Gat for NZ?

First topic message reminder :

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/sport/id-love-to-beat-the-all-blacks-then-coach-them-mjlvjb90b

He should go coach in Samoa or Fiji then

Taylorman wrote:

majesticimperialman wrote:Does any one seriously think/believe that Gatland will end up coaching the All Blacks?

I mean come on seriously?

........until he cuts it at Super rugby, he's not going any further. He needs to prove he can coach, select and win at NZs style of rugby, with NZ players.

^This is the answer, case closed

He could still look at Super rugby and put his hand up from there. He might adopt a different gameplan with the right players.

With Wales he's been up against it, mostly playing better sides through most of his tenure, similar to Henry's experiences and certainly better than Hansen's and having a good mix of success, but mostly a poor run against the SH sides, bar a pretty flaky Lions win which could have been lost 2-0 if not for Beale miss.

Super rugby would be the only way he would get a look in, even if he were to win the Lions series, though that certainly would help, and he'd have to be lucky there's an opening, Blues, Saders, Chiefs and Canes probably tied up for a while.

Whatever you all think if Gatland wins this tour he will be NZ coach one day.

Don't think so. He's learnt all his coaching in the NH and we don't need/want a NH coach.

ebop wrote:Don't think so. He's learnt all his coaching in the NH and we don't need/want an NH coach.

Like Graham Henry then I guess.

OH and Hansen, we know where that international double act began

Maybe look into Henry's record for Auckland and the Blues

And Hansen's record with Canterbury and the Crusaders

Henry and Hansen learnt how to coach in NZ before dabbling in international coaching with Wales. Compare that with Gatland. He's a NH coach.

Galwegians RFC
Connacht
Ireland
Wasps
Wales
British and Irish Lions

Henry and Hansen learned to be club coaches in NZ before learning to be international coaches with Wales and The Lions, before returning to the greatest resource of rugby players on earth to win the RWC. You're welcome. (that said Hansen was an awful coach of Wales)

ebop wrote:Henry and Hansen learnt how to coach in NZ before dabbling in international coaching with Wales. Compare that with Gatland. He's a NH coach.

Galwegians RFC
Connacht
Ireland
Wasps
Wales 3 x 6 Nations wins
British and Irish Lions 1 x win....so far

He is also the most successful NH coach and an All Black and when he wins this tour will return to super rugby on his way to being NZ coach at some point. Shame that a country man regards him as damaged goods, real shame.

One slight problem, the Lions have very little chance of winning.

Now we're getting somewhere

Gatland is a NH coach and if he can prove he can coach the NZ way with NZ players and win Super Rugby then his resume will be pretty compelling and NZR would have to seriously consider him

Previously, it sounded like you were saying he'd just walk into the ABs straight from Wales. This is highly unlikely imo.

Never said that at all. It was you dismissing him as NH Coach'; inference was clear.

Sadly yet another example of the overt arrogance that NZ fans display; your coaches and players are good enough to earn a living in the NH but our most successful, former ABs at that, ain't.

Hammersmith harrier wrote:One slight problem, the Lions have very little chance of winning.

with such lame support, its true. Perhaps you ought to turn off your tv.

Gwlad, think of it more as quality control than arrogance

When you're only putting up one coach, simply because he's coached the country you live in or support it's hardly good analysis.

Have you made a comparison with the other potential candidates? I haven't seen any. There are a number of good coaches around that are spoken of as much more likely than Gatland so there's also a touch of arrogance don't you think, a very narrow view.

One thing that will go against him is that he's adopted the same approach, same gameplans, more or less the same players in his efforts to beat the SH countries yet lost just about every occasion.

That suggests a myopic approach, an unwillingness to adopt different strategies.

One thing we know for certain for instance is that the gameplan the Lions will adopt will be typical of his Welsh gameplan, one that isn't very effective and is incredibly predictable.

We know that because he knows no other way and to take that on now would be to take something on he knows little about, so he'll be out of his comfort zone, and that's something he definitely won't want in NZ.

