Glasgow and Edinburgh: Ongoing Banter Thread 17 - Almost Legal

[Hazel Sapling]

First topic message reminder :



Glasgow Warriors & Edinburgh

The Histories:

Guiness Pro 12
Edinburgh Rugby
Glasgow Warriors

Edinburgh Rugby Highlights 2016/2017
Glasgow Warriors Pro 12 Highlights 2016/2017  

[RDW]

http://m.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/40764024

Interesting - I'm not really sure of the point of this...

[BigGee]

http://m.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/40764024

Interesting - I'm not really sure of the point of this...

This was mooted a few years ago, but did not progress as the clubs were not that keen on it.

In theory it is a good idea, but it is likely to run into the same problems, mainly which clubs would become semi-pro supported ones and which not and how, if at all, do you deal with issues around promotion and relegation.

With the academies starting to put out more decent players now, it would in many ways make more sense to try and concentrate them with certain teams, it may also provide more bonds between allocated semi pro teams and their fully pro big brothers.

I expect there is still a lot of work to do though to make it happen. Dobson does have a bit of credit in the bank just now and perhaps there may be no time as good as the present.

[A Simply Mesmeric Try]

http://m.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/40764024

Interesting - I'm not really sure of the point of this...

The original plan a few years back was to convert existing clubs into Semi Pro and some clubs were keen to step up, like Ayr, Heriots and Currie - yet most of the others were not, who put their collective foot down, so nothing came of it.

If this happens, I think they'll end up having 2 teams each in the Glasgow and Edinburgh regions and 1 each in the South and North.

I think this needs to happen. The gap between amateur rugby and professional is huge and ever-growing. We could renew our participation in the B&I Cup, which the current Scottish teams were too under equipped to deal with, which is why they left the competition.

Benefits:
The fringe pros and the academy players will have a higher level to play at and aren't playing against amateurs week in, week out.
Pros returning from injury return at a higher level.
Duel-contracts instead of player drafts.
B&I Cup participation

Drawbacks:
££££££££££ - This won't be cheap. Outside investment will be essential.
Could take supporter attendance away from local amateur rugby.

For the love of rugby, they NEED to get the locations of these new clubs right. Rather than competing for crowds with a local Prem club, they should go somewhere new and create a rugby culture.
As Glasgow Warriors have shown, it can be easier to create a culture, rather than to change a culture. The Border Reivers was the other side of that coin.

[RDW]

I'm not sure I agree the clubs should by a brand new identity - people follow pro teams because it is (supposedly) top level rugby in their city. People follow their clubs because it's their local area, where they went to school etc. And have an emotional tie to.

If you make a brand new semi pro entity no one will give a crap about it! Plus they would need to play on one of the club grounds anyway

[George Carlin]

Agree with the Hulk (green) above. 

It comes down to quite a large conceptual judgement call - do you develop some players (in Glasgow and Edinburgh) a lot or do you spread the cash more thinly and to a wider pool of players in the hope that more talent comes through. It's not clear which is best. 

In a way, it's a natural extension of what the academies do, except at club level. I agree that I don't think creating new artificial teams is the way forward - Reivers proved that this does not work. You are better off picking 6 teams from the Prem with consistent gate attendances and reasonable supporting infrastructure and using those. 

A semi professional Ayr franchise would only seek to make them better than World Class, however. I'd be searching my thesaurus for other things to call the Mighty Mazongas of Milbrae. #FirstWorldProblem

[jimbopip]

Another way of looking at it is.....

Glasgow and the Luvvies regularly send players to amateur clubs as part of their rehab from injury or just to maintain match fitness levels. The idea of someone just a couple of notches above you or me lining up on the wing and seeing Jean-Paul Sarto grinning at him is one thing....but a front row which plods up to the first scrum to see Shrek and WeePee leering at them is quite another.

In one case you might spend 80 minutes chasing shadows and in the other you could be seriously injured.

The pro sides need somewhere to ensure their squad players play meaningful rugby; the club sides need to raise the level of their game.

Semi-pro sides seem the obvious next step, but can the local economy support it?

