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Interesting draw.

Murray v Fognini round 2
Dimitrov v Del Potro round 1
Djokovic v Kyrgios round 3

Murray/Stan in top half. Djokovic/Nadal in bottom half.
Projected qf
Murray v Raonic
Stan v Cilic
Nadal v Thiem
Djokovic v Nishikori

Ragas main adapting method is to move his court position and start to hit dtl much more with aggression 
He does go to the slice if it's real desperate straight 

It's far more than just hit harder

Novak mumbling bout the wind 

This ain't good...

Good start from Zverev. Can he serve it out?

Wow. 

Didn't see this coming. Maybe it WAS just noles opposition. Any pressure and he can't play. 

Very good from zverev though.

Wow. No nerves. That was a solid hold.

temporary21 wrote:Maybe it WAS just noles opposition. Any pressure and he can't play. 

Ha!  I don't think so though.  Novak did play better yesterday.  But I do think, as I said before, that Thiem was also very poor and did not put him under much pressure.

Rafa in 2015-16 was also not unlike that.  Occasionally he would have a great match or two, only to fall back to poorer form after.  It remains to be seen if Novak of yesterday was a one-off or if he can reproduce it with some consistency.

Hmm. 
Novak is gonna have to attack. Zvetev has the time to pick holes in him, and is

Well he's got two sets to find his yesterday's form.

AGASSI! that's his new coach apparently. Bit of a coup

Tough road for Djokovic to travel, if the wants to win this final.

temporary21 wrote:AGASSI! that's his new coach apparently. Bit of a coup

Are the rumors confirmed?

Erm. I only just heard this myself. Don't think it's confirmed by the man

Sky Italy source. Gaining a lot of traction

Just when I thought Djokovic was showing a return to form again after Del potro and Thiem matches and now playing useless again. So tentative and why is his serve so slow these days??!!

Zverev breaks with some impressive play again.

This could be a piece of history. Zverev by far the better player so far

zverev in fairness having to do nothing. Djokovic 0-15 there, then puts an inexplicable backhand over the baseline and then follows up with a 2nd server return over the baseline. Just unbelievably poor

He is bullying Novak though. Seems to be the magic formula to rip Novak at the seams

Oh no arguments over marks. Keep your concentration dude

Djokovic struggling to hold while Zverev holds much more easily. But, as long as Nole keeps it down to one break, he can still turn it around.

Christ is he hurt?

not even making zverev sweat on his service games which is so unlike the real djokovic. Its not like he is playing Isner or Karlovic here

Tough point 

 Nothing on the 2nd serve at all

Nole barely holding, but he does.  Still in it.

Zverev looks pretty good today, but I have to say I do not exactly find his game exciting to watch.

Touching his lower side 

Not that it matters the way zverev is playing

another pathetic return game. a player of novaks experience should be putting pressure on zverev at this stage in the match. make him work for it at least

Top 10 for Sasha!

Big moment for tennis today 

a meek ending for Novak. That's a real step back

pains me to say it but what an embarrassing performance from Djokovic. Really thought he had made progress on his way to the final and then throws in an utterly woeful effort.

a shadow of the player he once was

Wow.  That was never really close.

Commentators were saying that in the 90+ finals that Nole has played, this is only the third time he did not create a single BP (the other two being against Roger in Cincy where it is harder to generate BPs).

Yesterday we saw why Nole used to be #1. Today we saw why he no longer is.

Belovedluckyboy wrote:Exactly Haddie. It seems to me that Luvsports has not been watching Rafa's matches this clay season; all LS remembered, from the past I assumed, was Rafa hitting harder and harder with his topspin!  

I am still waiting for an explanation.
I personally don't think either are one dimensional but if you say Thiem is, i cannot see how he is any different.

This ascent of guys like Zverev and Thiem I think provides further argument for the view that the generation in-between was rather poor - i.e., that it is not just that it takes guys longer to mature these days.  Or else we should see Dimitrov, Raonic and Nishi winning Masters and not Zverev.

Theim does not vary his court position as much. He also doesn't finish at the net as much

Well they are hitting the 4 freaks on the way down (ish) which helps 

He was too much today though

impressive Italian that Novak is speaking! how many languages does that guy speak. I recall he spoke great French at the French open last year too.

temporary21 wrote:Well they are hitting the 4 freaks on the way down (ish) which helps

Sure, but why is it not Nishi etc that are benefiting?  If guys need to wait until their mid 20s to fully develop, it is them who should be taking over now, not Zverev/Thiem/Kyrgios.

Well none of them have played that well in a big final  I guess

They're taken too many beatings from the big guns when they were at their best

They still COULD benefit by the by

temporary21 wrote:They still COULD benefit by the by

Fair enough. We will see.

summerblues wrote:Yesterday we saw why Nole used to be #1.  Today we saw why he no longer is.

Yesterday he was playing someone who was no match for him ... today he had opposition... simple.

Well done Zverev

He joins Thiem in the Top 10, and finally - it's been a long, long, wait ! - we have two 'youngsters' (though neither are teenagers, like in times past .....) who look equipped to change the tennis landscape over the next few years.