He's the wrong coach for this tour, simple as that.

Taylorman wrote:When you're only putting up one coach, simply because he's coached the country you live in or support it's hardly good analysis.

Have you made a comparison with the other potential candidates? I haven't seen any. There are a number of good coaches around that are spoken of as much more likely than Gatland so there's also a touch of arrogance don't you think, a very narrow view.

One thing that will go against him is that he's adopted the same approach, same gameplans, more or less the same players in his efforts to beat the SH countries yet lost just about every occasion.

That suggests a myopic approach, an unwillingness to adopt different strategies.

One thing we know for certain for instance is that the gameplan the Lions will adopt will be typical of his Welsh gameplan, one that isn't very effective and is incredibly predictable.

We know that because he knows no other way and to take that on now would be to take something on he knows little about, so he'll be out of his comfort zone, and that's something he definitely won't want in NZ.

He's the wrong coach for this tour, simple as that.

He's the only coach that could have lead the Lions right now because he IS the Lions coach. And he will lead NZ one day, and I hope when he does you'll put your pettiness behind and get behind your countryman.
I suggest you watch the start of the first test last year before talking about a Welsh gameplan and predictability. What is predictable is that NZ go into every game thinking they have their opposition's number and that is their weakness. Most two eyed fans knew that the result of that game flattered to deceive. And Ireland properly finished the job. NZ are ripe for the taking and IMO all these assumptions that you know what's coming might just be your undoing. You are about to face the strongest line squad for over 30 years. Buckle up.

Gwlad wrote:

Taylorman wrote:When you're only putting up one coach, simply because he's coached the country you live in or support it's hardly good analysis.

Have you made a comparison with the other potential candidates? I haven't seen any. There are a number of good coaches around that are spoken of as much more likely than Gatland so there's also a touch of arrogance don't you think, a very narrow view.

One thing that will go against him is that he's adopted the same approach, same gameplans, more or less the same players in his efforts to beat the SH countries yet lost just about every occasion.

That suggests a myopic approach, an unwillingness to adopt different strategies.

One thing we know for certain for instance is that the gameplan the Lions will adopt will be typical of his Welsh gameplan, one that isn't very effective and is incredibly predictable.

We know that because he knows no other way and to take that on now would be to take something on he knows little about, so he'll be out of his comfort zone, and that's something he definitely won't want in NZ.

He's the wrong coach for this tour, simple as that.

He's the only coach that could have lead the Lions right now because he IS the Lions coach. And he will lead NZ one day, and I hope when he does you'll put your pettiness behind and get behind your countryman.
I suggest you watch the start of the first test last year before talking about a Welsh gameplan and predictability. What is predictable is that NZ go into every game thinking they have their opposition's number and that is their weakness. Most two eyed fans knew that the result of that game flattered to deceive. And Ireland properly finished the job. NZ are ripe for the taking and IMO all these assumptions that you know what's coming might just be your undoing. You are about to face the strongest line squad for over 30 years. Buckle up.

If we are predictable in  thinking we have the oppositions number, which I doubt,  then for 90 per cent of the time that will be because it's true, and guess what one test in the last ten Lions tests just happens to be.

The first part of the first test? Aah, you mean the half that was the first test the ABs had played for about seven months? Yes, they do tend to need a few minutes together after that long.

Best side for 30 years...now lets see... that makes it since 1987. So they've won one test here in that time. 1983 they lost all of them, 1977 it was 3 of four lost.

So what are you saying, they're still going to lose? Or do you mean fifty years perhaps? Hard to tell what the significance of the best side in thirty years actually means.

I accept it's possible we could lose this series but absolutely nothing, recent or otherwise supports that fact, other than the fact that the tests have yet to be played.