If I was smart enough to answer that I could get a job as a fund manager looking after University Pension Funds.

[RDW]

Aye Jimbo there's certainly no doubting the need for it. I'm not sure whether £100k a year and 6 super clubs will be enough or sustainable.

[jimbopip]

Sadly, at a local level it must eventually come down to population.
If you had £100k to invest in a semi-pro side in leafy Richmond you could probably attract enough in the way of crowds/membership/sponsors to make a go of it. Could you do the same in Kilmarnock or Alloa?

[MacKnocked-on]

According to the Sunday Times, Glasgow are looking to sign NZ 7s player Kurt Baker as cover for the injured Hogg.

On the subject of the semi-pro teams and locations I guess Dundee, Perth and Aberdeen are good possibilities. Dundee obviously has Dundee High FPs, Aberdeen have Grammar FPs and Perth has Perthshire playing at a lower level. Would any of these clubs consider applying for a franchise?

[George Carlin]

According to the Sunday Times, Glasgow are looking to sign NZ 7s player Kurt Baker as cover for the injured Hogg.

He's contracted to Zebre at the moment but never seems to have played for them. What gives? Was he out all year playing Sevens? 

I see he's got the AP to match Hogg, at least. He'll fit in well at Glasgow. 

[Margin_Walker]

Edit - Wrong thread

[Hazel Sapling]

It is needed and the amount of players being produced need a level where late bloomers can develop more effectively. As for locations, I think they should put 1 semi-pro next to each of the academies so that they can call up players when injuries strike and raise the standard of training.

Aberdeen, Edinburgh, Cumbernauld and Galashiels should be nailed on for the academies. Dundee is a large population center and has Glasgow-esque potential (It is a football town right?)

Perth, Inverness, Kilmarnock and Ayr are the other options in my mind. Inverness may too hard with weather/travel though. Would Dumfries have any potential?

[tigertattie]

Jimbo just came up with an inspirational solution to the issue!

Do what the Yanks do and implement a "college" league!

Use the semi pro money to offer scholarships or pay to play funding for players in the Universities!

Edinburgh, Glasgow, Aberdeen, Dundee, Stirling, Heriot Watt (also encompasses the borders?)

Have we found the solution?

[EWT Spoons]

It’s a promising idea, but I can’t see it working.

There are unlikely to be enough uni places to give out to these players (assuming they have the grades) as well as accommodating normal students.  Also can we afford to write off a number of players who may not have the grades or are pursuing other schemes (apprenticeships etc).

It’s a nice idea, but I think it works in the US because of the size of campuses, plus the colleges get well recompensed for college sports, as there is a huge fanbase (unlikely in Scottish Unis) plus I think the television and sponsorship deals are very good.  Again considering the 2 pro teams don’t exactly pull in the tv audiences I can’t see a semi pro uni team doing much better.

[tigertattie]

It would work two fold though.

We couldn't turn our backs on players who didn't have the grades as 1. That would be snobbish 2. Scottish Rugby can't afford to turn its back on any promising player

What we need to remember is that this is a semi pro league and anyone playing in it is going to have to have an alternative job or be studying something. The program would need to be used not only to get players into this semi pro league, but also prepare them for when their rugby careers (or potential careers) come to an end. Not doing so would be irresponsible.

I'd see guys in here either working part time or studying or doing apprenticeships which would be run through the Uni.

Ultimately, many of the guys in this league aren't going to make the step up to full pro as they'd already be on the Glasgow or Edinburgh radar if they were decent enough!

[George Carlin]

Jimbo just came up with an inspirational solution to the issue!

Do what the Yanks do and implement a "college" league!

Use the semi pro money to offer scholarships or pay to play funding for players in the Universities!

Edinburgh, Glasgow, Aberdeen, Dundee, Stirling, Heriot Watt (also encompasses the borders?)

Have we found the solution?

If it involves cheerleaders, I'm right behind it.

[jimbopip]

Jimbo just came up with an inspirational solution to the issue!

Do what the Yanks do and implement a "college" league!

Use the semi pro money to offer scholarships or pay to play funding for players in the Universities!

