and Diack were needed plenty in the backrow this season so that's two down in the loose forwards and only Botha in to replace Wilson. I don't know if Cunningham isn't being given any money to recruit or he can't talk up Ulster, but next season will be another write-off unless a couple of quality forwards are recruited.

Aren't Cardiff Blues getting one of your second rowers for next season ? A quite experienced one as well. How are you replacing him ?

Also, the coaching situation seems to be a bit of a shambles if what you are all saying is correct. It is not something I would have expected from one of the Irish provinces, how has it been left to get so badly out of hand ? Have the IRFU stepped in to bang some heads together ? It looks like they need to.

vdM is off to Cardiff and is being replaced by a backrow as Henderson is moving into the second row.

As for the coaches they were the IRFUs boys

LD, i apologise for jumping down your throat earlier. A bit sore on it after this season. It felt to me that you were coming over to tell us why we suck. It was unfair to suggest you had no right to offer your analysis and opinion.

As embarrassing as i may be to Geoff and my fellow supporters i at least am known for willingly accepting my humble pie.

LordDowlais wrote:Also, the coaching situation seems to be a bit of a shambles if what you are all saying is correct. It is not something I would have expected from one of the Irish provinces, how has it been left to get so badly out of hand ? Have the IRFU stepped in to bang some heads together ? It looks like they need to.

The coaches were there at the IRFU's behest in their long quest to have indigenous coaching as well. Both were ex-Ulster players in the usual jobs for the utterly entitled boys mode. They were well broken for some time. This season saw it really come to a head due to power trips and Kiss being unable to gain control. A farce that you couldn't write into a Greek tragedy and the reason our defence coach Joe Barakat simply sodded off. The CEO should really go too as he is complicit in the whole affair.

This could all be fake news but I got it from here, t'other forum and my own internal sources

clivemcl wrote:LD, i apologise for jumping down your throat earlier. A bit sore on it after this season. It felt to me that you were coming over to tell us why we suck. It was unfair to suggest you had no right to offer your analysis and opinion.

As embarrassing as i may be to Geoff and my fellow supporters i at least am known for willingly accepting my humble pie.

Fair play sir. 

clivemcl wrote:LD, i apologise for jumping down your throat earlier. A bit sore on it after this season. It felt to me that you were coming over to tell us why we suck. It was unfair to suggest you had no right to offer your analysis and opinion.

As embarrassing as i may be to Geoff and my fellow supporters i at least am known for willingly accepting my humble pie.

Fair play - it takes a man to admit he went to far (I've done it myself)

Do Ulster fans think the pros of being so tied to the IRFU (as opposed to a club system with more autonomy) outweigh the cons?

Not from the point of view of the Irish international set up, just as Ulster fans?

I know this probably could be a wider thread, but I've noticed a lot of comment about Nucifora, the current Ulster coaches and the movement of players such as Pienaar.

Indeed - fair play Clive.

Geoff - could you give us the narrative of Ulster coaching?

Why did Humphreys throw McGlock under the bus, did we ever find out? Was Brian always supposed to be an emergency caretaker coach after Williams?

We all know why Anscombe went but did Nucifora then want Doak and Clarke in charge as part of the obsession with Irish coaching talent? Was Kiss a D4 edict when it necessary clear they weren't good enough? Or was he always supposed to take over in the long term once Anscombe was fired?

Ulster are quite capable of making a hames of our coaching appointments under our own steam, but have D4 helped or hindered?

Don Alfonso wrote:Indeed - fair play Clive.

Geoff - could you give us the narrative of Ulster coaching?

Why did Humphreys throw McGlock under the bus, did we ever find out? Was Brian always supposed to be an emergency caretaker coach after Williams?

We all know why Anscombe went but did Nucifora then want Doak and Clarke in charge as part of the obsession with Irish coaching talent? Was Kiss a D4 edict when it necessary clear they weren't good enough? Or was he always supposed to take over in the long term once Anscombe was fired?

Ulster are quite capable of making a hames of our coaching appointments under our own steam, but have D4 helped or hindered?

Nucifora is bringing in mostly foreign coaches. He said he wants experienced coaches at the provinces.