Gwlad wrote:

He's the only coach that could have lead the Lions right now because he IS the Lions coach. And he will lead NZ one day, and I hope when he does you'll put your pettiness behind and get behind your countryman.
I suggest you watch the start of the first test last year before talking about a Welsh gameplan and predictability. What is predictable is that NZ go into every game thinking they have their opposition's number and that is their weakness. Most two eyed fans knew that the result of that game flattered to deceive. And Ireland properly finished the job. NZ are ripe for the taking and IMO all these assumptions that you know what's coming might just be your undoing. You are about to face the strongest line squad for over 30 years. Buckle up.

If Gatland is ever AB's coach he'll get full support. Not unequivocal support - no NZ coach gets that, the whole country will be analysing & critiquing results as per usual.

Fundamentally though he'll need to prove himself in Super Rugby with NZ players first. With Wales he's proven that he can get Welsh players to play better for Wales vs Northern Hemisphere opposition than they do for their clubs. He's generally failed to get that same level of performance out of Welsh player vs SH teams, so has a big question mark over his coaching style that could be addressed by Super Rugby success.

Where do we now go for a thread without one person filling up the pages arguing with everyone else defending everything Welsh and Gatland?

Just one thread please............

Pete C (Kiwireddevil) wrote:

Gwlad wrote:

He's the only coach that could have lead the Lions right now because he IS the Lions coach. And he will lead NZ one day, and I hope when he does you'll put your pettiness behind and get behind your countryman.
I suggest you watch the start of the first test last year before talking about a Welsh gameplan and predictability. What is predictable is that NZ go into every game thinking they have their opposition's number and that is their weakness. Most two eyed fans knew that the result of that game flattered to deceive. And Ireland properly finished the job. NZ are ripe for the taking and IMO all these assumptions that you know what's coming might just be your undoing. You are about to face the strongest line squad for over 30 years. Buckle up.

If Gatland is ever AB's coach he'll get full support. Not unequivocal support - no NZ coach gets that, the whole country will be analysing & critiquing results as per usual.

Fundamentally though he'll need to prove himself in Super Rugby with NZ players first. With Wales he's proven that he can get Welsh players to play better for Wales vs Northern Hemisphere opposition than they do for their clubs. He's generally failed to get that same level of performance out of Welsh player vs SH teams, so has a big question mark over his coaching style that could be addressed by Super Rugby success.

Yes Pete that's true so how do you think he would go with say the Chiefs, Highlanders etc?

How much of his inability to win is due to relative player strengths and therefore a necessity to play to a certain formula where given a NZ side that would currently beat just about every oz and SA side and be on or near par internally?

There are aspects he would certainly excel at...fronting the media, introduce the best of the NH ideas, things we may not have heard of or are familiar with. Handle pressure situations...whether he makes the right decisions is another thing but he would certainly be decisive.

I could see him going straight onto the panel, not as head coach but he probably has more immediate value from an international perspective than Super rugby. Overseas contacts, knowledge of the NH sides etc. He could learn the NZ way with the ABs. I'm not sure coaching a successful Super side is a must...but I could be wrong. If say Hansen went and Fozziecstepped up I could see him being useful there for example. Besides, our Super sides are full. All with new or already successful coaches.

Gwlad wrote:

Taylorman wrote:When you're only putting up one coach, simply because he's coached the country you live in or support it's hardly good analysis.

Have you made a comparison with the other potential candidates? I haven't seen any. There are a number of good coaches around that are spoken of as much more likely than Gatland so there's also a touch of arrogance don't you think, a very narrow view.

One thing that will go against him is that he's adopted the same approach, same gameplans, more or less the same players in his efforts to beat the SH countries yet lost just about every occasion.

That suggests a myopic approach, an unwillingness to adopt different strategies.

One thing we know for certain for instance is that the gameplan the Lions will adopt will be typical of his Welsh gameplan, one that isn't very effective and is incredibly predictable.

We know that because he knows no other way and to take that on now would be to take something on he knows little about, so he'll be out of his comfort zone, and that's something he definitely won't want in NZ.

He's the wrong coach for this tour, simple as that.