But just how soon they do so will depend in no small measure on how much longer the old guard can continue to a) make their way through to big Finals, and b) pose a serious threat once they're there.

LS, Thiem basically stays at the baseline all the time; on the rare occasions he came forward to the net, he would lose the point as often as he wins it. Watch Rafa these days, he ventures to the net to shorten points, wins most of the points there, hitting some good volleys. He hardly needs to grind even on clay these days. Rafa's game is not about hard hitting, it's about finding weaknesses in his opponents' games and attacking them, and counter punching against his opponents' attacks.

Thiem is a hard hitting attacking player, not unlike Stan and they both hit hard from the baseline, but Stan does venture to the net (with more successes than Thiem) more often, comparatively.

Congratulations to Zverev on his maiden Masters.

Will Djokovic have a new coach before RG?

Well done Zverev for his maiden masters win.  It is interesting that it is the under 24's that seem to be capitalising in the weakening hold of the "top four/five"  and not the 25 - 30 year olds.

Reading back over the comments it seems that Belovedluckyboy was near to the truth as to what was happening with his careful observations of the various match-up in styles etc.

How can you say the weakening hold of the top four/five when Nadal has just won 3 out of 4 of the last clay tournaments... ?? True Thiem hit a purple patch when he has just beaten Nadal but one swallow does not make a summer ..Ive seen little weakening in Federer and the young guns will have to do more than win one masters to prove that the top boys are finished.

Weakening. In the sense of a tiny crack. They're still the boss for now

Congrats to Zverev. He reminded me so much of young Delpo, hitting with easy power from both wings, but he comes with a bigger and better serve, better foot speed and can change direction of his shots at will. He like Delpo, is able to keep his mind focused and stays calm at crucial moments, very impressive.

Haddie-nuff wrote:How can you say the weakening hold of the top four/five when Nadal has just won 3 out of 4 of the last clay tournaments... ??  True Thiem hit a purple patch when he has just beaten Nadal but one swallow does not make a summer ..Ive seen little weakening in Federer and the young guns will have to do more than win one masters to prove that the top boys are finished.

The collective that is "Djokovic + Murray + Nadal + Federer + Wawrinka" are not as good as they were in their prime.  In their prime they pretty much stoppered up the semi-finals in tournaments they entered.  Nowadays there are chinks all over the place allowing other players to step to the mark to reach quarter-finals, semi-finals, finals and win them.  It is the under-24 generation that appear to be stepping up to the mark and it seems they will take over in due course.

There just seems to be a gap between the over 30s and the under-24s (Djokovic turns 30 tomorrow).  A sort of missing generation that have failed to impress. Raonic at 26 has tried hard to bridge the gap and has done well on the grass and hard courts.

Well sorry, but I think it pretty obvious that the younger ones will take over in due course, but we still have Nadal and Federer playing near to the top of their games and it will take more than beating Rafa once, and winning  one Masters, to convince me that there is not life in the old dogs yet. Sure the younger ones have seen it can be done. and all cfredit to Zverev . but when you have someone like Thiem who played the match of his life against Nadal and then play like a qualifier against an out of form No. 2. seed yesterday it is going to take a little more than just tennis skills. Ive yet to see the makings of another Federer or Nadal in the pipeline.. and I daresay I never will.. I can only live in hope.

No name Bertie wrote:

............................

The collective that is "Djokovic + Murray + Nadal + Federer + Wawrinka" are not as good as they were in their prime.  In their prime they pretty much stoppered up the semi-finals in tournaments they entered.  Nowadays there are chinks all over the place allowing other players to step to the mark to reach quarter-finals, semi-finals, finals and win them.  It is the under-24 generation that appear to be stepping up to the mark and it seems they will take over in due course.

There just seems to be a gap between the over 30s and the under-24s (Djokovic turns 30 tomorrow).  A sort of missing generation that have failed to impress.

Sure ...... nobody would claim that these guys are as good as when in their prime - although in the case of Stan (and, to a lesser extent, Murray) the first big successes actually came at an age when when players 'traditionally' begin to wind down.

Good though it is to see such a young Masters winner, along with much promise also from Thiem, Haddie-nuff is right to sound a note of caution as to any idea that the old boys are done with.

Five MS 1000 and one Slam have been contested so far this season. And the reality is that all but one of those top tier titles have been shared between two guys who occupied the top two ranking spots as far back as 2005 : Roger Federer & Rafael Nadal.

Haddie-nuff wrote:... we still have Nadal and Federer playing near to the top of their games ...

Compared to their primes?  They are still good enough to win as they have already shown but I say they are not as good as they are in their prime.  Others may disagree.  What I am saying is that as they weaken with age, mileage, injury others will eventually compete with them and later take over.  It seems to me it is the younger generation that will do this and that there is a "missing generation" between the two.  I am not making the claim that the younger generation will ever compare to the top four (or at least to Federer, Nadal, Djokovic) comparing prime with prime.