Not initially. There was a lot of waffle about homegrown coaches. That didn't work, and now he's revised his aims.

clivemcl wrote:LD, i apologise for jumping down your throat earlier. A bit sore on it after this season. It felt to me that you were coming over to tell us why we suck. It was unfair to suggest you had no right to offer your analysis and opinion.

As embarrassing as i may be to Geoff and my fellow supporters i at least am known for willingly accepting my humble pie.

Clive, you seriously do not need to apologise to me, I understand how things sometimes get on here, but apology accepted none the less.

Don't worry about the humble pie, I have had more than my fair share of that on here, probably more than anybody else.

I know I can get a lot of people's backs up on here, but I do not do it on purpose, I am the same on here as I am in real life, and that is I have opinions, and I will share them with people, whether they like them or not. I do not get offended when people counter my opinions, or take umbrage with them, it is a free world, but it is never my intention to troll or poke fun.

Don Alfonso wrote:  Indeed - fair play Clive.

Geoff - could you give us the narrative of Ulster coaching?

Do I'll attempt to answer to the best of my knowledge

Don Alfonso wrote:Why did Humphreys throw McGlock under the bus, did we ever find out? Was Brian always supposed to be an emergency caretaker coach after Williams?  

McGlock was brought in to provide quality coaching after Williams.
I don't wish to appear mean but Williams as a person was just plain odd.
Mentally highly strung and did not connect with players, or anyone else.
Ulster needed a top quality coach and McGlock was at hand.
Unfortunately he is also a rather a reserved, withdrawn man who is not able to impose himself on players - it worked because Humphreys and Muller were there.
Humphreys was looking to bring a genuine head coach who didn't need propping up.
Matt Sexton walked away because Humphreys wouldn't give up control and (this still haunts me) Cheika was on the old prom getting the hard sell from Constable at that time and no doubt walked away for the same reason.
He could have been our coach.

Don Alfonso wrote:We all know why Anscombe went but did Nucifora then want Doak and Clarke in charge as part of the obsession with Irish coaching talent?

The edict was we should have some local coaches - Ulster decided Doak and Clarke were the best Ulstermen available

Don Alfonso wrote:Was Kiss a D4 edict when it necessary clear they weren't good enough? Or was he always supposed to take over in the long term once Anscombe was fired?

Humphreys leaving was a complete shock to Logan.
To be honest I think he was in panic mode, he doesn't know one end of a rugby ball from the other.
Muller told him Doak and Clarke were not up to it so he went to D4 cap in hand and said please help - they offered Kiss.
We decided on the length of contract - again panic because Logan no longer had Humphreys as his rugby prop.

Don Alfonso wrote:Ulster are quite capable of making a hames of our coaching appointments under our own steam, but have D4 helped or hindered?  

I have to say, in terms of coaching, I don't think D4 have hindered us (decision on players is a different matter) but when your CEO knows nothing about the game you need another person to make the right decisions
You would hope Cunningham could do that role

Don Alfonso wrote:We all know why Anscombe went

I went back and listened to the Ulster special on the Rugby Pod last night with Cave and Ferris and Anscombe did not come out of that well at all, how he got the job seems baffling listening to it. Anyone else heard? Some 'interesting' stories in it

Marty do you have a link ?

geoff999rugby wrote:Marty do  you have a link ?

The episode is titled 'Titti Von Tramp', Cave is clearly a fan of Anscombe as a bloke but he does come out of it as a throw back at best

The Rugby Pod episodes

Williams gets a mention and backs up what you've just said

Be warned though, you may well come out of it liking Jim Hamilton

cheers

marty2086 wrote:

geoff999rugby wrote:Marty do  you have a link ?

The episode is titled 'Titti Von Tramp', Cave is clearly a fan of Anscombe as a bloke but he does come out of it as a throw back at best

The Rugby Pod episodes

Williams gets a mention and backs up what you've just said

Be warned though, you may well come out of it liking Jim Hamilton

Anscombe is an interesting one. Struggled a bit at Auckland (not the first, or the last), & wasn't offered the Blues gig (though that's a poisoned chalice), did win a JRWC - though for the final he did select his son at #10, with Lima Sopoaga at 12 and Beauden Barrett at 15 ...

Cheers Geoff - thanks for the rundown.