He's the only coach that could have lead the Lions right now because he IS the Lions coach. And he will lead NZ one day, and I hope when he does you'll put your pettiness behind and get behind your countryman.
I suggest you watch the start of the first test last year before talking about a Welsh gameplan and predictability. What is predictable is that NZ go into every game thinking they have their opposition's number and that is their weakness. Most two eyed fans knew that the result of that game flattered to deceive. And Ireland properly finished the job. NZ are ripe for the taking and IMO all these assumptions that you know what's coming might just be your undoing. You are about to face the strongest line squad for over 30 years. Buckle up.

This is quite desperate.

Taylorman wrote:

Pete C (Kiwireddevil) wrote:

Gwlad wrote:

He's the only coach that could have lead the Lions right now because he IS the Lions coach. And he will lead NZ one day, and I hope when he does you'll put your pettiness behind and get behind your countryman.
I suggest you watch the start of the first test last year before talking about a Welsh gameplan and predictability. What is predictable is that NZ go into every game thinking they have their opposition's number and that is their weakness. Most two eyed fans knew that the result of that game flattered to deceive. And Ireland properly finished the job. NZ are ripe for the taking and IMO all these assumptions that you know what's coming might just be your undoing. You are about to face the strongest line squad for over 30 years. Buckle up.

If Gatland is ever AB's coach he'll get full support. Not unequivocal support - no NZ coach gets that, the whole country will be analysing & critiquing results as per usual.

Fundamentally though he'll need to prove himself in Super Rugby with NZ players first. With Wales he's proven that he can get Welsh players to play better for Wales vs Northern Hemisphere opposition than they do for their clubs. He's generally failed to get that same level of performance out of Welsh player vs SH teams, so has a big question mark over his coaching style that could be addressed by Super Rugby success.

Yes Pete that's true so how do you think he would go with say the Chiefs, Highlanders etc?

How much of his inability to win is due to relative player strengths and therefore a necessity to play to a certain formula where given a NZ side that would currently beat just about every oz and SA side and be on or near par internally?

There are aspects he would certainly excel at...fronting the media, introduce the best of the NH ideas, things we may not have heard of or are familiar with. Handle pressure situations...whether he makes the right decisions is another thing but he would certainly be decisive.

I could see him going straight onto the panel, not as head coach but he probably has more immediate value from an international perspective than Super rugby. Overseas contacts, knowledge of the NH sides etc. He could learn the NZ way with the ABs. I'm not sure coaching a successful Super side is a must...but I could be wrong. If say Hansen went and Fozziecstepped up I could see him being useful there for example. Besides, our Super sides are full. All with new or already successful coaches.

Silly question as I've forgotten, who's replacing Rennie & Brown at Chiefs/Highlanders next season?

You're right that Gats could work as ABs forwards' coach under Fozzie - good Waikato links there.

Gwlad wrote:

Taylorman wrote:When you're only putting up one coach, simply because he's coached the country you live in or support it's hardly good analysis.

Have you made a comparison with the other potential candidates? I haven't seen any. There are a number of good coaches around that are spoken of as much more likely than Gatland so there's also a touch of arrogance don't you think, a very narrow view.

One thing that will go against him is that he's adopted the same approach, same gameplans, more or less the same players in his efforts to beat the SH countries yet lost just about every occasion.

That suggests a myopic approach, an unwillingness to adopt different strategies.

One thing we know for certain for instance is that the gameplan the Lions will adopt will be typical of his Welsh gameplan, one that isn't very effective and is incredibly predictable.

We know that because he knows no other way and to take that on now would be to take something on he knows little about, so he'll be out of his comfort zone, and that's something he definitely won't want in NZ.

He's the wrong coach for this tour, simple as that.

He's the only coach that could have lead the Lions right now because he IS the Lions coach. And he will lead NZ one day, and I hope when he does you'll put your pettiness behind and get behind your countryman.
I suggest you watch the start of the first test last year before talking about a Welsh gameplan and predictability. What is predictable is that NZ go into every game thinking they have their opposition's number and that is their weakness. Most two eyed fans knew that the result of that game flattered to deceive. And Ireland properly finished the job. NZ are ripe for the taking and IMO all these assumptions that you know what's coming might just be your undoing. You are about to face the strongest line squad for over 30 years. Buckle up.