Edinburgh, Glasgow, Aberdeen, Dundee, Stirling, Heriot Watt (also encompasses the borders?)

Have we found the solution?

If it involves cheerleaders, I'm right behind it.

If I've stopped us talking about dragons, castration, dwarves and the merits of Khaleesi's topless scenes...I'm sorry.

[tigertattie]

Jimbo just came up with an inspirational solution to the issue!

Do what the Yanks do and implement a "college" league!

Use the semi pro money to offer scholarships or pay to play funding for players in the Universities!

Edinburgh, Glasgow, Aberdeen, Dundee, Stirling, Heriot Watt (also encompasses the borders?)

Have we found the solution?

If it involves cheerleaders, I'm right behind it.

If I've stopped us talking about dragons, castration, dwarves and the merits of Khaleesi's topless scenes...I'm sorry.

Well, to be honest, you never actually came up with the idea! You inspired me with your "University pensions fund" comment!

But don't worry, it's on again tonight so tomorrow we shall be talking about lack of nuts and discussing her royal dragoness's nips!

[George Carlin]

I don't watch GoT. I refuse to invest the time when I can just watch the Battle of B*stards on YouTube whenever I want.

Besides, as Ian McShane said: "Game of Thrones? That's all just t!ts and dragons".

[reallybored]

What are the injuries looking like for the two team?

Hogg (shoulder - june - 6 months)
Gray (wrist - june - 6 months)
Jones (hamstring - march - 5 months)
Brown  (ankle - july - 4 months)

Bennett (april - 9/12 months)
Dickinson (foot - march - ? )
Sutherland (groin - ?)
VD Merwe (knee - ?)

Anyone else?

[tigertattie]

What are the injuries looking like for the two team?

Hogg (shoulder - june - 6 months)
Gray (wrist - june - 6 months)
Jones (hamstring - march - 5 months)
Brown  (ankle - july - 4 months)

Bennett (april - 9/12 months)
Dickinson (foot - march - ? )
Sutherland (groin - ?)
VD Merwe (knee - ?)

Anyone else?

Bennett hurt his April?

[RDW]

And Bennett actually injured his April in March.

[George Carlin]

And Bennett actually injured his April in March.

[A Simply Mesmeric Try]

I'm not sure I agree the clubs should by a brand new identity - people follow pro teams because it is (supposedly) top level rugby in their city. People follow their clubs because it's their local area, where they went to school etc. And have an emotional tie to.

If you make a brand new semi pro entity no one will give a crap about it! Plus they would need to play on one of the club grounds anyway

I was meaning that new clubs could be "created" i.e. re-branded or whatever, where there is no established (decent) local rugby. Aberdeen has rugby clubs, but if one them was re-branded and placed in a more competitive environment with a better possibility of fans watching international players, there would be a demand for that.

It's all about location, location, location. They cannot put a club where it will take away local support for local rugby. Again, the Border Reivers provide a prime example. Why go see the the Reivers on a Friday when [insert favourite Borders teams here] are playing on Saturday. Also, ground-sharing with Gala did them no favours.

I've read that Ayr and Heriots want to move up a level. Edinburgh Accies also want to move up but considering the nonsense they've had to deal with in Stockbridge with their new ground, I think they'll have difficulty moving away from the amateur level.

Click to reveal Edinburgh Accies' Stockbridge Nonsense:

As for the Borders, I have no clue which clubs would or could go semi-pro. There's such a strong rivalry between the Borders towns that it would be a shame to split them up.

If this goes ahead, my money is on Heriots, Currie, Glasgow Hawks and Ayr going semi-pro, and 2 new clubs will be created/re-branded in Aberdeen and Perth or Stirling.

Outside of Edinburgh and Glasgow, where would folks like to see "new" teams?

[tigertattie]

Another episode where her royal dragoness didn't provide any papage

Luckily Cercei was on hand this time round or I'd start refusing to watch!