I personally take the criticism of Anscombe with a pinch of salt. He ruffled a few feathers because he wasn't part of the jobs for the boys culture.

It is well known that certain local boys used to go over the coaches head when not selected, and the club have a history of undermining their coaches.

Anscombe challenged this player power and it got him in the end as it did his predecessors.

Kiss will see the same fate eventually but I've never rated him anyway...

rodders, what was said about Anscombe was not presented as criticism I didn't want put it on here in case anyone wanted to listen for themselves and judge for themselves but I've put it in a spoiler box below

Rugby Pod:

Holy Poopie. Odd that the complete lack of professionalism contrasts with the fact we as a team looked at our most professional when he was in charge.
It wasn't always pretty but by and large we won the games we were supposed to win.

Still think we've never looked as good as we did when McGlocks was in charge. We played some phenomenal rugby back then. Put some good teams to the sword.

rodders wrote:I personally take the criticism of Anscombe with a pinch of salt. He ruffled a few feathers because he wasn't part of the jobs for the boys culture.

It is well known that certain local boys used to go over the coaches head when not selected, and the club have a history of undermining their coaches.

Anscombe challenged this player power and it got him in the end as it did his predecessors.  

Kiss will see the same fate eventually but I've never rated him anyway...  

Anscombe did not go because of player power

Anscombe went because his conduct off the pitch was totally unacceptable

The man had a serious drink problem and was an embarrassment to the club - the hierarchy were not prepared to tolerate it any further and sacked him.
Rightly so.
In fact some of his conduct, shall I say, sailed close to the wind, legally.

To claim any coach was undermined by players is too simplistic - even McCall only went because of Reid allowing a couple of players to give him abuse and not back him, some fans utterly disgraced themselves in respect to McCall as well.

Players did not get rid of McGlock, Anscombe or Williams  - Humphreys got rid of McGlock because he was looking for better (but shot himself in the foot by holding on to power) and the
Board got rid of the other two.
Both of those Board decisions were hundred % correct - the McGlock decision also made sense albeit Humphreys handled it very very badly.

geoff999rugby wrote:
Anscombe went because his conduct off the pitch was totally unacceptable

The man had a serious drink problem and was an embarrassment to the club - the hierarchy were not prepared to tolerate it any further and sacked him.
Rightly so.
In fact some of his conduct, shall I say, sailed close to the wind, legally.

This is one of the impressions I got from Caves stories, I think the phrase 'liked a drink' was used at one point

Also made me wonder about that text message to Pat Lam

geoff999rugby wrote:
The man had a serious drink problem and was an embarrassment to the club - the hierarchy were not prepared to tolerate it any further and sacked him.
Rightly so.
In fact some of his conduct, shall I say, sailed close to the wind, legally.

But yet the club stood by Roger Wilson despite repeated drink related offences?

There were activities at a Player of the Year function and at Cutters Wharf that had to be seen to be believed.

Which are also too risky, for liable reasons, to recount

rodders wrote:

geoff999rugby wrote:
The man had a serious drink problem and was an embarrassment to the club - the hierarchy were not prepared to tolerate it any further and sacked him.
Rightly so.
In fact some of his conduct, shall I say, sailed close to the wind, legally.

But yet the club stood by Roger Wilson despite repeated drink related offences?  

He was punished in law and that was it.
Anscombe did it whilst working and in an official capacity, and repeatedly.

To be honest as a drinker Roger Wilson was in the same league as Anscombe.
Wilson never turned up drunk for work as far as I am aware, for example.

Wilson was docked wages too, two weeks like Herron was not so long ago

Was Wilson not driving a company car though?

marty2086 wrote:

geoff999rugby wrote:
Anscombe went because his conduct off the pitch was totally unacceptable

The man had a serious drink problem and was an embarrassment to the club - the hierarchy were not prepared to tolerate it any further and sacked him.
Rightly so.
In fact some of his conduct, shall I say, sailed close to the wind, legally.

This is one of the impressions I got from Caves stories, I think the phrase 'liked a drink' was used at one point

Also made me wonder about that text message to Pat Lam

The message sent to Pat Lam from Anscombe's phone during a house party at Anscombe's house? To be honest I thought Ulster would have cut him free for that alone but he got away with it by claiming it was someone else that took his phone and sent the racist texts. Oh how things could have been so different

That's the one Pete, you can't crucify someone without proof and why exactly would someone be that stupid?

marty2086 wrote:That's the one Pete, you can't crucify someone without proof and why exactly would someone be that stupid?