 When have we ever been petty and not got behind one of our countrymen and appointed one as the coach of the All Blacks? FFS its our national team.

 What we do strive to do is appoint the best man for the job, to the job, pretty simple really.

aucklandlaurie wrote:

Gwlad wrote:

Taylorman wrote:When you're only putting up one coach, simply because he's coached the country you live in or support it's hardly good analysis.

Have you made a comparison with the other potential candidates? I haven't seen any. There are a number of good coaches around that are spoken of as much more likely than Gatland so there's also a touch of arrogance don't you think, a very narrow view.

One thing that will go against him is that he's adopted the same approach, same gameplans, more or less the same players in his efforts to beat the SH countries yet lost just about every occasion.

That suggests a myopic approach, an unwillingness to adopt different strategies.

One thing we know for certain for instance is that the gameplan the Lions will adopt will be typical of his Welsh gameplan, one that isn't very effective and is incredibly predictable.

We know that because he knows no other way and to take that on now would be to take something on he knows little about, so he'll be out of his comfort zone, and that's something he definitely won't want in NZ.

He's the wrong coach for this tour, simple as that.

He's the only coach that could have lead the Lions right now because he IS the Lions coach. And he will lead NZ one day, and I hope when he does you'll put your pettiness behind and get behind your countryman.
I suggest you watch the start of the first test last year before talking about a Welsh gameplan and predictability. What is predictable is that NZ go into every game thinking they have their opposition's number and that is their weakness. Most two eyed fans knew that the result of that game flattered to deceive. And Ireland properly finished the job. NZ are ripe for the taking and IMO all these assumptions that you know what's coming might just be your undoing. You are about to face the strongest line squad for over 30 years. Buckle up.

 When have we ever been petty and not got behind one of our countrymen and appointed one as the coach of the All Blacks? FFS its our national team.

 What we do strive to do is appoint the best man for the job, to the job, pretty simple really.

And the last two were made in Wales.

Gwlad wrote:

aucklandlaurie wrote:

Gwlad wrote:

Taylorman wrote:When you're only putting up one coach, simply because he's coached the country you live in or support it's hardly good analysis.

Have you made a comparison with the other potential candidates? I haven't seen any. There are a number of good coaches around that are spoken of as much more likely than Gatland so there's also a touch of arrogance don't you think, a very narrow view.

One thing that will go against him is that he's adopted the same approach, same gameplans, more or less the same players in his efforts to beat the SH countries yet lost just about every occasion.

That suggests a myopic approach, an unwillingness to adopt different strategies.

One thing we know for certain for instance is that the gameplan the Lions will adopt will be typical of his Welsh gameplan, one that isn't very effective and is incredibly predictable.

We know that because he knows no other way and to take that on now would be to take something on he knows little about, so he'll be out of his comfort zone, and that's something he definitely won't want in NZ.

He's the wrong coach for this tour, simple as that.

He's the only coach that could have lead the Lions right now because he IS the Lions coach. And he will lead NZ one day, and I hope when he does you'll put your pettiness behind and get behind your countryman.
I suggest you watch the start of the first test last year before talking about a Welsh gameplan and predictability. What is predictable is that NZ go into every game thinking they have their opposition's number and that is their weakness. Most two eyed fans knew that the result of that game flattered to deceive. And Ireland properly finished the job. NZ are ripe for the taking and IMO all these assumptions that you know what's coming might just be your undoing. You are about to face the strongest line squad for over 30 years. Buckle up.

 When have we ever been petty and not got behind one of our countrymen and appointed one as the coach of the All Blacks? FFS its our national team.

 What we do strive to do is appoint the best man for the job, to the job, pretty simple really.

And the last two were made in Wales.

 If Wales are so brilliant at making coaches then how come they dont make some for Welsh coaches?