However, I did get a good giggle at Danny and Jon's meeting

"You stand in the presence of Queen Daenerys Stormborn Targaryen , The Unburnt, Queen of the Andals, the Rhoynar and the First Men, Queen of Meereen, Khaleesi of the Great Grass Sea, Breaker of Chains, Mother of Dragons"

"ehhh, this is Jon Snow"

[RDW]

The Guiness Pro 14 is here!

https://twitter.com/PRO12rugby

[RDW]

Scottish Rugby has been instrumental in driving forward the development of the Guinness PRO12 and is therefore pleased this ambitious expansion is now a reality.

To bring two quality teams from South Africa into a competition which is already one of the most competitive and attractive in the world game will raise playing standards, create unique matches, develop all the teams involved and generate additional revenue across each of the participating nations.

The ambition is to create the world’s top club competition and today’s announcement is a significant step in that direction. We now look forward to welcoming the Southern Kings and Toyota Cheetahs to Edinburgh, Glasgow and Scotland this season.

[tigertattie]

Sooooo (away from the dragon talk)

What does this mean for Edinburgh winning back the cup from the unwashed?

[RDW]

Edinburgh and Glasgow will still play each other 3 times over the course of the season.

You play everyone in your conference twice, then those in the other conference once, then 2 additional games (i.e. the 1872). I'm assuming each season you will alternate between home/away for the games against the other conference.

This really isn't going to be a clear league to follow may not be fair given that different teams will have different fixtures over the course of the season.

[George Carlin]

Edinburgh and Glasgow will still play each other 3 times over the course of the season.

You play everyone in your conference twice, then those in the other conference once, then 2 additional games (i.e. the 1872). I'm assuming each season you will alternate between home/away for the games against the other conference.

This really isn't going to be a clear league to follow may not be fair given that different teams will have different fixtures over the course of the season.

Confused? You will be.

[Hazel Sapling]

Edinburgh and Glasgow will still play each other 3 times over the course of the season.

You play everyone in your conference twice, then those in the other conference once, then 2 additional games (i.e. the 1872). I'm assuming each season you will alternate between home/away for the games against the other conference.

This really isn't going to be a clear league to follow may not be fair given that different teams will have different fixtures over the course of the season.

Confused? You will be.

So how did they decide which side gets 11 home games? Is it the higher ranked side gets the benefit of the extra home game or will the derby games take place at National stadiums once a season to get 10 home/away and 1 neutral?

They did say the conferences will swap over year to year depending on finishing spot. Will it change again next season....?

[RDW]

Well Edinburgh have confirmed they have 11 home games

[George Carlin]

More importantly, Edinburgh had better copyright the moniker 'the only cheaters in the Pro14' before the other Cheetahs do it.
( )

[RDW]

European qualification makes it interesting - Edinburgh and Glasgow will have to come in the top 3 in their conferences to be guaranteed Champions Cup rugby (not including the SA teams), with whichever 4th place team from both conferences has the highest points also qualifying. Looking at the conferences we could potentially not have either team in the Champions Cup the season after next as Glasgow are a team in transition and Edinburgh are, well, Edinburgh!

The two South African sides are not eligible for the Champions Cup at the moment.

The top three non-South African clubs from each conference will qualify for the Champions Cup, while the non-South African team with the highest points total outside of those six teams across both conferences will claim the final Champions Cup place.

The other five European sides will go into the Challenge Cup.

[Hazel Sapling]

European qualification makes it interesting - Edinburgh and Glasgow will have to come in the top 3 in their conferences to be guaranteed Champions Cup rugby (not including the SA teams), with whichever 4th place team from both conferences has the highest points also qualifying. Looking at the conferences we could potentially not have either team in the Champions Cup the season after next as Glasgow are a team in transition and Edinburgh are, well, Edinburgh!

The two South African sides are not eligible for the Champions Cup at the moment.

The top three non-South African clubs from each conference will qualify for the Champions Cup, while the non-South African team with the highest points total outside of those six teams across both conferences will claim the final Champions Cup place.

The other five European sides will go into the Challenge Cup.