I know you can't but at the time I thought he was going to be found out and possibly charged for a racist offence. I reckon it was him as he'd had previous with Pat. I also seem to remember his son shouldering the blame and put down to drunken high jinks. The brown stuff sticks at they say

marty2086 wrote:Wilson was docked wages too, two weeks like Herron was not so long ago

Was Wilson not driving a company car though?

He wasn't working at the time and it was a one off.
It didn't affect how he conducted himself when representing the club.

Wilson did something stupid but to suggest it is in any way comparable to Anscombe is nonsense

Pete330v2 wrote:

marty2086 wrote:That's the one Pete, you can't crucify someone without proof and why exactly would someone be that stupid?

I know you can't but at the time I thought he was going to be found out and possibly charged for a racist offence. I reckon it was him as he'd had previous with Pat. I also seem to remember his son shouldering the blame and put down to drunken high jinks. The brown stuff sticks at they say

Agreed the defence was paper thin and not truly credible.

Why would someone do something stupid?

Well maybe be being out of his head, a semi permanent condition, could have something to do with it.
They do say when drunk you find out what someone really thinks

geoff999rugby wrote:

Pete330v2 wrote:

marty2086 wrote:That's the one Pete, you can't crucify someone without proof and why exactly would someone be that stupid?

I know you can't but at the time I thought he was going to be found out and possibly charged for a racist offence. I reckon it was him as he'd had previous with Pat. I also seem to remember his son shouldering the blame and put down to drunken high jinks. The brown stuff sticks at they say

Agreed the defence was paper thin and not truly credible.

Why would someone do something stupid?

Well maybe be being out of his head, a semi permanent condition, could have something to do with it.
They do say when drunk you find out what someone really thinks

I agree, I was referring to using it as a defence and I doubt Ulster knew of his problems at the time

geoff999rugby wrote:

marty2086 wrote:Wilson was docked wages too, two weeks like Herron was not so long ago

Was Wilson not driving a company car though?

He wasn't working at the time and it was a one off.
It didn't affect how he conducted himself when representing the club.

Wilson did something stupid but to suggest it is in any way comparable to Anscombe is nonsense

I mentioned a company car because it was damaged and uninsured so that came at a cost to Ulster Rugby

geoff999rugby wrote:

marty2086 wrote:Wilson was docked wages too, two weeks like Herron was not so long ago

Was Wilson not driving a company car though?

He wasn't working at the time and it was a one off.
It didn't affect how he conducted himself when representing the club.

Wilson did something stupid but to suggest it is in any way comparable to Anscombe is nonsense

But yet they still gave Anscombe a new contract despite being so bad?

It wasn't a one off offence by Wilson though he has a previous a mile long.

Humphreys gave Anscombe a new contract and then left as fast as he could when he realised it was a mistake.
Also his conducted deteriorated significantly during the time after the renewal.

Wilson is no saint, infact I don't particularly like the bloke, but he doesn't come close to Anscombe in terms of disgracing himself at work and humiliating the club in Public - not even remotely.

If Wilsons driving offences are a mile long, Anscombes offence would fill a marathon and some

Fair enough, anyway no point looking backwards, hopefully we'll fair better next season under the new set up.

We do seem to have our share of behind the scenes dramas though!

Agreed - to my mind Ulster have not selected a credible Head Coach since Alan Solomons and he was nothing special.

Too soon for Mark McCall
Mark Williams was as mad as a box of frogs
McGlock and Anscombe had character flaws but got the job because better people turned us down due to Humphreys being a control freak
Kiss was a panic appointment, and it shows

Hopefully Gibbes turns out better and is allowed to run the show

Humhpreys isn't pulling up any trees in Gloucester... they finished 9th behind Newcastle this year. I think he knew his stock was as high as it was going to be and got out. I don't think we are missing much.

Fingers crossed for Gibbes

Humphreys has a seven figure contract to console himself. He was an opportunist as a player and doesn't seem to have changed since.