You should just be grateful that both your pro RWC winning coaches cut their teeth in Wales.

Sir Brian aside it seems odd that home grown and trained coaches couldn't bring it home in 1991, 1995, 1999, 2003 but by 2007 GH was in charge and after his Wales experience he got close before getting it right in 2011 and then in 2015 SH followed suit.

A hardly seems adequate.

Gwlad wrote:You should just be grateful that both your pro RWC winning coaches cut their teeth in Wales.

Sir Brian aside it seems odd that home grown and trained coaches couldn't bring it home in 1991, 1995, 1999, 2003 but by 2007 GH was in charge and after his Wales experience he got close before getting it right in 2011 and then in 2015 SH followed suit.

Really? And what did Wales give Hansen other than a completely losing team?

It took 10 years to undo the damage as assistant to Henry before he was able to take the reigns. And is it Ireland that has provided Wales Gatlands abilities or for some reason does your stupid theory not apply there? Or did Wales corrects his faults as well?

Gats is a work in progress.

It may seem a stupid theory to you but facts are facts and the fact is that your two RWC coaches only ever coached one other national side before NZ and that was Wales. And another NZ coach of the future has been coaching Wales for years; clearly the coaches see the value of it even if you don't!

Oh well, you go on believing that while oddly, nobody else does. At least it's a unique theory, so perhaps not a very useful one.

I will. Henry, Hansen and Gats. Quite a little school we're running for you to learn international coaching abroad before returning to NZ to cash in. But NZ does like to outs source it's rugby personnel from all over the place.

Gwlad is like a dog howling at the moon

No, I feel more like a dog curling one out on Hansen's office carpet.

You'd only have your nose rubbed in it

ebop wrote:You'd only have your nose rubbed in it

Small price to pay

lol, fair enough if you're into that

Gats is still coaching turn of the century rugby.

We get it Gwlad - Welsh rugby and Gats can do not wrong and just from visiting the place, people get magical rugby powers...


We have the same, it is called Ayr.

Hansen, Henry and Gatland in their own right are all top International coaches, but what is consistent throughout their careers is that Wales were bloody useless.

Gwlad wrote:No, I feel more like a dog curling one out on Hansen's office carpet.

Why would you write that?

aucklandlaurie wrote:Hansen, Henry and Gatland in their own right are all top International coaches, but what is consistent throughout their careers is that Wales were bloody useless.

You really are ignorant

Gatland is the NH most successful coach with Wales winning the GS 3 x under his leadership

Hansen and Henry were awful coaches with Wales and the Lions, its true

Gwlad wrote:

aucklandlaurie wrote:Hansen, Henry and Gatland in their own right are all top International coaches, but what is consistent throughout their careers is that Wales were bloody useless.

You really are ignorant

Gatland is the NH most successful coach with Wales winning the GS 3 x under his leadership

Twice.

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:

Gwlad wrote:

aucklandlaurie wrote:Hansen, Henry and Gatland in their own right are all top International coaches, but what is consistent throughout their careers is that Wales were bloody useless.

You really are ignorant

Gatland is the NH most successful coach with Wales winning the GS 3 x under his leadership

Twice.

Howley is his puppet, Gats was in charge.

Mike ruddock?

Gwlad wrote:

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:

Gwlad wrote:

aucklandlaurie wrote:Hansen, Henry and Gatland in their own right are all top International coaches, but what is consistent throughout their careers is that Wales were bloody useless.

You really are ignorant

Gatland is the NH most successful coach with Wales winning the GS 3 x under his leadership

Twice.

Howley is his puppet, Gats was in charge.

Still wasn't a Grand Slam.

Good as, 30-3 ouch. Now that really is a grand slam.

See Hansen has come out with the excuses why Ireland beat NZ being the absence of this 3 top locks. And in true NZ style he makes no reference to how well Ireland played, its just about the absence of the locks and NZ played badly.

Hubris piled on hubris.

Gwlad wrote:Good as, 30-3 ouch. Now that really is a grand slam.

Righto.