Glasgow are at more risk than Edinburgh with how the groups are split. Scarlets and Leinster are locks in Group B. Due to Ulster losing Pienaar, Jackson and Olding for varying reasons they could easily fall back. They look awfully thin at lock if Henderson or Tredwell are injured for any extended time and they may now have the worst half backs in the Pro 14 with only Cooney being of any note (born in Scotland according to Wiki).

Munster look solid, Ospreys are usually around the top 4, Cardiff are competitive and Connacht could go in any direction after the terrible injury luck and player/coaching drain of the last couple of seasons. I think Glasgow should still be ok and less games will suit them if they are losing 3 games over the course of the international breaks or have a late start to the season.

[jimbopip]

Well. the way I see it is if The Once And Future Champions finish above Kaaahdiff and the Craggy Island seconds then we're in the Champions Cup (or whatever it may be called by then).
The Luvvies on the other hand need to finish above the Dragons, Benneton and the Kings to avoid being a complete laughing stock. Good luck with that, boys.

[George Carlin]

[jimbopip]

I notice that the bookies have The Once And Future Champs at 10/1 to win the Pro14.
Cheetahs 10/1
Kings 20/1

Interestingly Miss Jean Brodie's Sewing Circle are 125/1

[nickj]

Finlay Christie aint coming home any time soon http://www.planetrugby.com/news/christie-swaps-chiefs-for-hurricanes/

[RDW]

He's ginger of course!

[jimbopip]

Glasgow Warriors have just shared a video clip on Facebook; I'll save you looking.

"Hi Warriors nation! I'm Layla Massager and I'm looking forward to playing in....(looks round desperately at the airport arrivals board) Glasgow with the Warriors."

I've got a feeling he won't be setting Sky+ to record the entire series of University Challenge.

[EWT Spoons]

oh god, Edinburgh fans on facebook are up in arms again.

Club is running a park & ride scheme from murrayfield to myerside, but are charging extra for it. which is fair enough I guess, but wow it has not gone down well.

[BigGee]

The SRU annual report released today ahead of the AGM. It makes pretty good reading, both on and off the pitch. A record turnover of over £50 million and debt down by another £3million or so, it will be gone completely in a few years at this rate.

On the field good seasons for Scotland, the U20's, the Sevens team and the women team. Over 100,00 fans came in to see Glasgow play over the season, which is pretty impressive. It is a shame that it is just Edinburgh letting the side down!

Dobo and co at the SRU seem to be doing a pretty decent job all in all. Dare we say it as well, the rugby side of things seems to be doing not so badly with Scott Johnson at the helm as well! We don't see or hear much about him now, but something seems to be working well in his department.

Maybe he was just better suited to that sort of role all along?

[George Carlin]

The McBumferties are going ahead with semi-pro:

Scottish Rugby unveils new league structure at AGM
Scottish Rugby unveiled a new strategy and league structure for all rugby clubs in Scotland at its AGM at BT Murrayfield today (Saturday 5 August).

A new top tier of the domestic game will be created for the 2019/20 season, entitled "Super Six", which will be semi-professional and work to close the gap between the club game and professional teams in Scotland.

The move is being backed with £3.6million of new Scottish Rugby investment over five years reaching every club in Scotland.

All the Super Six teams will be overseen by Scottish Rugby's High Performance department which will allocate funding for head coaches, strength & conditioning and analysis support. Funding costs for squads of 35 players will be split between Scottish Rugby and the clubs, with teams playing a 20 match season.

A new 'Scottish Championship' of 12 teams will be created beneath Super Six alongside a new three division National League structure, all of which will contain wholly amateur teams.

With franchises in the Super Six running for five years at a time teams in the Scottish Championship and National Leagues can build stronger community ties and focus investment on developing their clubs in the absence of player payments.

Clubs can apply to join the Super Six tier and will be required to bring their own investment to the table to complement Scottish Rugby's financial support.

Geographically aligned
The teams will be geographically aligned with Scottish Rugby's four regions Caledonia, Glasgow & the West, Edinburgh & the East and The Borders, with two floating teams, and partnered with one of Scotland's two professional teams, either Glasgow Warriors or Edinburgh Rugby.

The National Leagues will be feeder clubs for Super Six teams in their region to ensure an upward flow of talent through the leagues to the top tiers.

Scottish Rugby Chief Executive Mark Dodson said: "It is a new beginning for our whole sport, not just the top clubs. It resets the ambitions of everybody and offers every club a fresh start."

"For the first time since the game went professional this strategy involves all the clubs in the success of our national team. We want to create strong sustainable clubs that can play at the level which best suits them and that they can choose.

"We wanted to create a clear pathway for players, coaches and officials, alongside closing the gap between our domestic game and the professional teams so we can maximise the resources we have and allow talented players to develop in good environments and fulfil their potential.

"We want to see clubs invest in their infrastructures and future growth so the National Leagues will have amateur status and the Super Six will be where player payments make better sense.

"This is not a radical plan, it is simply overdue and we look forward to working with all the clubs in Scotland to deliver this new structure for the wider benefit of the game at large."

Scottish Rugby President Rob Flockhart said: "Over the past two years we have been asked by clubs, at all levels, to find solutions for the reoccurring issues in our game. We have listened to that and I believe we have put forward a very exciting proposal which will positively impact every club in Scotland.

"I promised at the outset that I would review our domestic game and with the excellent support of the Executives, the Board and Council I believe we now have a clear pathway to follow for the years to come and I look forward to seeing the plan progress."

Scottish Rugby also unveiled a new-look Exiles programme at its Annual General Meeting.

SQ
A new Scottish Qualified (SQ) programme was announced which has a scouting network in place both in the UK and five other international rugby markets.

Wider player development will be complemented with performance links to London Scottish, Lille Metropole, Stade Nicois, North Harbour, Western Force and Stellenbosch Academy it was announced.

[EWT Spoons]

Think the Semi-Pro idea is a good plan. If we want to develop players ready to make the step up on a consistent basis then something needed done as the gap is just too big currently.

I get it won't be popular with some clubs/fans etc, but the SRU couldn't just leave it as it was and hope that some players are able to make the step up. This might not be the best option long term, but at least they are trying something. Leaving it as was, wasn't helping get players ready for the step up.

[RDW]

Bizarrely it sounds like fringe pro players won't be farmed out to any Super 6 teams, instead 5 A team games will be set up over a season.

http://www.scotsman.com/sport/rugby-union/sru-club-revamp-has-six-appeal-1-4523411

Doesn't make any sense to me - fringe pro players would help the standard of the league from the outset, and 5 A games just isn't enough over a whole season.

[BigGee]

Maybe with this proposed system, there will not be so many fringe pro players as there are now and this won't be so much of an issue.

Both Scottish Pro teams keep pretty large squads, some players within them, pretty much won't play at all unless there are exceptional circumstances. One of the reasons for this is that there is such a drop off to the domestic game that it is just not possible to bring players up from that level to fill in.

That may not be the same case with the semi pro league, especially if it is full of the academy kids and other hopefuls who may be much more prepared to step up.

If this league does what it is meant to, then potentially each pro squad could drop maybe 3 or 4 players, who would currently spend most of their season playing in the national leagues anyway.

[nickj]

Glasgow signing news coming within the hour according to twizzle. The Tongan man mountain or a new 15?

On the restructure, it looks they are trying to demarkate the Pro, Semi Pro and Amateur levels, on one hand that shuld be applauded, on the other I agree that 5 A games isn't enough. Someone like D'Arcy Graham needs game time

[jimbopip]

I've checked all my social media accounts and the answerphone....it isn't me they're signing.

Better be someone good then.

[RDW]

Glasgow signing news coming within the hour according to twizzle. The Tongan man mountain or a new 15?

On the restructure, it looks they are trying to demarkate the Pro, Semi Pro and Amateur levels, on one hand that shuld be applauded, on the other I agree that 5 A games isn't enough. Someone like D'Arcy Graham needs game time

He is the prime example of my concerns - he is signed as a full time pro with Edinburgh so according to Dodson he won't be playing with the Super 6. He's unlikely to get a lot of gametime this season so where is he going the play?

His choices are 5 A-team games or the level below the Super 6!

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